Posted this in another forum, but thought I would post here also...

Hello, new to this site/forum in the particapating mode. My wonderful wife has been here for awhile getting support and information while I walked around in the "FOG".....

As you can see from the screen name, I'm now "fogless" and the FWH... I have browsed this site for awhile, reading posts from everyone, admiring the support given by all, etc. I have not seen any FWHs posting here (of course I'm sure I have just not seen the post), and thought I would start this thread in hopes of pulling any FWHs out there together here so we could offer up support to each other.

I'm hoping the FWHs are welcome here on this site, I have just seen BSs posting...

Welcome fogless.

I too am another FWH. There are a few of us here although you need some thick skin and open eyes to see the pain the BS is going through each and every day. Now that I'm working as hard as possible to rebuild my M, I find it helpful to see the emotions and pain these dear people go through because of the stupid, selfish acts of people like us. Once the fog lifts, you feel very bad about those terrible decisions. If we could only go back and undo....

Anyway, there are more FWW here than FWH. Sometimes it's good for us to help the BS understand fogland and the deception that controls our minds. It also helps for us to encourage that their WH or WW can wake up and realize the stupidity and pain. There is hope!

2scared

Fogless & 2scared:

I am new to the MB site as well. My story was posted on August 25,2004, one week after my husband separated from me.

Basically we have been married 17 years with two teenage daughters. We were high school sweethearts so we have been together a total of 24 years.

My questions for you two FWH is what is in the mind of a H who leaves and says that he cannot take living with me any longer? He also stated to our children that he would never put them through this again.

This is his second time leaving this year. He left in February and was gone for 3 weeks and came back in March. He was in tears when he came back and said he wanted our marriage to work. Oh, he also told the girls he tried to give this marriage one last chance, but it did not work - he said this as he was leaving last week,

I want to know from you FWH's is this typical behavior and words used when you are feeling angry, frustrated and want to be out of the marriage? Your hearts must have softened over time as you are FWH and not continuing your wondering behavior. I assume you are both working on your marriages after these episodes.

My H also said to me that we are in "break up" mode and not just taking a "break."

What should I be doing at this point? Should I leave him alone and give him some space? He is not interested in counseling at this point.

I really want to know what is in the mind of a WH and can I expect him to soften his heart to me over time?

Thanks again for posting. I think many W's would appreciate getting insight from you all. Thanks,

Newlife1,

I can't get into your H's head (that might be scary) but I can tell you what I was thinking when I moved out and what my W could have done that would have sped up the recovery.

First, I left because I was tired of juggling two women, two lives and the mental challenge of keeping those worlds apart. The double-life. The difference was that when I left I was determined to make a decision to end up with only one woman. I THOUGHT at the time that would be the OW, but I did something very sensible...I pushed both women away and got alone with myself for two weeks to really see what I wanted. During that time my moral roots and spiritual foundation came through and God began speaking to my heart. The OW got very angry that I wouldn't meet her now that I was "free". Oh well...the good news is that her true colors started coming through and I began to see her without my rose-colored glasses. Soon after I decided to end the A and the OW went nuts...calling and threatening. That helped make up my mind. I wanted out of the affair and back home with my W. I began to realize that everything I really wanted was back home. I realized I still deeply loved my W.

The problem is that my wife didn't want me. She closed communication and didn't try to welcome me back. I was being plan B'ed without her knowing that is what she was doing. That almost sent me back into the arms of the OW. Had the OW been loving it would have been difficult. I wish my W would have been in Plan A..it would have sent me running home. I mean RUNNING! Instead, I had to come to grips with ending the affair and knowing that my W might not be there for me either. I might end up alone. BUT, God assured me I was doing the right thing. Funny thing...even at the rock bottom God loved me and carried me. Luke 15. The story of the lost sheep has become one of my favorites. God carried that lost sheep when it was soooo lost it couldn't even take a step. It was frozen with fear and lost as a goose (well, lost as a lamb), but God carried it back to the fold.

It took time, guts and a lot of pain (withdrawl)but the fog began to clear and I began to see the steps to take. I'm not home yet but Thursday night my W agreed to MC. OH yeah! God is faithful!

Good luck!

2scared

2scared:

Thank you for your comments. My only problem is that I'm not sure if my H is involved with OW. My struggle has been to determine if he is involved with OW to start plan A.

When I asked H he said he was not involved with anyone. He just needed to "break up" with me at this time in his life.

I am sad as H is not really willing to talk about marriage counseling. He is very cold to me today and he has not called our girls today. Is this part of being in the "fog?" This is the most difficult part - I'm trying to be as nice to H as possible so if there is OW I will look like the lesser of two evils (it is sad to think my marriage has turned into such triviality)

If I leave H alone and have NC is this a good idea right now? I know you can't get into my H's head, but what did you say to your BS when you actually left to go to OW?

Were you harsh with words that you later regretted saying?

By the way, glad to hear that you are going to discuss matters with your W. Yes, God is Good and faithful even when we are disobedient to His will. My blessings to you and your wife on your road to recovery - can't wait until I get to the point where you are.

Newlife1,

It doesn't surprise me that he say's there is no OW. WS lie! Do you hear me...they lie and lie and continue to lie. That's the nature of the A. You have to lie to keep the two worlds apart. When they collide, you lie even more. It's only when you are forced to tell all that the truth begins to come out. I was a very honest person before the A, but during the A I lied about everything...the phone calls, the trips, the coldness. I lied. Even now I have struggles with truth. When asked difficult questions about OW I am tempted to lie to keep the W from the pain of my actions. I have to focus on being truthful. She deserves that.

Anyway, if he's leaving there IS an OW. Sorry. Men just don't leave a sure thing unless there something else in the wings. My opinion.

I would stay in plan A. You're doing great under difficult circumstances. Look for signs of the A. You need to catch him and expose the A to the light of day. Once it is exposed it will help force a decision...most A die within 6 months of exposure. Hang in there... You can always go to plan B. If you go to plan B read up on it and issue the plan B letter. It defines the rules and gives hope if he ends the A and succeeds in NC. You want him to know there is HOPE even in the darkness of plan B. As a FWH that is very important and keeps him from giving up out of hoplelessness. Despair is a powerful emotion.

Hang in there,

I'm praying for you!

2scared

Newlife1,

Check out the link to see the red flags of an A:

http://www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com/getinformed/articles/tenflags.html

Catch Him! He's communicating with her somehow...cell phone (get the records), email, seeing her (trips or work), chat rooms... he's contacting her. That's why he wants out...to have freedom and not get caught.

Good luck!

2scared

2scared--

Are you my WH? Sure sounds like your situation and mine are the same.

But I did know about Plan B before I implemented it.

As I wrote in my new thread today, WH left me a letter when he was here today (I knew he was coming, so I made sure that I was not around).

He said that he had sorted out his feelings, and his love for me was clear to him now (I quoted the whole letter in my thread "WH left me a letter today. Opinions?).

The only thing I don't know about was his last line..."Let me know by email or whatever and I will resolve things on my end once and for all."

Is that true what you said about men not giving up a sure thing unless there is someone waiting in the wings?

That line tells me that he is keeping OW on the line until he knows whether or not I want him back. I have told him that I want him back many times. I love this man dearly, even after all this!

What does it sound like to you?

The only difference in our situations is that I do want my H back... not my WH, but my H. He was like you.... one of the most honest people I ever knew in my life. Now, he is the most dishonest.

I think FWH should post here... what a great resource for BS's to get some inside information from someone who's been there and back --- but is on the other side of the A story.

Thanks Fogless for this thread! K72172

Welcome to MB fogless. I hope you find answers and support for your struggle. My FWH posted only once, but reads frequently. I'll point your post out to him...hopefully he'll jump in.

BS..... please do not try to get answers out of new members. They are confused, and unsure of what's just occured in their lives.

Let them get their feet wet first. They are here for support as well. When a BS flies at them quickly with questions, it rehashes their own pain a little bit.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, I just don't want fogless to run away quickly. He's found a lot of courage to come here as the FWH, and we want him to get help so him and his W can rebuild their M.

Not offended at all Betrayed!

I support these guys 100%! I hope my WH will one day be a FWH like Fogless, and 2scared. That one day he will post here, for support and to help others.

It's not everyday that you can get "insider info", if you know what I mean. It's just too tempting to pick their brain! Better than picking their bones!

You FWH's and FWW's that post here give us hope for the futures of our marriages.

Everyone here will support you. Once in a while you'll get a splinter from a 2x4, but it's all in the best interest....

Stick around you guys. You ARE welcome here.

OOOUUUCCH! Sorry... just picking out a splinter! But I'm still smilin'...

K72172

K-

Sorry I wasn't able to reply last night. I'm give you a quick answer this morning and then go back tonight and read your thread and make some comments.

To answer your question if we hold on to the OW till we know there is a payoff of something else... HECK YEAH! Let me tell you why. We usually test the waters some. In my case, I tried several times to end the A and each time the OW would beg, plead and tug at my heart all while I was enduring the initial stages of withdrawl. After a couple of days I would give in. There is no way I can even begin to convey the intense pain that you go through during the initial stages of withdrawl. I think (since I haven't gone through it I can only guess) that it is similar to the first week following DDay for the BS. The loss of a relationship (as powerful as death except it keeps on going). The end of something perceived special. Now let me assure you that as the fog lifts you begin to see the A for what it is (DESTRUCTIVE SIN), but in the deep fog, the ending of the A deeply painful. So... A WS wants to know that going through the pain of ending the A will be worth it. They want to know that the work and heartache will not result in more pain and heartache.

Now...let me add... The assurance that you desire to stay in the M and will commit to reconciliation needs to be qualifyed with NC and open accountability. He can't return until after withdrawl and proof that he has sustained NC (write a NC letter together and YOU mail it). You can regain communication and encourage him through the process but don't let him jump home quite so quickly. It is good for him to prove himself first. Make sure this is not a false repentance.

You sould respond with an encouraging "Yes, I am (and have been) committed to our M. I would love to have the opportunity to rebuild the areas that have been destroyed by this A, but it will be very important that you establish complete NC with the OW. Until then I can't offer you much hope... If, however, you can end the A and establish NC then I will be open to MC and exploring the areas that got us to this point. I love you and want our relationship to survive and thrive, but we can't even begin until the A is over and NC established."

By the way... No, I'm not your H. (snicker) But it is scary how many A go down similar roads. I thought I was unique until I came here.

Good luck... talk more tonight.

2sacred

Welcome fogless and 2scared - you ARE welcome and needed here.

Remember the oxygen mask instruction before take off? - put the mask on yourself before helping others. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You can probably fudge this a little in that just by being here, you've come a long way.

Please don't hesitate to share questions and thoughts between yourselves and with other FWSs here. An open forum format affords others to absorb information that may be instructive to their situation. But as you can already see, folks are gonna want to pick your brains.

So I am in plan A with my cheating A with whom shocked me with his affair in May and immediately left without giving me a chance to survive. My story:


The night my H dropped the bomb and left, I smelled alcohol on his breath and flipped out because he has spent a night in jail cuz of driving under the influence (before I met him and during his college days). I didn't know where he was going and was scared for his safety so I contacted his entire wedding party, his parents, and some of our common friends...all people I thought he may have gone to spent the night. His friends were actually worried that he would go to a hotel and drink himself to death...again, I don't know this side of my husband; it was how he dealt with his anger/sadness in college. He did go to a hotel but I don't think my husband is an alcholic...just is not responsible when he does drink. So all of our close friends, H's parents, and my parents know of H's actions and our situation. We have not shared any info with extended family; it is my hope that we won't have to.

In the first couple weeks after the bomb, I tried to reach out to my H...kind of like a counselor, a friend would. I would try to get him to communicate about what he was discontent about, what I could do to help the situation. He said he loved me, that he'd always have feelings for me, but that he was not "in love" with me anymore and also that he did not deserve a good person like myself. He said that I had not changed since the day he fell in love and married me, that he had. He denied having any problems with depression (runs in his family) and refused to seek out counseling with me to try to help our marriage. He said, "I don't think it will help." He did lash out angrily initially and did say some very hurtful things to me that made me wonder who this person actually is...it was like I was dealing with a stranger.

After spending 10-lbs of emotional energy trying to help him, I started to refocus on myself. I have been confiding in my friends, training for triathlon (as I did when H and I were together), and continue to watch my business grow. He knows all this about me....not sure what I need to be doing to make him rediscover his love for me especially since he admits that I have not changed.

I do believe my H has insecurity issues that were heightened when he was rejected from the firefighting industry this past fall (when the affair began). We used to spend a lot of time running together and spending time with other active couples. With the firefighting coupled with his other job, the time we were able to spend together diminished. It didn't help that my business was booming and I continued my athletic success in running/triathlon; much of my time spent when he was gone was socializing with other people that are also involved in running/triathlon. I think my H was jealous because he used to be part of this and also had a lot success with running; perhaps he felt like he wasn't needed anymore because I was seeing so much success when he wasn't around (this is BS...I missed my H and I told him daily).

He had cheered me on during my first Ironman last year and even signed up to train for one this summer with me. HIs work always got in the way of workouts/time we would normally spend together so he began to think he would fail at this adventure and therefore, stopped training. And when he would finally come home from (which often was 8-9pm at night...not sure if this was actual work he was doing or his affair), he'd be exhausted and would turn the tv on. I am not one to watch him flip through channels so I'd try to talk to him or be intimate with him but he was too tired and didn't feel like doing much of anything. This hurt me because I saw him socially isolating himself from everything that had been good in his life in the past...myself, his friends, his family, athletics. He had changed. He was spending more time drinking with other single guys who don't know us as a couple (who probably encourage sleeping with many woman) and disassociating himself from our life together.

I think he is starting to realize what he has done and now the guilt is showing...BUT he has put himself in my shoes and is doing what he would probably do if the roles were reversed. He doesn't believe he deserves me and because I have not gone away, he is trying to drive me away by lying, continuing to cheat, and displaying stupid behaviors. On a positive note, he did take my advice to quit his job (which made him very unhappy) and start a new one...he seems more happier with the new job. He has kept me under his health insurance plan since starting this new job. He has started to run with some common friends of ours; I feel bad for our friends because they are kind of caught in the middle. They like H but are angry at the decisions that he has made and how he has hurt me.

As this all goes on, I continue to be in plan A. I just qualified for the World Championships in triathlon (which my H knows about), which I am training hard for. I am socializing with other groups to get me out of the house. I am working on many business ventures. I am talking daily with friends/family. I share my daily activities with him and ask about what he is up to...sometimes he responds, sometimes he doesn't. None of this is new to him though...this is my life now and was when we fell in love and got married.

I am just trying to reach out as a friend now rather than talk about our marriage. I figure if he is ready, he'll confront me. I just don't want to be sitting in a standstill for 2 years....I desire to start a family (we were talking about trying to have a baby in 2005), I want to buy a house (we started looking in the spring), and certainly desire a man (hopefully him) to share these life experiences with. I love him, I love his family, I love the life we once lived together. I am a bit confused about where his head is but continue to try to hold hope and continue to try to meet whatever emotional needs of his I can while we are separated. I have been e-mailing him about daily activities I am engaged in and asking him how his day is goiing...recently I asked him if he would like to go for a run and for some food, emphasizing it would be a laid back get-together with no deep coversation. I haven't heard from him yet...is this a big red flag that he is spending time with her? If he agrees to this, shall I wear my wedding ring around him? He hasn't worn his (at least a month ago he wasn't while I still did). I guess I am honoring the man I still love and desire back in my life.

Hope this helps! Any more feedback would be greatly appreciated!

I just LOVE your name

**fogless**

Way cool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pep

KJB23,

Wow... Okay, as I understand it he is out living somewhere and you are still at the house?

First let me address some of his behavior from my perspective. He works late and then wants to watch TV and when you initiate he declines because he is too tired?

Do you really want me to answer? This is a serious question. I can answer from a FWH perspective but it will hurt and just be opinion...since I don't really know YOUR H. Your call.

2scared

2Scared-

I had no clue of my husband's deceitful actions until he dropped the bomb on May 22nd, 2004. While I did sense something was eating at him (he is not usually so socially isolated and stand off-ish to anyone) but when I'd ask, he would just respond by saying that he had a tough day at work and that he was tired. I would often ask how I could help and he'd say that I couldn't. I even encouraged him to quit his job if it was making him that unhappy. Of course he didn't. In retrospect, when he was able to perform in bed, I now know it was because he was feeling guilty what he was doing behind my back. I am a very trusting woman...never had loved a man prior to my H so it never crossed my mind that he was having an affair <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

He didn't give me a chance to respond to his news of the affair...just left. He got a new apartment (signed a year lease), I stayed put in the lease we have together. In any attempt I have made to reach out of him, he has just ignored me or lashed out in an angry fashion.

About a week ago, he did seem to come out of the fog a bit...wishing me good luck in a race I was competing in, even stating "have fun and be healthy...can't wait to hear about it." I believe that he is just shocked that he was able to hurt someone who tranformed him, who made such a dramatic difference in his life (he had never loved a woman like he did with me).

Post bomb, I actually asked him if he pictured himself married. He said that if he wasn't able to make it work with a good person like myself that he didn't deserve marriage, that he would never get married again. I do think he could be clinically depressed and he certainly hasn't a clue how to maturely deal with cheating in a marriage. In the past, he had cheated. In fact, his first real girlfriend (of 4 years), he walked in on her having sex with his roommate freshman year in college. His friends (and wedding party) said he was very racist towards woman all through college because of this experience...basically would have 1-night stands, cheat on girlfriends, and just not respect woman at all.

There was a transformation post college though. He had another 4 year relationship with the girl prior to me...however, his mom tells me that he never loved this girl and the big joke was that "he'd never find the woman of his dreams". Then, he met me. After 1 month of dating, he called his parents and told them that they had to come out and visit...that he had met the "woman of his dreams", the "one". I met his parents and 8 months later he proposed...6 months after that, we got married. I truly believe that if a relationship is meant to be, you know immediately. I had dated guys before but never felt "love" until I met my H and it was the same with him.

H now admits to dating (I guess he could be lying) another woman. We have had minimal contact with each other. I have e-mailed him about things going on in my life and asked how he is doing but he rarely responds. I guess this may be a red flag. I actually think he may be actively seeking out any woman to try to drive me further away to make this situation easier...after all, it is a lot easier for him to think about putting this behind him like a bad dream rather than confronting me (and showing emotions/tears which would crush his broken ego), my parents, his family, our friends. His mom even wrote an apology letter to my parents.

I am not sure what I should be doing but I want to to keep some form of contact...try to deposit into his love bank even though I am feeling really depleted (and lonely...no one is meeting my needs right now). He knows how I feel yet I don't think he feels that he deserves me and is embarrassed around his friends (and therefore has spend more time drinking with other single co-workers...some of which have cheated as well). My biggest fear is that he puts himself in a vulnerable situation where he is drunk and wanting to prove something to these false friends and consequently hurts himself or someone else innocent.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I am still in utter shock that this is all happening to me...all my friends, the community is just pissed that someone could hurt someone as nice as I am. They all say that I am a trophy wife, a catch. Tears put me to sleep each night.

From your take on my situation...do you have any input from the WS point of view?

Thanks...every little bit helps now-a-days. I am trying everything to maintain my normally positive outlook on life...but I can't help to feel the damper that my H's actions of the past year have placed on my otherwise perfect life.

KJB23:

First, You ARE a catch and congratulations on qualifying on the World Championships. WOW!

Second, you H has several problems...One is a drinking problem that I have no experience in dealing with. He needs professional help.

As to the affair... Well, if he is willingly still out then it's still going on. WS's act weird to the normal eye in the midst of the fog, but they think they are logical. Example, they have sex with OW and come home to W and act distant. Push her away and aviod intimacy. They think they are being noble by not double-dipping, so they feel better about themselves. They remain distant, even stirring up fights to keep the air agitated so they don't have to talk, share, or "connect" in the marriage. This gives them a sense of justification when they leave... "After all, we were fighting all the time" or "We had just drifted apart" or "I love you but it's obvious that we're just not *in love* anymore." The truth is they purposly sabatoge the relationship to give themselves "reason" to leave. To apease the guilt.

The WS is also on a rollercoaster. When things are good with the OW then they are content to keep away, but if things are bad (and all A have their bad times) they get guilty for all the stuff they have done and get remorsefull. Even depressed and unworthy. "I'm just not good enough for a woman like you". He's right, He's not. Not at least right now, but there is still hope.

Did you hear me? There is HOPE! You need to stay focused in plan A even though you're seperated. Don't encourage the seperation but tell him that you are ready for him to come home so that you can work on the marriage. Under your roof he is much more accountable. You can't work on the M while you are seperate. Tell him he needs to seek some help for his drinking...he already knows that inside...he just needs help giving him encouragement and direction.

I understand the loneliness! I'm still alone and HUNGER just to be held again. I understand the tears too. Hang in there and don't give up yet. You need to also take this time to discover information about the OW. You will need that so you can expose the A to the public and use pressure from outside to end the A. Watch out for depression...he might need professional help and AD.

And finally, surround yourself with a strong support group of friends that are PRO-MARRIAGE. There are plenty out there that will tell you to "dump the jerk and get someone else". You need encouragement not people who are going to bash you and encourage divorce.

The trithion thing is awesome...GREAT JOB!

(((((KJB23)))))

2scared

Thanks for the post 2scared.

Sorry I didn't read it until this afternoon.

I really DO mean it when I say FWH's like you and Fogless do give the rest of us hope for the future of our marriages.

And anyone who writes about their marriage success stories helps BS's who are feeling lost in the sad state of their own marriage.

Really, all the stories of what the WH says while in the A are all alike! It's frightening! Is there really a handbook for them? Do they take a night course? (sorry for the bad play on words, there)

2scared... after reading your post to kjb23, I thinks you have missed your calling! You would make a great MC.

kjb23... you GO girl! Triathletes are soooo cool! And you competed in an Ironman? Awesome! Ironman triathletes kick butt!! I am sorry to hear about your marriage. You're getting some good advice here. Keep your chin up! ((((HUGS)))

AND FOGLESS!!! Where are you? Didn't mean to threadjack you! Like I said before, you guys give us hope. Post away to your heart's content... you won't get threadjacked all the time, (I personally like to watch the back and forth of a threadjack...you see some INTERESTING, diverse opinions!).

I feel the same for you FWH's that I feel for my husband - he's a good person who got himself into a bad situation. I know he hurts, and I know you guys do too. My heart goes out to you.

(((((2scared & Fogless))))) Keep on keepin' on, guys! You're doing an amazing job, just by being here!

K72172

K72172, I'm here, have not tucked my tail and run off yet...

will be happy to share my thoughts/opinions here for you BWs to read. will not promise what I have to say will be sugar coated. I'm not one for alot of words, usually just say what I think, quickly to the point. Of course that's one of the things that got me here, I never opened up and communicated enough to my wife, but I'm working on that.. so guess I will try and catch up on this thread since my last post...

fogless~~

Hey Fogless!

Glad you are still around!

As for your opinions and advice to BW's, I don't know about any of the other BW's, but I have had my fill of beating around the bush, and sugar coated lies.

All that goes on in the head of the opposite sex is a mystery to me.

I have gotten some insight since reading here, and reading Dr. Harley's books - especially His Needs/Her Needs.

You and 2scared, and all the other FWS's have my support. And if I can be of any help to anyone (even with my meager experience in this type of situation), they only need ask.

It's similar to what I do for a living. I have always had real compassion for anyone who truly needs help and support.

I have had a 32 year long nursing career meeting far too many people who try to suck me in to get what they want, and too few who have a genuine need. And I often find that even people who try to suck you in have genuine needs, but they either don't know what they are, or don't know how to ask for help.

I do not expect people to be grateful to me when I help them. My personal reward is to know that I truly have helped someone. It's what keeps me going.

This forum is full of the type of people who truly want to help someone when they need it most.

So tell us more of your story, Fogless. I'll bet you will find real compassion here.

Thanks for your courage.....K7