what about the kids ? contrary to popular opinion, and as much as most political posturing might suggest, the damage done to children and their extended recovery from separation & divorce usually has already been done . . . way before the actual separation and/or divorce. sorry if i routinely confuse you with the facts, but you appear to be all talkiing about "your" needs, and what is best for "your" wife or husband. and yet, i am stoned by the sandhedrin for speaking the truth about real issues that will not go away. <P>ever precious is the institution of marriage . . . agreed . . . <P>but the fact still remains. children today are revolting and increasingly expressing their anger for this "institution" when supposed adults cling to ancient traditional values that no longer hold true as we approach the 21st Century. women are gaining more freedom of existance, and choice, in our culture and the growing pains of acceptance are rather obvious here. <P>equal opportunity means exactly that . . . and women no longer are bound by the economic suppression our parents routinely enforced and endured.<P>so where does infidelity play a role in what is best for the children ? is trial separation all that unreasonable when any doubt as to the emotional health of all concerned is questioned ? is the idea of having a man be as supportive as i am sincerely trying to be all that unreasonable ? are you all that afraid of losing what "you" want to the point of remaining so tunnel-visioned to the needs of your children ?<P>you work, and come home, and have a drink or two and argue. the lingering bitterness is self-evident. i catch a lot of this bitterness just for being a man, i guess. but without open and honest dialog nothing is resolved. this is why i remain here for my lady friend. however complex this situation becomes, i am one person who will support her either way . . . reconcilliation, or divorce. <P>God wants us to help one another, even if the norm is to abandon our word for the sake of self-justification after giving it to a trusted soul. <P>Am I all that horrible of a person for just being realistic ? Our political and pastorial leaders would advise pursuing all avenues of keeping a sick marriage together for the sake of the children, when the damage has already been done in most cases. It is not the divorce that causes the wounds. It is the premlinary jousting and sparing that is destroying the little hearts of confused children who are lost to all of the indecisions displayed in this forum.<P>And yes, I am learning a great deal here. Obviously, marriage is not for me. I have always believed that if you truly love someone, you set them free . . . yet unconditionally offer forgiveness and acceptance when asked . . .

You are so incredibly boring ....

Carlton<P>Quit confusing your true intentions. You are gathering resources to lure MWW away from her family. There is no way you can dispute the info here at MB that will help MWW rebuild her family and love her her H.<P>This site is dedicated to rebuilding a marriage and you are not at that stage with MWW. Check us out after you accomplish your task of getting the MWW, I am sure you will then need the info here at MB.<P>

Carlton,<BR>Do you think your views would be different if you were married and your wife was having an affair? Do you think that maybe you would try with everything you have to hold your marriage together?<BR>Yes I agree, you should not save a marriage just for the sake of the kids. And yes I agree that a lot of damage can and is done prior to a divorse. <P>------------------<BR>That which does not kill us, will make us stronger.<BR>* Viki<P>

hello carlton, I am not sure that you will hear what I say, so will keep it short and pointed. Please forgive me if it come across in a less than ffriendly tone! Not meant that way.<BR>What have you been reading lately? It sounds to me that you have focused on popular press, not on reality. Our press would have one believe all sorts of interesting things and most of it is written with a crisis mentality-with a very narrow pov. Open your mind carlton, dissect what you are seeing in a realistic way! You are stating that you are being realistic while others are not...but are you? There are millions of people that still believe in the institute of marriage, and believe that it is a more stable basis for children. <BR>We could focus on the dismal stats or focus on the negative press that family and marriage have had over the yrs, but why? There is so much positive to be found in marriage and family. <BR>Rebel against the institution? Of course-that is nature, is it not? To question authority. Many instances come to mind-where were you in the 60's? Probably not born...but it is a glaring example of rebelliousness with positive outcomes for society.<BR>You have some interesting points. Carlton, look deeper than the adage to set something free.

Hey buddy, walk a mile in our shoes and then see how easy/possible it is to offer "unconditional forgiveness". You have no right coming here and judging us. If you want to give us your thoughts fine but people here are hurting and don't need to hear comments coming from a guy like you who can't possibly understand how it feels. <BR>

There was no damage done to my children before she split. They thought we were the "perfect couple." Took 'em COMPLETELY by surprise! They have not blamed me for anything & they wonder what the f^ck Mom is doing? Why doesn't she love us type stuff. She didn't just leave the house, she moved 2000 miles away. How could they think she is just pissed off at me? Why not stay in town? DUH!

Your posts are so disjointed that I can only assume you are plagiarizing from several philosophy books that your mommy helped you pick out from the big people section at your local library.<P>Your high school pick lines in your other threads may get you into the pants of a few woman, but certainly won't get you into their heart. You have no concept of marriage, mature love, commitment, or children for that matter.<P>Carlton, if you are the model of the "OM", then you indeed give us guys hope. I thought my competition was far more intelligent than you. <P>I suppose the entertainment factor you are receiving from us will wear off soon.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz<P>huh? what? did somebody say something?<P>zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

pndvj > "my wife" . . " my marriage" ??<P>my point exactly . . . Who's kids ? Thought we were all God's children . . . even the sinners like me.<P>cl > yes, i am a child of the 60's . . . we know what it is like to fight a losing war, yet found peace with honor. the national guard was gunning down unarmed college kids for speaking the truth that what we now, some 30 years later all know was correct. will our society look back at these pages arhived somewhere, and wonder how groupthink became so prevasive in our culture when our children blatantly screamed out for us to open our eyes, and our hearts, to the unthinkable ? <P>sir hurts alot > nah, i am no "model" of the OM . . . most OM would have listened to this forum, and lost the courage to persevere through the toughest of times . . . most OM don't accept the notion of unconditional love . . .

I do believe. But you seem to hide behind him. You seem to twist the good words and meanings to suit your purposes. I don't know who you think you are. And I'm not sure why you came here. All you have done since you have been here is put everyone down for trying to save their marriages, something you know nothing about seeing you have never been married. Do you really feel qualified in talking about something you have never experenced? My mother always said, if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. I do wish you would take that advice.<BR>P.S. If you plan on giving me a ration of **** (something you seem to live to do here) save your breath, I am not going to waste any more of my valuable time on an blowhard like you.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Viki (edited September 17, 1999).]

Carlton, you give me the "ick" so bad. I recently had a man come after me to "rescue" me. No, I'm not a child. I don't need rescuing from my bad marriage. I have integrity and won't be screwing anyone else until...hopefully until the divorce is final, if not, well, not this week anyway. (I'm living one day at a time, like you, but I can project this one through the week.)<P>Hey, all of you who pray, and the rest of you that Carlton is driving nuts, there is nothing finer than to pray for his salvation and that he will be convinced and convicted of sin, righteousness, and judgement. <P>I just LOVE God.

hi carlton, so you are a child of the sixties? Then why do you say we know what it is like to fight a losing war? Explain please! The technical war (VN) was lost, but the others spawned were all won-we as a society won so very much! And we lost so very much too-good and bad. Yes, my friends and relatives were killed for less than sane reasons, but hasn't it always been that way to a point? <BR>Anyway that is a moral and political area for me...one that I have reflected on for yrs every memorial day when I visit the oldest brother's grave thousands of miles away. I do that because though I am rebellious and question authority I like to think I have a healthy balance between that and tradition. <BR>Oh now we are getting closer to your issue? Tradition? Family values and morals...those that we hold dear and precious. Maybe some of them should not hold that place in our hearts? Maybe like you view marriage and committment? <BR>Carlton I assure you that my marriage was very much as chris describes his. There was no apparent unhappiness, the children were well adjusted, smart, witty, and secure! It is not always how you have described at all. The marriage is what helped them become what they are today-two adults sharing the love of family with them. Two adults in their life to give them perspectives that did not always mesh! <BR>Now my children are not quite as secure, but they are doing pretty good considering the traumas of the last year. They have grown, and it is not all bad! SOme of what they have seen will mold them into better people, but they had the distinct advantage of being older than many kids affected by infidelity. One son was in college, though he dropped a semester this past Jan due to stress/partying. He is enrolled again, and he is determined not to be such a 'player'. So, he has learned-he has taken the good lessons from the bad. Younger kids cannot do this like the older ones-they do not have the ability to reason-they do not have the coping skills. <BR>Yep, carlton I am lecturing you on kids since you said you did not have any! I am hearing some of the things my kids might have said when they were younger...carlton, why are you being selfish? You are a much better person than to put your own needs before that of her children. Please open your pov just a little-I think you want to but are not sure how? <BR>sorry-no spell checker on this puter<p>[This message has been edited by cl (edited September 17, 1999).]

Love means letting the other go free? And offering forgiveness and acceptance? Okay. Totally agree. Been there. Done that. Would you like to read my profile?<P>Sending up another prayer, Carlton.

Carlton<BR>I've tried really hard to stay away from you. I just want to make a suggestion. If you are so bored that you need to play here, why don't you go pick up a copy of "Private Lies" and read it?<BR>It will give you answers to a lot of the questions you pretend to want the answers for.

But the National Guard quit shooting. You‘ve still got the gun in your hand AND you’re reloading.<P>Gimme a break Carlton. With your attitude, I think we all understand why you were never married.

Carlton I hate to keep your thread going but I feel some things should be said.<P>1. You've never committed to marriage. Perhaps your vows will be different with this MW, but most of us meant what we said.<P>2. You've never had kids. Except in severe cases most kids don't understand why one parent prefers to be with someone else. The betrayed spouse is left to explain everything without trashing the betrayer. The hurt those kids feel is real, and will affect them for the rest of their lives.<P>3. When a spouse breaks those vows they act completely irrationally to the extent that they don't realise the consequences of their actions even when it hurts the kids they love.<P>My suspicion is that the OM, like yourself is also in a fantasy land beyond reason, beyond reality and that any appeal to do the right thing can be easily dismissed.<P>It's not about ownership. Although I don't believe in divorce it is a reality. If there were no kids in our marriage and I knew my wife was in reality mode I would probably agree to a divorce because I do love her and do want her to be happy. My reality is that there are kids, they don't understand why she continues to hurt them and my goal is to reduce the hurt if we divorce, but be in a position to attempt reconcilliation if that is where this goes. I just wish that she could come to her senses even if the decision to divorce were the same, so that we could all understand we are doing what is best for everyone.

Hello Carlton,<BR>Im new at this and have alot of trouble also of course. I would be happy to give you an outline of myself if you would be interested but for right now I can only express that Im sorry for you,myself,and all of us who are struggling! Im not sure if you are feeling up to caring right now and I think most of us lose interest from time to time. God must know we need help,just I think most of the time we only have each other.I dont really think it matters who you are in this as we all are guilty at some point.Yes the kids are affected by everything we do and say so all I can offer is leave all alone be good and try not to hate,find for yourself what is really respectful and if anger is a problem than space may be a direction making things worse than now.Fighting for me never makes things better. Hope you find peace,be cool.3wishes