</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More has happened, and also, you had a lot of time to think. I wish you had someone riding with you, on the way home, I bet your conversations were really one sided.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They were indeed. Mainly though, the trip put into stark relief how alone I am. The absence of the sparrow on a vacation with me was a constant reminder of her rejection of me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you say that they have equal responsibility? Or is one more at fault than the other?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is more at fault. OM pursued her at first, but when she fell for him, she became very aggressive. He has shown doubt about what he is doing. But I'm convinced that she is fighting now to keep this thing going. The last time we talked, she talked about him being so confused, about not knowing "his a-hole from his armpit", but she also said, "I think I'm in love with him."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's the chemical part for sure. The new love thing - excitement, and all that stuff. I would hate to be her when it wears off. I wish it were sooner than later.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish it were sooner too. If the A is going to end, it's a race between that and the D, and of course there remains the question of whether the end of the A means another chance for the M anyway. That will still be up to her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are you afraid of............ that talking to her will make her file for D?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Haw haw. Actually, a little. She served me shortly after a very good meeting that we had, were I think I planted many seeds of doubt. You see, when I responded to service at 29 days, it had not been filed yet. I assume they were just waiting for my response, hoping I would make it easy. I am kind of waiting for the notification of the first case management conference. I could always have my lawyer check to see if it's been filed.

But let's put that aside.

You're completely right, SS. I have to reach out to her with my real voice. I'm going to do this. Probably on Saturday. Here are the ins and outs.

I'm going to be out of state for my friends' wedding, where I'm performing during and after the ceremony. It's going to be hard. I'll be at a wedding, performing a beautiful Woody Guthrie song while my friends, who I love dearly, walk out to take their vows. Okay, I'm rambling.

First, the logistics. OM will have his DD for her first overnight with him on Saturday night, and so probably the sparrow won't be with him. Unless he plans to introduce her to her new stepmother-to-be. Yikes. I'm sure they've talked about the sparrow getting acquainted with his DD. Car4love does not approve of the sparrow getting anywhere near her DD, but she can't do anything much to stop it either. She thinks her DD has met the sparrow, but also figures OM could make her promise not to tell her mother who they were with. The child is two years old and will probably do what he says.

Okay, I'll be in SoDak, and the wedding is in the afternoon. If there's no cellular signal at the house where the wedding is being held (out in the country), I'll have to go into Sioux Falls and find a comfortable place to make the call. The problem - sparrow might want to take advantage of my absence to come by the house and get "stuff" or sniff around, and I haven't changed the locks. But I can't lie to her and tell her I'm home. In fact, my being there, getting ready to perform, would make for good conversation. I can tell her I'm nervous (I'm sure I will be) and ask for reassurance.

But I'll have to let go of the desire to keep her from taking advantage of my absence to come to the house, and just live with the possibility. The big worry is that she'll actually bring it up, say she wants to get things, ask where they are, etc. This will direct the conversation into an area I don't want it to go. If I did manage to get the locks changed, I'd have to tell her that. There's not a good way to talk about her coming to the house, and I'm quite nervous about it as you can probably tell.

So but I can tell her I'm getting ready to perform, and I can admit that I'm nervous and see where that goes.

And I can ask about her trip.

I think I'll save the conversation about the dog for another time.

My general concern about this conversation is that she'll direct it to things about divorce - picking things up at the house, for instance. When I ask about her trip, she might bring up the letter I wrote her grandmother, assuming that she knows about it (it's entirely possible of course that she doesn't).

These worries aren't excuses not to call, just things I want to be prepared for.

Finally, I need to keep the conversation short. No more than 5-10 minutes, I'd say.

Should I say at the very beginning that I can't talk long, but that I wanted to say hello?

Hm, so I tell her, I'm in SoDak, the wedding is in a few hours, and I'm getting ready for that. I'm a little nervous about the performance. I hope it goes well, hope I don't forget the words (long song) or lose my pitch or have PA trouble or get emotional.

I can tell her about my cool outfit that I'll be wearing, black pants, a black western shirt, and a white tie (not quite the man in black, but close).

Then I'll ask about the trip.

Okay, this is a biiiig post already. Responses are welcome!

GC

She is more at fault. OM pursued her at first, but when she fell for him, she became very aggressive. He has shown doubt about what he is doing. But I'm convinced that she is fighting now to keep this thing going.


If a good time comes up, you can ask her why she is fighting so hard to take a father away from his child. I believe promptings come for things like that, and I believe you will know what I mean.


I wish it were sooner too. If the A is going to end, it's a race between that and the D, and of course there remains the question of whether the end of the A means another chance for the M anyway. That will still be up to her.

That's something we can worry about later. You are right, she will have to choose, but so will you. You will have choices too, you do now.

I think a great deal of people that work so hard to save a M when they are getting no help from their WS. I know you don't feel much like a hero, but that's what you are. That includes all you others that post to GC too, you are hero's also.


I have to reach out to her........... Here are the ins and outs.

I'm going to be out of state for my friends' wedding, where I'm performing during and after the ceremony. It's going to be hard. I'll be at a wedding, performing a beautiful Woody Guthrie song while my friends, who I love dearly, walk out to take their vows. Okay, I'm rambling.

No, not rambling. I know it seems to you like you can't get your thoughts together, but you are really doing well for what is happening. From outside, you look really good, don't sweat it so much.


I wouldn't change the locks yet. It sounds like it would just make things more difficult. It's just stuff, you can replace that. (you shouldn't have to, and some of it may have emotional value, but really, it's just stuff.)


If she brings it up, ask her to wait, tell her you can work it all out during the rest of the process. Be vague, don't say the D word.


So but I can tell her I'm getting ready to perform, and I can admit that I'm nervous and see where that goes.

That's excellant!! Ask her for help, tell her your nerves are shot, and ask her to "tell me I can do this."

"With all that has happened, I am so on edge, and I don't want to get up there and mess up, you know me well, please tell me I can do this. "

Remember, this is just an idea, you need to translate it into YOUR WORDS. Actually, you came up with it first, and I am just encouraging you. Good idea.


And I can ask about her trip.


Or keep the first one short, and about you performing. Then ask her about the trip the next time.

"You know, I wanted to ask you about your trip the other day when I talked to you, but I didn't have time. It must have been fun, tell me about it." I am sure you can think of a better way to ask.

I think I'll save the conversation about the dog for another time.


Yes, another time.


My general concern about this conversation is that she'll direct it to things about divorce - picking things up at the house, for instance.

"I need to sing in a few minutes, I don't have time to talk about that right now, but I'll call you when I get back. "

Then ask about the trip, and think of how you can stall.

"I'm not ready for D yet, I just can't handle it rignt now. Can we wait a few months, and talk about this later?"
You know her best, what will she have the easiest time understanding, and accepting?"


When I ask about her trip, she might bring up the letter I wrote her grandmother, assuming that she knows about it (it's entirely possible of course that she doesn't).

"Yes, I am trying to save our marriage. Forgive me if I am going about it the wrong way, but I want to grow old with YOU, so I am doing the only things I know how to do to save it."

Turn it around, to something good. Don't say sorry, you are not, but turn it around if you can. She may be angry, and we are doing best case here, she may in fact be livid, but do the snoopy dance if you contact her and talk, that's your goal, because remember, others who came back were angry too, and only later admitted that it got through to them.

These worries aren't excuses not to call, just things I want to be prepared for.

Agree - make a list, and write your response. It will keep it in your mind better.

Finally, I need to keep the conversation short. No more than 5-10 minutes, I'd say.

Agree.

Should I say at the very beginning that I can't talk long, but that I wanted to say hello?

"I need help, I am here in SD, getting ready to sing at this wedding, and I am having a really hard time. After all that has happened, I have a hard time believing in myself, please tell me I can do this.....other stuff you want to say.......
Oh, I have to go, talk to you later."


Hm, so I tell her, I'm in SoDak, the wedding is in a few hours, and I'm getting ready for that. I'm a little nervous about the performance. I hope it goes well, hope I don't forget the words (long song) or lose my pitch or have PA trouble or get emotional.

You got it - and all your fears are real, but you have been up there lots of times, and you do well, I think you will do well this time too. I was always told if you have PA troubles, talk really loud. Sing louder. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I can tell her about my cool outfit that I'll be wearing, black pants, a black western shirt, and a white tie (not quite the man in black, but close).

Whatever works, talk about whatever works, and you know her, you know what she would be interrested in, and what she would normally ask about before when you would perform.

Then I'll ask about the trip.
Up to you, if you need something else, but if you can fill the time with the above stuff, save it.

Okay, this is a biiiig post already. Responses are welcome!

I wish you were talking to Steve or Jen every week, but since you are not, we will try to help. Remember that (right now) it's running the plan, not how she reacts. Thank her if she offers you encouraging words. Thanks her lots.

You'll have lots of prayers, we really do care.

SS
I will be out of town over the weekend, and have no net access, it's not that I would avoid you on purpose.

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS, I think this business of talking about performance anxiety is a great way to stick my foot in this door. That's really what I need when I'm hesitant to make contact, an excuse. If I were to just call her and tell her I miss her and would like to chat, that's no good. It makes me seem weak and helpless. But if in the face of this performance I admit some vulnerability, I think that's a good thing.

Something that annoys her about me is that I'm right all the time. The last time she came to our house (that I know of) she asked some question about a bill or expense, something complicated that she had totally backward. I explained how I thought it was supposed to be, then she disagreed, and I said, "Maybe you're right; I'm not sure. The file is on the desk, why don't you have a look at it?" She did, found I had it right, and came back and said, "Correct as usual." There seemed to be a little spite in that comment.

Point is, I think showing some vulnerability and imperfect confidence is a good thing for me. Right now, what the sparrow is probably getting from herself and her family is that I'm virtuous, full of integrity, almost beyond reproach. In many ways she feels that only she knows how crummy I can be. By showing some weakness, I think I volunteer to come down there with all the humans for a while. Please don't get me wrong; this is not how I see myself. It's how I imagine that she sees me.

Tonight, if I can find the time, I'll work on my plan and try to post it. My decision tree!

Thanks again, SS. I'm looking forward to this!

What if she doesn't answer her phone? I guess I'll need to script my message too. Be prepared, right?

GC

GC, i don't have a lot of time but just wanted to ditto all of what SS said and would even go as far as to say this would probably be how SH would advise. it sounds a lot like what happened w/me.

the only thing that i'm concerned w/at this point and not that it necessarily matters to you. is the continued involvment or information exchange w/car4love. i say this because it seems to me like this might be keeping some wounds open for you. i understand you want to help her but there's a point where she needs to be the one that come here. maybe i'm wrong and really out in left field w/this line of thinking. but it's something that really has spoke out to me in reading some of your posts lately. i would be interested to know what SH or JH's thoughts would be on this.

anyway, you're doing a good job, have a great head on your shoulders and have a lot of good pointers in this thread from SS and others. stay the course and prayers to you, RR

RR, car4love and I are good allies. We share information and advise one another on our plans. I try not to get caught up in their drama, but you are right, getting all the information makes me more vulnerable. It also improves the odds that our spouses will return, and having our wounds reopened now and then is the price we pay for that.

The flip side is, naturally, what good are those improved chances if either of us is too hurt to accept our spouse back if they decide they want to return?

The chances of my wife coming back to me are slim enough now that I'm willing to risk my own ability to recover. She is still the one most likely to end this marriage.

GC

The chances of my wife coming back to me are slim enough now that I'm willing to risk my own ability to recover. She is still the one most likely to end this marriage.

If I was going to edit this (above) I would change it to read:

The chances of my wife coming back to me look slim enough now that I'm willing to risk my own ability to recover. She is still the one most likely to end this marriage.

I think you know her well, and perhaps the chances really are slim, but I remind you that we really don't know, and you have to run the plan as though it will work 200%.

I like your ideas, it looks like you have it down pretty good. I wish I could hear you play, I should have gone up the campground in the evening and made you play then.

SS

GC, I want to apologize for not having gotten back to you on your latest email. We have quite a bit going on here. We will know in a few days - but it looks like we may become legal guardians to my 16 year old niece. No one ever said that life is supposed to be dull.

I will try to respond more later - but I did want to warn you on one thing. If you enter back in to your wifes life - it is likely that she will again feel pressure to push you away - to force you to move on - and will likely push even harder for the divorce. I'm not saying that to change your mind - SS has some very good points as to why contact would be a GOOD thing. I just want to give you fair warning.

h4f, thank you. It's wonderful to hear from you. What you wrote is exactly what I have been wanting to ask you about.

I have started to have a few doubts about reaching out to the sparrow. It's not fear, believe me.

So far, she has not complained about the cards I send. She's not responded to them in any way at all. In a way, that's good. She must be seeing them.

The every-few-weeks cards are very gentle reminders that I exist. I have closed a couple with "miss you", and I've signed a few "love, gc", but the contents of the notes have been very light and pleasant. Nonetheless, the "miss you"s are meant to convey in a small way that I expect her to return.

Maybe I should turn up the frequency of the cards a little before I make a call.

Perhaps I should have my lawyer check to verify that the divorce has been filed. I expect it has, but don't know. A week and a half ago, it had not.

I won't have much more chance to agonize over this. If I'm going to make the call now, Saturday is the time to do it. I have a good excuse. The day she left, I asked her if there is anything about me she finds appealing. She said that when she sees me play music she feels something for me. Talking about a performance could be a reminder of that.

The only thing I can do to figure out where the sparrow stands is to consider what MIL wrote in the birthday card she sent:

--
I've been hoping sparrow would re-think her decision about a divorce but it appears she is going ahead. My heart is so sad to see her throw away ten years of marriage without trying everything to try and get back to where you guys were.

My advice to you is to get on with your life. You are such a wonderful guy and all I want for you is to be happy.

I'm sorry for sparrow's decision. I love her but I believe she is making a huge mistake. Anyway honey, I love and care about you and only want the best for you.

I'll call you soon to see what's going on with you. It's so hard for me because I love you both...
--

So there it is. I do not know if MIL knows the status of this A any more. OM told his lawyer that things between them have "cooled", which I think is a lie given that her car was parked at his house every night at the time. Nobody has checked in a week, but car4love saw my Beatles CDs in his car today (RRRRRRRRRRRR!). And I think the sparrow has no other place to go right now, so she must be at his place. What a mess.

Speaking of which, she knows I know her lease is up. It seems a little thoughtless if I don't bring it up if I call her, but discussing her living situation is a huuuuge can of worms. It would take a huge paragraph to explain how. Just trust me for now, it is something I don't want to get into with her.

Shoot, I just want somebody to tell me what to do. It's so hard to see the right thing.

Okay, enough for tonight. I hope I get a chance to check in tomorrow. Night all,

GC

Thanks GC for clarifiying and allaying any of my concerns. Not that's what your goal in life is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> but anyway, you described it best when you conveyed the risks.


When you said "Shoot, I just want somebody to tell me what to do. It's so hard to see the right thing." This is exactly how so many of us feel almost on an hourly basis but especially when we attempt contact w/WS or thinking about them contacting us, etc. I probably wouldn't send something to her more than once a week but that's my opinion. i think it's worth a call to your lawyer to ask if she has filed. i need to talk to my lawyer again and i'm going to ask if he can check on this as well.

but additionally, something that i have also expressed and something I feel you contemplate more often now is what God would have you do and for that you just need to pray. God Bless, RR

Don't take what MIL said to heart, ok? Nobody knew what was going through my mind and my heart when everything I DID said I was certain of what I wanted. I do not believe for one moment that she's been able to fully avoid her feelings for you, regardless of what she says to anyone else.

I am worried that coming forward will just push forth the divorce process. I wonder if just keeping the low-pressure reminders wouldn't allow for more time for the A to crumble and fall on its own. But on the other hand, the reality of the divorce process is very painful, and would likely cause even more pain and pressure on their relationship. So there really is no definate path that will give definate results.

You really have to look at yourself and decide what you can take and what will work for you. Because if more rejection from her is only going to drain your lovebank quicker - then you might want to make sure you don't push too much. Because when there's presumed pressure - a WS will fight back like a cornered animal.

As far as your last email goes - I had fully intended on writing you back right away...but as I said, life took over. All I was going to tell you was that I don't think that mulling over the past is going to help you all the much right now. IF she comes back and IF she wants to go to couseling - that's something that a counselor might look at and talk to her about. But I don't think you're going to find any answers there. Mainly because you would have only a partial view of the situation and it would not be unbiased. It's a standard male reaction to think they can 'fix' something if they just think about it hard enough - but you can't fix her. It's not your place to even try. You have to just take care of yourself and focus on the present.

This was posted by Penny Tupy on her site saveyourmarriagecentral.com I don't think she'd mind if I shared.

Conversation with a former WP - all is not as it appears on the outside:

If you are the betrayed spouse looking at an affair from the outside all you see are the actions that are so deeply painful and destructive. It looks, to the world, as if your partner (or even former partner) has moved on and is fine with his or her life. But that is only one side of a very multi dimensional picture. And, as we talked about the other day on another topic, it's impossible to see the forest when your nose is pressed up against a tree.

Another side of that picture is the experience of the straying partner. And although it looks settled and moving on - I'm not convinced that's the case. In fact, I'm fairly convinced that it's quite the opposite in more cases than not.

I had an opportunity this weekend to chat with another former straying partner who left the marriage and subsequently married the affair partner. That marriage also ended in divorce. This person was generous enough to allow me to probe some pretty painful memories and to answer with an amazing depth of honesty.

These were the questions I asked (and that I would like to ask of many more people in similar situations) and the answers I got.

I need to let you know too that knowing this person for a few years I had some prior knowledge that there was some regret about the affair and the divorce so I started with that premise.

I asked -

At what point in time did you regret your decision to leave the marriage for your affair partner?

A: There was never a time when I did NOT regret doing so.

Did you plan to leave the marriage?

A: I knew I would after the first time we had sex. I knew my spouse would take me back no matter what, and that didn't help. It made it worse.

What could your spouse have done differently, if anything to affect a different outcome?

A: S/he could have told me that I was causing him/her pain and that it wasn't ok. S/he could have confronted me with it every day. S/he should have refused to leave our home rather than meekly folding up and leaving.

S/he could have told more people. No one really knew – no one at work, no one where we lived so there was no disapproval to face.

Did you think that you would get back together at some point?

A: It was always in the back of my mind that we would – that I wanted it to happen.

Why didn’t you? What stopped you?

A: I had been so adamant with everyone (friends and family) that this (the affair partner) was what I wanted that I felt I had to go through with it……

So you were saving face?

A: Absolutely. And I also always had this little thought in the back of my mind that no one from our church ever contacted me.

Never confronted you?

A: Right. Except the pastor…. Not even that, it was the former pastor who had been a friend, but not the current pastor.

So no one from your church contacted you to say, “What the heck are you doing?” Would it have made a difference?

A: I don’t know, but I think it might have.


Now, let me tell you that much like me, this person has moved on, been successful at work, now has a home/family that is happy and stable and that no one looking in from the outside would ever imagine the deep hole of pain and regret that never goes away. My belief is that this is the universal experience of someone who has an affair – particularly those affairs that end a marriage. I also think that in this conversation there are very valuable pieces of information that we as marriage advocates or betrayed spouses (or both) can use.

First – don’t believe what you see and hear, it’s a façade and is not a true picture of what goes on in the heart and mind of another person.

Second – being “nice” and refusing to rock the affair boat either by confrontation, exposure, refusing to leave the home, or later by entering Protection Phase and ending all contact is not helpful. It allows the affair to continue longer. It keeps the momentum moving towards the ending of the marriage. And it creates an expressway for the affair to move ahead. This is true whether one is the betrayed partner or a friend, relative, or colleague of the straying spouse.

Finally – If we are going to succeed in turning the tide against the epidemic of infidelity and the destruction it leaves in its wake, then we all need to take a stand – because an affair is not a love story – and yes, it is your business.

~~~

As a corrolary to this, someone called me the other day asking for info about SYMC. We had a very nice conversation, and in the middle of it s/he mentioned that their marriage was also a result of an affair. My little ears perked right up and I said (a wee bit eagerly), "Could I ask you a couple of questions?"

S/he replied in the affirmative and so I asked very similar questions I had asked of my friend above. The answers were startlingly similar, but the one that sent shivers up and down my spine was this - When I asked, "At what point did you regret the affair - if ever," the response was almost word for word identical. "I always regretted it."

For those of you betrayed spouses, please look beyond your emotions and understand that what you see on the surface is not reality. Simply because someone says something (like I never loved you or so and so is my soul mate) does not make it so.

If you are unfortunate enough to be the one having the affair you CAN come home. We'll help you. I know it is incredibly painful and possibly even a bit embarassing. I would challenge you however to look years down the road - the regret and the deep hole of sorrow do not go away. The wild sex with an affair partner does, the feeling that love will conquer all certainly does, and the idea of happily ever after is a dream. But that dark boding sad place where your family used to live cannot be filled or left behind. If you choose to follow the path of an affair and divorce that darkness will stay with you for the rest of your life.

i would also add that SH told me that the WS are not necessarily "happy" it's mor eof what they are doing is in the pursuit of happiness. because they are certainly predicting the future on the current emotions and can only see the unhappiness in the marriage and use that to judge the future of the same marriage in that it will never be happy. SH also told me that often once the WS makes decisions or choices such as moving in w/the OP or introducing the OP to family then it becomes that if they came back to the marriage or that it didn't work out w/the OP then they would be perceived as weak and that a lot of what they do is out of an obligation to the choices they have made in the A.

RR, OM has told car4love some of these things. Thank you for getting in on it this morning. I'm going to check for more responses tonight from SoDak. I'm filled with doubts now. I'm going to think very hard about it, and ask my friend to help me (he's driving). He's not much good with relationships (total left brainer), but if I educate him some more, I think that might be helpful to me right now. It's a long drive.

H4F, I've thought a lot about being MORE tough on her, I really have. The one thing I do have going for me is she does not seem to feel I'm controlling any more. I'm a great guy as far as I can tell. The times we met, she would get snarly very quickly if I wasn't careful with her, but she ended every meeting telling me how wonderful I am.

Finally - there are some rumblings out there that things are not wonderful in affair-land, or at least that the sparrow and OM are not joined at the hip at the present moment. More noise, or a trend? Dunno. But if they are pulling apart, maybe I should be gentle a while longer.

Bah! So confused. Please advise. Thanks,

GC

If things are in turmoil between them - again, if she feels any pressure from you it will add to the overwhelming confusion and pressure she's already feeling. That doesn't mean that's the wrong thing to do - just be prepared for her words and actions to be a product of that stress and pressure. The more a WS feels their dream slipping away - the more they will fight for it in the eyes of the doubters. If left to their own devices, however, they will likely trash it plenty.

I don't see there being a RIGHT answer to what you should do - as long as you can live with the outcome. Meaning - if you want to try to resume contact, go for it, but tread lightly and don't look for her to give you any hope. If you can handle the probable rejection for the good of your Plan A - then do it. Just be prepared.

Gray -

Wanted to add that I read somewhere that Harley said to greatest threat to the marriage is the BS, because of the loss of love that often happens.

There is no way your WW is happy. A happy woman does not take a man away from a pregnant wife and toddler, it goes against all womanhood and humanity. OM is bad enough in his betrayal but he is not a woman, protector & nuturer of children. And your WW will not be able to stay with him, because of what they have done. Right now she is in the fog, and rationalizing, but when this ends, it will hit her hard. It would take an extremely callous, cold woman to be able to live with what was lost at her and OM's hands.

The real threat is you, you probably will have a chance to win her back after the affair crashes, but you may very well not want her. And with no deposits what so ever from her to your love bank, I just don't see how you can hold on loving her much longer.

I guess my point is, take the advice to tread softly and expect NOTHING in return for now, because you probably can't withstand much more hurt from her.

<small>[ September 03, 2004, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

We have fears for you too, and we don't come here and talk to you without worrying.

So, we worry, but it's not the same, because you live there, we just visit and say hi.

I agree with the other posters thoughts.

One of the reasons I encourage contact is that I want you to her her voice and remember why you love her. If she is abrasive (always a gamble) you will wonder why you are trying. I think the call before you perform is a stroke of genuis, you really could use some reassurance. I am hoping she gives it - and I think she will if she still has some basic human goodness in her. I hope she does, for her as much as for you.

I also thought about.........what if she is mean on the phone, and it really hurts. I think you can still do a good job at the wedding, because I think you are that kind of man, so I encourage you.

Hope4future is very wise, having been there herself, she has good insight. I agree that it could backfire if you preasure her. That's why I suggest you keep it low key. Ask for help, a kind word. Ask about her trip, ask what she thinks about the dog. Get her to help YOU.

If she asks how you are, you can be honest.

"sometimes I'm a basket case, sometimes I do really good and think I can get through this. To be honest, this has hurt more than I could have ever imagined something could hurt."

I don't mean to say that you have been a basket case, but - you know, examples.

I know you want to know exactly what to do, but God is the only one that knows that, we just give advice based on our experiances. We can't read her mind, but HE can.

Don't be afraid to tell him the truth, that you want to know, but that you doubt. Tell him you need help, explain what's going on. Say what you think you will do, ask if it's right.

There are times when we need all the help we can get.

SS

Thanks everyone. I'm not sure I'm going to do it. I'm going to sit in my tent tonight (camping with some wedding people) and reflect on it and try to find an answer.

I don't think she's indecent enough to be nasty to me. The more vulnerable I am, the harder it will be for her to be cruddy. The more I think of it... I don't believe she'll go that way. But that's my faith in her, groundless as it seems.

And it will be no lie when I tell her I'm having a tough time. I already am. Tonight was the rehearsal. Whoo. Wait 'til tomorrow. It's gonna be blistering. But I can hack it man.

Okay, thanks everybody. I'm going to look here again tomorrow if I get a chance. I'm greedy for advice and information. Night,

GC

If you can prepare yourself to handle it if she's cold, indifferent or downright mean - and if you can be soft and vulnerable without being needy and weak - then make contact. Just keep it light and only give her just a taste. Enough to keep her feelings for you humming in the back of her mind - haunting her time with the OM. If she felt like she wasn't needed, before - then tell her how hard it is for you to prepare for this when you're used to having her strength and support behind you - you're used to seeing her beautiful face in the crowd. I can't imagine she wouldn't like hearing that.

<small>[ September 04, 2004, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: hope4future ]</small>

I am always suprised that anyone believes that a WS has no regrets for having an A. OF COURSE your WW has regrets and will for the rest of her life.
She regrets that she has put herself, you, her children, him, his wife, his children, family members, friends and anyone else through the pain and embarassment.
She regrets that she did not come to you long ago and voice her dissatisfaction.
She regrets that she was not stonger and self-confident enough to resist temptation.
She regrets ever feeling the need to be out of her M, and not doing it the "right" way, and before he came into the picture.
She regrets knowing that her relationship with OM began based on lies and deception.
And on and on.
I would even guess that if she could turn back time, knowing what she knows now, she would not do it again.
But she does not regret the way he makes her feel now. She does not regret the time she is spending with him now.
If she returns, in time she will regret what happened between the two of them. If she does not return, she will regret what happened between the two of you. There is always regret with an A.

No answer. I left her a short message. No time for a call-back. But I did it... gotta go play.

gc