CV, I just wanted reach out to you and further debate some things. I think I got pretty beat up on my "on contact" thread. I understand the posters frustration with my doormat style. But not everyone responds to the "line in the sand" ultimatem and the stakes are very high. We both have children and I would ask you to take a look at Nikko's post in GQ. The idea of an 8yr old wailing in his mothers arms as she threw her WH out is just unbearable. So there's a lot more at stake than my pride.

WOE

The only thing i would venture to say is that w/all the counseling that you've done w/SH if he felt you should do anything differently i think he would have told you. in the end it's you who has to decide what you are willing to do and not do and be able to look back w/out regret. you have the intel on your W and you know her better than anyone here.

some probably would have said i have been a doormat but i can safely and honestly look back at the past few months and not regret anything i did or didn't do after i found MB and counseled W/SH, and most importantly counseled w/God.

continued prayers to you WOE, RR

RR, thanks for thinking of me. I know you're going through a very tough time and it's sure impressive for you to continue to try to help others. I agree with you about SH. I lose my patience from time to time but I have to keep in mind I am winning the war. I suppose I'm a lot luckier than most. The "on-contact" post which you read was really only meant to be a help to others considering remaining "just friends". I did not expect to get all the negative feedback. I don't disagree with what anyone said but it's not as simple as that. None of us are in a position to challenge what someone else is doing but only to advise and suggest. Only we know what our relationships are made of. Hope this finds you well.

WOE

WOE, I only have a few minutes, but I'll write more later if you want. Obviously my patience or tolerance is less than yours. If H was involved in ANYTHING recreational with OW, talking on the phone, having drinks together I'd say "Adios!" I really think I would. That doesn't mean my way is right. I keep on thinking of SAA and that couple I couldn't stand. Well, actually the W who took FOREVER to give up her A. Maybe that is why I get so aggravated with your W. In that book the couple survived and the H plan Aed his A%% off. So what the heck do I know?
If you are tolerating what's going on, and your kids are OK, do what you need to do.

I think people here might just wonder, myself included, if your W is major cake eating. Being with you but getting her OM fix routinely. If that is the case will she ever stop this behavior? When you were trying to stop gambling, could you have if you weekly went into your favorite casino? Think about it and write back. I'm going out and will check in later. CV

WOE:

Indeed.

I think we all get a biased... ...heck, we ALL get a BIASED view of what other people here are doing/should be doing, based on the preponderance of other hurting BSs here trading advice and ideas. I bet I'm not the first that was surprised at what SH said 2 me during the only session I had with him.

mind you, this was 7 months after D-day, sometime around my 1000th post here. He said "so, you only just found out this year?" and then advised me 2 keep plan Aing (in fact, talking with my W about the A and getting 2 NC were 2 be COMPLETELY off the table for the forseeable fu2re). A lot of that had 2 do with the particulars of my sitch - RM in another state, and even when PA was "going on" it was only 2 occasions in a year and a half, plus my W never left.

So much of how best 2 handle infidelity is a function of the particular si2ation. I wasn't in "danger" of the A getting any "worse" at the time, hence SH's recommendation.

Fast forward 2 now. Still don't have an NC agreement. But no A, either. And yes, true recovery is not REALLY possible until we get 2 NC. But, dropping the subject for now is giving my W more time 2 think about what she wants 2 do. It's no fun knowing "leaving" is one of her options, but when you think about it, it always was/is/will be for every mother's son/daughter of us.

If contact renues though, blatantly ignoring the effects it has on me and the kids, I'll be ready. Total oblivion. Neutron bombs and beer for everyone! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2long, thanks for your support. My case is similar in that the A isn't necessarily a threat to renew. In fact if I ever called it an A to OM he would laugh in my face and tell me how W threw herself at him once. I certainly don't need to hear that. But the blatant continued contact as if I should get over it is what really hurts and definitely depletes the LB. My 19th anniversary is in September. I'm going to simply let the day pass if she doesn't mention it. I have tried and tried to woooo her with expensive gifts and trips in the past but while A was going on it's just a waste of time. I'm going to get the book you suggested as well as the book CV suggested. Be a shame not to get our PHD's in this. I don't disagree with SH's patience. While it is difficult I think it recognizes the delicate state of mind of the WS. We all see too many marriages end immediately upon discovery. That's not the right solution without even trying to rebuild.

CV55, OK you may or may not be willing to do what you said. You simply don't know. Look at RoughRoad who has no children involved. I am an above average looking guy and business owner with a lot on the ball. So it's not that I'm this pathetic person that is afraid I'll never find another. It's simply love. Yes the kids would enter into it but quite honestly I believe I would be RoughRoad if I didn't have any. If I didn't love her so much than maybe what everyone says would be very easy to do. I am also pissed at my WW. And I didn't mean to ingore many of your questions on previous threads. Gambling was ended because of exposure. I had to borrow money from my employer which was humiliating, I had to attend GA meetings and I had to go to bed each night knowing that I hurt the person I loved the most and deprived my children. Is W still punishing me for that? I don't know but as I told her I have long ago forgiven myself and certainly made amends. Life is about growth and my hope we both learn from this and are able to caution our children about this cancer. I do enjoy talking to you and seems lately the roles have reversed. You're now giving me the 2x4's and that is appreciated. Just like RR and 2long I am very, very proud of the kind of lighthouse I have been through this. Yes, there is honor in that. BTW I'm not shouting at you. I hope your H is doing more right things than wrong. I hope the feelings come back for him. Being defeated is preferable to giving up. Keep swinging.

WOE

WOE, I'm not sure what else to say here. Did I 2x4 you? Sorry if I come off too strong. The reality is that maybe I don't love my H as much as you love your W. I'm being totally honest here. After d-day I was determined to put up the fight. At least get him away from the "B" so we could both see more clearly. This phase, I guess recovery, is very strange. I think I'm going to write about what's going on with me over in recovery later.

Maybe my tendency, at least internally if not by my actions, is to want to just move on some days. You, no matter what the circumstances, are willing to keep on trucking. There is one thing that comes to my mind. CN said something to me last week that really touched me, and maybe changed me a bit. It applies to you also. He told me 2 things on 2 posts. He said that I'm not someone to be settled for, I maybe should give H the opportunity to fight for me, and I am not the consillation(sp?) prize. OK, how does this apply to you? I don't want to go against anything Steve is telling you. We will be talking to him on Th. Lyrics by Don Henley come to my mind. I'm going to mutilate them a bit, but here goes. "I called out to heaven and asked for someone to love. Heaven called back and said you'll get the love that you'll allow."

WOE, I just can't help but think that as long as you allow your W to keep disrespecting you, this is the love you will be getting. When YOU figure out what YOU deserve, maybe that is when your W will begin to change. Or not! As long as you keep doing everything, being the one who is totally responsible for your M, she doesn't have to kick in. You're doing everything for her. I guess what I am saying maybe you need to let her fight for you at some point.

If I write on Recovery you can delete my post here. God only knows that I don't have it together in my M. The bottom line as always, only you will know when it's time to leave the "cheese station" and look for new cheese. When you read that little book you'll understand what I'm saying.

WOE, you are one of my special MB buddies. You can reach out to me any time! CV

Hey all. Just thought I'd chime in with my 2 cents, for whatever they are worth.

I guess the reason I am posting is because of the words WOE and CV are using - as far as thinking that their current actions or feelings are based on "how much love" they currently have for their spouses. WOE thinks he is Plan A'ing while being disrespected because he loves his WW more than others who refuse to travel down that path.

And CV thinks she might not want to go down the path of recovery with her H because she doesn't love him enough to move forward with him in her life.

And that makes me wonder, makes me think, makes me question, . . . is love measurable like that? Is it even about love??? On the most basic level it is, it must be. BUT, is that what governs peoples decisions and choices?

I guess I don't really have a point, just that the choices of words stirs up a lot in me. Do you all have thoughts on this, or am I just by myself in this thinking???

Maybe it is all about the cheese. Hmmmm . . . interesting.

SS

CV, thanks for your kind words. You are right I do deserve better no doubt about that. I have lots of days lately where I wonder whether it is worth it. But somehow something good happens and I keep going. I'm not better than anyone else here just trying to do whats right. You were never shouting at me and just felt the other thread was oversimplified. I can't simply say either "quit pool or I'm gone". Somehow the two things are out of proportion. My MIL told me at Christmas that a lot of people told her she should leave her husband but she stayed to the bitter end. And it was a bitter end and I would be the first one to say in hindsight that yes she should have left long ago. She was totally disrespected. But you know what? To this day she is my hero and W knows that. My W can fog up anybody but I call it like it is. Her mother is a saint and W wouldnn't care if the woman was alive or dead. Very sad. Last week we got a new fridge, nothing wrong with the old one just to update. W's good like that, making money dissappear. Anyway, W suggested we give the old fridge (4 yrs old) to a married member of the pool team. I said no way I'll offer to my brother. He declined, next call was to her mother and she told us she was just about to purchase one. If W spoke to her more she would have known. Long and short; fridge doesn't fit into mothers house. Next day WOE buys new fridge for MIL and BIL gets the (4yr old one). Pool team will have to continue to drink warm beer I suppose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Last week I took both daughters to Gavin DeGraw concernt while W goes to pool. Nothing gets in the way of pool not even WOE. I have to sit back and scratch my head as to all this woman, who seemingly has everything, is willing to give up for this EA. CV, yes this is WOE patting himself on the back but there is simply satisfaction is doing the right thing every single day. I didn't always understand that. I'll quote Alantis Morrisette song "sometimes staying with you, meant desserting me; AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME" from the Under Rug Swept album. I will visit your thread in Recovery and continue to try to support you as you have supported me. You've been nothing other than a friend to me so don't ever hesitate to bring out the 2x4's. I read it only as concern as I do every poster that replies to a thread. I really wish you can find husband again. Maybe everything doesn't end happily but I implore you to keep trying if only for the kids. Maybe you can show him Nikko's post to get his attention. Divorce sucks but so does being disrespected. No easy solution. Finally, yes my W is huge cake eater and something will have to give. September is 19th Anniversary. I plan on not ackowleging if W doesn't. Perhaps a card and that's it. We are drifting apart and I know W feels it. Maybe that is the point I needed to get to. The cell phone call by my son really got my attention. How precious he is and to have him speak to OM is gutwrenching. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

SS, thanks for checking in. NO, it's not about love really. It's about character and commitment. My FIL was a piece of crap but it has had no influence on my opinion of MIL except that to say she is a hero. She put her children ahead of everything else in her life. Still not appreciated to this day. But I would sure as hell rather be her if we are to have a judgement day than FIL. I am know at a point where I consciously know I have to keep my feelings of love alive for W. No matter how bad she hurts me I have to somehow look for the good in her. It may be survival instict but it isn't a feeling of love. Only of commitment. Don't get me wrong, I like and respect my W and I do love her. But love probably wouldn't be enough right now. You need to look deep inside yourself. I get lots of atta boys from family and friends. Everybody thinks I'm Mr.Wonderful except W. Sadly that's the only one that really matters. But it is satisfying to get the support and respect of family and friends; even W's family. But to take the high road. Forget about me being the doormat. I got tired of playing the fool in OM's company so I stopped it. But I'm not a fool or a doormat. Why for doing what is right? Feeling a little self righteous today I suppose but I can't control what W does. We either make it through or we don't. But I think at some point love isn't enough. And in CV's case there isn't near enough love yet to see her through. So maybe she needs to hold onto something else; like those boys. Glad to continue this as you've asked a great question.

WOE

I guess maybe it also has something to do with how much we as individuals allow others' actions to "harm" us. Because, in all actuality, unless a STD was transmitted, no physical harm has been done. Perhaps you cannot eat or sleep, because of the way your emotions react, it affects your body (in the beginning). But, truly, the pain felt, is what we allow ourselves to feel. Does that make sense?

When someone steps on your toe, actual nerves are injured, and they send a message to the brain that makes you say a curse word. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Or not. Anyway, when someone betrays you, no physical harm is done. It is the way their actions are perceived that hurts. Right?

For instance. I am beginning to realize that my H's A really had nothing to do with me, AT ALL. In fact, he barely thought of me during that time. That hurts my feelings, BUT, he didn't do anything in his A to hurt me. He was dealing with his own feelings, in a crappy way, but that is what he was doing. Being with the HW made him FEEL good. So, he continued doing it. Not to hurt me, but to feel good for himself.

Looking at it that way, I have mucho compassion for him. Because he hurt himself in doing that. He gave up all his core beliefs, his ethics and morals, to make himself feel good. Like shooting up with drugs. It really wasn't about me at all.

That is how I feel today. I know I am on a path, moving (hopefully forward, but I never know!), and I could feel differently tomorrow or next week. Maybe I am just trying this on to see how it fits, as my brain tries to find a way to classify this monumental event in my life. Dunno.

But very interesting!!! Thanks for having this discussion with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SS

WOE and Spidey, I think I better clarify here. H is not disrespecting me. In fact he has never since d-day said any of the mean things I have heard other WSs say to their Ss. Well, maybe one time. He was really angry at me when I did my surprise in person attack on the witch.

Do we have the love to see us through? I thought we did. At the moment something is just going on with me. Maybe it is self-preservation mode. He is very nice and very kind most days. I really don't think he has had any contact with OW. He told his sister that he wants the M to recover. He called Steve to make the appt. he had last week, and called for an appt this week for us both. So what's my problem? H is still holding back, and I am not overextending with Plan A as a result.

Yesterday we were in Barnes and Noble and I saw the book "His Needs, Her Needs". So I read the chapter on recovering from an A. I did this once before and I had the exact same reaction. Harley says when a man has an A it isn't unusual, no matter how great the M is after an A, for him to rekindle the A maybe years later. He said the man just can't get the OW out of his head. I told this to Steve and he didn't seem to agree. But still, when I read that I thought "I don't need this "F"ing SH&& in my life." Sorry, those were my thoughts. I'm going to work my butt off to recover this M only to have H dump me one day? As I was trying to fall asleep last night I just thought I want to D H and move on. I'm not going to do that, but I am in flight mode right now. H doesn't have a clue this is where I am. Steve gave us an assignment which we are doing tomorrow, and then we talk to him TH. I am going to hold off on revealing where I'm at until after I talk to Steve.

I know my H is trying. My biggest frustration is that he was in a passionate in-love A. All As are bad, but that kind really screws a M up. I truly believe that our M has been poisoned, and I'm just not sure it can be extracted. If H can't let this fantasy go, which I have written many times on here, then I don't want to be with him. He claims he isn't fantasizing about her. All I know is my ENs are not being met, and THIS isn't the M I want. I hope H can truly come back to me before it's too late.

So that is where I'm at, and we're at. I'm just biding my time. CV

WOW, both you girls have hit on my position. For SS it's the if a child thinks there's a ghost in the closet simply telling him it's not real doesn't solve the problem. That's kinda what my W tells me. Sort of, what's the big deal. She really doesn't understand. Even my IC looks at me funny after a while. In other words am I dragging this on to be a martyr? Not at all. I am that child. It really hurts. I mean on the golf course when my son told me OM answered W's cell phone it hurt me physically. I don't even mention this to W because she just couldn't imagine what the problem with that would be. It was understood that she is out at pool with OM so what is the big surprise that he should pick up her phone if she was in the ladies room or something. She just CAN'T understand. She knows I'm hurting but she still thinks it's all about ONS. I don't read her mind but that's what I get. So the pain I recieve is way out of proportion with the pain she inflicts.

Now CV. You say you're husband has no idea that you are that close to leaving. You are insulating him out of love. It would not help the situation for him to know how you are on the fence. That is exactly what I do for my wife. She is in trouble. Is she consciously hurting me? No. She has no idea of the terrible hurt she is inflicting. Is she being selfish? Extremely. But if you look from her standpoint. She has been loyal, faithful, remorseful W for last 2 1/2 yrs. So why not kiss and make up. Last week she said we need a new counter top so could we have Chris come over to install as he's very good. This was my absolute best friend before he had a EA/ONS with my W 3 1/2 yrs ago. He immediately ended the friendship at the time which I respect. But W can't understand why my response was "absolutely not". This man can't be our friend anymore either. It would be too disrespectful to me as well as his W. My W can't even come close to comprehending this. I suppose she just thinks I'm being spiteful and unforgiving. But you gals know different. Like SS says, how much do we allow other actions to hurt us. Finally W always says after we divorce we'll still be great friends. I say no way. But for now I wouldn't do anything to hurt this woman. I only wish her the very best with or without me. So that is part love, part friendship and part respect I suppose. I guess this is how I rationalize my position. But again as SS said the pain her husband inflicted was unintentional, it really does make a huge difference. How unconsciounable for me to go out and have an A knowing what I know. My W and your H's didn't have that prior knowledge. The fact that you say H is doing his best and treating you well will seemingly pay off. Stop working so hard and sit back and watch. That's the advice you're giving me and that's what I'm going to do. Concentrate on being a great dad and an available husband. I'm going to stop pursuing and see what happens.

WOE,

Hope you don't mind me chiming in here. I've been following your story & I read what others had to say to you in your On Contact thread & I just want to say that I support you in your decision to love your W no matter what. I made the same decision about my H a long time ago.

When your W says that even if you'll D being friends, that's usually how most people view it, cause my H thought the same thing. He always thought that no matter what happened between us, we could always remain friends. He never thought we'd stop speaking to each other. When I told him (when we were separated) that I had to take some time alone & stop being good friends for the moment, until I was able to heal, it made him stop & realize what his life would be like w/o me there at all. That's when he realized how important I was to him. He decided to give our M another chance & he ended up falling back in love w/me & amazingly, it's been a very good 6 months since his return.

I heard this line in the movie, The Mexican with Julia Roberts & Brad Pitt. The kidnapper says to Julia something along the lines of, "When you love someone, when is enough, enough?" And Julia answers, "I don't know." And the kidnapper says, "Never." What a true statement. I never realized how deep the meaning goes until all this happened so kudos to you for having the strength to endure. And when you feel like you're weakening, just call on our great God above and He'll keep giving you strength to face the obstacles.

God's blessings to you,
Yvette

CV, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Spidey, I think I better clarify here. H is not disrespecting me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I didn't mean you, actually. I meant WOE. But, thanks for clarifying anyway!

WOE, you are actually embodying all of the principles that are so wonderful for us all to think we have, but so difficult to actually practice in real life. Let me explain.

I believe that as humans, our natural inclination is to give, only when we are either 1)receiving back equal or more, or 2)we EXPECT to receive equal or more. To give, with no REQUIREMENT of expectation, I think comes UNnaturally to us. However, it can be developed through practice, discipline, and determination.

In fact, I am going to share something that many on MB might disagree with, but oh well. Yesterday in MC, our MC actually went so far as to say that affairs, addictions, all destructive things in a M, are actually 50% responsibility of BOTH BS and WS. I know here at MB we say BS is 50% responsible for the vulnerable state of the M BEFORE the A, but the A is 100% WS responsibility.

AND, that might be what the MC meant, but with no direct line between the M and the A and the BS and the WS. Meaning, I know through the years, I have INADVERTANTLY hurt my H. Said inappropriate things at inappropriate times, perhaps made him feel unappreciated and/or inadequate. Sometimes, I might have even consciously lashed out at him to hurt him. Mostly, though, we didn't understand how to effectively communicate, and so many hurts were just tucked away, "forgotten."

Well, when H was in the A, I sure did hear about a lot of these old "hurts" that I didn't even know hurt him when they happened! A lot of anger and resentment had been built up over the years, and the A gave it all a perfect opportunity to come out. Because he wasn't worried about hurting my feelings anymore, or something.

And now that we do communicate better, when I say, "You stay at work too long. You choose work over me. I feel expendable to you." Know what he hears? Well, first let me tell you what I MEAN when I say those things. I MEAN, "I am lonely and I miss you and I want to spend time with you." HE hears that I don't appreciate how hard he works for this family to support us, that he isn't good enough, that he makes poor decisions.

Hm. We communicated, or rather DIDN'T communicate, like that for 15 years. 15 years!!! That's a LOT of misunderstandings, hurt feelings, poor habits!

Anyway, looking at the M like that, 50% responsibility for a catastrophe happening. I have to say that OWNING my HALF of everything, has brought me peace. Today, it brought me peace. I have no idea how I will feel tomorrow.

And CV, yes, your H could rekindle the A in 10 years. He could tomorrow. Mine could, too. OR, you could fall into the arms of the landscaper one day . . . you never know. BUT, you and your H now know what an A is, what proper boundaries need to be in place, and both of you can CHOOSE into these behaviors in the future.

IMO, you have the tools to have a safer future now, than you did before this happened to you. Before, you were in (blissful) ignorance. Now, you are fully awake. And you must also trust yourself. CV, the more I hear from you lately, the more I think you are having a hard time owning your part of the M pre-A. Forget about you thinking to own part of the A. That is the way I am handling it with my H. I don't want a bunch of people freaking out about that.

But just the MB part of owning the M pre-A. I have heard you talk a lot about how you two had problems, went to MC, and you thought you were in a good place. Personally, I think that ONE place is where your hang-up in recovery is happening. I don't think it is your ONLY recovery hang-up (I have plenty, too, believe me). But I think it is the one that is holding you back from moving forward AT ALL.

This is JUST my opinion. I hope I am not ticking you off. I know some A's happen in healthy, strong M's. If you look at your H's A like that, you will not recover, IMO. Because then, you will only see what HE DID TO YOU!!!

AND, the other thing I must say that might tick you off, is that consciously or subconsciously, your H knows you have one foot out of the M. That's why he does. As a counselor, you must know that you can only recognize something in someone else, if you know it inside yourself first. Your H has emotional detachment from you? He is holding back? SO ARE YOU.

Why do you expect him to do something you are not willing to do? You have made it perfectly clear to him what you think of him, of his actions. WHY would he open up to you while you are in judgement of him? You are not a safe place for him right now. And that is OK. You don't HAVE to be. BUT, I think it is unrealistic for you to base your recovery process on him not being willing to put himself out there, when it is not safe.

I'm not saying stay or go, for anybody. But shouldn't we all challenge each other to be making the best choices possible? With all information, ideas, thoughts, on the table? 9 out of 10 times at MC, H and I leave upset. This recovery is hard. It is stinky when you deal with issues that are so painful.

I still remember one of the first people who posted to me on JFO in the beginning of February. It was Redhat, and in his sig line, it said something to the effect of: Do everything you can, so in the end you have no regrets. And that is what I am determined to do.

Some days, I'm like "Screw this. There's gotta be an easier way." Then I realize - REALLY? Says who? I honestly cannot think of another single event that could have propelled me forward so far, in such a short period of time, or got my H to go to IC and/or MC. H used to be convinced IC and MC were scams, to get money, mess with your head. I see now how wonderful a M can be, when both people are 100% in and wanting it to succeed. So, some days, I'm even like "Wow. This is so cool. I am happy where I am at right now."

Hm. Well, CV, are you PO'd at me???

SS

Standing Together, thank you for the kind words. The line in the moving is awesome. I am also very fond of the poem "love island" with it's finishing line; "only time is capable of understanding how great love is". You are right about the friendship thing too. If my W was faced, really faced with the prospect of losing me that is exactly what her reaction would be - that I can't lose my best friend. She says this to me very, very often. Believe I wouldn't be such a doormat if W weren't giving something. She is in a tough place and I know that. It isn't as simple as just giving up OM anymore, it's a whole group and a lifestyle that she has come to love. But sadly it all most go.

SS, Redhat's sig line was one of the first I grabbed onto as well. It goes something like "give your best so that in 10 years you can look back without regret". Words to live by; at least these days. If I seem like a freak able to maintain this high level of giving it is really because W does love me and give back to me. Just like you said about what is said and what is heard. My marriage is very similar to how you described yours. W wants to be with me and I want to see how I can get to golf, casino, bar etc. I look at her as controlling but really it's love. She'll find her way back and I imagine I'll be here with arms wide open. But I can give like this because of how much she has stood by me. I really do liken that to the lovebank theory. She has established quite a reserve (though she's spending at an alarming rate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). We definitely need some MC to learn better communication skills. I feel sure I will get the chance to have the marriage that you described.

CV. I just want to say that I continue to ignore what you ask and I bet it gets frustrating talking to me for that. But one thing I meant to mention about your H's so called "in love A" is that aren't they all like that. My brother's 5 year A ended when his W walked in on his surprise 40th given by OW. He went home and never looked back. He might have had OW convince it was something special but when it comes to really consider leaving the marriage it is not something taken lightly. I think you may be giving his A more credibility then it deserves. I know I am certainly guilty of that. The pain is brutal but the payback could be awesome as well. SS makes a nice case about what is possible and that's something we all should give every opportunity to achieve. Blessings to all.

Spidey, I was a bit POed at you while reading your post, but I love you anyway. The thing is I feel you made certain assumptions that weren't altogether correct, so I will try and clarify.

Before I do that I want to comment on what you said that when someone betrays us no physical harm is done. "It is the way their actions are perceived that hurts." Also "The pain felt is what we allow ourselves to feel." In a perfect world, where we are all evolved into total spiritual creatures I think this might hold true. However, these are the lessons I have learned in my life. In my younger years if I felt some of the darker feelings of life I would think there was something wrong with me. Or I might share those feelings with H for example, and he would be critical of me. So the message was it is wrong to feel those unpleasant feelings. I am totally over that now. A therapist told me years ago when exploring some hurtful experiences that if someone kicks you, whether they meant to or not, it still hurts. H's A was a kick in the gut. It hurts. I still feel the pain from it. I am not holding on to the pain. I actually want to get over the pain. Clean out the wound and heal it. But H is not allowing that process to happen. I found out specifically tonight how he has been sabatoging our recovery and I am really angry. It doesn't have to do with being in contact with OW.

Another lesson is that feelings are neither right or wrong, they just are. Maybe I am too honest on MB about what I am feeling. As a result people may interpret that I am doing a lousy Plan A. Or maybe that I haven't been working that hard to save my M. That isn't the case. I am just acknowledging my full range of emotions, I think because it is healing for me to do that.

Concerning the pain, something that I think gets lost on here is that we BSs go through a real mental disorder as a result of the A. When you suffer from PTSD it might not be as simple as not allowing the pain to effect us. That is why we are all triggered into the pain. One way to heal from PTSD is to talk about the trauma and allow the pain to come until it becomes less and less. H is blocking me from what I need to heal because he doesn't want to relive the A. OK, fine. Then we have a problem because I'm not going to just get over this.

You said that you think a major hangup in our Recovery is my dwelling on the fact that I thought we had a good M pre-A. Also that I don't want to take responsibility for my part in any problems pre-A. This is actually very far from the truth. Think of the work you and your H are doing in MC right now. H and I did that intense work for 1 1/2 yrs. We came out of it with what I and he considered to be a strong M. We were very happy together. I feel very sad that we made it through so much in our M, and worked so hard to have an even better M, and H threw it away. In "Not Just Friends" the author said it is a myth to say that As only happen in troubled Ms. Unfortunately H was not healthy enough to withstand the deaths, sickness, and stress in 2002 AND 2003. I am stating a fact here, not blaming. Three therapists are sure his father's death caused a mid-life crisis in him, along with other things, and just our luck to have the pursuing OW right there. I was totally unable to meet all his needs. She didn't have anything standing in her way. One of Steve's assignments to H was for him to tell me that the A was 100% his choice, period. H told me that the other day. I won't take any responsibility for the A. Sometimes life sucks. Sometimes we let each other down. But it is a choice whether to have an A or not. H didn't give me the choice to even talk to him about how he felt. I reached out to him so many times last year, and he just blew me off. I have told H many times since d-day that I will explore our pre-A problems with him. But first I need to deal with the trauma of the A and hopefully get on more solid ground first.

As far as the theory that my having one foot out the door is why H does, well here's my opinion on that. I have acted and told H that I am committed to saving this M. I have given this man mucho attention and affection. I started having sex with him almost immediately, which even surprises me. Compared to some of the stories on here I haven't given H many severe bashings. I think about 4 times I really lost it with my anger. Part of the reason I vent on here is to keep me from LBing him, like I want to do tonight. When I asked him about all the sexual stuff he even told me I didn't LB him. This is what's been happening over the past several months. We went from having a lot of SF, to it decreasing. That was H pulling back. Then in the past month I got tired of just sex. I didn't feel like that before, but before I did experience passion with him. H has not told me he loves me in months. Not that he was telling me a lot before. He barely kisses me. When I wanted to have a discussion last week about whether we should continue sex because I just wasn't satisfied, he said, "If you feel that would be best, then it's OK." My shrink said that is his problem. He won't have a conversation. I haven't known in recent months what he is thinking or feeling. I might as well be back where I was during his A.

I am very intuitive and have picked up on his withdrawal, in spite of his acting nice. Tonight some crap came out in the open. He realized he has been withdrawing from me. That sex conversation about the A was one thing that set him back, and caused anger towards me in another area. This is where my anger is in high gear. This isn't about me, it is about H. This I know from being Med to the man for 19 yrs, and being with him for 26 yrs. When he doesn't want to face the intense feelings he withdraws, and then he projects his feelings onto me. I told him tonight that withdrawing from me was a cruel act. He withdrew from me, cut me out, for 9 months, and he is retraumatizing me. I will not be in a M where my H withdraws from me instead of communicating. We learned that in therapy, and now he has reverted back because of this A. I told him last night I laid in bed and thought about Ding him. I asked him if he wanted that. He said "No", and I told him he better figure out why he withdraws because I can't stay if he continues this pattern.

Well I guess that is enough clarifying how I feel. Spidey, I hope you don't mind that I responded to what you wrote. I am not saying that I am perfect. Far from it. Right now, if it weren't for my boys, I'd probably just want to separate. I'm selfishly not really thinking much about what that would do to them. I want to be Med to an aware man. One who is in touch with his feelings, but not led by them unconsciously. Anyway, H has therapy tomorrow, and I'll be talking to Steve TH. Hopefully that will help us stay on the MB course. Thanks Spidey! WOE, I'll comment on some of your post tomorrow. CV