</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Blessed TIME:
<strong>

P.S. Your wife had a choice years ago...she could have simply forgiven you. She surely understands your affair, now that she has been fog-bound herself with an OM????? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats eggzackly what I tried to express to her. I told her though this has hurt me its good to know that she can see how this can happen to a fundamentally good person like herself. The problem is she doesn't see her R with OM as an A?!?!? She sees her actions as justified, I'm the one who had an A not her. She has been steadfast in this. She doesnt regret sleeping with OM while M to me, she doesn't feel guilty about proposals of M while still M to me??? It's also possible she does feel it was wrong, but she's still upset that I revealed that me and her were living together to OM. I exposed her to OM that's why he ended their R. This is a dicey sitch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

FM:

"I know I must learn to forgive myself, but how can I?"

I don't know if this will help or not, because I've only just started reading, but Spacecase got the author's permission 2 post Dr. Guy Pettit's ENTIRE book "The Heart of Healing", and some others, on his website at: http://iloveulove.com/forgiveness/hoh1.htm#THE_HEART_OF_HEALING_BOOK_

So far what I've read has been interesting and enlightening. An approach I hadn't been using enough in my own sitch. I wish my W would read it someday.

"Pepper, Orchid, Melody, 2Long, somebody please tell my W that I love her in the right words that I'm too thick headed to say correctly. "

Boy, if I knew what 2 say my problems would have been over long ago! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'm still learning this stuff.

best,
-ol' 2long

OK FM, So now what ?

Whats the next step , back in PLAN B or are ya going another way ?

Unless I missed something , witch I guess I did ,, Why where ya talking to her anyway ???

OK so again whats the PLAN of action ?

I know your in a great deal of pain , but like you've talked about before , you been going at this for some time now .

I get it all , you feel guilty this is all your fault and stuff ,,, BUT we all know its not .

It takes 2 , just becasue you made a mistake , doesn't give her the GREEN to do the same .

2 wrongs do not make a RIGHT !!! (and all that jazz)

I admit I didn't read all responses ,, but some ,, and unless I missed something , I don't recall where you are in the PLAN situation .

OK just wanting to know what you are doing with all this and if you changing PLAN"S.

2Long, Maddy, 3isa, Blessed:
I don't know if I'm coming or going which way is up or if the cow jumped over the moon and ran away with the remote control <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2Long I will definetly read that online book! I could definetly use a perspective on my guilt and how to release myself from this agony. I know that I have changed.

Maddy, yes friend I know I must learn to walk away from my past. I do believe in GOD, I am a christian and becoming more and more spiritual as this goes on, believe me.

Blessd, thank you for reminding me that it's not all my fault. I could hear that a 100 times and it would still be refreshing! The problem is my W was so trusting of me at one time and I know in my heart that I betrayed her trust and shaped the way she sees so many things. We started dating so YOUNG. We were together in high school. My W was my first real GF and I her first real BF. This could have been such a terrifick love story and now look at it, our love has become a bad made for tv movie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

3isa, I was in Plan B. What started us talking was my W visited our home Tuesday and I emailed her to discuss her coming over because it was too painful for me to see her and I needed to retain my boundaries. Once the emailing started things derailed and I began to run my big mouth and ask questions. If you could see these answers, but I will not post them because I so want her to join this forum and not just "lurk". I wish she would comment and share with all of you, but she hasn't taken that step.

As for what plan I will take next? I don't have the foggiest. I never understood the depths of my W's pain until yesterday. I am still whirling from her honesty. I FELT HER CONFUSION, GRIEF AND SUFFERING FOR THE FIRST TIME and then it became a humongous wave washing over me. I cannot get my bearings around a plan. I am thinking Plan A again if she will agree to come home and recommit, but I doubt she will. Now that I understand her pain I realize we have never really dealt with so many issues. We are hurting each other repeatedly and I want it to stop. I hope she is only fogged because she has said somethings such as she doesn't see the ill-effects on her R with OM on our children?? I do! She doesn't see how her not being with me now is badly affecting the children either? I cannot pierce her fog. She will not let me in, the OM is a saint and I am the villian. Of course OW is a B&*$% in her book! To her OM was doing a hero's job of picking up the pieces. To me he was sleeping with my W in my home and even had the audacity to ask my W to marry him. I do not want to argue or drive her from me but she very easily justifies her R with OM and she sees her continued emotional attachment as just a FRIENDLY BOND? How is this just a friendly BOND? You used to sleep with him, he wanted to marry you? How can I be wrong for contacting him and telling him to back off, I was not reconciling just for the kids, I wanted my W back. She doesn't respect me I suppose, I am the bad guy and her M to me at the time of their R was inconsequential to the deep love they shared.

This is painful beyond belief and very unfair.

I am not intending to kick ya when feeling down BUT ,,,GOT to say this ,,,

HOW after having an A of your own and all the crap that goes with it ,,, is this the first time you UNDERSTAND and really see the depth of your W's PAIN >>>>

I am NOT justifing her A at all please understand that ...

But are you shore you defogged after your A ?
Or did you at the time justify it ?

All I am saying and I hope I am getting it out right is ,,, Being that you had an A ,, and then being the BS ,,,, THIS is the forst time you really UNDERSTOOD what your W was feeling ???

Again I am not bashing at all just trying to understand ...

SORRY if this is wong but JMO ,,, You still need to stay focused and make a PLAN ,,, the longer you sit around the more depressed you will become and the more nothing will get done ....

PLAN A ,, well if she comes back OM will still be in her life ,, can you deal with that ?

She may come back for just the kids again for the begining ,, can you live with that ????

Will she go to MC , even if she comes back for the kids its a start .

HAS she said , once and for all she wants a D ???

Is she fogged ? YES
Is she justifing her A ? YES
CAN she ? NO she still made a choice to deal with your A by having one of her own .

DOES she see this yet ? NO

BTN...With that said, then I owe you an apology. I let my emotions take over my fingers sometimes. (Where it was coming from...I am reading more and more members posting things where they write in a self-serving, "holier-than-tho", self-righteous way and it is really getting sickening. To top it off, it just sounded like you were kicking him while he was down. (I know how that feels.) It also stemmed from, it jst seems, everywhere I turn, I feel like my back is a aginst the wall--the other day I decided to start "fighting" back. With that said, it was inappropriate to take it out on you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> So, I apologize.

FM, I only breezed through the second page of your thread and I don't know if it was mentioned, but I remember reading that there was some good stuff (maybe a book?) about the revenge A. Maybe something to read.

I keep saying to myself, "This all sucks. It shouldn't be this hard!" I'm feeling for you, FM. I have that same "Knight in shining armor" complex. And, beating myself up.

I really am discombobulated today, so I gotta end here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Just wanted to let you know there's still a lot of support and friends still here for you.

FM,

Harley (and almost EVERY infidelity specialist) teaches us we are NOT at fault for our spouse's affair. We are accountable for our contribution for the conditions of our marriage that may have led to the affair but NOT their CHOICE to have an affair. I know you've read this a million times so far but you need to accept it.

Ok, so you talked to your W and rehashed the past. Today you are thinking about your conversation. Do you think she isn't? Don't you feel you may have gotten a few points in there? Given her something to think about today?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
Thank you all for your kind words though I feel I don't deserve them.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try this on for size....

DO NOT say things ~about yourself~ that you would not be willing to say about others.

Would you ~ever~ say that another person does not "deserve" kindness because of past mistakes?

I highly doubt you would say this.

Remember, kindness is not "deserved" by anyone much of the time. Kindness is offered like a gift, free of charge.

If you persist on the "I don't deserve your kindness" bit .... I will say this to you ... this is a VERY prideful remark! Yes, PRIDEFUL!.

My personal past erroneous ways are not any less stupid than yours. Different, but equally wrong.

If you "don't deserve" kindness, than neither do I. Neither does 2Long. Neither does Bob Pure, Neither does Believer. Not one single MB member is deserving of kindness.... if you are not.

You cannot place your past sins into a different level of wrongness from mine. If you do, it is an act of pridefulness.

GOT THAT???

You are just like the rest of us. Sinners. Stupid some days. Smart some days.

Your journey begins now.

Accept the kindness of others and be glad, because it humbles you, and because it gives us hope that we too deserve kindness.... no matter what.

Love,

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 3isacrowd:
<strong>
But are you shore you defogged after your A ?
Or did you at the time justify it ?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Defogged? I saw the damage this A did to my life almost 5 years ago. That's when I accepted my responsibility for my A. We have been reconciled for 2 years, living in the same home but I had tried and tried before then to reconcile.

You misunderstood me: until yesterday I was no longer looking at my W's pain from my A. After she emailed me answering some of my questions I realized for her it's as if my A took place last week! She was that upset, that cruel, that much in pain. She must be in pain to say that her R with OM was justified. I do not think that its just FOG but also pain. My questions to her were not broad they were very SPECIFIC. Here's 2 such questions and answer from her email:

Let me preface to see these questions came up because she said I was making her feel guilty. I wanted to know what she felt guilty about and I though direct questions work best. I did not get the responses I was expecting:

Do you feel guilty about the feelings you have for another man besides your husband?

I can’t help how I feel, so no.

Do you feel guilty because you didn't break this relationship off with this other man once you noticed it was improper?

I never felt it was improper – we never did anything that was improper.

Here are my answers to the same questions put in the past tense for me of course:

Do you feel guilty about the feelings you had for another woman besides your wife?

Yes! I have long realized that I was looking for an escape from my own pain and built this OW up to be my solutions to that pain. I felt guilty at the time for my actions and I still guilty to this day about what I did to my marriage and my family!

Do you feel guilty because you didn't break this relationship off with this other woman once you noticed it was improper?

YES! It is one of the biggest mistakes, NO it is the biggest mistake I've made in my LIFE! I should have ended the R when things became improper but I thought there was no harm. I was never more wrong, and once I became swept up in it I was LOST. I don't know if my W can ever understand this, but I did not set out to have an A. It was tiny steps with each encounter and I regret it very much.


See what I mean? After I read these answers I realized that she must STILL be going thru very deep agony and resentment over my cruel actions YEARS AGO. She is so upset and unflinchable that she must be either very bitter of very cruel. My W is not cruel at all. She is a very warm person by nature so I concluded she is very bitter and what caused her bitterness? ME and my affair.

I knew she was hurt, betrayed and wounded, but this is years after the fact. She is still hurt, betrayed and wounded. I hope you understand that I am TOTALLY DEFOGGED! I am beyond DEFOGGED I am even sympathetic of my W's FOG to the point I ignore my own pain that she inflicts WILLINGLY and with NO REMORSE. She feels NO GUILT. Dr. Harley talked about this in "What to do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter 2 "

[I}Even though you have been very hurt by her affair, don't blame her for it. Don't expect her to apologize and don't ask her to explain the gory details.

She is probably suffering depression over the relationship not working out. It's a common symptom of withdrawal. She will want to talk to someone about how badly she feels. Try to be the one she confides in, even if what she says is how much she misses this other man. DON'T JUDGE HER! If you do, she simply won't open up to you. If you can't handle it, she should talk to a friend or a counselor, but don't risk losing her by venting your anger or your judgment on her. [/I]

This is what I think I should do, it will not be easy, but I think its my only real option. Plan B is what she wants because she is TIRED and she won't have to commit to anything. She would love Plan B I think and our M will END if I follow it. In her state of mind I think she feels it's just too much effort to work on our issues and since she is still going thru withdrawal from OM, it would suffice to say; I'm not her favorite person right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

Now she is telling me this:

I just want you to be happy and
enjoy your life. I complicate things.

She is quitting on me and our M. Why did she tell me all this answers to all the questions just to QUIT AGAIN. She told me time is a great healer. Time did not heal her, OM healed her and while she was here going thru withdrawal I tended to her. I went to the counselor with her, I worried about her over medicationing, I took away her prescription and rationed it because she was abusing it. I phoned her job and spoke with her employer. I took care of the children and tried to be as supportive as I could. Now she is breaking my heart and she says...OH TIME WILL TAKE CARE OF IT, I KNOW.

I just want out of this pain, she says she cares for me and always will but she doesnt want to come back. I feel very used and stupid for all my trying to mend my family. She will not check in here and post probably because she doesnt want to hear anyone say, Your Husband loves you, you should work on your M. She wants to take the path of least resistance.

Liny... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks!

(Sometimes I do sound different (to people who don’t know me) than my thoughts and intentions are, but I do always post with no bad intentions...)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
Yes I do understand, it hurts but I understand...
no offense taken...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I knew you would. Good.

It hurts? Good too.
Whenever we learn more about inner ourselves or begin seeing parts of us the way they really are (and which usually we (sub)consciously close our eyes when faced to for not liking to See them), it hurts.
This means you are on the right path!


I do hope your W will recognize a new yourself and come back Home.

You’ve got really good advise her; follow them, follow your heart and pray.
God bless!

I was so busy typing and falling apart I failed to see how much of an outpouring of love is here. I thank you all for showing me such compassion. I truly appreciate the kindnees and understanding that has been extended to me. Its just hard to accept all that I have been hit with over the last 24 hours. I tired so hard to reshape my W's view of me, but in the end if she cannot have OM she doesn't want to be in our home. I don't even think she sees how selfishly fogged out that action is, but I must accept it. I am where I started. Yes I have made mistakes but as you kind people have reminded me I have learned from mine. My W will have to learn from hers, and until she sees sleeping with OM while being my wife is wrong, until she feels that our M is valuable, important, worth cherishing and a gift from GOD that there is nothing I can do for her or our marriage. I am a much wiser man and a more compassionate man. I will extend her the compassion that she did not extend me and my deeds will return to me with blessings. You are all so right, I must lay my burden down and concern myself with today. Today is all I have and I should not live in the past. I have asked her to post here and she has refused. She is running away which is an action of hers I know oh too well. Our M is too important to avoid it as if it's an unpleasent smell or a seedy part of town. I aim to do some disenfecting and to revitalize the neighborhood. She is not on board and chooses to justify it by copping out on me and our family. I used to know this woman very well, and she was much more well-intentioned and warm. This new lady whom bears resemblence to my W is not my W at all. My W loved me and wanted nothing more than to bring beautiful babies into the world and sit on a rocking chair and catch a cool breeze 40 years from now as our great grandchildren crawled to and fro us like butterflies. This new woman, this replica is not my W, and I will try to wait to see if the real Mrs. Matters will stand up again.

sincerely,

FM

I didn't sleep last night. No, please allow me to rephrase, I could not find sleep. Today has been a swriling of emotional pitfalls and a humbling acceptance of my own weakenesses and humaneness. I did finally take a nap at about 12:30 this afternoon. I had my alarm clock set for 2:10, as I was to meet my son at the school bus stop at 2:30 sharp (he's 6 and in 1st grade). When I awoke I was very groggy, you can imagine when you've only gotten a hour and half sleep in over a 24 hour period. I searched for my keys which were hidden in plain sight of course, I did however find them at 2:33 and raced out the door to gather my son. I saw many children and kept sifting thru there smiling faces searching for my little piece of sunshine. I could not find him among them so I raced to the rear of our home hoping he went to the back door. Then I ran around to the front door even more panicky now, my heart pounding. I still could not find my son. The fear of every horrible, terrible, unimaginable, adrenaline covered desperation engulfed me. Where is my son! Finally I spotted him walking lonely down the sidewalk. Shaking I ran to him and hugged him. I was so relieved and terrified at the same time. He had chosen to walk home he said. He was visibly shaken by emotional state of desperation so I clamored to compose myself and calmly explained how the bus is there for all the kids and daddys to be sure they return to each other safely. I tell you all this story because it is my reminder that though I am swept up in the destructive hurricane of my W's absence from my life, I must remember at all costs, at each dip in the rollercoaster, that there are 2 people who are totally innocent from all of this upheavel: My children.

I will remind myself that GOD has placed them in my care and that there are far worse things than losing my W. There are also far worse things the constant self-pounding that I routinely have delivered in search of my own atonement for my contribution to my W's A, her fog and her indecision to recover our M. There are my children and their safety, their well-being, their smiling faces that I intend to preserve through all of this. My son has just reminded me that there are things to be grateful for, precious things to thank my GOD for and though I could not protect my M from this A I can do what is humanely possible to protect my children from the side-effects and the debris of this indfidelity hurricane that tosses my emotions into the whirling, twirling winds of regret, pain and loss. I must remember I am not free to indulge in self-loathing, self-pity or self-condmenation. There is much left to do and there's a bigger picture that desperately demands my attention and they are; my children, my health and my faith in GOD.

Thank you LORD for my children's health, safety and love.

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

FM....I just read every single post. I wasn't on long enough yesterday, but I'll tell ya man - I witnessed a transformation from beginning to where you were hugging your DS. I actually feel my heartbeat outside of my chest.....

You continue to prove that "the 25yr old FM" is not "the FM we all know". You, my distant friend and experienced one, and your family will be in my prayers tonight. I've read over the last week or so some differing opinions regarding what is taught here at MB. Different philosophies from other sites, other counselors, etc. With all the posts you received, I'm pretty sure most of it hit home (I was moved by 98% of it) and the only thing I want to add is "those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those of us who are doing it!"

Keep the faith FM. Your head is held high, your convictions are strong and you know what matters - family.....God Bless FM......LS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lostsailor:
<strong> FM....I just read every single post. I wasn't on long enough yesterday, but I'll tell ya man - I witnessed a transformation from beginning to where you were hugging your DS. I actually feel my heartbeat outside of my chest.....

You continue to prove that "the 25yr old FM" is not "the FM we all know". God Bless FM......LS </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lost,
Thanks friend! Now that my emotions have subsided a bit, I'm able to see things for what they are. I am where I was before my W hit me with a litany of justfifications for her actions and HER continued contact with OM and LEAVING OUR home are not JUSTIFIED. Her reasoning, though genuine and at least partially fueled due to feelings of betrayal by me, are nevertheless hollow-FOGGY irresponsible rationalizations. I am back on board now! I realize the reality of my situation, and putting aside all the drama and excitement it is as 3isa stated....
certain points remain :
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 3isacrowd:
<strong>

You still need to stay focused and make a PLAN ,,, the longer you sit around the more depressed you will become and the more nothing will get done ....

PLAN A ,, well if she comes back OM will still be in her life ,, can you deal with that ?

She may come back for just the kids again for the begining ,, can you live with that ????

Will she go to MC , even if she comes back for the kids its a start .

HAS she said , once and for all she wants a D ???

Is she fogged ? YES
Is she justifing her A ? YES
CAN she ? NO she still made a choice to deal with your A by having one of her own .

DOES she see this yet ? NO </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you 3isa! I need to make a PLAN, though I more fully understand my W's reasons for her actions and how my previous actions have contributed to her A, that has very little to do with her current choices. I also see that her clobbering me with much of her resentment may have been an attempt to back me off so she can continue with her destructive actions.

I will regroup tonight and choose a PLAN for my life and the well-being of my children. My W though somewhat bitter, is no BLIND WOMAN and she has seen over the last few years that I have changed very much! She knows this, it is her who has not changed. A's do very damaging things to not only the offending S but the offender, changes in conviction, character and all and out demon position. Yes ROBBY, I can see clearly now the rain is GONE! And I see based on my own experiences that she is still very FOGGED and that I will have to continue on with life and the business of providing my children with a loving environment. She will regret her decisions and lowly actions, just like I did, NOT NOW, but LATER, You would think her being a former BS would help her understand her OWN actions better and SEE the damage she is CAUSING, I know my experiences as a FWS have helped me better UNDERSTAND and DEAL with her ACTIONS. It's time to get back in the saddle and do what MUST be DONE. PEPPER thanks for the 2X4, GRAY as WELL! LINY you always keep a 2X4 handy, I am not so full of pride to think all of M issues are ONLY my creation. I am HUMAN, I made mistakes and I will move on pass them now. The issue remains:

My W is not home,
She feels she's done, and is DOING nothing wrong.
She stopped going to her IC
She is still very FOGGED
I am at home with our CHILDREN
I am not repeating this vicious cycle, she is!
It's time for a PLAN and a <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>