I read an very interesting post to Bob Pure, by "K," on August 28, and in it was written:

"In the end, I believe that most affairs are more difficult on the WS than the BS... especially when the BS is a man (because we're better at compartmentalizing our lives.).

I find K's responses to be very interesting; they are certainly among the most insightful on the board. However, I think it would be especially interesting to read some viewpoints from BS's and FWS's in the context of this particular statement.

My wife left home on April 7th. An affair with one of her co-workers was evident (99.9 percent sure). I have used the MB principles to the best of my ability, but with her quick departure, there was virtually no opportunity to apply the Plan A principles. It's definitely a modified Plan A.

It obviously varies from one case to another. In my own case, I have found the experience to be sheer agony because I love her deeply, but the betrayal, deception, and coldness I have seen from this entirely transformed person have been almost more than I can bear. She, on the other hand, seems to be getting on OK (when I see her - who knows what torment she goes through when she lies in the dark before going to sleep).

My question is this: most of the postings I have seen on this board make it clear that the BS's go through a terrible amount of pain through betrayal - if you are in agreement that the WS experiences more difficulty (or pain), why do you think this is? What are your thoughts on this.

I personally can't think of a greater anguish than I've experienced through all of this - it's been awefull (I can't take AD's because I am an airline pilot) - are there FWS's out there who would care to comment on this?

Is it really possible that a WS could experience a greater agony than learning (as a BS) that the person you've made a covenant to love for life has betrayed you?

IslandGuy, would you rather be a WS than a BS? I wouldn't. They get sex and feel in love, but if they are halfway decent people, they also feel something else, something sinister, far below. And if they're the kind of person you want in your life, it doesn't go away.

Somebody told me not long ago, the BS pain is deep, but it is a clean wound. The WS pain is not at all clean.

GC

I'm not a FWS. I'm a Loyal Husband.

I can not honestly say whether a WS experiences more pain as a result of an A. I know that betrayal by someone you trusted is an extremely painful and scarring event. Whether it is by your spouse, friend, child, boss, etc. You trusted somebody with a private part of you.

As far as it being </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> especially when the BS is a man </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find this hard to believe. The statistics I have seen bear out that when a woman has an affair that she is less likely to reconcile the marriage and it ends in divorce. Men more often return to the marriage. WW more often seek replacement affairs, while WH seek add-on affairs.

This is just what I have read. I am by no means an authority.

<small>[ August 29, 2004, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

GC, I have often told my wife that I know she is a better person than this. But just recently I told her that I hope that I was right in thinking she was a better person than this, and not mistaken when we married 15 years ago.

In addition, I'm sorry, I may have misinterpreted the post. I did not read the original thread. The title says </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Most A's are more difficult on the WS </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If difficult does not mean painful then the assertion that WW have a more difficult time may be true.

WW may have less disposable income available, plus may have children that make maintaining an Affair "difficult."

However if the assertion is that a conscience of a woman is stronger than I man's, Well quite frankly I find that sexist and inappropriate.

<small>[ August 29, 2004, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

Hi gray. I have followed your postings for some time – it’s been eerie at times because I have often referred to my own little wife as the “sparrow.” I hope your sparrow comes to her senses and makes her way home to her nest again.

I certainly wouldn’t want to be a WS over a BS either. I agree with you on that, gc. They get sex and feel in love, as you said, but they’re must be a terrible hollowness to it; I can’t imagine it would be otherwise. It is sinister, and it’s dark, so maybe this a worse burden to carry – it’s hard to hold your head high when one is living their life like this. Do you think it really torments them though, or does a person that does such an unconsciable thing to another really get bothered by it - my wife seems nearly oblivious to what I've gone through.

I like your analogy of the BS’s experience being a clean wound, whereas the WS wound is hardly that at all, is it?

Tom (LH - I salute you! - me too) – you referred to the experience as a “scarring” one – I think this is interesting, and for me it’s worrisome at times. I worry about it because, perhaps naively, I had blind trust in my wife.

I never put a thought to the idea that she would do this – it was a perfect trust, and now I feel scarred by this and wonder how long it will take before I can restore that. Blind trust is obviously a mistake – I’ve learned that now, but there seems a certain sadness in not being able to place a ‘blind’ and ‘unquestioning’ trust in someone that has made promises and vows to you.

When I hear about people saying that they'll never fully trust again, I think that this is one of the sadest things because it makes the world a very uncertain place when you can't (at the very least) trust the ONE person you've shared this covenant with. What kind of world is this when there's no trust? It seems grim.

What is a promise and a covenant when you have to doubt it and be suspicious? Seems to take something away from the sanctity of marriage when you have to be suspicious or curious about your spouses activities.

I don't think this is about comparing pain levels. My gosh, the pain that I have read about here by the BS is incredible! It has helped me focus on how destructive the behavior of the WS really is and helped me understand the deep emotions my W has gone through. I wish I could wave a magic wand over all the foggy WS's out there to return to their senses. I wish I could help...

I DO understand the guilt, pain and fears of being a FWH. I do understand the incredible addiction that I was caught up in and the deep depression and grief that consumes your thoughts while struggling to break free. I do understand the daily pain of my own failings and fears that I will never recover the soulmate that was living right under the same roof as me for 27 years. I am more angry at myself than my W could ever be. I can't sleep, eat or focus just like the BS. I have read that the withdrawl of an A is just like the withdrawl from cocaine. I've never done cocaine, but the withdrawl I went through was Physical, emotional and more painful than anything I had ever thought. BUT, after surviving the withdrawl pain, I still face a daily struggle of knowing my failings and mistakes.

Whether the pain of the BS or the WS is greater is not an issue. The issue is that we are all struggling with an epidemic problem that has wrecked our lives and in some cases, destroyed them. We all need each other for support and we can all help each other on this most difficult road to recover our M.

2scared

2scared. Thank-you for your ideas on this. It has helped me to understand a little better another perspective on this. I certainly sense that you've gone through a great deal of pain in coming to terms with what happened, and that your work to restore things is a long uphill battle.

Sleep? I don't think I've slept more than a few hours a night for nearly six months. I've lost about a dozen pounds (which I could ill-afford to lose in the first place), and there's rarely a day goes by that I'm not in tears over this.

On D-day I was riding my bicycle when I FIRST came upon the discovery, and I couldn't see the road for my tears - hit a curb, fell of my bike, and scuffed up myself pretty bad. Moral - don't ride your bike on D-day.

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<small>[ August 30, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: IslandGuy ]</small>

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<small>[ August 30, 2004, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: IslandGuy ]</small>

Islandguy,

The doctor helped me get some "sleep". I'm addicted to the medicine now but I can function in the morning at work... I can't afford to lose my job too. Even then it's fleeting.

I wasn't caught...I confessed. Thank God I wasn't on a bike at the time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

We all need each other.

2scared

Our recovery has been a bit bumpy, like many, but easier than most, probably. I have thought about this question a lot, and we have delved into her thinking, her behavior, and her feelings before and during the affair far maore than Harley really recommends. I can say unequivically, that I would not trade places with her, given the choice. Her mind and soul became twisted. She has to live with knowledge of what she has done.

Yeah, the pain of the BS is a clean wound, by comparison. Terrible, painful, but in the end, not as harmful to your mind, body and spirit.

I love graycloud's analogy of a clean wound for the BS versus a self-inflicted, unclean wound for the WS.

IslandGuy---if you're not sleeping, get to the doctor and ask them to prescribe you some Ambien. It'll help tremendously.

Thanks K... I'll look into that. I was anticipating that 5-6 months later I'd be over this insomnia thing, but the demons haven't gone away very much at all. I go to sleep for a few hours, and then wake up at four in the morning, and lay in bed in a knot playing these tapes through my head (the d-day tapes). How can I ever erase these horrible tapes - they just keep tormenting me?

2scared
I was the WW and your thoughts of what you face on a daily basis hit to home with me <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> !
I struggle every hour- I like you sleep for a few hours and then wake up replaying what I have done to my H as well as OMs families- the lies I told, the selfish things I did <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . I ask the question- will I regain respect for myself? Time heals all wounds they say but this one will leave a permanant scar...

K, I can't take credit for the analogy. I think it might have been 2long but not sure.

I'll add my own spin.

BS wound: like swift amputation of leg with a clean blade.

WS wound: chewed own leg off.

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by forgiven22:
<strong> 2scared
I was the WW and your thoughts of what you face on a daily basis hit to home with me <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> !
I struggle every hour- I like you sleep for a few hours and then wake up replaying what I have done to my H as well as OMs families- the lies I told, the selfish things I did <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . I ask the question- will I regain respect for myself? Time heals all wounds they say but this one will leave a permanant scar... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*hugs* awww sweetie.....I know I am currently not sleeping to well myself....my recurring nightmare I was having seeing my H in bed with a faceless OW I was at the foot of the bed and they were laughing at me....it came true....he moved on rather swiftly...not even a month....but it still hurts and affects us badly....I have stomach issues as well....and even tho I take a prescription for it...all this stress is making it worse....and the lack of sleep is affecting my job...

IslandGuy, I am new to this so my opinion should be treated with suspicion.

However, MY pain ( OUR pain, yours andmine?) as a BS smashes into us like a train crash on d-day.

I went from "7.5 outta ten" on the "how u doing?" scale to minus one billion in ten minutes.

I went from having hope, love, security to being hopeless, loveless, insecure in ten minutes.

From having a 40 year future to having no future at all, and having had my supposedly good history stolen from me too. My faith died, mylove died. I died.

In ten minutes. I then crawled around on my hands and knees in my own snot an dtears for a couple of the darkest weeks possible to imagine.

WW was haughty, distant , confidant, unapologetic at this time.Regretful at being found out NOT for knowingly destroying my life.

I don't agree with the clean wound/dirty wound analogy. Whether cut out or torn out, the loss of your heart kills you. You bleed to death from the loss of a limb however excised.

The timeline of MY pain progressed UP. God worked in my life, showed me MB and these folks. Stripped away everything but a capacity to love and forgive that I neverdreamed was possible before the A. I stood up. Wiped off the snot and tears. Showered. Stopped crying ALL the time. Bound up the fatal gash in my soul and started climbing out of the pit.
WIth a few backslides I have made progress up the wall of the pit every day now for four/five weeks.
I am now at 2.5 - 4 on the "doing OK scale". And improving.

On D-day my WW was probably doing 9 on the "OK " scale. Her utter confidence that she was doing the right thing, and that he future was sure , secure amd RIGHTEOUS was solid. She didn't allow herself to see the hurt she had caused me, or the risks she was causing the kids and OMs family.

Didn't care. Since then she sailed along at 8 on he "OK" scale until probably I exposed and OM denied her. She probably dropped to a 6 then, and she started to notice the darkness at the edge ofher dream.

Then OM backed off, told more preposterous lies about his intentions....I foun dproof of the PA they denied to OM GF...then OMs son died....and in all this time OM has made absolutely no effort to see or meet her. Calls yes, but no PC.

OM is virtally gone dark now while he shovels his own life into a sack. WW is rapidly facing reality.
Her certainty for the future has been smashed, she is looking at the A devastation in the lives on OMs and our own families that SHE has caused, and is getting scared. She isn't dropping YET like BSdo on D-day, but she's dropping at a way steeper angle.
I was left with hope of reconciliation. WW is left with abandonment by OM and a fear that she does not deserve to be loved again by me. Also she may not want to be loved by me. Our M wasn't too much fun pre-A.

She is at minus 500k on the "OK" scale and dropping fast now.

In summary, BS drop low, fast, immediately and IF we recover we start to move up. WSs drop slow, but when they drop there is no floor but the love and plan A BS can assemble for them.

Today I KNOW I will be happy again and that I deserve to be. my WW can't see how she can ever be happy again, or deserve happiness.

Now I am yet to deal with my own wounds - it could yet be that I am hurt too deeply to forgive enough to recover our M, but even if that is the case I must do what I can for WW right now.

I think WS CAN have a harder time than BS but its is highly dependent on personality and sitiation IMO. Sorry its a long post.

Regarding dreams:

IG: The Ambien really does help to get you uninterrupted sleep---and my guess is that you won't remember these dreams (maybe the last one). My worse nightmare during this whole ordeal with my wife---I had a dream where everything was perfectly normal, pre-affair. And then I woke up and realized that it had been a dream---and my life was this nightmare of dealing with an affair. Not funny... I was hoping for a 'dream-in-a-dream' sequence for that.

Forgiven:

You need to work forward in improving your marriage, and making good moral decisions that build your respect and self-esteem back up. With time, these scars do fade for many WS. If you're not successful in that phase after a year, my suggestion would be to see a therapist specializing in cognative behavioral psychology to help you work through your issues with self forgiveness.

Back to K's original statement you cite, a corollary could be: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All things considered, I'd rather be a BS than a WS any day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's no doubt that a BS's agony when a WS is in their dopamine stupor is incomparable to the non-pain a WS is experiencing. Apples and oranges.

But long term? Bob's post above sums it up well for when a WS comes off their high.

Then there's acute pain vs chronic pain.

In cases like mine - the infidels are "happily" married, or so they claim - the long term effects are, well, long term. I have my honor and integrity. I am respected by all who really know what happened (as opposed to those who believe the aliens' account). They have to carry a burden of being double homewreckers. They will likely always be wondering about each other's trustworthiness. Even in their denial, they live every day knowing that many others on this planet think they're seriously flawed human beings.

So, in the end, if a marriage is not recovered, which would you rather be?

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

I have been on both sides of this fence. I'll give my $.02....

I was a BS twice before becoming a WS. I don't know if I have ever been felt worse pain. I had the pain of the affairs inflicted upon me, the doubting my manhood, self-confidence went to hell and seeing my life as I knew it crumbling.

Then add all the "what if's" to the equation. What could I have done to change it. If I would have done this or that with her, if I had read that book with her. The intense scrutinization of my actions, by me, led me to believe (erroneously) that I had all these chances to change the outcome but never did and it was all my fault. I took the blame and it sucked.

My wife was in the middle of her A when I had mine. I wasn't looking for an A (like all of us who had one) but I did little to stop it. My wife had one foot out the door and struggling to get the other one at. My A consisted of a lot of email, phone calls and 3 "dates." It was over in a month and I don't believe there was a lot of fog. I don't think that my A caused my wife a lot of pain because she wasn't really in the marriage and when I broke my vows the little that was got left.

Be a WS you deal with not only letting someone you love down but also compromising your principle and standards in pursuit of selfishness.

If the WS doesn't come back the I think the pain is meerly a nuisance to them because you can run from it (for a while) but if the WS decides to reconcile they are pretty much forced to take a look at what the did and how it hurt others.

My wife, as a WS, experienced a great deal of pain and struggled greatly after she decided to reconcile. I don't know who gets it worse but we all know they both suck. WS pain kinda comes from their actions and BS's come from being acted upon.

Half a dozen of one or 6 of another if you ask me.