Forgive a cross posting from the Plan A/Plan B forum - I wanted to open this up for more opinion please:

I am preparing for the possibility of moving to plan B at some time if plan A doesn't end the affair. The A is crumbling before my eyes right now, so it may not be necessary, but I must take preparatory steps in any case.

Now my WW has no source of income other than myself. The OM also has no income independent of his GF.

The OM has denied my WW to his GF and is reconciling hard with her, so it it pretty unlikely that he will move out of his family home to be with my WW. OM GF told me he refused in tears when she offered to split all finances down the middle if he left. He refused the very dream he had shared with my WW.

Also his son by an XW has tragically died meaning OM is even more family minded than ever. His GF tells me that he is terrified of losing his family and his home. Even if this is only partly true, the A is crumbling.


My WW herself has lied to the OM GF at the request of OM so she is hardly demonstrating a huge desire to be with OM either, despite her fog talk. And she is still in my house with no signs of leaving - shes making small plans for the future etc. The only fly in the ointment is her persistent telephone contact to OM. It appears from the bills to be all one way - my WW is doing all or most of the calling.

Now if she persists in contact with OM and I have to move to plan B, what do I do? Would I need to fund somewhere for her to live, and potentially provide a A love nest for herself and OM to sneakily meet ifhe chose to be a cake eater?

I couldn't see the girl I love on the street, but I couldn't fund a love nest either.

Now I could move out easily, as my job affords me travel and I would get someplace comfortable to live at very short notice

BUT.............!!!

How would THAT be effective as a'plan B' when I would still be funding my W to live in our lovely house with the kids ? All she would miss would be my (currently annoying to her) physical presence.

I could leave with thekids, butthatwould cause some disruptionto my kids hard won schooling. AND I'd lose my credit rating if I didn't kepe up home payments and bills etc. remember my WW has no income but me, and OM has no income but his GF either. They couldn't even rent a poor place if they wanted to. They could apply for social housing but would be low priority AND , well, my WW would really struggle to live in social housing.
So in summary, reasons why plan B is complex for me:

*WW & OM have zero income
*OM is reconciling hard with his GF & son.A is effectively dead today.
*OM has avoided an easy opportunity to leave GF with half her money to be with WW.

So : plan B would mean WW moving out on her own and living destitute or on the street unless I pay for independent accommodation, in which case she's hardly going to realise the hardship of leaving our marital home is she?


I am sure there is a precedent for this.

Any advice from experienced folks much appreciated. Thanks ! I need to prepare in case NC is not established in the next month or two. I will not be plan A'ing in 2005.

<small>[ August 29, 2004, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob, man, oh man, you love to over analyze things. I thought I did a lot of that, but I pass the "blue ribbon" to you.

Plan B - banish it from your thoughts. Aside from reading up on what Plan B is, you are not anywhere near to needing plan B. Perhaps after 6 months of Plan A with no improvement or a rekindled affair, then you might want to move to plan B. At that point, she goes. On the street if necessary, but that's because the OM will have to take care of ALL of her needs. That's what Plan B is all about. Letting them try to satisfy all of each other's needs and giving the "reality" that their life, and childen, of the past are gone.

But again, you are nowhere near ready for Plan B, so waste no more energy thinking about it. Right now it just seems attractive because it seems like it would separate you from some of the pain you are enduring while Plan A'ing.

Stiff upper lip, and all that rot. Suck it up. You are doing good, but your impatience is showing.

God bless.

Bob,

Does your wife have any relatives or friends she could move in with? That would be one solution. Can you fund a cheap apartment or an extended stay hotel for a while? Another solution. If you divorce, do you expect to keep your house---or will this need to be sold?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now if she persists in contact with OM and I have to move to plan B, what do I do? Would I need to fund somewhere for her to live, and potentially provide a A love nest for herself and OM to sneakily meet ifhe chose to be a cake eater?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You say this like it's bad. If you are forced into this position, the best thing that will hasten the end of the affair is for the OM and your wife to have unlimited time together. It's not so romantic when your wife is without her kids and her comfortable house. WW's cannot live by cake alone---the affair thrives in fantasy, and she won't be in a fantasy land.

I would suggest that if you fund this for a while, you also make it clear that it's a financial stretch, and she'll either need to find a job or this will hasten the need to sell the house and divide assets (I have no idea how divorce settlements work in England).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I could move out easily, as my job affords me travel and I would get someplace comfortable to live at very short notice

BUT.............!!!

How would THAT be effective as a'plan B' when I would still be funding my W to live in our lovely house with the kids ? All she would miss would be my (currently annoying to her) physical presence.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a good idea too, although if you can get the WS to move out, it's always a better alternative. In my plan B, I was the one who moved out. It wasn't easy on my wife---the kids were very upset, and she had to deal with that daily. Plan B wasn't too bad on me after a couple weeks---and I made sure that I was still very involved with the kids. I financed the residence (an extended stay hotel) on credit, figuring that it wasn't going to be a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

So, while you're concerns are valid---your Plan B is hardly strange circumstances. In fact, it's pretty typical. Of all these options, I'd vote for funding a (yukky) love nest.

FH, I posted this in response to K's 2x4 swat earlier today. Just trying to see what cards I can play no more. this stuff is all new to me.

I hope plan A won't be needed too. I have posted a lot of navel gazing last few days because I have no-one in the real world to discuss with at the mo' with Brother on a business trip and best friend on vacation. Sorry if it seems I am moaning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

* K, some obvious stuff I overlooked there thanks. Of course WW could stay with friends/relatives. D'oh.

I'd have real trouble funding a love nest.
Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
<strong>
I'd have real trouble funding a love nest.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob,

I know it sounds hard and goes counter to all of your instincts, but PLEASE listen to K -- he REALLY knows what he's talking about!

-HD

HD I know K knows. Hs advice is absolutely invaluable. I haven't saod I won't do what is needed, I have just said that it would feel immoral to me to fund an extramarital sex nest for OM & WW. How on earth do I justify that in prayer ?

" Dear God, I have used the blessngs you gave me to set up an apartment where I know the wife you gave to me in love and faith will cheat on me and you with an amoral man. Please make them not enjoy it."

I'm not being 'cute' or funny here deadly serious, I have real trouble with deliberately facilitating a continuation of the PA apart from the fact that I would recoil if I felt they would ever have sex again.

If I need to plan B I will consult with wise heads like K, maybe also Penny and/or the Harleys to make sure I am sure I do the right thing by God and man.

I pray anyway with the A sinking fast, the OM backpedalling like an olympic sport and the A now only barely alive in the hopes and fantasy of my WW that plan B may not be necessary.

I will not wait for ever however. Dec 31st is my last plan A day. If there is not demonstrable NC by then, I plan B in January. I will not worry about that yet, as it may not happen, but I will not pretend to be looking forward to that.

Bob, I am not in the same league here as the experienced ones on MB. In many ways my story hasn't been too horrible in that even though H was in a "passionate love A" (yuck, I hate saying that), he pretty much ended it cold turkey when I told him OW goes or he goes. Phone contact continued for about one month after she left his business 2/27/04, but that was it. Then the fun of terrible withdrawal. I am not always the most patient of people and sometimes, like lately, just grow weary of the time it might take to MAYBE recover from this. So take whatever I say with a grain of salt, OK?

First off, I want to respond to several threads you've started. Hope you don't mind. It's easier to write about them in just one thread. Concerning what you wrote yesterday about your need to tell WW what you think. Maybe you've already told her. If not, this is what I think. In my case my fogged out H needed to hear me speak the truth to him, especially in the beginning. Now I'm not talking about my occasional LB fests where I'd hammer him. Those made him want to run to OW for cover. I'm talking about some of the things I've mentioned to you before, such as: Pointing out that if 2 people encouraging each other to betray, lie, cheat, and deceive the people they love is true love, well H can have it. THAT is not romantic to me. Pointed out to him how their R has been operating in a little bubble world. What would it be like if everything is out in the open? Told him if their love is so beautiful then go follow his bliss. Of course if you do that H you will need to tell our children, and the A will be out in the open. Also told him don't assume our staying together is only dependent on YOUR choice. At this moment you aren't exactly the grand prize. (OK, maybe that was an LB) I was also fortunate to have several therapists tell him point blank As rarely last. Anyway, those are just some of the things I told him at times. He actually would tell me it helped.

The other thing is I believe that NC is NC. At some point your W has to get that through her head. I wonder if OM's GF enforced that concept with OM if that would help. If OM really wants to save his R, then he would change his cell, and write a NC letter to your W. Just a thought. Bottom line is you need to know when you need to enforce that boundery and stick to it. Everyone's tolerance level is different. For me, it was simple, NC!

Concerning this thread. If you have to Plan B at some point, it isn't your responsibility to fund anything, except what you are legally required to fund. If your W wants to go follow her bliss, well let her. Don't make it easy for her. Let reality smack her in the face. You'll be doing her a favor. Let her see what life without you would be like. And don't you leave your home.

Finally, there was some thread debating about humor at the WS's expense. Some might totally disagree with me, but here goes. Humor has kept me sane. Especially in the place you are in. I wrote many posts in which I mocked out H's fogtalk. I also vented much anger. In doing this it kept me from bashing the heck out of H. Were some of the things I wrote disrespectful? Yeh! Pre-A I NEVER talked about H. This A gave me permission to vent. Venting here has helped me immensely.

Well, I think that's it. Sorry this is so long. It's the 1st opportunity I've had to write to you. I know it's hard for you because your W is so seriously fogged out. Her A will continue to crumble, and hopefully the fog will lift soon. Take care Bob! CV

Bob...Hey! LINY recovering from his 3-beer hangover! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Did I remotely get a grin out of you?)

FH said it: overanalyzing! Not that it's not good to be "ready" and consider all possibilities, but, espececially in your sit, my goodness, you can't dream the things that have happened!

Wednesday is the funeral, right? Patience. I'm still a little confused over why the OM won't just say, "Leave me the f#$% alone!" (Or should I say, "Damn you bloody woman...Leave me alone!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I'm sure he's going through withdrawal, but now should actually be easiest for him to NC--there are actually more things that are painful to him than ending this A. Didn't OM GF tell you he wanted this? Methinks you should plant yet another seed with GF next time you speak with her. Let her know that the seed is for him to grow some....well. It's lude, but *he's* the one that he said he wanted nothing to do with your WW anymore and that he wants to concentrate on his family.

Well, have a good day. Keep going Bob!

Dear Bob.... take your emotional hat off for a second....

Think about this.....

Do you know what the majority of WW's say was the BIG DEAL that made the OM so attractive?

It is usually "the long heart-to-heart conversations"...

The validation of her feelings....

Most of the time, this is the catalyst that allowed the W to fall into the WW trap. She has a huge need to TALK and be HEARD by a WILLING listener.

NOT to have her faults pointed out to her.
Not to have her problems "solved" by the listener.
Not to be "fixed" by the listener...

But to have her voice .... to speak openly and be heard .....

I think this may be a missing piece to your Plan A.

Have you listened to your wife enough?
Even if it's tripe in your mind, have your ears been open?

When your WW looks at you today, does she see a man who will listen and a man who will not judge?

Do you know the number ONE hurdle to recovery that WW's complain of the most?
"I don't trust him to be there (emotionally) for me"

I bet you 100$ US that the affair sex was "just OK" but the conversations were like "WOW" for your WW.

Start putting yourself into the sympathetic listener role.

Just do it.

Don't complain about it.

This is likely the missing piece.

We all agree the affair is about to crash and burn.... and if you are already sitting in the "understanding listener" chair, you are waaaaay ahead of most BH when recovery begins.

If we asked your wife if she'd rather have another bunch of roses from you or have your sympathetic listening to validate her... you know what her answer would be, don'cha?

If she strayed .... it was for a reason. Her weakness was what? She needs to be heard.

So, ask her this tonight...

"Can I just be your friend tonight. Lets just talk as friends."

Then ask another question later on...

"If you could have your dream come true, what would it be?"

Then listen and do not question her answer. Accept her answer "as is". If it is something like "To be married to OM"

Say: " Is there more you dream about?"

Get her talking about her inner workings. her hopes, her dreams, her hidden desires for what she's like to try in the future.

You know what intimacy looks like ... it is sharing secrets of the soul.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CV55:
I wonder if OM's GF enforced that concept with OM if that would help. If OM really wants to save his R, then he would change his cell, and write a NC letter to your W. Just a thought.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow CV! Glad we thought of the same thing to give Bob some similar advice! (Check the times!)

BOB .... quit trying to manipulate the demise of the already dying affair... It's burnt toast.

Begin to position yourself as the sympathetic listening understanding strong rock of a man for your wife to lean against when her heart crashes.

YOU become the safe place to fall apart for her.

Pep

And if the conversation "as friends" goes like this....

WW says ... "You NEVER blah blah blah, vile accusation, wildly rewritten history, blah blah blah, foggese"

Bob response..."I can see how much you hurt right now. Is there something I can do for you right now?"

WW gets more enraged, looking for a fight.... "You are a selfish prikk and always were."

Bob stays focused on his purpose..."I know I have been selfish. I wish I could go back and change things. What things would you go back and change?"

(get her refocused on HERSELF and HER feelings.... she needs to open up to you .... as much as it hurts your ears... this is called INTIMACY .....

Accept her current feeling as real (validate)

BOB .... what she is looking for in you ....

You see her as a beautiful desirable interesting woman.

So, say these things if the conversation allows....

"You are a complicated fascinating woman. I can't take my eyes off you."

Go where the OM cannot go right now.

Fill that need.

She is screaming with her needs.

"Validate me. Tell me I matter. Tell me I am desirable. Tell me I can be loved in this place for who I am"

Pep

<small>[ August 29, 2004, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

And.....

If the conversation gets too painful for you .....

Hold out your hand and GENTLY SAY ... "Please stop for a minute"

Close your eyes, breathe slowly.... let tears flow if they will...

Then, when you are ready, say ... "This is difficult to hear because it hurts. But I need this conversation, I want to know the real you. Please continue, but I might need to halt for a breath now and then, it is very painful to hear. Please, let's continue"

Pep

And.... if she stabs you through the heart with her words...

You will likely feel a flash of *anger*

recognige your anger as the only voice your hurt knows right now....

If you become angry.....

Do this:

"Please stop for a minute. What you said really, really hurts.

I need a hug. Please hug me right now. I am hurting so."

Then, allow your hurt a new voice.... reject the angry voice.

Ask for her help if you become angry.

"I feel angry because I feel hurt. Please help me get rid of my anger by embracing my hurt with me in a hug."


Pep

<small>[ August 29, 2004, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Emotional intimacy looks like this....

sharing
listening
sharing
listening
sharing
listening

Then, usually .... touch follows.

Pep

Bob....

They way to win her heart back is through YOUR emotional vulnerability.

Open up emotionally, right now you are too closed off, and this makes you unattractive to your WW.

You are behind your wall, trying to be safe. She is behind her wall , lobbing grenades at your wall.

Walk out into the open.

The affair is over..... or nearly over.

Time to change the marital paradigm.

You go first.

Show her YOUR wounds .... ask to see hers.

Hug
Cry
Talk

Pep

If you do this to the best of your ability and with your greatest HUMILITY ....

I doubt you'll need a Plan B in December.

You are in good position to step right up to meeting your WW's greatest intimate conversational needs.... coz OM is "busy elsewhere".

If you don't try.... then you are not willing to REALLY Plan A.

This is a "giver" opportunity.... take it!

Pep

Pep
This is hard to explain, and I guess its because I have been unable so far to compartmentalise my failure to meet WWs ENs in MB-categories.

My WW and I always talked about stuff. We were both great listeners and great talkers. We both felt 'heard' and were each others first confidants over stuff big and small. Sometimes we would agree a response toether, sometimes we'd just listen, sometimes we'd hold each other and cry or laugh. But we didn't just talk, we COMMUNICATED.

This got us thrugh soem awful times : loss of WWS F, loss of both my P, some financial probs and a firt baby that cried when awake for every waking moment for six months. It was WW and me against the world and WITH the world.

When we were both born again in 1993 nothing changed except we now also prayed together.

When she gave up her job as a nurse to be a SAHM after the birth of our son in 1997 we had some tough times, and she threw herself with GREATER passion into karate once she returned to the sport in 2000. I encouraged her to join a new, reknownedly passionate club., she soon became the senior instructor, involved in the nationalsport and it took ove rher life, providing her with MASSIVE fulfilment as her job had, but without the need to compromise the kids care by working during teh day. After all her sport was 4 evenings a week and 2 weekends per month.


I felt increasingly left out and made this point many times without LBing and she said " what am I supposed to do, stay at home while you work ?". Its true that with no family around in the eveings and some weekends I just carried on working. BUT it is a chicken and egg situation. WW filled her eveings and weekends with karate, I just backfilled with work thinking it would be temporary. I continued to support her sport - what loving husband wouldn't ? She was becoming famous and successful in her sport.

(I have a role which covers Europe, Middle East and Africa as a territory and my office base is at Home when I have not been travelling.)

In 2002 she met OM and it is clear now that there wa flirting an mutual atrraction even back then.

She and He convinced me that Ishould sponsor her to become a nationally accredited referee as she wouldbe europes only female senior ref and also it was a way to continue in the sport once the joints begin to seize ( WW is very fit at 40, but can't really compete with the kids now).

I agreed and basically delivered my WW into OMs hands at tournaments for the next 2 years.She had the opportunity to get her final accreditation by refereeing an international competition in Italy in June. She BEGGED me to go, although it was hard for me and I felt uncomfortable. She was attending with a team of both sexes, and , well OM wasn;r slightly a trheat to me then. Short, old, podgy, even WW joked about the lack of attractiveness of the mens he was going with.

I booked a weeks vacation to look after the kids and she went. I shook OMs hand at the airport and said " Look after her OM, because I love her" He sad he would, No sh1t...

It is clear that while sex may not have happened in Italy ( they both denied it, bt what does THAT mean) the first kiss did and they were wandering around like lovestruck teens all week by all accounts.

Within a week of returning they had booked a hotel by the hour at lunchtime and had sex for the first time. She loved it and felt no guilt.

Her behaviour changed so profoundly that I suspected something was up within a week or so. I busted their affair after five or six sex sessions on July 21st.

And everything since, dear friends, is on this board for review.

In short I think Karate took over the role of making WW feel validated and admired by OTHERS not just me ( I have always openly admired and validated my WW). She just stopped valuing my support and love for her compared to the validation and admiration she got from her sport buddies. Its no surprise then that she found a man to replace me in her dreams who was senior in the world she had abandoned me for.

I got my satisfaction where I could too which meant my kids and my work, never my WW for a leats 2 years.

I can't translate that into ENs unmet, though I have tried. I need to work on it more.

I think my biggest sin was to provide lazy love - trusting too much and not confronting how Karate was taking over our lives when I KNEW it stank.So thats the lot.

WW hates to be considered to be a SAHM - she even chose a wholly impractical sports car as her personal transport as the previous minivan was 'too mumsy'. She does not value SAHM contribution. I think she needs external ( non family) success in order to maintain her preferred flavour of self-respect.

I have always been a sympathetic listener because I have alwasys been INTERESTED In ANYTHING she had to say to me, but she chose the ear of another from another world. I PRAY for the opportunity to once again become WWs confidant.

Right now in fog, we don't discuss much. I will begin to raise discussions like you suggest when I feel strong enough to. Thanks pep.

Pep...I think this is wonderful advice for *any* M. Thanks for sharing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pep thats insightful.. WW has avoided discussion so far since d-day apart from some great early discussions we had about the A. I will get some strength and try to do as you suggest. I am not good at making myself vulnerable though when I know she will hurt me for fun as a response.

I will try. My whole life is 'trying'.