The really bad part first:

I am a FWW. I had 2 A's over 8 years ago. Each lasted 1 year. There are reasons, but no excuses.
D-day occurred 3 years after the end of the 2nd A when I could not handle the guilt and couldn't bear to continue to lie
to my DH through omission. At that time I was 38 weeks pregnant with our second child. (Our first child was born
a year and 1/2 after the 2nd A ended, and I had lapsed into clinical depression and severe anxiety.- now controlled through medication and therapy.)
We had NC with either person by the time D-day arrived, which I think (hope) made it easier for my DH. He was angry, upset and obviously bitterly hurt and confused.
However, he said he was not interested in D and that as the A's had happened years before and we had built our lives since then, that he could move on
with me. I was so incredibly grateful that he didn't kick me out as I richly deserved. I love him- and never for one moment had contemplated a D while
in the midst of either A. (Why did I do what I did? As I said- reasons such as immaturity, a very young marriage, lack of experience with other men (we had
started dating when I was 16 etc etc etc…obviously no excuses, but perhaps the info might help you understand me a little better.)

It is now 5+ years post D-day…and I still feel like I haven't gotten my DH back. We have had another child now.. He is a fabulous father to our 3 children and a good husband. But - he is emotionally distant from me. I can understand this. I really can. But, I don't want to live like this forever. I have asked (BEGGED) that he seek IC - or MC with me- or both. (I feel that my own IC was so beneficial to me.) He absolutely REFUSES. I have asked him to read the basic concepts and articles on this site and to work with me to build the marriage I know we could have. He REFUSES- says over-analyzing makes things worse and not better.

We have always both been strong-willed, opinionated and passionate people. I miss him. I miss being close to him, and I miss having any sense of peace about our relationship. I feel like he is just waiting to explode. Another piece of info that may- or may not- help in answering me. I am the major income producer for our family while my DH stays home with our children.

What can I do to repair and rebuild my marriage? Please help.

Thanks.

I am a FWW and we are early in our recovery. I have no advice for you but want you to know I will pray for you and your family. It does give me hope that you have made it 5 years. My H was very against MC and still does not attend all sessions but has come for a few. I too do want to be close to him again and I feel where you are coming from with this.
My prayers are with you.
Hang in there- I honestly believe God does not bring up so far to let us fail.

Welcome to MB SadFWW.
What reason did you give your H to either try MC or come here to read some of the basic concepts ?

It sounds like he's become distant to protect himself from this...which will come crashing down around him if he doesn't really learn to work through it and forgive.

You could try something painfully honest, and let him know that you want a better M. Tell him the M feels unfilled right now, and you want to build something monumental.

This won't be easy..and we'll have to keep trying different things.

I really think he never processed what happened, and he's afraid of opening those old wounds. But once he understands they never really healed, he may be open to something else.

Keep waiting for others to post. Hang in there, it's good you found this site. You'll find a wealth of support and advice !!

Sad,

If you don't mind I need to ask a few questions. The reason is that what is going on may NOT be directly associated with your Affairs.

So could you give me a time line, of when you became the major bread winner?

Where did the Affairs fall in your marriage (I mean at what years of your marriage and what were your ages?)

Is the decision for him to stay home an economic one, or is it something that just sort of happened?

Has he shown a lack of interest in other things besides the marriage since or even before the A's?

What makes you think he is not "back"?

I would like to know why you had the A's and why you had them and did NOT contemplate leaving your H?

Were you the major breadwinner when you had the A's?

I ask all of these things because the natural answer is that he is protecting himself as BIJ mentioned. However, the answer to his lack of being "back" may be depression. It may be just a general malaise due to him seeing no future for himself. It could be a variety of things.

Permit me to ask you another question. Do you two talk alot? Did you and he talk about the affairs alot? Is your sexlife better or worse before, during or after the A's?

What I am looking for here is to understand a bit of where he may becoming from so that I might offer a suggestion that is useful.

Have you read the book His Needs Her Needs by Harley? Have you read the articles on this site about Love busters, needs, and a particular form of Love buster called the disrespectful judgement, DJ?

It is possible he is pulling away because you are NOT meeting his needs.

THe point here is to see if we can help you come with a plan to address your marriage. Counseling would be best, but in truth counseling works even better when people understand where they are in their marriage.

It would seem that is where you are heading. I think you can rebuild your marriage. It would seem it sort of healed by default: you did not want a divorce and he did not want a divorce. However as you are finding out building a relationship on what you don't want is not very rewarding.

I am guessing but I would guess he doesn't understand why you had the A's, hence he feels pretty defenseless. If that is the case his ONLY defense is to build walls to protect himself and his feelings from YOU.

Must go. I look forward to seeing your responses.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Sad,

You've come to a great place... so welcome!

Your story has many parallels to mine and my W's... My W was 18 when we married. All of her A's were during our first three years of M. I was stationed overseas and we didn't have any family or close friends nearby. I was constantly away from home and she was alone with our newborn daughter.

I knew about one A, and suspected one other. Didn't have a clue about the other ones... She kept her secrets for 10 years, then finally confessed to the one A that I suspected, and to several more during the same time period.

We never went through any MC after her first A. We both just acted like it never happened. Things were much better between us once we moved back to the states, but like you, I knew that something was missing in our M...

When I learned of her other A's, I was determined to work through all of our issues once and for all, so we found a good Christian MC through our church and started MC together. Also during this time, my W was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and started IC and medications...

I really don't have any ideas on how to encourage your H to start MC, other than to let you both know that I firmly believe that my W and I wouldn't have the M that we have today if it weren't for MC... It is possible to rebuild your M, even after multiple A's... and after many years pass... but for us, the key to our rebuilding was MC.

I agree with all of the concepts here on the MB website and have read all of the books here... but for me, Torn Asunder by Dave Carder really helped me understand my feelings from a betrayed husband's perspective. Get a copy of this book and see if your H would read it... It doesn't pull any punches with the wayward spouse, but it will give you some insight as to many of the feelings that your H is most probably going through.

Again, welcome to MB... I wish you and your H the best as you start to rebuild your M.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

"Get a copy of this book and see if your H would read it... It doesn't pull any punches with the wayward spouse, but it will give you some insight as to many of the feelings that your H is most probably going through."

I can guarantee you that he won't. But it probably would be helpful for me to read. Thank you.

"Again, welcome to MB... I wish you and your H the best as you start to rebuild your M."

Thank you very much. I appreciate all of your thoughts- and hearing your story.

Sorry- please ignore this. I'm just figuring out how to use the forum.

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>

"What reason did you give your H to either try MC or come here to read some of the basic concepts ?"

Well, actually, I was painfully honest and told him I wanted a better M- and that I felt that working through this together would help both of us.

"It sounds like he's become distant to protect himself from this...which will come crashing down around him if he doesn't really learn to work through it and forgive."

That I agree with.


"This won't be easy..and we'll have to keep trying different things."

It isn't easy for me, and I know it will be incredibly difficult for him. Even posting this post just about made me physically ill. You know, I saw another post about who feels worst- the BS or the WS. I couldn't begin to tell you how my BH feels and I would never compare the pain we have both had attributable to MY actions, but I can guarantee you that being the WS is no picnic.
What I have felt: anxiety, disrespect for myself, feelings of being undeserving of love due to past sins...these are just some of the highlights.

"Keep waiting for others to post.
Hang in there, it's good you found this site. You'll find a wealth of support and advice !! "

Thanks again. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[/LIST]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by forgiven22:
[QB] I am a FWW and we are early in our recovery. I have no advice for you but want you to know I will pray for you and your family. It does give me hope that you have made it 5 years. My H was very against MC and still does not attend all sessions but has come for a few. I too do want to be close to him again and I feel where you are coming from with this.My prayers are with you."

Thank you. Mine are with you and your family as well.

"So could you give me a time line, of when you became the major bread winner?"

Yes, it was several months after D-day. We moved immediately after disclosure. It had been planned, but we bumped it up as we felt it would help matters. After reviewing finances, we decided that having him stay home made the most sense from a sanity and economic perspective. He participated fully in the decision. However, I am aware that being *home* as a male is difficult. I have seen teasing and insulting comments by friends and family- that they would never DREAM of saying to a SAHM. I always *stick up* for him, but still....

"Where did the Affairs fall in your marriage (I mean at what years of your marriage and what were your ages?)"

Our ages- I was 24/25 and he was 27/28. We had been married for 2 1/2 years before the first. The 2nd immediately followed the first (god, I feel like such a slut to write this.)

"Is the decision for him to stay home an economic one, or is it something that just sort of happened?"

Economic. Additionally, our middle daughter has a chronic health condition that necessitates one of us having flexibility which I do not have with my job.

"Has he shown a lack of interest in other things besides the marriage since or even before the A's?"

No, not really. He appears to me to have withdrawn somewhat, but he doesn't agree. He has an active social life with his brothers and cousins- i.e. they golf and go out frequently.

What makes you think he is not "back"?

I feel a lack of tenderness/affection from him- I just don't feel *close* the way we used to. I used to think we were each other's best friend. (yes I know..what kind of friend would do that to her best friend...) We definitely have not regained that.

"I would like to know why you had the A's and why you had them and did NOT contemplate leaving your H?"

Pshew. Can I just say- immaturity and stupidity? We had become exclusive when I was only 16, and at the time the A's happened, I think we were both busy having the stupid sort of flings you have in highschool/college. The way I acted out my "flings" obviously was the most detrimental. However, he did frequent strip-clubs etcetc. We have, needless to say, both grown up a lot since then. In fact, looking back at those days I still can't believe it.


"Were you the major breadwinner when you had the A's?"

No. He was. I was in school.


"Permit me to ask you another question. Do you two talk alot?"

Yes. Mostly about things we're planning, the kids etc.

"Did you and he talk about the affairs alot?"

"No. He didn't want to...and to be honest, neither did I."

"Is your sexlife better or worse before, during or after the A's?"

Better now,(recently) probably. I've had 3 children since 1997 and been on anti-d's so you can imagine that the last few years haven't been a picnic in that regard. Before or during? Probably about the same.

"Have you read the book His Needs Her Needs by Harley? Have you read the articles on this site about Love busters, needs, and a particular form of Love buster called the disrespectful judgement, DJ?"

Yes to the articles. No to the book.

It is possible he is pulling away because you are NOT meeting his needs.

I don't think so. Perhaps.

Sad,

Thank you for your answers. I am sure I will ask more questions. I hope you do get the book and read it as I think it will help you.

So lets start this by discussing a few things in sort of random order. As I understand this, you feel that

1. Your H is not back following the affairs

2. He will not agree to counseling.

3. Neither of you want to discuss the affairs and more importantly the fall out from them.

Do I have that sort of right? Ok, allow me to respond to your responses I'll do my best to offer some thoughts. It seems to me the key thing is to get him talking and to address the walls he has put up.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"So could you give me a time line, of when you became the major bread winner?"

Yes, it was several months after D-day. We moved immediately after disclosure. It had been planned, but we bumped it up as we felt it would help matters. After reviewing finances, we decided that having him stay home made the most sense from a sanity and economic perspective. He participated fully in the decision. However, I am aware that being *home* as a male is difficult. I have seen teasing and insulting comments by friends and family- that they would never DREAM of saying to a SAHM. I always *stick up* for him, but still....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but still... I worry about this one being a male myself. Let me see if I can paint a picture for you. You are his best friend and you betray him. You all don't really address it so he is left to wonder WHY? He is left wondering if he is "good enough". Next you make a decision that seems sensible for the both of you, but it removes him from his male role model as defined by society and clearly family and friends and He takes grief for it from them. Also lowering his self-esteem a bit. Further, his W correctly feels she needs to stand by him when this happens but of course it makes him look more like a wimp when this happens.

To add to this he is TOTALLY dependent on you to bring in money.

Are you seeing the possibility that he may have trust and self-esteem problems. You chose two different men over him and in each case for a long period of time. He may have agreed to this arrangement partly out of fear he would lose you if he did not.

But, it seems to me that if even a part of my conjectures are right, he is on the defensive.

The problem with that is that he CANNOT admit he needs help. He cannot admit he doesn't trust. He cannot admit he is hurt. To my way of thinking he is sort of in a box, hence he withdraws as his means of protecting himself.

You are wanting him to put himself on the limb and trust you, but you must realize he is already out on the limb socially. Your suggestions very likely sound like demands to him and he will fight that and anything that would seem to indicate he is weak.

These are my guesses. So if you would allow me, let's assume this scenario has some merit. What do you think needs to be done?

I will give you the 'textbook' answer. You two need to understand the four rules of marriage as point out by Harley, and you both need to use the Policies of radical honesty, and Joint Agreement (POJA). Here is why. The POJA is a negotiating approach to marriage where all decisions are made. This my make him feel he has some power in the relationship. The concept of radical honesty is very important but difficult.

Let's focus it on you. You had two affairs, and you cannot adequately explain why you had them. That leaves him absolutely without recourse in terms of feeling he has some control over whether you have another one. Further, it means you have not really faced yourself. Now from your posts it is clear your affairs bother you, you are ashamed of them, and you feel pain from them. I am betting you have NOT told him this. In short you have NOT been radically honest, because you want to protect him. But, actually you are protecting yourself.

He needs to be part of the solution to your guilt, pain, and thinking. He cannot be any sort of a leader in this marriage if you hide from him where you need help. Given this are you surprised that he does not trust you enough to open up to you. He very likely feels something died when he found out about your betrayal. Make no mistake about it the physical part probably just kicked him in the b****, but the real damage were the lies.

Since you have avoided talking to him about this, he can only assume that you will lie again when it suits you. He needs something to hang on to. Something to do so that he has a sense of some control.

Do you see what I am driving at?? You are the one here. You are the one seeking a deeper marriage. You are the one that had the affairs. So you are the one that needs to bring this up.

Now I don't really know your personality nor your H's. But, again let me speculate that you are sort of a take charge person. If you just jump right in and say "right OK, now we will fix this thing and get YOU right as rain." I suspect he will pull back. My guess is you have to approach him from the point of view that you need his help.

And gradually begin to discuss this. During this you can begin to inquire as to how he feels, how he felt. Perhaps validate him a bit, but also give him the sense that you are not using him but you do need him.

I know this long, but I offer this to start you thinking about this. You need to gather some data about this and then you need to open communications. The Needs questionaire is also a good way to start this but bring him along slowly. If he doesn't want to take it, try answer as he would and then see if you are close.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Where did the Affairs fall in your marriage (I mean at what years of your marriage and what were your ages?)"

Our ages- I was 24/25 and he was 27/28. We had been married for 2 1/2 years before the first. The 2nd immediately followed the first (god, I feel like such a slut to write this.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you really need to understand why you had these two affairs and then reflect on how your H probably thought you felt about him. I doubt his thinking has changed much since he found out, because while it has been 5 years,it has been 5 years with no effort to sort this out, just sort of let it lie there like an elephant under the family room rug.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Is the decision for him to stay home an economic one, or is it something that just sort of happened?"

Economic. Additionally, our middle daughter has a chronic health condition that necessitates one of us having flexibility which I do not have with my job.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So do you foresee it ever changing that he will always be the one at home? Is this something you are happy with?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Has he shown a lack of interest in other things besides the marriage since or even before the A's?"

No, not really. He appears to me to have withdrawn somewhat, but he doesn't agree. He has an active social life with his brothers and cousins- i.e. they golf and go out frequently.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what you are saying is he has no friends, just family. Was he a person that used to have friends before you two married or had children??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What makes you think he is not "back"?

I feel a lack of tenderness/affection from him- I just don't feel *close* the way we used to. I used to think we were each other's best friend. (yes I know..what kind of friend would do that to her best friend...) We definitely have not regained that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you tried to regain that? If so how did you try to do this? Was he part of the solution or just part of your experiment? I mean did you two talk about how to regain your friendship? Did you talk about how to regain the closeness?

I ask this because if you two did not do this then it is likely that he is still dealing with the pain of the affair. Further, you should remember as marriages age and people age some of what was there does go away to be replaced by a deeper, but quieter love. So perhaps it is not all about the A or even he staying home or anything. But, If you are worried about it, then I suspect you have a valid concern.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I would like to know why you had the A's and why you had them and did NOT contemplate leaving your H?"

Pshew. Can I just say- immaturity and stupidity? We had become exclusive when I was only 16, and at the time the A's happened, I think we were both busy having the stupid sort of flings you have in highschool/college. The way I acted out my "flings" obviously was the most detrimental. However, he did frequent strip-clubs etcetc. We have, needless to say, both grown up a lot since then. In fact, looking back at those days I still can't believe it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! Sad, your explanations do not really fly. You know have a YEARLONG affair is not just something young kids do. You know having a second right after the first is NOT something kids just do. You need to really decide to address this. I know it is painful, but there were reasons. Perhaps some of them were your H's behavior, but no matter YOU need to face this, although it is painful.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Were you the major breadwinner when you had the A's?"

No. He was. I was in school.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did he put you through college? Did he go to college?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Permit me to ask you another question. Do you two talk alot?"

Yes. Mostly about things we're planning, the kids etc.

"Did you and he talk about the affairs alot?"

"No. He didn't want to...and to be honest, neither did I."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! no one wants to talk about the elephant under the family room rug. So just how do you expect him to heal from this? You have NOT healed, why would you expect him to? Not talking about it does NOT restore trust.

You are right to explore this because just "staying" married is not the mark of recovery or success. Please think about this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Is your sexlife better or worse before, during or after the A's?"

Better now,(recently) probably. I've had 3 children since 1997 and been on anti-d's so you can imagine that the last few years haven't been a picnic in that regard. Before or during? Probably about the same.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think he is/was satisfied with it? Does he have a high sex drive? I presume your affairs were fully sexual and I presume your H knows about this, right? I asked this for another reason. Sexual satisfaction is usually a high need for an H. If it is and it was not being met before you had the A's, then it is likely he feels you found him less than the OM in your life. Us guys are a bit sensitive about these things you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Have you read the book His Needs Her Needs by Harley? Have you read the articles on this site about Love busters, needs, and a particular form of Love buster called the disrespectful judgement, DJ?"

Yes to the articles. No to the book.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See if you can find this book. It is in most stores or you can order it on this site.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is possible he is pulling away because you are NOT meeting his needs.

I don't think so. Perhaps. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is a short synopsis about the needs issue. Harley observed in his practice that people often did not get their needs met in the marriage. But, an even more surprising observation was that the spouse was often trying to meet the other spouses needs. They failed because they did know their spouses needs, or how the spouse wanted them met. Usually, it was assumed that our needs where their needs and that they would like them met the way we would.

Sort of like knowing a child would like a toy, and then assuming that whether or not he was a boy he would like a doll, rather than an ant farm. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Do you see the problem? It is not about willingness, it is about misdirected effort. Finally, not getting needs met is not the reason affairs occur. They occur because the affairee decides to do it, pure and simple. However, meeting needs is a way of telling someone you love them, which will diminish the chances of them deciding to have an affair.

So the idea of meeting more of your H's needs, is the idea of giving you more ways to tell him you love him, you want him in your life, and you respect him.

On this last note, I think you really need to consider if he feels you respect him. If you do think he knows this, let me ask you how he would know? What would tell him this information?

We are back to communications and radical honesty. I think the POJA will come in when you approach the issue of counseling.

I will say that the Harley's are a great set of counselors and since they do it by phone it is very convenient. Further, they coach you rather than counsel and are big on setting up plans for recovery.

Just some thoughts. I need to get back to work, but I look forward to your answers.

God Bless,

JL

Responses to Just Learning:


1. Your H is not back following the affairs

2. He will not agree to counseling.

3. Neither of you want to discuss the affairs and more importantly the fall out from them.

Do I have that sort of right?

Yes. That is how I feel at least. I don't know for sure if that is how he feels. He has told me that when we fight that I always "assume" that it is because ofthe A's when it may be just because I've ticked him off. We HAVE discussed the A's- just not frequently, and not in great depth.

"It seems to me the key thing is to get him talking and to address the walls he has put up."

Yes- I completely agree.


"Let me see if I can paint a picture for you. You are his best friend and you betray him. You all don't really address it so he is left to wonder WHY? He is left wondering if he is "good enough". Next you make a decision that seems sensible for the both of you, but it removes him from his male role model as defined by society and clearly family and friends and He takes grief for it from them. Also lowering his self-esteem a bit. Further, his W correctly feels she needs to stand by him when this happens but of course it makes him look more like a wimp when this happens. To add to this he is TOTALLY dependent on you to bring in money.

Are you seeing the possibility that he may have trust and self-esteem problems. You chose two different men over him and in each case for a long period of time. He may have agreed to this arrangement partly out of fear he would lose you if he did not. But, it seems to me that if even a part of my conjectures are right, he is on the defensive. The problem with that is that he CANNOT admit he needs help. He cannot admit he doesn't trust. He cannot admit he is hurt. To my way of thinking he is sort of in a box, hence he withdraws as his means of protecting himself.
You are wanting him to put himself on the limb and trust you, but you must realize he is already out on the limb socially. Your suggestions very likely sound like demands to him and he will fight that and anything that would seem to indicate he is weak.These are my guesses. So if you would allow me, let's assume this scenario has some merit. What do you think needs to be done?"

I think what you suggest has a lot of merit. I don't think that he agreed to be home b/c he thought he would lose me, however. He suggested it. I also don't see him as less of a "man" b/c he is home- I well know what a difficult job it is. ( I have been shocked by the female friends that I have that have told me that they would never be ok with the husband being home..or earning less money then them etc etc) Whether HE sees himself as "less" b/c he is home, I don't know.


"Let's focus it on you. You had two affairs, and you cannot adequately explain why you had them. That leaves him absolutely without recourse in terms of feeling he has some control over whether you have another one. Further, it means you have not really faced yourself. Now from your posts it is clear your affairs bother you, you are ashamed of them, and you feel pain from them. I am betting you have NOT told him this. In short you have NOT been radically honest, because you want to protect him. But, actually you are protecting yourself."

Well, that is partly true. I have told him how horrible I felt- how much guilt etc etc. However, we don't frequently discuss it, and he is aware that I feel that I have worked through some of my issues/emotions about myself in my IC.

"He needs to be part of the solution to your guilt, pain, and thinking. He cannot be any sort of a leader in this marriage if you hide from him where you need help. Given this are you surprised that he does not trust you enough to open up to you. He very likely feels something died when he found out about your betrayal. Make no mistake about it the physical part probably just kicked him in the b****, but the real damage were the lies."

No. I'm not surprised.


"Do you see what I am driving at?? You are the one here. You are the one seeking a deeper marriage. You are the one that had the affairs. So you are the one that needs to bring this up.
Now I don't really know your personality nor your H's. But, again let me speculate that you are sort of a take charge person. If you just jump right in and say "right OK, now we will fix this thing and get YOU right as rain." I suspect he will pull back. My guess is you have to approach him from the point of view that you need his help.
And gradually begin to discuss this. During this you can begin to inquire as to how he feels, how he felt. Perhaps validate him a bit, but also give him the sense that you are not using him but you do need him."

Can I ask whether I come off as controlling? Yikes. However, I think you are right on target. I DO need him. And you're right that I probably haven't shown him that enough. He also has a lot of pride, and is extremely stubborn and opinionated (actually we both are) so you are definitely right that I need to be the one that comes up with a strategy and does the work- so that he can understand how important he is to me. The thought of a future without him makes me feel sick. I don't think that is necessarily what would happen if things go on as they are...but emotional distance is just as bad.

"I know this long, but I offer this to start you thinking about this. You need to gather some data about this and then you need to open communications. The Needs questionaire is also a good way to start this but bring him along slowly. If he doesn't want to take it, try answer as he would and then see if you are close."

He won't do it. But I can try to do it from his perspective. The thing is...I don't know if I'll even be close. I was frankly even surprised by my own answers.



"So do you foresee it ever changing that he will always be the one at home? Is this something you are happy with? "

Yes, I am happy with this. If he went back to work, I would have to work as well. I sincerely do not mind having him home while I work. If he chooses to go back to work in the future, however, I would support him in that. He has told me that he doesn't necessarily intend to do that however.

[So what you are saying is he has no friends, just family. Was he a person that used to have friends before you two married or had children??

No, that isn't entirely accurate. He does have a lot of friends. The difference now is that we don't really have "couple" friends as we used to.
He goes out frequently with the boys.


"Have you tried to regain that? If so how did you try to do this? Was he part of the solution or just part of your experiment? I mean did you two talk about how to regain your friendship? Did you talk about how to regain the closeness?"

Nope. I've tried but that is, according to him, "overanalyzing."


"Ah! Sad, your explanations do not really fly. You know have a YEARLONG affair is not just something young kids do. You know having a second right after the first is NOT something kids just do. You need to really decide to address this. I know it is painful, but there were reasons. Perhaps some of them were your H's behavior, but no matter YOU need to face this, although it is painful."

I'm not sure how to exactly explain this, but both A's had little true sex in them. Yes, kissing etc, and yes, it did happen on a very rare basis- but it was never the type of A where we met for an hour somewhere... Perhaps I haven't faced the *true* reasons, I don't know. I do think that my age when we became "Exclusive" has a lot to do with it though.

Did he put you through college? Did he go to college?

No. He supported me while I was in lawschool. He did go to college.


[QUOTE]Ah! no one wants to talk about the elephant under the family room rug. So just how do you expect him to heal from this? You have NOT healed, why would you expect him to? Not talking about it does NOT restore trust.

You are right to explore this because just "staying" married is not the mark of recovery or success. Please think about this."

I will definitely think about this. I don't know how to make him talk however if he doesn't want to. I like your plan of action above, however, which might lead to this.


"Do you think he is/was satisfied with it? Does he have a high sex drive? I presume your affairs were fully sexual and I presume your H knows about this, right? I asked this for another reason. Sexual satisfaction is usually a high need for an H. If it is and it was not being met before you had the A's, then it is likely he feels you found him less than the OM in your life. Us guys are a bit sensitive about these things you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> "

As I explained above the A's were very seldom fully sexual. He is aware of that. However, has my lack of interest since d-day (in part due to my emotional state and in part due to the physical demands of pg and young children) added to the problem? I'm sure yes.



"Finally, not getting needs met is not the reason affairs occur. They occur because the affairee decides to do it, pure and simple. However, meeting needs is a way of telling someone you love them, which will diminish the chances of them deciding to have an affair.So the idea of meeting more of your H's needs, is the idea of giving you more ways to tell him you love him, you want him in your life, and you respect him."

Yes, I completely agree. I wish I could get him to do the quiz. I frankly don't know if I would be accurate in filling it out for him and trying to assume that I know his top needs.


"On this last note, I think you really need to consider if he feels you respect him. If you do think he knows this, let me ask you how he would know? What would tell him this information?
We are back to communications and radical honesty. I think the POJA will come in when you approach the issue of counseling."

An excellent point, and one I will give some thought to.

"I will say that the Harley's are a great set of counselors and since they do it by phone it is very convenient. Further, they coach you rather than counsel and are big on setting up plans for recovery."

If I could get him to agree, I would set up a call with the Harleys in a heartbeat. We shall see how matters progress.

"God Bless"

And bless you- thank you so much for your thoughtful answers and questions. I appreciate all of your time.

Sad,

I know I keep bombarding you with more questions but before you can really do anything as much data as can be gathered needs to be on the table. You said a few things that I thought I would reply to first, but please understand the idea is to see if via this site YOU can begin to get a better picture of your marriage. I nor anyone else can make the decisions for you, or will even know the what your marriage is really like save, what you say. So the idea is to get you thinking.

I will say right now, you can deal with the Harley's without your H involved. In fact, they will very likely help you develop strategies for getting him involved.

I do sense that your H will be very resistent to anything that looks like you are "educating" him. That looks like you are leading him. However, I suspect if it is set up right perhaps he can lead YOU to where you want to go. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I presume since you went to law school you are very skilled verbally. You mentioned that you do argue some with him. You assume it has the undercurrent of the A in this, he states it is NOT always the case.

So let's take his word for it for a moment. I would really like you to read the section on love busters, and particularly the section on disrespectful judgments, DJ's. The DJ is perhaps the most deadly of LB's because the person doing is often not aware that they are. For example, let's consider that you assume that his arguing with you has a basis in the A. But, let's say he is really bugged about something else, even how he is thought of by family and friends. You not listening to him when he says it is not about the A,is a big DJ. Worse you miss the opportunity to find out what is really getting to him, hence you don't validate, and he withdraws.

Do you see the picture?? You said you are both headstrong, and be inference I assume neither of you like to lose an arguement (you being a lawyer, I am not sticking my neck out much am I? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) But, what you need to understand about LB's and DJ's is each time YOU win, you actually lose.

I'm taking a leap here, but I would strongly urge you to stop all LB's and see how he responds. Practice the time honored "Yes Dear". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I don't mean let him run over you, but understand that arguing is NOT a good thing.

Next, let's consider what he thinks "analyzing" is. And why he might fear it. If "analyzing" is like what I am doing with you, then you already know that can be uncomfortable right? If "analyzing" is looking for guilt or responsibility, you know that will be uncomfortable. However, if you were to be on "his" side, if you wanted him on your "side", now we are talking about something else aren't we. Perhaps we are talking "problem solving", and helping one another.

Sad, often in these situation it is how you turn a phrase. I personally like the word "grace". If I ask someone if they handled a situation with "grace" it somehow conveys a different approach, than if I used "diplomacy" don't you think?

As you and I converse, I am thinking the word "grace" is something you should consider when dealing with him.

I must get back to work but please read Harley's four rules for a good marriage. I note that you don't have friends as a couple. Suggesting that you don't spend 15 hours with each other as recommended. Do you two share recreation time together? Do you get him away from the kids and take him somewhere where you smile, laugh, enjoy, and relax? He needs it as much as you, but I think he needs your guidance.

Yet, he also needs his identity and I am guessing while he may very well like the current family situation, he is also bothered by it. It is that respect issue again. He may need to be reminded of the things he has done for you that you really admire. Perhaps it is helping you though law school. Perhaps it is forgiving you your affairs. Perhaps it is dealing with the fact that you are not that interested in sex with him. This is one however, that I think really needs to be considered.

Men show and connect with women via sex, and if even now it is not very good, then the pulling away may have less to do with your A's than what is and has been going on within the marriage.

I apologize for the scatter gun approach here and the speculation, but I think as you post on this site and you look within yourself, it will become clearer as to the course of action.

I don't know if you follow football, but announcer (John Madden) uses this saying. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should never roll out the hoses until you know where the fire is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think we are still trying to establish if there is a fire and then where it is.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

Sad,

Sorry to keep coming back to bother you,but your situation bothers me. I was thinking about it and went back and reread everything that you said. I noted you told your H you wanted to "work" on the marriage. That you think it could and should be better. And he refused to get counseling. Then I came upon this paragraph and I thought it held some interesting things for you to consider. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have always both been strong-willed, opinionated and passionate people. I miss him. I miss being close to him, and I miss having any sense of peace about our relationship. I feel like he is just waiting to explode. Another piece of info that may- or may not- help in answering me. I am the major income producer for our family while my DH stays home with our children.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's look at the first part "We have always both been strong-willed, opinionated and passionate people. I miss him. " You do realize that none of these are attributes for a good marriage, don't you. Being strong-willed is great in many things but in a marriage it tends to end negotiation. Opinionated is really not very good at all with regard to a marriage, because while thoughtful is good, having an opinion is good, I fear you are using this word as I am reading it. "I have an opinion and I will defend it to the death." sort of comes to mind. Finally Passionate, is a great thing in bed, is a great thing with regard to intimacy, but when it is combined with the other two, it is very deadly.

When I read this I sort of remembered why I quit playing tennis. I was/am a very good athlete. I took up tennis in my 20's and became very good at it,but I gave it up for a simple reason. I really wanted a recreational sport.

The problem with tennis is you play "against" someone. If they are inferior you win with ease but it is not much of a challenge. If you are evenly matched it can be fun, BUT here was MY problem. I didn't really care if I won, but I hate to lose. So I was left with the issue of "do I jack myself up and beat this guy, or do I lose to this guy because I don't care if I win?" Neither solution offered what I sought which was some relaxation during a physical activity. So I quit playing.

I suspect your marriage may have this problem. You both hate to lose, you both KNOW what is right, and you both will FIGHT for what is right. The problem with this is that it means that ANYTHING is fair game for a good fight/arguement and opening yourself up to another person, is like committing suicide. Your H will not listen to your concerns because if he does and he admits he is vulnerable or worse wrong, he fears you will pound him. In the parlance of MB, it is NOT safe in the marriage.

You wonder where the tenderness has gone, where the closeness has gone, the friendship. You might consider it is going away with each arguement, each time one of you wins and the other loses, each time you fight to a draw and withdraw to fight again.

I may be wrong here, but you stated that you two do argue. What do you argue about? Is it raising the kids, finances, his time, your time, who is doing chores? What are the subjects?

If I could magically change one thing without knowing anything about you or your H, I would remove from your relationship (strong-willed, opinionated, passionate as a combination). Individually, each as much to speak for it, in combination it can be deadly to this marriage. Do you see my concern??

Next you say </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I miss him. I miss being close to him, and I miss having any sense of peace about our relationship. I feel like he is just waiting to explode. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now instead of telling him the marriage needs work, or we need to see a counselor, why not tell him this. It is straight forward, even us guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> can understand it, and it is well defined. It leads naturally to a conversation and possible some resolution. You may be wrong with regards to his exploding.

However, this is a conversation that should take place in a safe environment isn't it?? It is one that should be free of opinions and heavy on thought,feelings, and grace. It is one that should be free of "strong-will", but some passion might be good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Do you see why I am on this topic?

From what you are telling me your A may be still haunting your marriage, but I see you saying things that suggest that current behaviors may be a bigger factor. Your H mentioned that he is mad about current things, but you are seeing it all through the filter of the A's. You may be wrong.

Let me offer you another strawman to consider. Let's say he doesn't feel you respect him. Further let's say you feel compelled to tell him how to run the house and take care of the kids, although that is HIS job. Let's say you two diverge a fair amount on this. This is by the way one of the areas that couples do fight about, and it does harm their marriage, but note there is nothing about an A here is there?

Now you know why I am asking you so many questions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am probably driving you crazy but I have this feeling that other issues are haunting your marriage. I am not saying that further addressing your guilt and perhaps your H's lack of esteem due to the A should NOT happen. I am saying it is possible the current environment will make this impossible until the environment is addressed.

Hence we need to sort out, issues of your H staying home and having to endure poor comments from friends and relatives, issues of you both needing to be right/strong-willed, issues of communications, respect, appreciation, fear (yours and his), and issues of a changing relationship.

Ok, I'll stop the latest core dump. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I think I have given you plenty to think about.

Oh! by the way, if you want your H to read a book or two, buy one start reading it and just leave it around the house. Odds are high he will look at it, even if he never admits it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

JL- can I just thank you from the bottom of my heart???? You are certainly not bothering me- rather, I think your insights are very helpful. You have given me a lot to think about. If what you are suggesting is correct, however- boy do I have a lot to do!
I obviously need to work on this:

"If I could magically change one thing without knowing anything about you or your H, I would remove from your relationship (strong-willed, opinionated, passionate as a combination). Individually, each as much to speak for it, in combination it can be deadly to this marriage. Do you see my concern??"

And this is a good idea:

"Next you say </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I miss him. I miss being close to him, and I miss having any sense of peace about our relationship. I feel like he is just waiting to explode. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now instead of telling him the marriage needs work, or we need to see a counselor, why not tell him this. It is straight forward, even us guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> can understand it, and it is well defined. It leads naturally to a conversation and possible some resolution. You may be wrong with regards to his exploding. "

And I'm afraid that you might be right about this...if I make any suggestions about the house/kids he doesn't react well. The thing is, I do feel I have a right to SOME input into the way the house runs. I obviously need to reconsider how I'm presenting my thoughts:

"Let me offer you another strawman to consider. Let's say he doesn't feel you respect him. Further let's say you feel compelled to tell him how to run the house and take care of the kids, although that is HIS job. Let's say you two diverge a fair amount on this. This is by the way one of the areas that couples do fight about, and it does harm their marriage, but note there is nothing about an A here is there?"

This is a tall order- but it will be well worth the effort...I just wish I could get H to proactively engage with me in these issues. I don't know how to do that though, so I suppose the first thing to do is to work on myself- i.e. work on making sure I don't do any "love-busters" and to think before I speak.


"Hence we need to sort out, issues of your H staying home and having to endure poor comments from friends and relatives, issues of you both needing to be right/strong-willed, issues of communications, respect, appreciation, fear (yours and his), and issues of a changing relationship."

Thank you JL for your time and wisdom-offered so freely to a total stranger!

Sad,

I am sitting her chuckling a bit about what I am going to say. It is soooooo NOT PC. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Since you and H have pretty much reversed rolls with regard to career and home, I have a piece of advice for you. Look at your male co-workers, the ones that seem to have the best marriages with a stay at home Mom. Look closely and you will find they have NO SAY in how the house runs. Oh! they are brought in for discipline, support, occasional consultation, and surely "family" things. But, it has been my observation that the families that seem to do the best are the ones where each parent has control of a section and everyone acknowledges it.

I know, I know it is soooo old fashioned. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I'm afraid that you might be right about this...if I make any suggestions about the house/kids he doesn't react well. The thing is, I do feel I have a right to SOME input into the way the house runs. I obviously need to reconsider how I'm presenting my thoughts: </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Suggestions" from W's are NOT treated as suggestions by men, who have any sort of survival instincts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> My family is like yours except it is reversed. I am considerably older and so are my children. But, let me tell you who runs our house, it is NOT me. I do get a say, when I am asked. Other than that I stay out of it, it is my W's domain. We interact alot. We share very similar views on child rearing, spending money, many things so perhaps it is easier for me.

I will also acknowledge given your likely family dynamics and the social norm, women are expected to know how to rear children, what to say to them, etc. It is not necessarily so, and if you have turned over to your H this job, don't insert yourself.

Now here is where "strong-willed, opinionated, passionate" can really kill a marriage. He as agreed to swap places with you. I hope and from what you say, he did this with some enthusiasm. But he did NOT agree to be your subordinate and he like my W needs a portion of their lives where THEY run things. It they need help they will ask, is my opinion.

This could be a real sore point. It is possible that some of what you are sensing is him seeking his role, his idenity, and he fears if he gets too close he will be burned or run over.

Sad, if you start to change your approach to things I am betting you will see him change.

I have no proof, and I am only speculating on what you have said, but I sense that your marriage has a lot of pressure points where consciously or unconsciously you two are battling for position.

I know as a mother you want a say in the kids upbringing. You should have one, but really you are more like us guys now. To some extent you are on the outside looking in. It will change as they get older as it does for us guys. As kids reach their teenage years they need BOTH parents more and more. So don't panic you will get your chance to form them. You already are, but it is not as obvious.

I hope as you think about things, and do some experiments by modifying your approach to things and gather more data, you will be more comfortable in your own skin. You realize that is what it takes don't you? If you are going to be a good W, a good mother, a good friend, a good partner, you need to be comfortable with yourself: warts and all. That does not mean you are not vigilant for things that could be improved, what I am saying is that this comfort comes with a calmness and grace that all will see.

I look forward to hearing from you again.

God Bless,

JL

Ouch!

You said: It is not necessarily so, and if you have turned over to your H this job, don't insert yourself.... I know as a mother you want a say in the kids upbringing. You should have one, but really you are more like us guys now. To some extent you are on the outside looking in.

Well, I asked for advice and I need to take it. I think you are most likely absolutely on target, but it is difficult to realize that by agreeing to be the financially supporting spouse that I need to take a backseat in matters of running our home and kids.

You also asked this: You realize that is what it takes don't you? If you are going to be a good W, a good mother, a good friend, a good partner, you need to be comfortable with yourself: warts and all. That does not mean you are not vigilant for things that could be improved, what I am saying is that this comfort comes with a calmness and grace that all will see.

And yes. I do realize that. I am MUCH happier with the person I am now then the person I was 8-10 years ago- or even last year for that matter. It's a continual work in progress, however and I hope to reach a state where I react automatically with the grace that you have talked about.


SL, thank you so much for engaging in this discussion with me. Your insights have been very valuable- and I hope you will keep them coming in case you think of anything more to add.

I asked a close friend this morning if she would tell me what she thought the single biggest impediment in my relationship with my husband was - i.e what characteristic I had personally that I should work on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She is a very close friend- and knows I don't take offense. Obviously, I have to take what she offers with a grain of salt as well, but I am anxious to do whatever it takes to get my marriage back on track. Her comment was that I tend to go from 0 to 60 in about .1 seconds - i.e in reacting to things my husband says.

And she's right. I have a hair-trigger temper, particularly with my husband. And you know why? I am trying to be excruciatingly honest with myself here, so I will admit this. I get upset- and I take things out of context or take things in a manner he may not mean them- BECAUSE of my feelings of guilt and BECAUSE I think that he *must* be trying to pick on me b/c he secretly deep down must loathe me.

Wow. This is an eye-opener for me. I have resolved to take 3 deep breaths before responding in the future to what he says (without hyperventilating hopefully.)

Sorry...now I'm rambling. Thanks again.

Sad,

Soooo, if your friend is right, then can you see why things are a little distant? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Let me suggest something to you, I beleive it is called "active listening". When your H says something, stop, think about it, and then ask tell him "let me understand correctly, did you mean...?" It is a way to make sure you understand what he is saying.

One other little piece of advice, for the most part us guys are pretty straight forward. If he had a huge problem with something, he would let you know.

Sad, you need to face this squarely. The man would NOT be with you, if he did NOT want to be. Further, he may love you far more than you realize, NOW LIKE YOU??? That is a different story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Seriously, you are learning some very good things about yourself and it seems to me your insights are right on. It all goes back to love busters again. I am betting the problems in your marriage are more about what you are doing today, than they are about what happened 8 years ago.

I know you feel guilty,and I really do think you need to sit your H down and talk with him about this. Tell him what you fear, how the guilt still bothers you, how you worry so much about him not loving you, and that you worry about him being so hurt by this. Tell him these things. Tell him you just want to talk, he does NOT have to solve a problem, but you need a sounding board on this.

But, Sad, it seems to me that while you came here because you fear the damage your A's have done, the real damage is being done by LB's.

Now let me ask you something else. Does your H keep a good home? Are the kids well taken care of, fed, clothed? I am not asking if he does it like you would, I am asking are things good in your home? If they are, then relax, enjoy his competence, let him know you enjoy his competence, and smile SAD, you and your H are doing well. You really are.

So calm down, act with grace and kindness, and let him do his thing as he must let you do yours. You are part of the "guys" now, and there are some prices for that and control of the homefront is one of them.

Finally, a thought. Anger is a secondary emotion, it is driven by the primary ones: pain, fear, greed, etc. What is driving your anger? Identify it and start to address that. Talk with your IC about it.

Finally, if you want to help your kids the most, help your H. Love him, treat him with respect, be his friend and support. You want more advice, listen to what women say they want from men. It is the same thing. Your work validates you, he does not get the validation you do, he needs it just as my W needs it from me. AND...frankly I need it from her. I think you will find if you work on validating him, you will get from him what you need...validation that despite it all he loves you and wants you in his life.

You are learning fast Sad, but also be patient with all of this, it takes time to change behaviors, perspectives, and responses.

God Bless,

JL