Thanks johnh; how about a suggestion?

Plan B isn't a good idea. It would be redundant. My WW has made no effort to contact me in almost two months. Telling her I'm going to avoid any contact with her would make no sense.

GC

hey gc. I think that what you're doing right now *is* different than what you've done in the past and how's it working for ya? Well, you just don't know yet, do you?

I agree with john that something different from what you've done before is what's necessary. But I think you've accomplished that. I also think plan b would not make any sense right now.

At first you talked about the R..you both did. That's didn't work. Then you respected her NC. That didn't really work either. So now you've reinitiated contact in a VERY low pressure way. one that does not even require her to respond if she does not want to. (I'm more explaining to john how I view this, rather than you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

GC, I said this earlier in my post to you, but I feel that what you're doing now is really good for your heart.

Good golly, maddyk. You understand what I'm doing better than I do!

Sometimes we know what we're doing, but we're not very articulate about it.

I'd love to find out someday that sparrow is keeping my "white doves".

Ooooooooh, I'm cranky today. I'm sitting at my desk, trying to work, and every time somebody comes up behind me I want to bite his head off. Let me finish my freakin' yogurt! Sheesh. Nothing bugs me like people jumping on you the second you walk in the door.

Happy gray, happy gray.

GC

GC,
I think if it makes you feel good, go with it. I myself am in plan B and I would like nothing more than to send a little something to my WS. But I know I shouldn't. But when I was in plan A sending cards and things made me feel oh so wonderful. Do what you must do for you. A plan B letter doesn't seem appropriate right now, though I'm no expert on these matters. I wish you the best...
Joe

johnh:

Just for clarification. Gc's and my sitches are pretty different. My W never left, and currently Penny believes that the contact will cease if I just don't give it any power over me. I think we've still got a slow recovery ahead of us, but that's where we are.

-ol' 2long

Don't be cranky. It's not becomming of someone of your high birth and educational attainments.

I think the discussion is going well, and the major points are being brought out.

The calls you are doing now are different. You are making them about her, not about the A. You are asking for help, not teaching or discussing.

Remember, we make SUGGESTIONS, you get to do what you want. Don't feel bad about making the decisions, it's your life.

I'll be away for a few days again. I know you have plenty of good help, but I'll pray for you anyway.

SS

Well, I feel crappy again. Just got a copy of a proposed divorce agreement my wife and her lawyer put together.

Blah.

GC

Actually, here's something. I feel like telling her what it feels like to get these things. I think she should know. I think I might call her and tell her.

She served me right before our anniversary. She sent this divorce agreement right before I had to play at the wedding. I want to tell her that it would be incredibly painful to receive these things at any time, and that she has been especially cruel and insensitive in her timing of these little events she creates.

What do you all think of that? I know I'm going on emotion right now. But I have been looking for an excuse to tell her she's hurting me terribly. No compassionate stuff, just a reasonable protest.

By the way, she does not want to go through mediation with me. It's expensive. The only thing she's giving me that is an unequal division of things is everything in the house. But she also expects me to buy her out of the mortgage and give her a check for some hogwash gift interest in the house. This is so not fun.

GC

Repeat after me...

"My well being, and attitude depend on how well I run my plan, not on how my W reacts, or what she does the next few months, because I know she is in the fog."

Repeat over and over until Dec 10th, then we'll let you rest until the 11th.

SS

Okay, let me get just one more out...

I want to call her and ask her why she can't even be a human being and have a conversation with me without hiding behind her her lawyer.

We slept together just weeks ago!

Here it comes, here it comes...

How can she do this?
Something so obviously unhealthy and dysfunctional.
Something that it's clear to anybody watching is weak, cowardly, selfish, and cruel.

Okay, thanks. I'm not freaking. Much.

GC

I wish I had time to talk more right now. It helps to keep things light most days, but this is real serious stuff, and I don't mean to make light of your feelings.

Your saying it's not fun is a real understatement, I can't pretend, I know it hurts.

It's just - well, what else can you do? You can run your plan, you can tell yourself you can get through it, and then you live each day the best you can. Often it's better than you thought you could.

She ought to know it hurts, but can you say it the right way, without breaking down, or Love Busting? Do you have a feel for what the right way would be?


One of the reasons I keep on you, is that MB methods are often backwards from our feelings. Counterintutive.
They work the best, but feel wrong.

I don't know if what you are wanting to do will do damage. I did feel strongly that asking her about the trip, and the dog would do no damage, and have a chance to help.

What do you think, you know her much better than we do?

SS

I don't know, SS. I've done the MB things, and they seem to have done no good. I almost wonder if I should have freaked out and screamed and yelled somewhere along the way. I've made this all so easy. I've responded to cruelty with kindness. I've calmly set boundaries when I've needed to, and I've done it all without a single LB.

Receiving this legal stuff is like watching your whole life get taken apart. It's a new feeling for me. Very unpleasant. Makes me dizzy.

GC

Gray- I guess all u can really do right now is keep those little contacts going. I don't know man. I do know what u mean about making things easy on her. Besides my one rage attack when I went off on her, I feel like I laid out a yellow brick road to divorce. I just thought that her seeing the guy for who he is(an [censored]) would make her want to come home. So I let her have as much of him as she wanted. She sees who he is now and thinks he is an [censored], but feels that things have gone to far for HER to come back. It's a win/lose there.

On the other hand maybe u sending notes has made her feel like u r there this whole time. Maybe she needs to have NC with u to feel what it's like completely without u, but maybe not. My advice on this sucks, sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Juke, the fact is, I've sent her, let's see... three things since we last spoke in mid-July. Three items in two months. Is that enough for her to feel my presence in her life? Seems like not much.

I probably should not react to this at all, except through my attorney.

The divorce is going to be FAST. By November it may all be over with. I think I'm going to ask for more in the settlement. She doesn't have much bargaining power. It's clear from the proposed agreement that she wants to get it done without ever having to see me. If I deprive her of that, it's going to be harder for her.

GC

gc:

Then "deprive her of that", not because you wish 2 be vindictive, but because it's your last oppor2nity 2 be in a position 2 "help her" face the consequences of her actions.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan B isn't a good idea. It would be redundant. My WW has made no effort to contact me in almost two months. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right, but you HAVE made an effort to contact her. So it would not be redundant, it would be a change of behavior. Can it save your marriage? Maybe not, but continuing on the course you are on will certainly not, so you lose nothing by trying. So, do you say nothing and wait two months to see if she contacts you, & if she does call, you Plan A her during your conversation, but go dark again afterward? Do you send a Plan B letter and refuse to talk to her if she calls? Some variation thereof? I'm not sure. Probably whichever feels most unnatural for you is the right course of action.

Gray and 2Long: Sorry if I sounded testy or disrespectful. I played doormat for so long, and still struggle with it, that I have a visceral negative reaction when I get even a wiff of it that I find hard to control. Sorry if I spewed on you.

Cerri is far more qualified than I to give advice to begin with, and if you are working with her, obviously knows the details of your sitch better than I, as well. I really do wish you well, 2.

2long, no worries about me being vindictive. I don't know how to be that way. I'm just not wired for it.

JohnH, it's cool; I appreciate your ideas.

I've set a few boundaries to protect my self-respect, and those actions were undoormatty enough...

I don't believe that my actions have been ineffective. Events have not had a chance to run their course, and unfortunately the timing of the sparrow's effort to D makes it unlikely that they will before it's all over. Honestly, I don't think there was anything I could have done better.

Honestly, I have to say something else about these plans. I don't think they work as well as advertised in many situations. I think they work better for betrayed wives. Everything I've seen since I've been on MB shows me that WWs behave differently from WHs in a rather consistent way. And I don't think the Harleys or anybody else has figured out the best way to handle the difference.

The one thing I'll wonder after all this is what would have happened if I had been more obviously indignant about what has been done to me.

And I'll wonder if I should have confronted OM early on. I have still never seen him. I don't know what he looks like.

Oh, well. I'm probably going to lose the fight to save my M, but I'll win the fight to preserve my integrity and become a better man after it's all over. That'll have to be good enough.

GC

Actually, our MC, who worked with Harley for 8 years, wrote a book that DOES deal with the differences between women's affairs and men's affairs, among other things. It's called "The State of Affairs", by Mulliken, and it is really quite good, IMO. He also deals with some different tacks to take in affair recovery depending on your personality and the personality of your spouse. He essentialy says pleasers need to develop some assertiveness, and controllers need to develop some sensitivity and let go more. I find that to fit right in with Michele Weiner-Davis's admonition to do something different, if what you are doing is not working. Even better, try doing something the opposite of what you would "normally" do in a given situation. If you normally pursue, withdraw, if you normally withdraw, pursue, etc.

M W-D also has a great suggestion that I am thinking of adding to my signatue line, if I find a pithy way to say it. The gist of it is: "Think of the times when things go better (or less bad, if that is the best you can do) between you. Think about what you were doing right before those occasions, or during those occasions. Do more of that, and see what happens."

john:

Good suggestions.

I do believe I've also been a doormat at various times for far 2long. For sure that's been true.

I agree with your last comment about figuring out what you did before a period of time when things were going right, and do that again.

Our current "goodness", such as it is, came after some truly deep conversations about what hurts both of us. We pulled the gloves off, 2, and let the other spew if they felt they needed 2. But that was just a 2ple of days before a long drive home, and on the long drive home, we were each letting our imaginations run amok, which wasn't positive.

I had been thinking that we sort of backslid since then in2 stuckness, but I don't think so anymore. I think we're SLOWLY opening up again 2 one another, and closeness is also SLOWLY re2rning. While we were out of town, my W said that she wasn't comfortable having SF for now, so we haven't in about a month now. I miss it and I don't. I miss it because... ...well, you know. I don't because I miss the emotional intimacy more and because I always ranked EI higher than SF anyway, but my W never believed that. Now I get the oppor2nity 2 show her.

We have 2 start over again anyway, since our M was broken so long ago. I'm going 2 do my best 2 be patient and enjoy THIS journey.

Because our M is so long, 28.5 yrs, and because the A was primarily an EA with an OM out of state (and lasted 12 years) I think it's important for me 2 remain patient (but vigilant). I need 2 be vigilant more that I don't become a doormat ever again in the process of being patient. I think I can do that, though. And I do think it's worth it, though it doesn't always seem so.

-ol' 2long