<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Another teary night last night. At the bbq, I hung out with two couples that are friends of both H and I. It was very bitter sweet to be there alone and watch them cuddling together while I interacted with them yet felt lonely thinking about H. Everyone wants what is best for me but seem to be doubt H's motives after all that he has done to me despite my kindess to him. I have to be honest that it really hurts when H doesn't pick up my calls, return my calls..seems to only reply to my e-mails. While he has been nice in the e-mails, he has rejected me time and time again. Once again, I feel like an old toy that he is just picking up and slamming down time and time again while he flaunts his new toy with a smirk/smile in front of my face.

Does he really care about me since he doesn't seem to have any motivation to see me? It is really hard to swallow when I am pouring out my heart and soul to H and receiving nothing in return. What about my love bank? I guess I am in need of inspiring again...as I let him be, what exactly should I be doing...continuing to send him postcards, e-mails, calls or just stop contacting him until he starts to return the favor?

Thanks! Just got back from an 80 mile ride and I am off to eat more food to replenish...trying to use all these Labor Day parties/BBQ's to gain back the 10 lbs of emotional weight H caused me to lose this summer!

KJB,
Have you heard of a 180? Michele Weiner-Davis on Divorcebusting.com--she has some books as well, advocated this when the spouse is still ambivalent. Plan A is great, but if your H knows of all your great qualities and has seen changes in you that he desired, then you might want to throw him a bit off balance. All this pursuing should stop. Whatever you usually do, you do something different. I know that there is an old post on here about this, maybe if you search you can find it.

He is kind of doing the same thing with you by replying to emails, but rejecting all offers. Try something new.

kjb

I like Anne's suggestion. In other respects you seem to be very strong... is it possible to transfer the strength you have in runninig to this?
H

Earlier on, I was ignoring him. While he would ask his mom if she had heard from me, he didn't talk to me and pretty much never e-mailed me (unless he needed something). I am not sure how driving each other farther from each other will help rekindle our love??? Actually, I don't doubt that there is still love that exists between us...I believe his ego is small right now and he is just plain ashamed to be around me after all that he has done to me, a person he knows many people respect in the community.

I am just crushed that he doesn't seem to miss the wonderful times we spent together these past 5 years. How can you just shut a person out of your life completely when there is so much history and so much love that existed between us? I don't know how to cope anymore. It is all I frickin think about and it drives me crazy! I just want to know what he is thinking about but am afraid to ask him about it...can't stand the thought of rejection and my emotions have been so fragile these past few months that I have compromised my own health thinking about him. So many good things are going on in my life right now yet I feel empty when I can share it with him.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I am so confused, so sad, so lost, so lonely.

-K

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kjb23:
<strong> I am just crushed that he doesn't seem to miss the wonderful times we spent together these past 5 years. How can you just shut a person out of your life completely when there is so much history and so much love that existed between us?
-K </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KJB23,
He does remember, believe me he does! I always remembered, but I was so fogged for so long. OW can be crafty yah know? I see it so clearly now, I remember when my W was being herself. My W loved me, was warm, laid back, secure about our M, meanwhile I was seeing OW and she was anything but laidback, she was pulling out all the stops. Everyday was like a SHOW, the BIG SHOW! Still I never forgot how much I loved my W! I loved her so much I spent the next 4 years of my life tying to get her back! I spent 2 years trying to get her back physically, and right up to now...I've spent 2 more years trying to get her back emotionally. I screwed up big time and I knew I'd lost the best woman in the world!! Your H knows he's screwing up and I believe he will wake up eventually an do something about it. I just hope he doesnt do so much damage that he becomes too afraid to return. I also hope that you don't give up on him, that's why I love Plan B. My W hadn't heard of MB and didn't hve much support. Everyone in her life just told her to move on, I wish she would've Plan B'd me far sooner! Move on to non-MB folks means "FIND SOMEONE ELSE". Let me shutup because I'm rambling. He hasn't forgotten a thing, he's just fogged and addicted. Take care of yourself and realize he hasn't forgotten all those good times and those good times will pick away at his fog as he goes over and over in his mind how much of an idiot he's being. I'm sorry for your pain, and as a FWH and a BS I relate all too well to both sides. You are a terrific person and don't think for a second you H thinks otherwise. Infact, he's esteem is probably so low right now, he might think he's unworthy of you. Itz'da'Dang FOG! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

kjb23
I've read some of your posts and have this thought...maybe you've already addressed it and if so, sorry for bringing it up again.

Is it possible that your H feels overshadowed by your athletic commitment? Does he feel he comes in 2nd to your love for your sport?

From some of your posts that I've read (and I'm sorry I haven't read them all) you're obviously very committed to and very successful with your running. And it's great to have your own interests, success and identity. But does he think (rightly or wrongly -- it doesn't really matter) that you love your sport more than you love him? Is it possible that he wants to be #1 in his mate's life, and doesn't feel that way with you?

Is it imperative to you that your spouse is comfortable with your dedication to your sport?

If you skipped a race now and then in deference to him, would that maybe make a difference in his perception of your priorities? This is just a thought...Again, sorry if you've already explored this.

H and I actually met on a run; at the time, he was more active in the sport than I was yet I supported his vision, even paced him in during his quest to break the 3 hour barrier for the marathonb(which he handily succeeded in). This past year, I started doing triathlon and strived towards my dream of becoming an Ironman. I completed it last June yet told H after I finished that I no longer wanted to train this hard because I wanted to spend time with him. He encouraged me to continue pursuing my dream of qualifying for the World Championships which I finally did in August and now will be competing in Kona in October. In fact, he even said he wanted to try it as well so I bought him a bike, a wetsuit, and all the necessary gear so we could compete in a triathlon together. He seemed excited at first but then work started to get in the way (late hours, a power tripping boss, stress, etc.). As I trained and worked, H was working hard towards becoming a firefighter and was fulfilling a full time position during the week and volunteering 24 hours on weekends. As my career (athletically and business) blossomed, he got rejection letter after rejection letter from the firefighting industry. I tried to lift his spirits, even encouraging him to drop the job he hated so he could focus full time on going to get his paramedic license. He got as far as having the paramedic app filled out but seemed scared to put it in the mail (I think he feared he would get rejected again). All his hard work also took him away from the running/athletics that he was extremely successful in when we first met. I think it was hard for him to see me so actively involved in teh community he used to participate in and perhaps it was hard for him to watch me succeeding as he took hit after hit from rejection letters. I tried to tell him how proud I was of him but this all had a profound effect on his psyche and I think it really triggered an outlash of unhealthy, uncharacteristic behavior that unfortunately has directly affected me, our marriage. I am really trying to stay focused on the intense love I feel for the confident man I married who seemingly has been overtaken by this lost boy with very low self esteem. I think he is conscious of his ugly behavior but cannot stand the thought of showing face around the person he loves so dearly and has hurt. I don't know how else he is dealing with shutting me out of his life.

He hasn't called me like he had said he would on Friday which is really depressing to me. I just want to hold him and help lift that fog I know will bring the confident man that I married back into light. I just can't help a person who seems to be content on ignoring me...not sure what to do next?

Thanks for all your help and continued guidance!

-K

PS...Happy Labor Day

It seems like you both had the same dream, but for him, work got in the way. So he backed himself off from his dream, and then he was rejected from the work he'd like to do.

It hurts to give up a passion, and it seems like that's what running was to him, and maybe the triathalon was too. He probably does want you to succeed at it. But it might also be painful to him to know that he's no longer in a position to train at the highest level. So possibly (and I'm just throwing things out here because I've felt them myself) he's dealing with knowing he won't attain his athletic goal. He sees you attaining it, and feels the pain of his loss. He might feel that the pain will be less if he finds a separate life.

You certainly have a right to pursue your goal. Maybe he's waiting for you to achieve it and to come back to his current (more sedate) lifestyle and interests. Again, I'll suggest that seeing you compete at the highest level, while he's happy for you, may be painful for him.

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: haywire ]</small>

I guess it just hurts that he admits that I am the same woman he fell in love with 5 years ago and married in 2001. He knew from the day that we met that I was very driven, both athletically and with my career. He used to be proud of my accomplishments, rather than jealous? It isn't fair for him to push me away just because I am successful! I have done a lot to try to boost his shattered ego and lift his poor self esteem. I have tried to get him involved but I think he is ashamed to run a slower pace than what people are accustomed to watching him run. I know that he needs to seek help for insecurities he has but am afraid that he will never do it.

He has done a lot to make me a proud wife and I tell him daily (even now after all the hurt he has caused me). I just don't know what I can do to help convince him that he is successful and very deserving of my love. I know I CANNOT compromise the success I happen to have in sport or career just because he is jealous...this isn't fair to me. I want him to support my dreams, my aspirations as I have with his.

Any more input is greatly appreciated ( :

Finally gave in...after saying he would call me, he never did this weekend so I called him. Surprisingly, he finally picked up (after about 7 rings). And we actually had a conversation. I know he hates talking on the phone so our 10 minute conversation was a big improvement. I basically asked him about his weekend, how he was doing. I focused on him, shedding only a little about what I was doing because I wanted to show my interest in his activities. I also told him how happy and proud I was; he said thank you. He ended the call, however, with a yawn which is kind of depressing...no love you or talk to you soon, just goodbye. Not the perfect scenario..I would like to hear him opening up more to the possibility of our reconcilation. Did I do the right thing in calling him? Did I handle myself ok? What else should I have done?

Thanks!

-K

K,

Laughing... you did wonderful! You simply are plagued with the same disease that most of us are dying with...

The complete and total lack of patience that causes a panic in the depths of your gut and makes you want to scream, kick something and then dive into dispair because life as we know it is over.... all in one 24 hour period.

Relax. Take your time. You're doing fine! Pull out a photo of you two snuggled up at a finish line on some race you ran last year. (lots of smiles) I know you have one. Put it in a card and mail it to him with a note like "Oh my gosh, we ARE great together...don't you EVER forget that! I miss you, K"

Good luck.

2scared

Well, I went to his new apartment today to pick up my new insurance card (he kept me under his insurance when he started a new job last month) and mail that had been forwarded to him. He acted nice but did seem a bit nervous or on edge. I was wearing my wedding ring but he was not. Any thoughts as to what this means? He used to wear it on his right hand but now does not wear it???

He did stumble a bit, dropping the insurance card and saying are you cold as he looked down at my breasts. I kind of laughed...said, oh is it obvious (ha ha ha). I guess he still is somewhat sexually interested even though all it has been is hugs goodbye. I kind of want to try to kiss him but not sure if that would be a good idea. Just the friendly e-mail communication has been a HUGE step for him and has helped my motivation a bit even though I hate being rejected for dates!

He doesn't seem to want to talk about our future yet...am assuming that I should NOT bring this up despite an intense desire to do so. I like the idea of the card...will do that soon. In fact, he was always sexually aroused when I wore a particular animal print underwear of mine so I bought a card with the animal on it and will enclose my "scented" undies along with a picture of us and write "We are great together. I sure do miss you. Love always, K". Sounds over the top but if I can't meet his physical needs, this seems like the best way to try <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks again for all the advice...it has helped me tremendously. I look forward to hearing more each day!

-K

K-

How did you competition go? How are you doing with WH?

2scared

I'm back...actually was in Wisconsin doing part of the Ironman as training for the World Championships next month in Kona! Am with family now until Thursday when I return to Cali. I had a great time and did quite well...gives me confidence for my upcoming race.

I did have a breakdown while walking around with my mom the day before the race. There were so many "Iron" couples strolling their toddlers/babies around, and sharing their love for each other. And my mom is on cloud nine after becoming a grandma to 2 beautiful babies (one is my sisters, one is my brothers) this past year so she gets excited around all babies. I became depressed and started crying because I picture H and I rolling our baby to various events that we compete in together or support each other in. We were going to start trying to begin a family after I competed in the World Championships in October...it is something that we were looking forward to because it opened up another chapter in our lives together. Now that has been taken away from me and I fear that I will never be given the chance start a family with the love of my life. My brother and sister starting families is so exciting yet so demoralizing right now. I am happy and depressed/sad at the same time if that makes sense at all?

I sent H the intimate card I talked about; he should receive it close to when I return home. It will be interesting to see if he responds to it at all. H has failed to call me to see how the Ironman went. He was supposed to compete in this race with me so I thought he'd at least contact me to see how I liked the event. Should I be taking a hint when he doesn't contact me? I want to hold hope but it is hard thinking about my family and friends never seeing him in the same "light" again. They frown upon what he has done to me, the affair and beyond, and question his loyalty to me. I am following my heart and told them that they need to respect the fact that I am trying to rebuild my marriage and will have to potentially be open to the possibility of him coming home with me again someday.

Is H acting nice to me in e-mail out of guilt or is he showing signs that he may be willing to come home? After all, he hasn't directly rejected my requests that he come home and has not lashed out to my nice e-mails reminiscing about our good times together and also is seemingly absorbing my requests for sharing love again someday????

Thanks,

K

FWH's - fogless, 2scared, and others...
I hope you will forgive me for sticking this in here like this. I haven't read this whole thread, but I've read a little. 2scared, I read your post in the beginning about WS lying...
I was just hoping for some of your opinions on this. STBXWH and I are now divorcing and I have no desire to turn back now, but I still have questions in my mind I wish i had answers to.

WH got got way too close with our mutual friend over a period of a couple year(married - her H friends w/us too, her daughter, best friends w/ours). When I began to question him he denied having feelings for her but admitted to spending time at her home while her H was at work (her daughter, 3, was there) and confiding to her about his personal problems (using the excuse she is a trained social worker). Meanwhile he was withdrawing from me big time. She moved out of state and he went into a deep depression for a couple months (withdrawl?). Finally, he told me he didn't think he loved me anymore, he was numb to me, etc. Still denied feelings for her. I found cell phone bill w/ 99 hours between them in 2 1/2 months. Finally, he admits that he is in love with her, but still adamantly denies anything sexual. He acts weird - almost more interested in her daughter than ours, sends the daughter gifts, etc. He also acts extremely interested in her second pregnancy, even arranging for a big gift for her shower.
He cuts off contact, from what I can tell for a couple months. Then, out of the blue he contacts her again, then moves out of the house. (Her husband knows about ALL of this, yet thinks his wife is in no way at fault and still allows contact, and is even friendly w/WH.)

Do any of you think it is possible that there was never a PA? If not, is he just completely crazy? If so, why would he STILL lie about it, even after we are done? (I guess maybe to protect her?) I mean, strangely, I kind of believe him, but NO ONE else that knows the situation does...

What do you all, as men and FWHs think about this?

FH&L,

I love the name...I Cor 13:13...one of my favorites.

Okay, let me try to explain the WH and fog/withdrawl. By the way...Fogless, jump in here too. To answer your question about the PA...Yes, I think he is/has had a PA with the OW. This is America and you're innocent until proven guilty, but as a rule women give sex to get love and men give love to get sex. Now, let me break that down even more. Women have to FEEL love before they can open up and share on a sexual level, but men don't FEEL the depth of the love emotion until they experience sex. Sex tends to be the glue that unites the mans heart to the woman. At least as a powerful emotion.

Sooooo, for your H to feel that attached and in love...to the point that he is depressed and going through withdrawl...that he wants to leave... Okay, He had sex.

Now, let me go further. I don't want to underplay the EA. An EA is a very powerful force to be dealt with. But what I have seen is that the EA DRAWS the woman/man into the A by meeting unmet needs, but also provides the security and safety in the R that enables and gives "permission" to have the PA. Otherwise the PA becomes "usery" and "cheap". If the EA is there then the PA seems validated..."After all, we're in love".

Once the EA has turned into PA (EA+PA) than the A is VERY difficult to break off without depression and withdrawl. Trust me...the depression and withdrawl are INTENSE emotions even when you KNOW the A is sin and wrong. It was incredible to go through. I knew what I was doing was wrong, I knew I had to stop it and get out, yet it felt like my heart was being ripped out until I got through the withdrawl...then lights come on and the fog begins to lift. I remember looking around and thinking "How in the heck did I get here?" It takes work to get out.

So...to answer. Yes, I THINK (IMHO) that your H has had PA. I think they started into withdrawl and felt the pain and reconnected. So watch out. WH's are shifty. If he knows your watching the cell bill he will go get a "secret" A-phone or lock out the ability for you to see it. Stay involved. Stay on your toes. Watch...

Is she out of state? Is he traveling? Is he out of the house?

Good luck and don't hesitate to ask more questions...that's what we're here for.

2scared

2scared, thanks so much for your input.

I don't do any watching or checking anymore because we've been separated 6 months now and we are *this close* to the D being final.

I do know that he is still in contact with her (she lives in NC he lives in FL). He travels to visit occasionally. Her H even allows him to stay in their home. He talks to her on the phone often, from what I can tell because she calls when we are doing kid exchanges. He gives our D gifts that she sent. He has no reason to hide their contact because we are divorcing now, plus they have always held firm to the story that she is just a good friend who wants to be there for him, wants to help him, and did everything she could to turn him back to me. That is what is so frustrating and annoying. they don't just deny things, they claim that she was/is MY friend, with no intentions except to help...Ugghh!!!

Now that we are divorcing WHY can't I just have the TRUTH??? The only thing I can think of is that: 1. She doesn't want to divorce her H, so not telling is a protective measure for her.
2. She cannot come to terms with being a "homewrecker" because she is a total co-dependent and it would send her into some kind of shock if she had to admit that to herself
3. It would ruin her reputation as the bleeding heart/do-gooder and she'd be an outcast in her small community in which we have many mutual friends.

But the question remains: Over the course of the months this was all coming out, she and her husband both claimes (to me) that WH was obsessive, even scary in his behavior. That it at times had bordered on stalking. She called him a coward, telling him that he was using her as a scapegoat or using her to hurt me. Wouldn't he get fed up with being the bad guy? Wouldn't he get really angry, possibly enough to expose things? Plus, he REALLY wanted out of our M, he pushe me away as much as he could and didn't mind hurting me. That would possibly have put the nail in the coffin sooner, which would have made him happy, right?

Is it possible that he really is just sick and obsessive and living in a fantasy worls that she is enabling because of her own psycholigical problems (co-dependency and childhood sexual abuse)?

See how my mind would be spinning? I just wish i knew the truth!

flh04,

Your WH is definately in withdrawl, and OWs H is in denial.... I agree with 2scared, there has been a PA, and don't underestimate the power of the EA.

I personally don't think an EA always leads to a PA, nor does the EA always come first. Regardless, your WH is smothering in the fog. He has reached the point he no longer can determine what is real and what he thinks is real. The EA is like a mirage, you so desperately want to believe something is right that you evenually convince yourself it is... Once to that point, you will be amazed at what the human mind will allow you to do... Your WH stating he no longer loves you is just one example.

The couple of months there was no contact may have been an attempt to stop the A, WHs actually do that sometimes.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But unfortunately the EA/PA is purely an addiction and one that is very hard to break...

So to answer your question, No, I don't think it was possible for there to never have been a PA.. Why does he still lie about it, that's because he is ashamed of it, and rather than admit it, will continue to lie about it... Like 2scared said, WHs are shifty...

so hope some of what 2scared and I have said will give you the answers you were looking for, sorry no sugar coating here....

fogless...

Thanks, fogless, and don't worry, I have no need for sugar-coating!

Why do I honestly believe it's possible he didn't have a PA? I have ruled out denial or the fear of being hurt by it. I know it's not that. Am I just that gullible, I just give people that much benefit of the doubt? MAYBE it's because I still think of WH as the person he WAS - the person who would NEVER do that, and I somehow, insanely believe that OW maybe did just have good intentions gone wrong because for years I only knew the "good, helpful, caring" side of her???

I think I will show him this exchange. I would love to know the truth, once and for all. The problem is what if, by some small chance, it IS the truth there was no PA? Would I ever TRULY believe it?

FH&L,

I agree, not all EA's lead to PA's and The PA might come first...but it appears they have had a PA. It's just a gut feeling.

It also sounds like the OW is the one who attempted to end the A and you H didn't want to let go (thus the stalking, calling and feelings of psycho man). When I ended my A the OW went psycho and flipped emotions like a light switch. People in an A sometimes make love-agreements. Let me explain....

They might have agreed to tell the story of no PA. That way there is less "hurt" to deal with for everyone else and only they know the truth. I had such an agreement but broke it at the last minute as I was telling my W. I told the truth. I figured if I lost both women at least I could look at myself in the mirror and know I had finally told the truth...And I wanted to restore the M based on truth not a lie. If your H has such an agreement it might be because the OW fear how her H will react since she has decided to stay in her M. He might be covering for her.

He probably doesnt care to tell but won't until the OW releases him from his protective vow. Sounds weird I know...but it happens.

2scared