Double post - sorry.

<small>[ September 06, 2004, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

I have just read this thread for the first time and I feel this thread will be incomplete if I don’t add the following I’ve posted from a book a few months ago… Those who are interested, can read the whole thread I’ve started on the topic of forgiveness on this link:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want to give the following extraction from the book “Toxic parents” written by the therapist, Dr. Susan Forward. This book was written for people who have survived all forms of childhood abuse, but I think the following on forgiveness can be applicable on all people/situations and infidelity as well. I have change some words e.g. “parent” to “someone” or “parents” to “people” to make it more general and applicable for all people and situations:

THE TRAP OF FORGIVENESS

Most of us have been led to believe that forgiveness is the first step toward healing. There are many experts in the various help professions who sincerely believe that forgiveness is not only the first step but often the only step necessary for inner peace. I disagree completely.

I took a long, hard look at the concept of forgiveness. I began to wonder if it could actually impede progress rather than enhance it.

I came to realize that there are two facets to forgiveness: giving up the need for revenge, and absolving the guilty party of responsibility. I didn’t have much trouble accepting the idea that people have to let go for the need to get even. Revenge is a very normal but negative motivation. It bogs you down in obsessive fantasies about striking back to get satisfaction; it creates a lot of frustration and unhappiness; it works against your emotional well-being. Letting go of your need for revenge is difficult, but it is clearly a healthy step.

But the other facet of forgiveness was not as clear-cut. I felt there was something wrong with unquestioningly absolving someone of this rightful responsibility. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that this absolution was really another form of denial: “If I forgive you, we can pretend that what happened wasn’t so terrible.” I came to realize that this aspect of forgiveness was actually preventing a lot of people from getting on with their lives.

One of the most dangerous things about forgiveness is that it undercuts your ability to let go of your pent-up emotions. How can you acknowledge your anger against someone whom you’ve already forgiven? Responsibility can go only one of two places: outward, onto the people who have hurt you, or inward, into yourself. Someone’s got to be responsible.

I also noticed that many clients rushed to forgiveness to avoid much of the painful work of therapy. They believed that by forgiving they could find a shortcut to feeling better. A handful of them “forgave,”, left therapy, and wound up sinking even deeper into depression or anxiety.

Several of these clients clung to their fantasies: “All I have to do is forgive and I will be healed, I will have wonderful mental health, everybody is going to love everybody, we’ll hug a lot, and we’ll finally be happy.” Clients all too often discovered that the empty promise of forgiveness had merely set them up for bitter disappointment. Some of them experienced a rush of well-being, but it didn’t last because nothing had really changed in the way they felt in their family interactions.

People can forgive, but they should do it at the conclusion – not at the beginning – of their emotional housecleaning. People need to get angry about what happened to them. They need to grieve over what happened. They need to stop diminishing or discounting the damage that was done to them. Too often, “forgive and “forget” means “pretend it didn’t happen.”

I also believe that forgiveness is appropriate only when people to do something to earn it. People need to acknowledge what happened, take responsibility and show a willingness to make amends. If you unilaterally absolve someone who continues to treat you badly, who deny much of your reality and feelings, and who continue to project blame onto you, you may seriously impede the emotional work you need to do.

At this point, you may be wondering, understandably, if you will remain bitter and angry for the rest of your life. In fact, quite the opposite is true. What I have seen over the years is that emotional and mental peace comes as a result of releasing yourself from someone’s control. And that release can come only after you’ve worked through your intense feelings of outrage and grief and after you’ve put the responsibility where it belongs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Fraggles said "I choose to stay (or let him stay ) because I love him & I want my M to work. I have to choose to forgive him EVERY time I think about the affair. Most times I do, sometimes I still get stuck, but I always come back around to - this is what I choose...to stay, to forgive, to love."


Forgiveness and even trust is a choice, one that we as being imperfect spiritually must choose to do over and over again, until it no longer is a conscious choice but a truth. Only then can we have complete recovery in our relationsips, but it takes time, and courage, and faith that even if we are hurt again, and once again must start the process of forgiveness and trust all over again, we can...because we love. And this is the beauty of love, and where our strength lies if we choose it to be so.

I also believe that we have to give up our egos in order to achieve this state of forgiveness. We must get past the "how could you do this to me, ME". This is where I got stuck, with my ego, thinking I was too good to ever be betrayed. But now I have accepted that and am moving on to the forgiveness part, even though he is gone, I have to be able to resolve it in my heart in order to be at peace again.

But as Fraggles said, everytime I think of it, I have to choose to forgive all over again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wrote a long rambling reply then deleted it. The prospect of total forgiveness scares me. Total forgiveness of WW feels like I am saying " Well, it was OK to put a hand grenade in my heart and pull the pin. Here's my heart and my trust once more,do it again. "

The physical unity with another man than myself breaks my heart and spirit and I do not know if I can overcome that. God will need to be generous in blessing if I am to recover from that.

Then the lies, the deliberate hurt in the fog, the hurt of the kids.....so hard to forgive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, herein lies the problem that you, me, and most others "struggle with" as they are simultaneously dealing with the torrent of emotions flooding through them. So why don't we spend a little time on this topic (yes, I think it is THE most important of all the topics).

Unlike Anyname, you are a believer. You DO believe in God's existance and in His only begotten son Jesus Christ. You believe in the triune nature of God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. BUT....but you are human, not God yourself. You have all the emotions that God created you with. As with most things, there is the potential for both "positive and negative" in how we behave, how we allow ourselves to be "controlled" by, or as a result of, those emotions. We have "free will." Another of those "two edged sword" types of things. We can CHOOSE. No one, including God, has said that all of these choices will be easy. In fact, we are told that we WILL be faced with many trials and temptations during our lives. It is HOW we choose to respond to them that is important and that is a "barometer" of our own faith and trust in God.

"The prospect of total forgiveness scares me. Total forgiveness of WW feels like I am saying " Well, it was OK to put a hand grenade in my heart and pull the pin. Here's my heart and my trust once more,do it again."

Why do you think that God the Son became incarnate? Why did He become FULLY man as well as being fully God? Yes, a major part of this was to fulfill prophecy because God is faithful to all of His promises.

But there is another aspect to this that you might want to consider. Because Jesus was fully man, He experienced first hand all of the emotions to which you are referring. He experienced, if you will, human weakness as only we humans, created in God's image, can. It was SO overwhelming, and the agony so intense, that Jesus asked the Father to "take it away," to not require that He undergo the final culmination of all the agony in His death on the cross. Yet, from the depths of His soul, from the torment of His human emotions, Jesus CHOSE. He chose God and God's will first....as the primary choice. "If it is possible, let this cup pass from me. But your will be done, not mine," to paraphrase Christ. Jesus CHOSE us. Jesus chose His love for us, unworthy and adulterous as we were, to "do the impossible." Jesus chose to love us "even unto death." Only He had the power to forgive us. Only He had the love TO forgive us. Only He had the love to restore us. ALL that He has asked in return is that we choose to accept His sacrifice and to be His loving and spotless bride, adorned in the new clothing He has provided for us.

Philippians 4:13: "I can do all things through him (Christ) who strengthens me."

We don't do this under our own power. Our power is finite and limited. We "tap into" God's unlimited power by CHOICE. By believing and accepting HIS promise to us. "Yay, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. ....Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever." God uses ALL the events in our lives to work good in the lives of those who trust Him.

Christians focus, or should focus, on the future. Not the "here and now." We DEAL with the "here and now," but we are "forward looking" not "backward looking." We LEARN from our mistakes and seek to not repeat them in the future. We "bridle" our emotions and control them, not the other way around. We KNOW that God is in control of the future and that He has given us responsibility for only TODAY.

Jesus Christ KNOWS all of our pain and struggle. We HAVE a faithful high priest, sitting at the Father's right hand, interceding for us who UNDERSTANDS firsthand what we are feeling and the schemes of the "enemy."

We are NOT perfect. That is why we are given God's promise that if we repent and confess our sins, HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. NOT because we merit it or have earned it, but because Christ WAS our sin and His blood has earned it for us through His faithful surrender to the Father's will.

The problem you are struggling with is not one of "capacity." You HAVE the capacity to forgive, totally. God the Holy Spirit indwells you and makes that available to you. The problem you are struggling with is one of "will." It is NOT "cannot," it is "will not." It is a choice. You are allowing, as we all have, to allow fear and doubt to make you question God. It is a fear of falling. You are "afraid" to let go of your control, your reins, and let God control it. You are afraid that God is not "capable" or "strong enough" or "good enough" to control these "raging horses" you feel. "Come, you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Trust IS choosing to let yourself be vulnerable. Trust is choosing to accept that the object of your trust IS faithful and IS capable and DOES have the power to DO what HE has promised upon Himself that He will DO. Trust is turning over the fears of an unknown future to one who knows the future and saying, in effect, "Give us this day our daily bread". Not tomorrow's bread, or next year's bread, but TODAY's only.

An American President once said that "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." There is much truth in that statement. A certain Winston Churchill once said, "we will NEVER surrender!" In the face of the darkest of times...we CHOOSE. WHAT and HOW we choose is up to us, but the choice is DEFINING.

Bob, don't put the "cart before the horse." Forgiveness comes AFTER repentance. Without repentance there can be no forgiveness. Without repentance there can only be love and patience and a "posture of forgiveness" whereby you stand ready to forgive "as God has forgiven me."

God bless.

::::That was a good post, Frags! Being petrified of algebra myself, I thought that was a great analogy.

Yes, I liked Fraggles thoughts too, cept, I doubt I could learn the formulas if my life depended on it. <shudder at the thought of math>


:::::Forgiveness is an internal shift, a result of understanding that the person who has wronged us did not have evil motives towards us, but instead simply, inexplicably failed.

OK, I agree that forgiveness is an internal shift.

::::There is a big difference between thinking that a person's actions were meant to purposefully hurt us when in fact the hurt was a natural byproduct of foolish and selfish behaviour.

I have a problem with the concept that WSs thought their Ss were protected from harm by virtue of their ignorance of the situation. We can all think like that and follow thru on hurtful, uncaring behavior, should we choose. The reason why WSs are able to use the above reasoning, is because the majority don't give themselves permission to think like that. This creates a safe environment in M. However some capitalize on the goodness of the majority and misuse the atmosphere of trust - knowing that misuse is not expected by their particular S.


It's not rocket science to know that your S is going to be badly damaged by your unfaithfulness - and it's not rocket science to consider the possibility that you will be caught out. I am aggrieved that I have to go thru a great deal of pain, for something my H decided to put to the test. It's not that he wanted me to go thru pain. Rather he wanted to experience pleasure so he chose to expose me to the possiblity of pain. I'm angry that he chose not to think - because he knew that if he thought, he wouldn't be able to do it. He chose what he wanted to think. So, in effect he chose the potential to harm (the innocent) in pursuit of pleasure. I consider that sinister behavior.

::::What it does mean is that we view the person who has hurt us in a new light, one that is not based on blame or judgement alone. Forgiveness allows us to have compassion toward the one who has wronged us.

Compassion? That he wanted a pretty young virginal girl for a sex toy? I give compassion for those who deserve it.

:::It is a task made much easier if the person who hurt us is remorseful. Their dissapointment in themselves as well as their dismay at causing pain to us can be met either by refusal to acknowledge their pain and focus on exclusively on our own, or by forgiving them.

One could argue that it's easy to be remorseful after you get caught doing wrong. I want my H to be disappointed in himself. He should be disappointed in himself. He's not some pea-brained idiot. He's a highly educated, highly privileged man with plenty of insight into human suffering (the A started a couple of days after returning from a poverty stricken, aids ridden African country, where he visited the desperately poor). He's always going on about matters of social injustice. There was social injustice and exploitation - and I, like many people, baulk at hypocrisy. Partly I'm angry about what he did to me and partly about what he did to my belief in him.


:::Forgiving someone does not mean we excuse their behaviour but rather that we recognise that they made a mistake. With forgiveness, we become willing to move forward in the relationship without eternally holding their failures over their heads.

It's a tad more complicated than making a mistake. Choosing to advantage yourself at the cost of another's happiness/stability is a little more than a mistake. There are implications about this kind of behavior that have frightened me.


:::Forgiveness and personal recovery do go hand in hand. When we feel that we have not been looked out for, not looked after as we expected, our natural reaction is to look out for ourselves. After all, the person whom we trusted let us down and now who is going to watch out for us?

Good point.

:::Unfortunately it becomes a trap if we continue to self-protect to the point where we cannot move forward, thereby unintentionaly putting our own recovery (and our marital recovery) at risk.

It's a basic instinct. My earliest memory is of seeing my feet running on linoleum after my mother when I was hospitalized as a 3yr old (I escaped from the cot to scream down the corridors after her). The sight of that hospital today still causes a feeling of unease in me. Yes, I agree that I have lost the feeling of security I once enjoyed. It has caused me a great deal of anxiety. Anxiety is a particular problem of mine.

I know, the security was probably an illusion. But it was an illusion that helped me thru life. I believed that we had a good thing going. He always used to say how much he loved his life. He was always so happy, every morning bouncing out of the shower and leaping onto the bed like a cave man, with a grin from ear to ear. (can you imagine how irrepressible he was?) Then, a chance temptation, and he thought he could add some wrongness to his life and continue to be happy. Guess he didn't have his b*ll sh*t detector turned on that day.


::::It is hard work to get to the point where we can be strong enough within ourselves to extend mercy to someone who has hurt us. It's an ongoing process but a decision must be made at some point whether we will or will not forgive.

I disagree with you. Must, must, must. This is not necessarily true. Sometimes things just happen. They evolve. Can you be absolutely certain that I will not evolve into a state of being that imitates forgiveness? I think people can reach that state of being for different reasons and along different paths, with incentives that are real to them.

For me personally? The likely outcome will be that I will decide that I like and perhaps love my H enough to live with what he did.

He fell over a bench the other day when he was looking back at me. We'd just done our laps in the pool and he usually watches me walk off to the ladies' change rooms. My immediate reaction was distress at seeing him stumble. This might not sound much to you but I've felt very cold to the world this last year or so. Absolutely no enthusiasm about living or anyone or anything in it (with the exception of my son and daughter). It felt good to feel something. Like I've been paralysed and suddenly I can move a little finger. I think it's important to focus on what we have achieved, rather than what we haven't achieved??


:::BTW, I am writing this as a past victim of abuse,

I'm sorry to hear that.


:::: Forgiveness in the end is not really for the other person, it i If we harbor bitterness and anger towards those who have harmed us, we will never have peace of mind, never have joy.

Do you really believe we forgive for ourselves? We usually find it easy to do things for ourselves!


::::::::::Some things can never be rectified, people die before they can apologize or we lose touch, whatever.

My brother and I are a classic case. Inseparable during our childhood and teenage years and now won't have my name mentioned. (he turned me in to the elders for the 'sin' of no longer believing what the cult taught. That was 25 yrs ago. I've forgiven him in the last few years, mostly because I no longer care. It's the law of diminishing returns.


::::: There are some here on this board who know of my struggles and know that when I speak of the neccesity of forgiveness, I am not speaking blithely.

I have sympathy for other WSs. I just don't have much for my own WS. But maybe that's more to do with the fact that other WSs didn't harm me personally.

::::To step down from whatever rightful position we feel we have as someone else's accuser and judge is a such difficult thing but in the hope of recovery must be done.

To find your way back up from the free fall you took when your world fell apart and be able to treat the person who caused you terrible harm with unconditional love is a very difficult thing.

:::: to surrender that self we are so desperate to protect, the self that was wronged. KB

Yes, you are right. There is vulnerability with or without forgiveness. I think a lot of the problem is rooted in vulnerability.

I had a big long response to this post this morning, but then I lost electricity for the day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I've thought about this a lot. I had thought that I really wholly forgave my husband for his past actions, and continue to forgive him for his current ones.

but I'm not so sure that's correct.

There is a big difference between compassion&empathy and forgiveness. I have compassion and empathy for my husband. I can see a lot of where he's coming from. But it's the things that I CAN'T understand that I have a hard time forgiving. I could forgive his affair. I could forgive his dating others right now.

What I'm having a hard time forgiving is that he made a promise to me when we got married. He broke that promise and will not even TRY to keep it while there's still a chance. This is what is hard for me to forgive.

I am reading a good book on forgiveness.
Forgvie For Good by Dr. Fred Luskin.
It has very practical techniques and advice!

Frags, I've heard about that one, it sounds good. Another I'd like to take a look at is Janis Spring's book, How Can I Forgive You? I wonder how well they work together. I'm somewhat of a logical problem solver type so any and all info is welcome to help me to understand something from all angles.

Speaking of angles, AnyName I do appreciate yours. I'm afraid I may have worded something unclearly:

**************
KB: There is a big difference between thinking that a person's actions were meant to purposefully hurt us when in fact the hurt was a natural byproduct of foolish and selfish behaviour.
**************

I didn't mean to imply that the WS's hurtful actions were inadvertent. I think at the time I was thinking of the extreme selfishness of a WS and how that self centeredness affects the BS. I agree it's sinister! It is an extreme failing, no doubt.

As far as compassion, the compassion is directed toward the repentant spouse but NOT towards the actions they took. Your H was a scoundrel and DESERVES to be in the doghouse. However, you do hold the keys and the doghouse is not the best place to restore a formerly happy marriage such as yours. He IS repentent? This is where grace, mercy and forgiveness on your part comes in.

I know you are not really sure of what you want to do about the marriage, I can understand that.

AN, I need to throw something difficult out for your consideration. Having been through the experience of leaving a cult myself, I know firsthand how frightening, confusing and traumatic it can be. You and your H took a brave stand together and left behind both friends AND family. You went on to forge a happy life together and TOGETHER validated your choice to leave by moving ahead to live a good life. You were as one flesh in this, truly.

His betrayal can only be more devastating to you in view of your experience, in my book. Where it used to be US against the world, now you must feel it is just YOU. {{{Anyname}}} Not many have undergone this type of experience, it is one of the things I wanted to talk about off the public board.

You've been through SO much AN, you have had some heavy burdens. I *think* I understand your position but I also want to nudge you along for your own health and happiness. (Regardless of the decision you make about your marriage.)

I was encouraged to read of your concern for your H when he fell. It is a process, AN and the dialog may be a small part of that. Would you consider talking offline? KB

KB,

I have read both books.

There are some difference of opinions between authors in terms of the hows & whys of forgiveness.

I like J. Spring's view better, but Forgive for Good has great practical techniques to apply everyday.

Frags

Lol Anyname, we both must be getting Alzheimers (sp?)I had to wrack my brains this morning to find it (hidden on pg 5). This is the one? KB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by knewbetter:
This is such an important topic and as Noodle puts it a "chewy one!" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excuse me but I've got some of this forgiveness stuff stuck between my teeth. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

:::I know firsthand how frightening, confusing and traumatic it can be. You and your H took a brave stand together and left behind both friends AND family. You went on to forge a happy life together and TOGETHER validated your choice to leave by moving ahead to live a good life. You were as one flesh in this, truly.

::::His betrayal can only be more devastating to you in view of your experience, in my book. Where it used to be US against the world

Hi KB, I forgot to address you in my previous response huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> The above is certainly one of the important aspect for me. From the point of view that they, the cult, sat in judgement of us. We even attended a church trial with 3 elders deciding the outcome and three accusors came forward in front of us to make claims about our apostate ways. My brother, whom I had idolised as a child and teenager, was the major accusor. He and his wife, 'the poison dwarf', I have since affectionately named her, went all out to have us disfellowshipped, because they knew we would no longer be members of the family. They got their way. It was devestating to me and to my mother and father. NC was followed strictly by church elders. My parents were constantly harrassed and threatened with excommunication themselves if they continued to associate with me. (there were three other siblings who would be lost to them if they didn't comply with the church).

If my 3 siblings knew what my H had done, they woudn't stop laughing for six months. They hated how well we'd made a go of our lives after we were left with no friends or family. We worked like mad to make up financially for the years we'd lost to the church. H studied and I did all the kids stuff and was diligent managing the money. We were a brilliant team and step by step we established ourselves financially and with new friends. In spite of whatever MB claims about M's, ours had been very close and very happy. We rarely spoke crossly to each other, and mostly joked about everthing. Apart from H's decision to return to asia for work. At the time, there didn't seem much choice but to do it as we did, but looking back I realise it was an invitation to disaster.

::: one of the things I wanted to talk about off the public board.

Off the board is good for me. Do you have an email address I can contact you on? I don't want to put the family email on here. There is another aspect that I will raise with you, if you feel up to listening.

AN

Oh Anyname, you have no idea how sad I am reading this. First I felt ANGER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> but now I'm just sort of sitting here, dazed.

Give me the heads up that you got the addy so I can edit, preferably tonite if you can. I've promised the kids I'd watch Bourne Identity with them so I'll check this later. {{{AN}}}

<small>[ September 12, 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: knewbetter ]</small>

Hi KB, Hey, no problem. No hurry. It's Sunday nite here and H wants the computer soon. I will send a test message only tonight. Give me time to write a bit more. Yeah, the Witness stuff was horrendous. You ain't heard the half of it. I believe it killed my mother. She was diagnosed with breast cancer about 10 yrs after this lunacy begun. Do you know how long a breast cancer is growing by the time it's palpable? 8 - 10 yrs. It was a big tumor by the time she felt it. I always felt it was the grief of what the church did that caused her to succumb to breast cancer. Then the long fight to survive that, which she lost last year. Yeah, I'm pretty emotional about my life a lot of the time.

Will talk more to you privately.

AN