Hello Board....I haven't posted in a couple of days but I've been "lurking" when I can. I've also been "fishing" as suggested by so many.

I'm still not at "Plan B crunch time". WW is still here however she has paid for the apartment, taken little things over there and is probably there right now (carpet isn't clean enough) although she tells me she's working a little late.

Her's my dilemma. WW leaves tomorrow for the east coast for a marathon (planned a long time back). Four days gone. I think WW plans on "moving out" when she returns. "Moving out" is such a relative statement. The apartment is 1.5 miles away from our house. I have to pass it everyday to go to work, gym, etc. WW has expressed (and I haven't denied her) that she'll probably be here more than there. Plans on being here in the mornings to take DD to school and basically WW wants to come/go at will.

Early on (during the post exposure raging) and WW's subsequent "not sure if I want to stay or go", I Plan A'd, told her she didn't have to go, etc. Basically all the info I posted before until I was educated to go "fishing".

Well I'm certainly "fishing". I'm still Plan Aing extremely well, conversations all seem to be pleasant (from WW as well), WW talks of future plans, repeatedly says "I DON'T EXPECT TO BE GONE MORE THAN A MONTH". Deep down, I think WW (and myself) are playing with each other. Things have been pleasant. Everyday is getting better but she still (albeit very, very slowly) moves in the direction of moving out.

I read other posts which got me thinking. "Am I/we thriving off of the new relationship we have where I'm not LBing and WW isn't blatantly LBing and where the abnormal/insane is starting to become normal/sane?" I'm pretty much lost with that one.

My thoughts are more along the lines of "move out already so you can see that you really want to be here as a family". I don't want her to go but if she decides to....

I can't confirm/deny whether or not WW is still in contact. Her cellphone doesn't reflect it, she actually turns it off now. WW doesn't look at it every 12 seconds as if a call came in. But I don't know about work calls. The last 5 days, I know physically where she's been but I'm uncertain as to NC. WW did ante up the statement "I haven't seen or spoken with OM", "Not even thinking about it", "Just not sure what I want and want some time to figure myself out".

I keep thinking of Plan B. I've taken over the finances, we POJA'd what bills I would take and which she would take. WW still hasn't opened her own account yet - trying to figure that one out. Tonight I will ask for the checkbook (already have ATM) from our joint accounts. All POJA'd and I can see reaction when I bring up discussed boundaries. Confusion, pain, etc. - not anger from WW. I think reality is hitting her.

Enough babble. If WW moves out Tuesday should I continue to Plan A until I can't stand it anymore (MB ideaology) or should I Plan A a couple of weeks and hit her with Plan B. I'm trying to exercise patience but I'm waffling because of how far (in the positive) this has come over the last two weeks.......

As always....God Bless and Thanks......LS

lostsailor - the wild card here is whether there is still contact. Have you communicated with OM's Mommy?

Once again, I'm not certain of the use of Plan B if the affair is over. But I'll bet it isn't, or it isn't for her (similar to Bob Pure's wife). In that case, Plan B seems prudent as soon as she moves out.

One way to look at it is that Plan B is really for your protection. No matter the status of the affair, she has not yet commited to the marriage, so your bank is still being drawn down. Plan B isolates you from (much of the) continued pain to preserve the balance. Also, some advocate that Tough Love is effective and Plan B is a way to give a good does of it.

I believe I've recommended before, but you may not have responded, to start counseling with Steve H.

WAT

Thanks WAT....I've contacted Steve and my counseling is pending.....

Contact. Well I'm not so sure anymore. Haven't been able to prove it but found a contract for a phone in new apartment. Something WW said she wasn't going to get. I'm sure WW knows that I can check her cell phone records online. Just found that about four minutes ago and as you've stated - my bank was just drawn down again.

Tonight during what I perceived as a normal conversation, WW talking about the future again - plans for Brownie meetings, Christmas back home, etc. I asked WW when she was moving out. I didn't get an answer but WW eluded to after this weekend. Conversation continued and I'm trying to set boundaries without LBing. Now that is hard. I told her that I'm not sure if her coming/going at will or coming home and staying until DD went to sleep and then left would work. I told her we'd see how things progressed. In my mind, I'm thinking Plan B. I also backtracked a little (when we were hugging in the kitchen) that I want her to be able to recommit to our M and that I'm not sure how long I can continue to be a yo-yo in this. I'm a bit pissed that I said that because I don't want to tip my hand. WW is very saavy although I can see her weakening under Plan A.

I haven't set a deadline to begin Plan B but I'm sure I need to. Either way, I'll be in contact with Steve H very soon. Hopefully tomorrow if not Friday.

Like others here, there are moments of joy followed by moments of sadness. I hate the moments when I think that this isn't worth it. I know it is but I'm also trying to fight the "patience" bug - I want her to get off the fence, move out, figure out what she wants. Right now I'm fuming (because of the phone deal) but all day has been pretty good. I need to control my feelings better and remember where I'm at in the process.

Thanks again and I'm working towards C with Steve H.......LS

One question.....Should I confront WW about the phone set-up or let it ride? Trying to be honest all the time but not receiving any back. Guess I shouldn't expect honesty considering, huh?.......LS

I would let it ride but keep it in your hip pocket.

This IS an indicator that her intention is to continue the affair. Why keep a phone secret from you?

IF she moves the fact that she has a phone is bound to come out. You ARE gonna check out the apartment before you allow your daughter over there, right?

When the phone is finally revealed, you can judge then whether you should "call" her on it (pun intended). If you happen to discover the phone number, and you haven't yet gone to Plan B, you can simply call her up on it for any routine conversation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm glad to hear you will be working with Steve. Please report on your progress with him - ESPECIALLY if his guidance differs from what you've received here. This is a continuous learning process.

WAT

WAT and others...You bring up another good point (checking out the apartment PRIOR to letting DD over there).

Other than the initial "security check" a couple of weeks ago, I haven't been over there. There are issues that WW has brought up but I have not offered to assist in any manner whatsoever.

My thinking is that if WW wants the apartment, she'll have to either fix the things or have them fixed (on her dime).

Considering I'm Plan Aing, does this make sense? WW hasn't particularly asked me to do anything as sometimes I can't hide the hurt on my face when she brings it up. I just sorta nod or smile but I don't acknowledge or provide feedback. I feel that I would be enabling if I fixed the issues. Any thoughts?

As a sidenote, WW was dressed differently this morning. More like a "date" than "work". I commented how nice she looked and all the while thinking "she's planning a lunchtime or late afternoon meeting with OM". I didn't give my thoughts away but I did suggest we (DD and I) meet her at 3:00 to take care of some shopping issues. My way of attempting to intervene with any plans she may have. Positive results and my thinking is the last portion of ARK's posting - essentially, don't make it easy on them meeting. Don't be a babysitter while they go out with OM.

Thanks and God Bless......LS

You may hear differing arguments over whether you should help her "fix" things in the apartment.

For the record, I helped my XW to some extent - even took her a framed photograph to hang. (Of course, it WAS a really nice shot of an azalea bloom in the yard at our prior residence - a little reminder.)

Anyway, I believe you have a no-brainer parental interest to assure the apartment is safe for your daughter. To this end, you should offer to fix things that relate more directly to your daughter. Will she have a bedroom there?

WAT

My DD will not have a room over there. Actually, WW thinks that this will be something DD doesn't find out about. I've already told WW that honesty is one of my "renewed" (albeit, never really left) traits and that when the questions come from DD, I'm not going to lie.

I read your post before running out to have lunch with WW. She's still here and I'm still Plan Aing. Taking every opportunity to show her what she'll be missing. I did tell her that I would help her with things in the apartment if she needed it. I didn't suggest anything, just wanted her to know that I'll help if she needed. Knowing that ever since she leased this place, got out of the lease, got back into the lease - my expressions never changed. I couldn't hide the hurt associated, not with words just what I figure is facial expressions.

When discussing my assistance, I asked if she thinks DD would be over there (I was working the safety/security issue). WW said "I don't plan on being there that long". My WW is very savvy. I'm not sure if she's thinking she's saying things to ease my pain. Either way, I counsel tomorrow morning with Steve H. I look forward to his insight and planning.

Thanks WAT for responding and if anyone has other suggestions, please toss them my way. I feel I've come a great distance in a little amount of time and MB'rs cleared my fog and created a course to steer......LS

Sounds like you are doing quite well. Counseling with Steve will be good for you.

I suspect there is still contact. But don't know for sure. If your wife was in withdrawal, she would be moping around.

Believer.....I "believe" the same. Although I didn't see "them" together tonight, WW went to her apartment (which she still hasn't actually slept in) to do some "cleaning". After my DD and I had dinner and the timeline WW had expressed (30-45 minutes and I'll be back), I decided to "get some ice cream". I figured I'd just check. Drove by the apartment, no car. Called her cell and happily WW states she's heading to the department store to return some items. Quickly I said "great, we're almost there too". Stumped WW because all of the sudden "Where are you? I'm on such and such road. Decided to take the back way". Well, such and such road happens to be the one OM and his mother live. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I invited her for ice cream and then ended the conversation. I was about the LB all over the place. I'm finding that this is the hardest for me to do. Knowing that WW is still in contact, WW tossing foggy lies our way and all the while, WW is still here. WW has been very receptive to my Plan A. At times, you'd think there wasn't even an A happening. All part of the plan! It seems every hour is a different emotion for her. Confused about what to do; excited about the future and discussing "our" plans for the future; sad about moving out; etc.

I want to add one more. Today I was with WW and DD and she got a phone call. It was one of her friends who used to work with her and keeps in contact with work folks.

I overheard the following "have you heard the latest rumor about you? They say you are moving out. Are you?" WW said "no, that's not true" and started to say "where did you hear that from?". Her friend then said "I remember the rumor about you and one of the assistants (OM)". Quickly WW cut the conversation saying bad connection. I think WW knew I could here the conversation. Tonight I checked her cell. She called the friend back while she was at her "apartment".

I added the last paragraph in there because I'm still wondering about workplace exposure. I haven't exposed to friends yet but it looks like I may call this other friend (she's WW's friend but we've all known each other for years). The issue I have confirming the rumor is that it will become workplace exposure. Something I've been warned should be the last resort.

Any comments?

That's one of the questions for Steve H. in the morning. I'll also post his response......

Thanks and God Bless......LS

If you're acquainted with the rumor friend, I suggest you DO call her and confirm the rumor - this is more "friend" exposure than workplace exposure, but the goal and potential effect is the same. But do it in a Plan A way - you are trying real hard to keep your family together and tell the truth - she hasn't left yet. You're trying your darndest to keep her home.

Everything you describe of her behavior is textbook. Classic, classic affair stuff.

Be prepared to describe to Steve your understanding of ENs and your ID of any you weren't meeting. He will quiz you to gauge your understanding of the MB principles. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WAT

Hello Board.....I finally counseled with Steve H on Friday. What a revelation! In just one session, I learned a great deal of what was going on and some of the analogies were right on track. WAT....You were right. SH drilled me on the MB principles and I think I passed the test. Probably because of all the teachings of the "experienced ones" not too mention lurking/reading all over this board.

WW is in Virginia running the marathon. She has called me 11 times since she left. One conversation was about how this would have been a great "get away" vacation for all of US. Talked about how great it would be for me, WW & DD to ride bikes on the boardwalk, etc. This somewhat showed me Plan A is working.

I think Monday will be another story. Tuesday is the "expected" move out date. WW still hasn't set up her own account. SH even asked me "what does she want?". I couldn't answer because so far, she hasn't taken anything from the house except some dishes and little nitnoid things. Nothing that anyone would notice (except me when I look to use a certain strainer, coffee cup, etc.).

WW and I are getting along and talking more and more. Reading other posts this morning reaffirms my belief that she is not only cake walking but being receptive to me to ease her guilt.

Wontgiveupyet's post on setting boundaries really has me thinking. My WW expects to do the same as her WH. Come/Go at will, be here in a.m. for DD, eat dinner, stay until DD goes to sleep and then go to her apartment. Mixed signals - he**, I'm all over the place in my heart/mind.

I plan on continuing to Plan A for a little longer. I do not plan on being "readily accessible" over the next week or so. I'm going to follow what other MB'rs have suggested - back off a little. I want her to experience the results of HER choices but not quite Plan B.

Does this make sense?

I'm also a little torn between exposing to the friend described before. I've received postings that say "expose when you're still able to Plan A it away" and SH said "he likes to further expose when Plan B hits". I'm setting up another session with SH for next week.

I don't want to screw this next step up. Please, any advice.


Thanks and God Bless.........LS

Your situation sounds quite promising. I would back off when she moves out. You can stay in Plan A, but don't be too available. It seems like she needs a lot of support from you.

WW came home yesterday from the marathon in Virginia. Her final phone call tally to me was 16. I'm taking that as at least a good sign.

Yesterday went okay. Talked alot about her weekend and nothing about her moving out. This morning was more of the same. We are communicating and she is allowing affection (no SF - only SF was once last week after an hour of affection). I'm still very receptive to her current needs but I'm not overly exerting myself. Making myself available at all times waiting for the fog to clear. It hasn't! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I'm trying to be supportive and caring but this indecision hurts quite a bit. I'm cleaning the garage and found the remaining paint when WW/OM painted my DD playroom. Had to stop and come the MB for some relief!

I've set up another session with Steve H on Thursday. WW is supposed to open her own checking account today (three weeks delaying - good thing?) and our conversations last week pointed to her actually staying at her apartment this week. WW is still making future plans for us (family type plans) and I plan on Plan Aing for a week or so.

Here's my thoughts.....Plan A for a week or so (I have a date in mind) because I know how my reactions are everytime I'm with her and something about the apartment comes up. I said that because Plan Aing for longer may end up too long for me emotionally. Don't want to backtrack.

If WW "moves" out, I will go to Plan B. I'm still uncertain about exposing prior to Plan B or during Plan B. My thoughts are to expose to key folks when I go to Plan B (although I'm uncertain (trying to find out) if the A continues). I'm quite certain they are at least in contact via phone and my earlier post in this thread describes how WW wound up on "OM's street".

Any thoughts/comments most certainly appreciated/needed.

Another comment...If/When I do go to Plan B, I intend on hand delivering the letter to OM. Not sure if that's a good thing or not. I've never seen OM and not sure if it'll drive me nuts knowing what he looks like...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Thanks for listening board.........LS

Catching up - was wrestling a tiller all weekend.

Marathon in Va.? A "boardwalk"? My old stomping grounds.

You're doing great. I suggest you take your time and not do anything that you doubt until you get a chance to bounce it off Steve. Time is on your side. But your basic plan makes sense - Plan B when she REALLY leaves.

About the exposure, who's left? Maybe I'm confusing you with another guy, but I thought this was done. My oldstimers disease again.

WAT

WAT....Yeah, Virginia Beach, VA. My old stomping grounds as well. First three months in the Navy was spent over there. I don't miss the humidity!!!

The only one I've exposed to was OM's mother. That started the ball rolling and resulted in OM calling it off. I think WW is pursuing OM. Can't confirm/deny it although I'm trying to.

The phone call last week regarding the "rumor" that's going around about my WW at work. A friend called and I overheard the phone call before WW quickly cut it off and called her back once WW was away from our house.

I guess my concern is the exposure at work. Considering how effective Plan A has been thus far, I don't want to ruin her reputation (albeit, I would rather have her quit the job but after WW has worked for the company 25 years - that'll be a challenge). Maybe a transfer to the East Coast - hmmmm. Of course that option is two years away.

My "fear" is that if WW isn't continuing the A and I expose then I'm creating more hurt for no reason.

I will tell ya. My mind tells me to expose the minute WW "moves out". I guess my heart jumps up and holds me back out of concern for WW's well-being. I don't want to sound like I'm wavering, but I'm wavering.

Another option is radical honesty. I've told WW that I will not lie about what's going on. I've contemplated calling the friend who called last week and say "is there anything you want to ask me?" Then expose.

Another thought is an anonymous letter to WW's work stating what is going on from someones else's perspective. Not radically honest, but I think it would make someone senior to her ask her about it. I would add a little comment....something like "if you would like further information or confirmation, I suggest calling her husband".

Am I way off base? Am I overthinking this?

WAT....Yeah, Virginia Beach, VA. My old stomping grounds as well. First three months in the Navy was spent over there. I don't miss the humidity!!!

The only one I've exposed to was OM's mother. That started the ball rolling and resulted in OM calling it off. I think WW is pursuing OM. Can't confirm/deny it although I'm trying to.

The phone call last week regarding the "rumor" that's going around about my WW at work. A friend called and I overheard the phone call before WW quickly cut it off and called her back once WW was away from our house.

I guess my concern is the exposure at work. Considering how effective Plan A has been thus far, I don't want to ruin her reputation (albeit, I would rather have her quit the job but after WW has worked for the company 25 years - that'll be a challenge). Maybe a transfer to the East Coast - hmmmm. Of course that option is two years away.

My "fear" is that if WW isn't continuing the A and I expose then I'm creating more hurt for no reason.

I will tell ya. My mind tells me to expose the minute WW "moves out". I guess my heart jumps up and holds me back out of concern for WW's well-being. I don't want to sound like I'm wavering, but I'm wavering.

Another option is radical honesty. I've told WW that I will not lie about what's going on. I've contemplated calling the friend who called last week and say "is there anything you want to ask me?" Then expose.

Another thought is an anonymous letter to WW's work stating what is going on from someones else's perspective. Not radically honest, but I think it would make someone senior to her ask her about it. I would add a little comment....something like "if you would like further information or confirmation, I suggest calling her husband".

Am I way off base? Am I overthinking this?

I follow your logic regarding the additional exposure. Many apply the "concentric circle" approach. Widening exposure if an affair continues.

Coordinating exposure to "friend" in conjunction with Plan B makes sense, but why wait? If you get an opportunity to have another conversation with her, tell the whole truth. Plan B means nothing to this person and no matter where you are in your plan, your wife will go ballistic if she finds out. Plan B or not, she'll be madder than a wet hen. Ask Steve, but the sooner the better IF she sits on the fence much longer or backslides.

Any more communication with OM's Mommy?

WAT

WAT....No more conversations with OM's "mommy". I wanted to give it some more time because I don't want to give the impression that I'm "hassling" her.

My thinking is that since OM called it off, that OM's mom may be thinking that "well, my son did his part, can't stop your WW from attempting to continue the affair".

Of course, that's my mind wondering around again also. I had all kinds of thoughts before I called her the first time.

Another backslide earlier in my "training". When WW found out the second time, I told her I wouldn't contact OM's mother again. At that point, I was foolish enough to think that I wouldn't have to since the anger was because OM called it off.

Is that breaking the "radical honesty" and "truthfulness" that I've made certain WW knows that's how I'm operating from now on?

Also, after my last post, WW called. Very jovial conversation. Later in the conversation, I kinda shifted gears. WW mentioned staying at her apartment. I told her "you know, you don't have to leave". WW said, "I know but I think it's something I have to do because I really don't have time to alone to think". This was based on how busy she is at work, how our nights go until WW is tired, etc. Essentially, not finding time alone to think.

Once she told me she's thinking of staying over there tonight, I told her that it hurts me to here about her leaving me. WW still contends she's not leaving me. I felt it was an opportunity to let her know it does hurt because I haven't been able to let her know that verbally - only facial expressions.

I followed with "yeah, I guess it's something YOU have to decide". But then I added "well, I hope you're at least maintaining no contact with him because it only makes it worse". (I said that because earlier WW said she doesn't even SEE the OM).

Her response - NO RESPONSE! I think I just confirmed her contact. Secret phone (which I noticed one of our "spare" phones was missing when cleaning the garage) coupled with no response tells me SHE'S IN CONTACT!!!

My blood pressure jumped 40 points and I was angry. This of course after the phone call. My internal anger and hurt and disappointment hit me all at once.

I don't know if I'm ready for Plan B but my reactions to certain things tell me that I'll probably be better off with Plan B because of this fence sitting. WW has yet to even begin to mention working on our marriage.

At times I feel like I did six weeks ago! I know I need patience and I'm ever so cautious with my responses to WW. I need to keep "fishing".

Just took a shower after cleaning the garage. A thought popped into my mind that I could use some "experienced MBr's" input on.....

Earlier in this thread I said WW thinks she'll sleep at her apartment tonight. This will be the very first time (albeit paying for a week now - including new furniture).

The friend that called last week (conversation I overheard) never calls the house. Always calls WW's cell because she is more of a friend to WW (known each other longer and used to work together).

My thought is that based on WAT's and others projections that regardless of when exposure happens WW will "be madder than a wet hen".

I'm thinking that if WW leaves tonight, I'll just call the friend and let her know that "the rumors are true" and that "I'm not telling her this to hurt WW but I am attempting to save my marriage. Just thought you should know"

Experienced ones.....asking for help again

and if I could, I'd send you all some real carne asada burritos from southern California........

.....LS