Could it be that your wife is so full of pride that she has to keep up her WW angry behavior...as though she has painted herself into a corner?

I think there is something to be said about shaking her foundation a bit to let the reality of what she is risking hit her.

The stuff you listed a few posts back about what you'd like to tell her...that she should leave... may help her out of the fog. Have you tried some of the 180 with your plan A?

I know when I was a bit younger I would get myself into a corner and it would take a special kind of reaction from my H to pull me out of it. I had my feelings of injustices that would lead to my being angry or using the silent treatment with my H and then I'd have too much pride to let it go and go back to being normal. But a part of me really wanted to go back to being normal. I want to believe that there is a part of your wife that wishes she could be the nice wife and mother she is capable of being. But she is trying to save face by maintaining her shrewish behavior.

Her touching your hand when you gave her coffee this morning is a ray of light. She needs oportunities to not want to keep up the energy it takes to maintain her prideful anger.

This pride exists to shield her ego and hide from the fact that she made a fool of herself having an A with OM (she also wouldn't want to acknowledge the pain she has caused you and the kids). It is too painful to face that her fantasy may be over. She wants to still believe it was all real....that it was them against the world.

None of it makes sense in the real world. She may need a dose of real world. I don't know if she will just snap out of it on her own.

BP,

you said:
Look, I still want you back, but I no longer need you back.

If you feel this way than this is huge. It took me over a year to come to this conclusion and I wish I had reached it earlier. I can remember saying this to my counselor and she just smiled and nodded her head in approval. I told my counselor this just after my wife said she wanted to come home (after a 3 month separation). My counselor asked if I wanted her to move back in. Of course my answer was yes but that I wanted to be sure so I asked her to wait a couple of week and see if she still felt that way.

I agree with Kiwi. There is a point when you have to let her know that this is not acceptable behaviour (spelled that way for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Damn the LB's.

My wife thought I was a week because I didn't show the emotion and yes, anger because of what was happening. I'm not saying freak out on her but let her know how you feel and why you feel it.

"Look, I still want you back, but I no longer need you back." That would be a good thing to end the conversation with.

God Bless

Doug

Trix, you articulate my own opinion. 'real world' exposure is tough tho'.

She just went to take my D for a haircut and only took her 'secret' phone with her. I txted her to see how long she would be as I was gonna make a pot of GOOD arabica coffee. She said 15 minutes.

I replied "I'll wait as coffee tastes better when she enjoyes it too."

She said thanks.

I then texted her ( after a reasonably civil day so far)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I pray we can fix this mess eventually you know. I don't NEED you back anymore but I really WANT u back 'cos I still luv U. Anyway...CU with coffee in a bit :-x </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No reply.

We'll se how that works. I am trying to introduce her to reality in small bites.

Thats true. I WANT her back, but I know me and the kids will be fine without her if necessary. I have gotten strong.

Thanks trix. X

D-rose, I deconstructed my feelings inprayer overnight., i really do feel that now.

I still love her despite everything , and it would BEST for all of us if she rejoined us in love BUT I can see a life for me and the kids without her if needs be.

I never knew the strength in me until I did seven weeks of Plan A.

I love her, I'd hurt without her for a while , but I wouldn't die, and I'd have my kids in a nicer place than our home WITH her in a bad mood all the time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said " its a pity I didn't have an A earlier,you're in good shape again "

I mean on the one hand its funny fog, right, but on the other it is dradfully disrespectful.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, Bob. You are too sensitized to read between the lines and understand what she told you. "Physical attractiveness" as a need is not the sole province of males.

She likes the "slimmer" you. Think about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I then texted her ( after a reasonably civil day so far)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I pray we can fix this mess eventually you know. I don't NEED you back anymore but I really WANT u back 'cos I still luv U. Anyway...CU with coffee in a bit :-x
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No reply.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Telling her this ONCE is enough. The message is clear. Repeating, especially by the "cold, indifferent, inflectionless" method of text messaging is a Love Buster and bordering on "rubbing her nose in it." She needs to know what you said, but having said it, you need to let the yeast work it's way through the dough.

God bless.

B,

Amazing huh, brah?

Same here when my wife left I was sad, not wrist-slittin' sad but sad none the less. The sky didn't fall and the sun kept coming up, life kept going on and it was comforting to know that I was joining it.

True it would be best for husband and wife to be together if both are willing. Do your part and God will do the rest.


I never knew the strength in me until I did seven weeks of Plan A.

And seven weeks from now you'll be even stronger.

God bless (some more)

Doug

FH, that sthe only time I told her. She is behaving strangely now she's home : Offered to get me wine; Complementing my new clothes; Giving me the remote for the TV. Unbelievable.

we;ll see. I will say nothing esle about this unless she askes. Maybe that was the only thing I needed ot tell her ?

incidentally I delberately used TXT to her affair phone. TXT was the main medium for their EA. WW uses it before actually talking most times.

She considers it intimate and immediate, rather than cold and inflectionless.

Well, that honest txt wasn't a LB. I'll sit on it for a while now. She knows how I feel.

* D-rose, I hope to be stronger, man. I need stronger. Bring on some stronger.

Thanks for your blessings and insight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ August 28, 2004, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Awsome!

I am praying for you guys.

Bob.
I've been following your journey with interest. I think that at this stage you thee s somthing that might help you. Have youi ever read the Wiener-Davis Divorce Busters 180 list?

Her theory is that if what your doing isn't working, change what you're doing. Hence, the 180 concept of doing the direct oppositeof what ever else you've been doing.

Now don't get the idea that what I'm suggesting is a license to LB. Far from it. Look, below is her list. Give it a read and see if following the suggested pattern is something that might be bettere for you right now:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore with her.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue…no matter how much you want to!
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back. Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will realize what they are missing.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.
27. Take care of you, (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. Its’ not always about you!
32. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”
34. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

ALL of these things will make you a much more attractive individual because it shows that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. And without her! More important, it will burst her little bubble; the one in which she believe that she can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM.

Good luck.
Coach

Coach i DID read that list 3 weeks ago and it led to me 'getting on with my life' back then. BUT I reread it now in my current context and you're right.

Getting on with my life, looking after me and taking back my responsibility for my own happiness from my WW has made me strong enough to imagine life without her if ncessary.

I will study the list. I will continue to behave as if i do not NEED her but I do WANT her.

Thats true, my actions will be consistent as I am not lying.

Thanks coach. Appreciated.

Bob,

I'll try to put this reasonably straightforward to you---and don't take these as an insult.

First off, you're not a poster child for Plan A. You're doing a reasonably good job, but I still see you behaving with many selfish demands and disrespectful judgements. Now---no one is perfect in Plan A. But I haven't really got a great idea of how your marriage got to this situation, except for you not spending time with your wife in her hobby (and that burned me too). What about DJ's and SD's---think you were guilty of them?

Seven weeks of Plan A, while hard, isn't abnormal. If I remember from your previous signature, you're on antidepressants. If you're not, go to the doctor. If you are---good---but make sure that they're working (and you don't seem depressed to me).

You're in a competition right now for your marriage---it's the Olympics. You're not necessarily competing against the OM (a unibrow shot-putter from the breakaway Russian republic of Kerplackistan); you're competing against yourself. A poster (brownhair?) sent you a zen story about a man taking care of a child---you're doing the same thing here. Is it heroic? Sure. But you reap a reward---you are doing right, and in doing so, you are rewarded even if no one recognizes your effort. I'd also caution you here---while you have a difficult task---it isn't so bad. You love your wife. You want your marriage. There's clear motivation for your actions.

Your wife has the much harder path here. She no longer loves you in the same way, and has a chemical addiction (the affair with the OM) that she must beat before she can face the fact that she's acted horribly and immorally, and now must try to rebuild a marriage with a man who she may not "love" (romantic sense). Can she get through this? Sure. But in the end, I believe that most affairs are more difficult on the WS then the BS---especially when the BS is a man (because we're better at compartimentalizing our lives).

Your job in Plan A is to negotiate an end to the affair, and attempt to get your wife into a recovery program. You've done a decent job with regards to exposing the affair. I would say that your main focus is trying to keep it together for as long as you can, without losing love for your wife, in hopes that she will go through withdrawal and come out ready to start rebuilding. In that regard, you should have honest conversations about SPECIFIC issues that are killing your love for her---and they ought to be phrased using the Policy of Joint Agreement.

(And if I hear one more comment about how your wife lies and therefore the POJA is not applicable---I'm going to scream. You can use the POJA and safe negotiation techniques yourself, to present requests to your wife and try to come to a solution. If she's not buying---you then either don't do it, or you do in the most respectful way possible).

You want the two cellphones gone, POJA this. You want to attempt counseling now? POJA.

You may need to use Plan B to guard your love for your wife and bring about an end to this affair. You want to do by a lovingly executed Plan A. If you go ballistic on her in a transition to Plan B---the affair may end, but she may not come back. In fact, I would suggest that your transition to Plan B be a situation where you (or she) finds a place for her to live that's cheap enough for you to afford. Help her move into it. And then institute no contact. I would suggest that this not take place until the late November timeframe---it gives you enough time to prove a consistent track record of good marital behavior in Plan A, and a Plan B transition right before the holidays is usually pretty devistating for the WS.

Remember, if you're running out of gas in Plan A---you're either expending too much effort, or you need to protect yourself against certain WS behaviors. Figure out what it is, and then attempt to mitigate it---even if it means you need to discuss it with your wife.

now bob---after being thanked on the other thread---please listen to me....LISTEN TO K.

I REMEMBER THE FIRST REPLY HE EVER GAVE ME...I CRIED BECAUSE IT CAME FROM HIM. HE IS DEFINATELY SOMEONE YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO!!!! you may not like what you hear...but you can be right or married.....simple choice really.

And Bob---I'm not a huge fan of MWD's 180 approach (usually because it gets misinterpreted), but there's an aspect here that coach mentions that you should consider. Your wife has mentioned that you're clingly and are overly-pursuing her. Back off---maybe focus on the family. Invite her along, but if she doesn't want to go, you go and have a great time with the kids. And let her know that you're sorry that she didn't go along.

K, the poster child comment was ironic after a comment I got last week. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think I am doing cr@p but the best I can.

I have not LBed my WW yet, largely because I am not saying anything remotely controversial. I am not sur where u see I have DJed for example. I type a lot of 'wannado's on here, but only a 1% of the best most considered stuff ver gets into life.
We are not having 'big' discussions. My posts today came out my frustration at not havingthose conversations. my WW has no concept of what we have to do to save our marriage. She appears to be interpreting facts very differently to myself, and other folks I share this with.

I have trouble with how our M got to a place where WW had an affair because I cannot express my view of the facts of the case in EN terms. I had become physically less attractive than I had been all my life, and certainly not a specimen like her Karate brethren. I had also become less lighthearted as I got a job with high responsibility. I could write loads more but i cannot articulate in ENs unmet. I have always manifestly praised and supported W in her sport, her previous career, her mothering abilities, everything. She was very shy and unconfident when we met but I like to think I have contributed to a massive increase in her self-confidence over the years. Have I also pushed her away ? Probably...

The A is all but dead already, and plan B would be highly complex to execute in our situation.

The current situation appears to be an absolute breeze from my WW. She has strength to be mean and is using me as a babysitter while she spends as much time at karate and socialising with her sport friends without me as she possibly can. She seems to have a dream life right now apart from her OM 'soul mate' wants nothing to do with her.

If it IS going to get hard for WW, I don't see it sometime soon. She is happy as a sand boy, toying with me and feeding her whims.

She was more fulfilled by her sport than our marriage , and eventually chose a man from her sport to love. No surprise really. She has always been very selfish and protective of her sport. She has never in 22 years ever given up a karate session so we could do anything together. Karate is more important to her than her marriage, her kids, anything IME. It is one reason why I fear our M is not rescuable.

I wonder now if there have been previous Karate aA's . I may find out one day.

I know my WW doesn't love me now. It makes this very hard, doing this in HOPE that she may love me again one day. I am not sure she even likes me much. Pre-A she valued me as a protector, friend, sponsor but Love? Dunno.

when I deconstruct it my own experience of our M was awful teh past 2 years. My W was basically a part time maid and au pair. SF was useless, she hadno enthusiasm for anything, and refused my every effort to discuss our M or inject a little spice. I think this is because her EA with OM could've started some 1.5 years ago.

K, I am unsure of almost everything here. I am NOT depressed, the Doc stopped my A-Ds as the side effects were unacceptable AND I am actually, genuinely doing OK now.


I am not very emotionally literate, so forgive me if I appear crass or simple. I am hurting, and my spirit screams to stop the hurt asap.

Although the a is all but dead, my WW seems not NEAR 'crashing' or entering withdrawal, although some think she already is withdrawing.

K I appreciate your swat, all wise head input is highly valuable to me.

And finally, U think this isn;t hard ? well, its the hardest thing I've ever done. And I've done some hard stuff.

cheers K <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

We are not having 'big' discussions. My posts today came out my frustration at not havingthose conversations.

If "conversation" is one of your WW's BIG needs.... then man, are YOU screwing up!

Think about it.

Pep

Bob:

Good responses 2 you so far. I particularly like what FH, coach, and especially K said 2 you.

You've only been plan A'ing 7 weeks? And you're running out of gas?

7 weeks is not a long time. Gas tanks do run out though. You should pace yourself.

BUT: What do you expect 2 do when/before you run out of gas? If you're "done", what exactly does that mean 2 your life? I'm sorry, but none of us gets 2 choose the "option" 2 just 2uit, you know. "Wherever you go, you take you with you." "you", in this case, includes all your memories, affections, but mostly your INTEGRITY, because I think all the others fall in2 place when that's intact. Religious people will know what I'm talking about. They describe this as your relationship with God. It MUST be your number 1 priority for any of the rest 2 work out in a healthy way.

You say you're negotiating with the OM's GF 2 help end the A. If so, you should ask her 2 ask the OM 2 tell her every time that your W calls him. And even better, he should not answer when she does call (or block her calls, if that's possible). This must come as a request from HER, though. Not a condition laid down by YOU. Your W's desire 2 keep in contact is your bigger problem, not whether or not the OM wants 2 recover any integrity he might have ever had.

Humor is great. But your integrity will sustain you.

best,
-ol' 2long

I didn't say it wasn't hard---and yes, it was the hardest thing I had to do too.

But it's not as bad as being the WS.

No excuses for Plan B. You need to be there in a few months if your wife hasn't committed to a recovery plan. It's the best chance for your marriage. And don't bother having long conversations with your WW---they'll drive you nuts. I remember clearly a conversation with my WW that convinced me that our marriage was over. And then that evening she was playing with the kids and me just like old times, and discussing our future like the affair hadn't even happened. It's addictive behavior---pure and simple. Bipolar. Completely irreconcilable with reality. Don't get caught up in it. Don't waste precious neurons trying to understand it. Your wife is a mentally ill addict right now---accept that and you'll be able to lovingly detach from her behaviors.

Pep, we always discussed everything pre-A, except the last few months then WW withdrew. She offered less and less of hers for me to hear and for us to discuss. Discussions became somewhat monologues, (now that I consider) while the A was active.
I mean we haven't discussed big stuff since D-Day. WW not interested. Instantly accuses/fogs/snide comments. Not worth pursuing big conversations yet IMO.

* 2long I agree with your words, friend but I can't help my heart being tired today. My friends and brother are on long vacations, I have been alone this week apart from the great but distant folks on here.
I will be so until next Friday. Its been hard being loveless, confused, plan A'ing, scared, all those things without anyone but my dog to confide in.

I will have good days and hard days I guess. But I think I have had a good plan A day today. I got a point across without LB'ing. My WW has responded, so something got through, I took the kids to our local park with the dog to watch the weddings (our local park is lovely and forested and has a ruined priory in it, so is popular with wedding parties for photographs in the summer!)and did some chores. No LBs, some unusually pleasant behaviour from WW, even gave me her cheek to kiss as she left to go out this evening (Karate social evening * sigh* no OM tho).

Just another day in the uncertain journey to rebuilding a shattered M. I will have good ones and bad ones I guess.

* K, at some point I will need to explain our situation for plan B. I don't see how it would work as I would need to PAY to get WW a love nest that OM doesn't even want right now. Don't see how that would work. I have considered that I could get a work assignment somehere and take the kids, but that would upset their schooling at an important time for my D.

Also, the A is virtually dead in all but WWs hopes. I am not sure how long she can continue to be hopeful in the absence of any positive indicators supporting her fantasy.

We'll see. I am willing to do what it takes,but the only strong link left in this A is my WW.

I'm off now to make the kids a fun dinner.

Thanks all. You really are all I've got in this right now. I appreciate it all, tough love, advice, everything.

A peaceful weekend to you all.

<small>[ August 28, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>