New drama! Tomorrow, while OM has his and car4love's daughter, car4love is meeting OM's sister (SIL for this post) for coffee. The other day, SIL told car4love that her H is having an A and plans to D her. That's right - OM's sister is a betrayed wife, all of a sudden.

Car4love is suspicious, and doesn't want to reveal much to her SIL. But if it's true, and it probably is (would be tough to play-act that), then car4love could use advice on how to handle SIL tomorrow. She wants to be kind and compassionate. She doesn't want to reveal much for fear that SIL will take it back to OM and damage her case in court, but she wants SIL to walk away inclined to shake OM until his teeth rattle and try to make him think twice about his course.

There's an awful lot working against OM and the sparrow right now. They seem resistant as ever.

GC

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>

as the Borg would say in star trek, resistence is futile and one day things will catch up w/them. i think car4love and your intiuitiveness (sp?) in being guarded about what is revealed to SIL is dead on. i remember reading a post one time about a MIL who was acting like she was on the BW's side, they went out to breakfast and on and on and in the end what she (MIL) was doing was taking it all back to the WS. hopefully you guys will get more opinions here. good luck.

Yeah. And even Picard and 7of9 were able to come back to humanity after assimulation.

Is she close to her SIL? I am, and she's been my only IRL ally through this. Everyone else has washed their hands of me.

Tell her to tread carefully, and to just be an ear for now.

Hugs to car4love.

- Kimmy

If car4love is meeting with her SIL, I would suggest that she forget that OM exists for the time of that meeting.

It's NOT ABOUT car4love's marriage. Not in that two hours or whatever it is. It's about SIL and her marriage.

I'd suggest that car4love offer compassion, offer the things she's learned on MB. I would suggest, too, that she offer understanding, and one question: "I want to support you and your marriage. What can I do to help?"

The very best thing that SIL can take away from this meeting is that car4love isn't focused on her own pain and hurt, but is instead reaching out to help someone else who is hurt. That'll last more than any words do.

Yikes, RR! That's just evil.

Suspicions are high. They'd have to be stupid to think car4love would get suckered that way though. She's not one to be trifled with. If they're trying to send a double agent to her, they're in way over their heads.

I would think this level of nastiness would be beneath even OM's family, but I don't know. As I said, OM's sister would have to be a good actor.

GC

<small>[ August 31, 2004, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>

J, thank you for that advice. I suggested something similar. I hope she's reading this thread today, though she has amazingly good instincts.

My advice was to plan A EVERYBODY. That means don't dwell on the nasty behavior of OM and the sparrow. Instead, avoid the subject entirely, and be kind and compassionate and supportive. Without getting into anything about her own pain and her own crummy situation, she can get her SIL to go back to her family and say, boy, car4love is one spectacular person. OM is giving her up for what?

GC

2 carry the Star Trek metaphor even farther (here comes ol' 2long again!):

Plan A/Plan B are the Prime Directive. Non-interference, until they come 2 YOU for help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

I think she will do fine, not worried about her for this meeting.

Am worried about GC, wanting to know how he is doing, what he is feeling. He is pretty quiet about his own feelings, and it makes me wonder.

Still praying for both families.

SS

I will talk more later, SS. I have to work right now.

GC

SS, thank you for asking. I'm not doing all that great. Look out, because I'm guzzling self-pity.

Today I got a birthday card from my MIL. She said her advice for me is to move on with my life. She wants me to be happy, and has tried hard to convince the sparrow to rethink her decision to divorce me, but her words have had no impact.

Every new development stings. I remain vulnerable to them all. When I learned last week that the affairees are living together, I was not surprised, but the knowledge about knocked me over. When I went to the YMCA to work out on Saturday, I found that the day she returned from her trip the sparrow cancelled our membership. I was vulnerable even to such a small thing as that. No contact doesn't help. Every little step closer to being divorced feels like a small death. Every day without any contact hurts me.

Plan B is no answer. I would still get the same information that I get now. I would have no more expectation of hearing from her than I have now. The only difference is, I would have no chance to reach out to her in these small ways, and I look forward to the next small message I plan to send her.

Every day I ask myself the three questions: do you love her, do you want her back, and are you prepared to go through a recovery. Yes, yes, yes, I answer. But it has become routine. I don't know how to tell if it's true, except if it weren't I wouldn't hurt like this.

I was doing okay for a while, seemed to be dealing with things well and improving. But in the last few weeks I feel I've backpedaled, and everything feels new again.

I can't think of any way to make it hurt less. I sent the postcard yesterday. I try to pray. But the silence is torture.

So... as far as action goes, I don't know what else to do. I'm going to continue sending some kind of card or something each week.

My hope is dwindling, and I know I'll be okay again some day, but there's just no easy way to get from here to there.

The other thing I'm worried about is that some day I'm going to hate my wife. If we come away from this with two families broken apart, two children in a broken home, my wife unrepentant, I can't see how I could wish her well. She's had so many people beg her not to do this, it's almost ludicrous. She'll have no excuse. What I feel isn't anger, it's just an incredible disappointment and a profound loss to watch the fall of a person I believe in, and at the same time to be among her victims.

GC

gc:

"Today I got a birthday card from my MIL. She said her advice for me is to move on with my life. She wants me to be happy, and has tried hard to convince the sparrow to rethink her decision to divorce me, but her words have had no impact."

But you know that family and friends will say these things because they care about you and think they're doing the right thing. They're acting out of their love for you, perhaps trying 2 do what makes sense 2 them. Only they don't realize that logic fails when irrational emotions and behavior are involved.

And certainly, trying 2 convince the sparrow of anything she doesn't currently have her mind set on simply ain't going 2 work. Look at me. I forwarded an AWESOME article by Penny Tupy about conflict avoidance 2 my W last week. We talked about stuff, but we've only talked about maybe a half dozen such messages in the past 2 and a half years, and I've sent scores (more earlier than later). Oddly, the things that got most of the responses were emails I sent when I left her for a while. And even those she ignored if they were getting 2 "close 2 the mark."

You know that your W, or any other person, is NOT the source of your happiness. If you find inner peace, a relationship can unfold.

I admire you immensely for wanting 2 stay in plan A, even though she's Bing you. It's a lot harder 2 do. But I think BSs like that do so mainly out of a strong sense of integrity rather than fear. And I say that, not just because I'm not a plan B person, but because I believe I can hack it.

I believe you can 2, for a while, even though your sitch is much more "intense" than mine was.

I hope some of this was of use.
-ol' 2long

And remember, the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.

Thanks, 2long. I know that my in-laws don't know best. They understand neither the depth of my WW's confusion nor her motivation. When she tells them "I have been unhappy for a long time" they have no choice but to believe her, even though I know that it means "I haven't been this turned on and felt this 'in-love' euphoria for a while".

And I know that she can't be the source of my happiness. Well, that's not exactly true. Of course she can. Of at least some of it. But I certainly won't become "undefined" without my M to her.

I can hack it too, you're right. But these days I seem to be experiencing a new level of depression. I can feel it all over my body, like I did at the very beginning, before the ADs. I think I'm going to see my doc about it. It is quite unpleasant.

I love my MIL so much for sending me that card. I know my WW's actions hurt her terribly. Like the rest of the sparrow's family, she feels she can't openly support me any more without rejecting her daughter, which is unthinkable. Shoot, she even sent me money, bless her heart.

Hope is hard to hang onto sometimes. Indifference is exactly what I'm getting from the sparrow, and it's a real hope killer.

I wish I knew some tricks I could play on myself. Working on music is the only good one, and I can't do that all day. Cockroaches and poverty take over. I've seen it happen to good men. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

GC

GC - I know what you mean about the depression. I had been doing so much better but since this weekend the depression is back and it is horrible. When I left work today and got in the car I could harly breathe. I know this too will pass for both of us.

Kloe, you and I seem quite synchronized. We were both horrible, then a little better, and then horrible again. What gives? No fair getting yanked backward!

Top it off, I thought all her clothes were boxed up in the garage, then I went into a closet I haven't used in a while and pow, a ton of her jackets. Dang it.

She has so many clothes. I think a fair and equitable split of assets would be her getting her clothes and me getting everything else. Sheesh.

GC

No wonder we're synced, Kloe. My D-Day and the day the sparrow left were both within a week of the same things for you. The same for car4love, since the sparrow and OM coordinated it all. Or should I say the sparrow did, and OM went along, puppet that he is.

GC

GC - You're going to laugh at this one. When I saw your picture on the MB web site I had to do a double take. You look so much like a guy I dated in college for two years.

Well Kloe, that tears it. I can't top that one.

So I just had a nutty idea.

The sparrow would probably appreciate it if I didn't like her any more. Make doing her evil a little easier on her conscience.

I was thinking about calling her and telling her, you know sparrow, I might have a much easier time letting you go if I saw you once in a while. The way things are, my feelings for you are stuck in the same place where they were the day you left. If you spent some time with me it might make this whole thing a lot easier on me.

She'd probably see it as a mind trick. And maybe it is, a little. But I want to see her, and I don't want the next time to be in a divorce hearing.

Anyway... if I want to get together with her, would it be a cop-out for me to suggest it in a card, rather than calling her? The idea of talking to her on the phone does not appeal to me right now.

Pleeeease advise. Thanks GC

gray, a couple things....

first, when you said "They understand neither the depth of my WW's confusion nor her motivation. When she tells them "I have been unhappy for a long time" they have no choice but to believe her, even though I know that it means "I haven't been this turned on and felt this 'in-love' euphoria for a while"

man i could have said the same thing, my H told me that his family is glad he is finally happy. gee that made me feel wonderful. well when some day they have to deal w/the aftermath of H's current R falling apart or that one of the other marriages in the family (H is the oldest of 7 kids) falls apart. then maybe my IL's will actual finally understand the whole anatomy/nature of this whole mess. i was going to send my MIL/FIL and anniversary card this month but i don't think i'm going to. hard to wish them happy anniversary when they are not even supporting my marriage.

the D's will be final no matter what because of the no-fault states. maybe try to let that be your sign. that's not to say that you cannot get back together after a D, only that means that you did all you could up to that point and that sparrow has made up her mind at that point that is what she wants. after the D is final then it's up to you how you want to move forward. i certainly cannot be friends w/my H after a D. i think he has a lot of audacity to even think that i would want to remain friends while he is continuing a R w/OW. my life is on hold somewhat right now but certainly i do have a life. when the D is final, well, i will be able to move forward and i know God only wants the best for his children and who knows what he has planned for me.

it's a lot to deal with. i don't think anyone here will tell you any different GC but you're doing a good job. continued prayers to you, RR

SS, thank you for asking. I'm not doing all that great. Look out, because I'm guzzling self-pity.

Self Pity?
Maybe, but it looks more like loss of hope to me. You need to know it still MIGHT work, but you are loosing that.


Every new development stings. I remain vulnerable to them all. When I learned last week that the affairees are living together, I was not surprised, but the knowledge about knocked me over. When I went to the YMCA to work out on Saturday, I found that the day she returned from her trip the sparrow cancelled our membership. I was vulnerable even to such a small thing as that. No contact doesn't help. Every little step closer to being divorced feels like a small death. Every day without any contact hurts me.

You need contact for YOU, as much as she needs plan A. I know you are afraid it could go badly, but we can talk about that down near the end.


Plan B is no answer. I would still get the same information that I get now. I would have no more expectation of hearing from her than I have now. The only difference is, I would have no chance to reach out to her in these small ways, and I look forward to the next small message I plan to send her.

I think plan B would not work, she is doing that on her end, I think you still need some contact to make any kind of progress.

Every day I ask myself the three questions: do you love her, do you want her back, and are you prepared to go through a recovery. Yes, yes, yes, I answer. But it has become routine. I don't know how to tell if it's true, except if it weren't I wouldn't hurt like this.

I think you will say no if and when no is needed. Right now, yes is a good habit.


I was doing okay for a while, seemed to be dealing with things well and improving. But in the last few weeks I feel I've backpedaled, and everything feels new again.

More has happened, and also, you had a lot of time to think. I wish you had someone riding with you, on the way home, I bet your conversations were really one sided.

I can't think of any way to make it hurt less. I sent the postcard yesterday. I try to pray. But the silence is torture.

So... as far as action goes, I don't know what else to do. I'm going to continue sending some kind of card or something each week.

Call her and ask her about her trip. Don't be afraid of doing it. I know cards are safe, but you need more than that RIGHT NOW. Script what you will say, don't sound sad.

My hope is dwindling, and I know I'll be okay again some day, but there's just no easy way to get from here to there.

Yes, I know.
"The doc says I will be fine after the operation, but he gave me these pain pills, I wonder what I need them for?"

The other thing I'm worried about is that some day I'm going to hate my wife. If we come away from this with two families broken apart, two children in a broken home, my wife unrepentant, I can't see how I could wish her well. She's had so many people beg her not to do this, it's almost ludicrous. She'll have no excuse. What I feel isn't anger, it's just an incredible disappointment and a profound loss to watch the fall of a person I believe in, and at the same time to be among her victims.

I don't have an answer for that one. You are right that she will have no excuse. You are right in that you are watching a person fall. Would you say that they have equal responsibility? Or is one more at fault than the other?
Probably not important, but I wonder how you will respond.


Thanks, 2long. I know that my in-laws don't know best. They understand neither the depth of my WW's confusion nor her motivation. When she tells them "I have been unhappy for a long time" they have no choice but to believe her, even though I know that it means "I haven't been this turned on and felt this 'in-love' euphoria for a while".

That's the chemical part for sure. The new love thing - excitement, and all that stuff. I would hate to be her when it wears off. I wish it were sooner than later.

And I know that she can't be the source of my happiness. Well, that's not exactly true. Of course she can. Of at least some of it. But I certainly won't become "undefined" without my M to her.

You have this part better than many. Yes, they are a good part of our happiness, but I am very successful in my own right, and so are you. Your pain is right and proper given the space we give to them in our hearts. Time and patience, and you can't rush it any way I can see. Darn it anyway.

I can hack it too, you're right. But these days I seem to be experiencing a new level of depression. I can feel it all over my body, like I did at the very beginning, before the ADs. I think I'm going to see my doc about it. It is quite unpleasant.

It looks like the pain and depression are cumulative. I was hoping the vacation would blow out the feelings, but it looks like they continue with you even now. I think you need action.
"We are men of action."
What movie is that from 2long?

I love my MIL so much for sending me that card. I know my WW's actions hurt her terribly. Like the rest of the sparrow's family, she feels she can't openly support me any more without rejecting her daughter, which is unthinkable. Shoot, she even sent me money, bless her heart.

Like many, she cares, but she doesn't know what to do. There is no handbook for this one, and she is lost. I am glad she cares that much, and shows it in the only way she knows. BTW, I care too, just for the record, and so does 2long, even if he doesn't say it that way. ( he is fun to tease anyway, just so you know.)

Hope is hard to hang onto sometimes. Indifference is exactly what I'm getting from the sparrow, and it's a real hope killer.

I wish I knew some tricks I could play on myself. Working on music is the only good one, and I can't do that all day. Cockroaches and poverty take over. I've seen it happen to good men.

Yes, good men, and none better than you.

I think you need action.

I think you need a plan. I would like to see you write up a plan to contact her about something twice a week. Something real, not contrived.

How was your trip? I never did hear.
What do you think about me getting dog? I am not sure about it.

You judge your success by how well you run the plan, not by what she says or does not say. When you hang up the phone, you do the snoopy dance, and say " I did it, I contacted her." You do this no matter how she responds to your contact.

You know the stories, you understand in your head, the need for contact, but your heart - ah, your heart.

If your heart is to heal, some things have to happen. Lets make them happen.

(this part is supposed to make you smile)
What are you afraid of............ that talking to her will make her file for D?

SS