We are almost 3 years post d-day and it is still so hard...

We fought the other day and I've been getting the silent treatment and a few nasty looks and harsh words.

We have a business that requires H to talk to people at their homes doing bids and follow up work. That is how/where A #3 happened.

We have worked with SH a couple of times but due to our business being seasonal we are too busy to counsel in the summer. So, we go back to the same ole ways and withdraw and hurt each other.

Yesterday a woman called and needed H to come over for a follow up and she told me if she knows when he is coming she'll put a pot of coffee on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I told him such and added I didn't think that would be a good idea. (With Steve's help H committed to a plan to protect us from lonely women etc. He is to tell me when he is going to their house and not to go inside!) He has kept me informed sometimes. Lately he hasn't...of course he hardly talks to me either.

This morning I asked if he went in her house. He said YES! I asked why. He said he didn't know. I told him that it really hurt me to hear that as we had talked about it yesterday and I said I didn't think it was a good idea. And, that we had an agreement that he wouldn't go in houses with the ladies. He just waved his hand and said "hey, I'm sorry. " Kind of with a "geez, don't ya trust me?" type attitude. Uh, no.

I have had a real hard time with honesty and openness from him. He will usually tell me the truth, IF I ASK THE RIGHT QUESTION. Sometimes I will be surprised to hear something he has said, tell him "I didn't know that" or "you didn't tell me that" and he will respond "you never asked" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> WTF?

So today I feel gutted out again because he wasn't going to tell me he went in her house without proper questioning, and if I don't ask all the right questions I won't know anything else. So, I feel inclined to ask if anything happened because if I don't ask he won't tell. But, he gets pi$$ed when I ask questions and try to get the info I need.

It feels futile. Same song different verse.
Maybe he did it (went in her house-didn't tell) just to hurt me because he was already mad at me because I hurt him the other day.

I just don't get it.

Please help me sort this out...I'm in pain and don't know how to handle this anymore. I just want out...

Dear M&L,

I am sorry you are in such pain but IMHO you are dealing with your H in the wrong manner. Right now POJA and RH are not being practiced on both sides. This means if one partner is not participating and the other one requires it, then stuff like what you are experiencing is almost guaranteed to happen.

So, what t/d? Well, here is my idea......

Here is what looks like the current status:

1. U take his work calls that come to the house.
2. You have your personal boundaries. Do YOU know what they are?
3. There is no RO and POJA.
4. Your WS is not an H and refuses to provide you with the security you need to heal properly.
5. He prefers to make you angry and take you to limits crossing your personal boundaries.


What t/d:

a. Define your personal boundaries. These are feelings and events that you will NOT tolerate for any reason. It s/b a short list. These are things that when done, will cause you to alter your current lifestyle.

b. Implement the short list. Make no demands of your WS. This list is for you. What you enforce is to protect you. Similar to plan B.

When the WS starts to whine and complain that u/r giving him too many demands, calmly show him these don't look like demands to you, they are requirements for you to be able to handle your lifestyle.

c. Think about if you want to deal with incoming 'business calls' in your family's home.

d. Do more counseling w/Steve @ MB. Do it for you.

e. Define, create and implement a solid plan B when you are ready to handle it.

f. Prepare your mind that the WS is not looking out for the family's interest at this time and treat him as someone you w/b be cautious about. Why? Because you can't trust him.

g. Let the WS know that the 'trust factor' is bigger than the 'love factor'. Most WS have a harder time ranting over the trust factor because it is soooo obvious when there is no trust. The love factor is played to the hilt w/the WS and that is hurtful to the BS and family. Work from the trust factor angle.

h. Read His needs/Her needs by Dr W. Harley. Also the book Love Must Be Tough by Dr James Dobson is needed. Read both.

These items are a start. Let us know how you are doing.

take care,
L.

Orchid,
Thanks for responding!

There is a lot of info in your post so may I ask a few questions and make a few comments?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> U take his work calls that come to the house.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is our business and my part is to answer the phone (now a separate line in an office out of our house-until July 15 it was in our house!) and do the books etc. I have thought about not doing it (mainly when I am mad or hurt) but it keeps me connected to him in the only way I can connect with him-through his work. And, if I wasn't answering the phone and recieving these calls I would really be in the dark about what he does all day-and with whom and where. His brother is like that...wife doesn't get to know much of anything he does.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There is no RO and POJA</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True. And this is what is so difficult for me. Sometimes he is and sometimes he isn't honest with me. I can usually tell by recent events and his mood if he is being hornery or not. I don't want to play games. I want to know first time every time. Um, I answered thinking RO was radical honesty...blush...did I miss that one?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have your personal boundaries. Do YOU know what they are?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know what I don't like and have worked not to be pushed around by this kind of behavior without LB but I probably can't give you a definition of my boundary here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your WS is not an H and refuses to provide you with the security you need to heal properly.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree here. His actions are not consistent and I can't know from time to time which way we are going. I know if I cross him I will pay...as I am now...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He prefers to make you angry and take you to limits crossing your personal boundaries. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, he knows what I don't like and will use it to hurt me. I used to do the same thing but am learning not to do that (I still slip but am much more aware of it nowdays.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What t/d:

a. Define your personal boundaries. These are feelings and events that you will NOT tolerate for any reason. It s/b a short list. These are things that when done, will cause you to alter your current lifestyle.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds good-not sure how to do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">c. Think about if you want to deal with incoming 'business calls' in your family's home. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See above...not sure right now

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do more counseling w/Steve @ MB. Do it for you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The last time I called because we were having trouble and I was feeling hopeless Steve told me that my job was to get the info from H about EN questionairs and even if H did not participate by gathering info about my EN to bring him to the table (next call) so we can continue. I said I don't want to be the one responsible to get him to the counseling, I want him to want it too. Steve told me towards the end that he would allow me that session to vent (he was more eloquent of course) but from here out it was to be working with H on the plan (which has not been revealed yet as we haven't been back with our work done yet.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> So, I don't really feel he wants to work with just me right now..only us. And I don't have it in me to coax, drag, persuade, entice, or anything else, my H to the phone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Define, create and implement a solid plan B when you are ready to handle it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have thought about it...dreamed about it...space is available for it...not sure

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Prepare your mind that the WS is not looking out for the family's interest at this time and treat him as someone you w/b be cautious about. Why? Because you can't trust him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My mind is fully aware of this one. He is only looking out for himself. One of my big issues with him and trust is that he tells people too much about us and our business. And is dishonest with me about it because he knows I don't like it. He does better sometimes but its the same as the entering the houses issue, sometimes he doesn't protect me in that agreement either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let the WS know that the 'trust factor' is bigger than the 'love factor'. Most WS have a harder time ranting over the trust factor because it is soooo obvious when there is no trust. The love factor is played to the hilt w/the WS and that is hurtful to the BS and family. Work from the trust factor angle.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a hard time with the love factor, (his #1 EN) when I can't trust him from day to day. If he gets SF he is o.k., but if not I don't know what to expect..well I do know I am in for a few days of the silent treatment, looks, words etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Read His needs/Her needs by Dr W. Harley. Also the book Love Must Be Tough by Dr James Dobson is needed. Read both.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have read HNHN and H has read some..I will have to get Love must be tough. I keep hearing about it so it must be time to read it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thank you again for your help..I really need someone to walk me through this. I don't have an IC because of our location and as mentioned before I don't feel like Steve is my IC for now.

One other word that keeps coming to me...consistency. I want H to be consistent in everything with me and the kids...but we never know from day to day if he will keep his word with us. I need to feel safe with his actions and words every time.

(It won't let me preview my post so I am crossing my fingers that it makes sense)

Phew...that was a long post for me! Lots to think about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> marriedandlonely:
<strong>Yes, this is our business and my part is to answer the phone (now a separate line in an office out of our house-until July 15 it was in our house!) and do the books etc. I have thought about not doing it (mainly when I am mad or hurt) but it keeps me connected to him in the only way I can connect with him-through his work. And, if I wasn't answering the phone and recieving these calls I would really be in the dark about what he does all day-and with whom and where. His brother is like that...wife doesn't get to know much of anything he does.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: This maybe an option you can work around. Other BS have been in this situation and when the BS realized helping with the business was actually enabling the A, the business was handed back to the WS. Of course the impact to the family finances c/b hurt, so tread carefully.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no RH and POJA.

M&L: True. And this is what is so difficult for me. Sometimes he is and sometimes he isn't honest with me. I can usually tell by recent events and his mood if he is being hornery or not. I don't want to play games. I want to know first time every time. Um, I answered thinking RO was radical honesty...blush...did I miss that one?[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: It s/b RH (radical honesty).... sorry for the popha (sp???). You can't make him practice POJA and RH. If he isn't doing it then work on something else. You can work on you. He has to work on him. You can provide direction on how he can fix himself but only if he is receptive to it. Otherwise, go do something more constructive. You are trying to put a round peg in a square hole and now you are looking for the hammer....not a safe place t/b right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">M&L: I know what I don't like and have worked not to be pushed around by this kind of behavior without LB but I probably can't give you a definition of my boundary here. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: But your H seems to know what some of your boundaries. He keeps pushing your buttons. Take another long hard look at yourself. Call Steve....keep reading about my thoughts on Steve.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree here. His actions are not consistent and I can't know from time to time which way we are going. I know if I cross him I will pay...as I am now...[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Then make a better defense plan. Yes, he needs t/b consistent. Consistent does not always mean right, though. He c/b and probably is being consistently stupid and irritating.

You don't have to pay....you have to play it smarter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
a. Define your personal boundaries. These are feelings and events that you will NOT tolerate for any reason. It s/b a short list. These are things that when done, will cause you to alter your current lifestyle.

M&L: Sounds good-not sure how to do it. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Take a good hard look, make a list of what M&L will tolerate in yourself, others, family, WS vs H, etc. It will come. Takes time. You will find it quite revealing. Similar to the EN questionnaire but a bit more intense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">c. Think about if you want to deal with incoming 'business calls' in your family's home.

M&L: See above...not sure right now[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Explore what options you can. Even hire out if needed. Giving the WS less to spend on the A is always an LB incentive. LOL!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do more counseling w/Steve @ MB. Do it for you.

M&L: The last time I called because we were having trouble and I was feeling hopeless Steve told me that my job was to get the info from H about EN questionairs and even if H did not participate by gathering info about my EN to bring him to the table (next call) so we can continue. I said I don't want to be the one responsible to get him to the counseling, I want him to want it too. Steve told me towards the end that he would allow me that session to vent (he was more eloquent of course) but from here out it was to be working with H on the plan (which has not been revealed yet as we haven't been back with our work done yet.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> So, I don't really feel he wants to work with just me right now..only us. And I don't have it in me to coax, drag, persuade, entice, or anything else, my H to the phone. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Let Steve know, the WS isn't cooperating but you would like his input. Ask for personal counseling with an added benefit of Steve coaching you. That coupled with your reading, defining your boundaries and posting here, will give you great strength.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Define, create and implement a solid plan B when you are ready to handle it

M&L: Have thought about it...dreamed about it...space is available for it...not sure [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Plan B is not out of your reach. Just need to understand it properly and implement it wisely. Hint: Plan for the worst. Learn how to raise questions without providing the answers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Prepare your mind that the WS is not looking out for the family's interest at this time and treat him as someone you w/b be cautious about. Why? Because you can't trust him.

M&L: My mind is fully aware of this one. He is only looking out for himself. One of my big issues with him and trust is that he tells people too much about us and our business. And is dishonest with me about it because he knows I don't like it. He does better sometimes but its the same as the entering the houses issue, sometimes he doesn't protect me in that agreement either. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Forget the love factor. Work on the your trust factor. Make that your focus....the rest will follow. It is like pulling him by the ears instead of his chest hairs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Both will hurt but the ears are better connected. OUCH!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let the WS know that the 'trust factor' is bigger than the 'love factor'. Most WS have a harder time ranting over the trust factor because it is soooo obvious when there is no trust. The love factor is played to the hilt w/the WS and that is hurtful to the BS and family. Work from the trust factor angle.

M&L: I have a hard time with the love factor, (his #1 EN) when I can't trust him from day to day. If he gets SF he is o.k., but if not I don't know what to expect..well I do know I am in for a few days of the silent treatment, looks, words etc.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Don't expect anything. He is fogged in. Brain dumb. In reality, would you hire him in his state of mind? Gotta wonder what kind of quality work his customers are getting. If some want his pants more than his brains, then maybe they are dumber than they look. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Read His needs/Her needs by Dr W. Harley. Also the book Love Must Be Tough by Dr James Dobson is needed. Read both.

M&L: I have read HNHN and H has read some..I will have to get Love must be tough. I keep hearing about it so it must be time to read it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: U read both books....again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">M&L: Thank you again for your help..I really need someone to walk me through this. I don't have an IC because of our location and as mentioned before I don't feel like Steve is my IC for now. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: You are quite welcome. You definitely have options. I understand it maybe hard to see them right now. That is one of the benefits of posting here. We see them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">M&L: One other word that keeps coming to me...consistency. I want H to be consistent in everything with me and the kids...but we never know from day to day if he will keep his word with us. I need to feel safe with his actions and words every time. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: We covered the consistency thing.....you can't control it. Don't waste time over what you can't fix. In fact the more inconsistent he is, the more others will see it and help expose the A. This c/b done without you lifting a finger..... think about it.

take care,
L.

Orchid,
Thank you again. Profound. And a lot of info.

What I failed to say in the first post is that H is not involved in A #3 anymore. It was ended shortly after discovery. However, I do believe he is vulberable again as he is feeling neglected and misunderstood. And then he goes in to a womans house (who adores him and her dog absolutely loves him-he goes on and on about how the dog is so happy to see him every time and just licks and licks his face. )

I do believe his behavior is still the same as when the A was active...the fog stuff...so everything said still applies.

Still digesting all the info...will be back.

O.K...ready for some more...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Call Steve....keep reading about my thoughts on Steve.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where do I read about your thoughts on Steve?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are trying to put a round peg in a square hole and now you are looking for the hammer....not a safe place t/b right now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure I get this one. Can you explain please?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then make a better defense plan. Yes, he needs t/b consistent. Consistent does not always mean right, though.

You don't have to pay....you have to play it smarter.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I don't understand. How can I play it smarter? What do I do?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Take a good hard look, make a list of what M&L will tolerate in yourself, others, family, WS vs H, etc. It will come. Takes time. You will find it quite revealing. Similar to the EN questionnaire but a bit more intense.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure how to start this list but it will come. I have the book "Boundaries" and will look at it for guidance. Haven't done that in a long time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let Steve know, the WS isn't cooperating but you would like his input. Ask for personal counseling with an added benefit of Steve coaching you. That coupled with your reading, defining your boundaries and posting here, will give you great strength.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Will consider it. The problem is I don't know if I have it in me anymore. I don't really want to be in this M anymore. I am tired and worn out and don't have the mental energy for these games anymore. Not a good feeling. I can hardly stand to be around him anymore. I just feel angry with him a lot. I feel I have waited too long for any change (consistent long term change) and that I made a mistake by not exposing A and letting him back home too soon. I made him move out on d-day and he was out for 2 weeks. I didn't tell the kids why we were separated but I did tell his mom (they had left here the previous day and I had told her I had suspicions of an A) and I told my SIL who lives here and she told his brother. I wish sometimes I would have exposed to the whole world.

The kids don't know the real reason I was on anti-dep meds and was such a wreck for so long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I really want and need for him to take this mess and want to fix it...not just talk to Steve because that's what I want. I need to see a desire in him to find out why he cheats (and no, I don't think it's because of me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). I need him to look deep inside for the answers to his side of this. We have been through a lot with alcoholism and 3 A's and if things don't change I don't want it (the M) anymore. And, I am getting to the point that my options are opening up. Kids are growing up...My fear is that I will have an A if someone pays any attention to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B is not out of your reach. Just need to understand it properly and implement it wisely. Hint: Plan for the worst. Learn how to raise questions without providing the answers.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't get it. I don't know how to implement it. Where can I read about it? I've only read how others have done it by reading the threads and comments and references to the proper method but never read it for myself. Don't understand asking questions without providing answers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Forget the love factor. Work on the your trust factor. Make that your focus....the rest will follow. It is like pulling him by the ears instead of his chest hairs. Both will hurt but the ears are better connected. OUCH!!!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do I work on my trust factor? What do you mean?

Thanks for your patience with me...I ask a lot of questions..just ask H <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> but that is how I learn. I need it spelled out right in front of my beady little eyes in black and white...and I might get it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hi,

Sorry for the delay. Been on the phone scheduling an interview and house viewing.

I will get back to your questions later today. In the meantime, you may find some answers to your questions.

Get those books. I know they will help.

Remember this is about helping you, more than him.

take care,
L.

Orchid,
An update and continuation of the "going in houses" discussion at our house.

I asked H if he hugged the woman at this house..(he has a habit of doing this-something in the plan of protection that is now off limits). He smirked/laughed and said "I talked to her". I said the problem she needs help with is outside so there is no need to go inside. His reply: "she's been a good customer and we were just talking". I asked why he laughed and his reply, after much thought, was "it's never gonna get better is it?"

I then asked what he meant by that, was it about me "getting over it" (meaning the A) he said yeah.

I then told him that his plan of protection included not going into peoples houses, especially womens, and that it was not my plan but his. And, that I was hurt by his actions. He said "yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have done it." He didn't apologize, or sympathize or anything else, and almost never does anyway. He justs walks away and blows me off.

The reason I am giving this detailed example is to show how a discussion usually goes when he is not in the right. I guess I have improved somewhat in this area as I don't argue with him and don't LB but I still get very hurt by his lack of accepting responsibility for his actions that are hurtful to me. I think all I accomplish is that I let him know that he has succeeded in hurting me..and that may be all he wanted to do in the first place. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Pretty hard to want to fulfill his EN for SF.

I'm so tired of the head games. And I can't ignore it as he usually will not talk to me for days after something like this.

Congratulations on your move...and I hope you get settled in smoothly and quickly!

Are there 2 Love Must Be Tough books??

An original and the Family in Crisis one? Or are they one and the same? I'm confused.

Thanks!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>M&L: O.K...ready for some more...

Orchid: You are trying to put a round peg in a square hole and now you are looking for the hammer....not a safe place t/b right now.

M&L: Not sure I get this one. Can you explain please? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Your efforts, while they maybe good are not appreciated nor heeded. So all your efforts are right now for naught. When you get frustrated, you look for implements to bring harm to the ones hurting your family. This is not safe for U.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Orchid: Then make a better defense plan. Yes, he needs t/b consistent. Consistent does not always mean right, though.

You don't have to pay....you have to play it smarter.

M&L: Again, I don't understand. How can I play it smarter? What do I do </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Learn to reverse babble. Create ways of using the same tools to vent and work with WS' needs. Look into plan B.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Orchid:Take a good hard look, make a list of what M&L will tolerate in yourself, others, family, WS vs H, etc. It will come. Takes time. You will find it quite revealing. Similar to the EN questionnaire but a bit more intense.

M&L: Not sure how to start this list but it will come. I have the book "Boundaries" and will look at it for guidance. Haven't done that in a long time. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: That book Boundaries is quite good. I ready it and am up to pge 40.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Orchid: Let Steve know, the WS isn't cooperating but you would like his input. Ask for personal counseling with an added benefit of Steve coaching you. That coupled with your reading, defining your boundaries and posting here, will give you great strength.


M&L: Will consider it. The problem is I don't know if I have it in me anymore. I don't really want to be in this M anymore. I am tired and worn out and don't have the mental energy for these games anymore. Not a good feeling. I can hardly stand to be around him anymore. I just feel angry with him a lot. I feel I have waited too long for any change (consistent long term change) and that I made a mistake by not exposing A and letting him back home too soon. I made him move out on d-day and he was out for 2 weeks. I didn't tell the kids why we were separated but I did tell his mom (they had left here the previous day and I had told her I had suspicions of an A) and I told my SIL who lives here and she told his brother. I wish sometimes I would have exposed to the whole world.

The kids don't know the real reason I was on anti-dep meds and was such a wreck for so long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I really want and need for him to take this mess and want to fix it...not just talk to Steve because that's what I want. I need to see a desire in him to find out why he cheats (and no, I don't think it's because of me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). I need him to look deep inside for the answers to his side of this. We have been through a lot with alcoholism and 3 A's and if things don't change I don't want it (the M) anymore. And, I am getting to the point that my options are opening up. Kids are growing up...My fear is that I will have an A if someone pays any attention to me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: You have a will to survive more than you realize. The fact that you are still here on MB shows you want something t/d with your M.

You need to deal with issues you can control. Make your children part of your personal support group. Be an active part of theirs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Orchid: Plan B is not out of your reach. Just need to understand it properly and implement it wisely. Hint: Plan for the worst. Learn how to raise questions without providing the answers.

M&L: I don't get it. I don't know how to implement it. Where can I read about it? I've only read how others have done it by reading the threads and comments and references to the proper method but never read it for myself. Don't understand asking questions without providing answers. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: read suriving an affair. Call Steve for phone counseling.

As for asking questions w/o giving the answers, the purpose of using this technique is to leave him wondering. You want him to use his grey cells, exercise his brain.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Orchid: Forget the love factor. Work on the your trust factor. Make that your focus....the rest will follow. It is like pulling him by the ears instead of his chest hairs. Both will hurt but the ears are better connected. OUCH!!!

M&L: How do I work on my trust factor? What do you mean?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Your trust factor...... define what it will take for him to restore your trust in him. Then set it up as a guide. Don't make it too hard.

Hope this helps. Sorry for the delay.

Well, I just had a lesson in a boundary and H's resistence to a boundary.

Last night before we went to sleep he told me that I am his parole officer and a few other not so kind titles (can't remember them right now) and not what he wants me to be. I left it alone..

This morning I repeated that statement and asked if he would tell me what he wanted me to be. And sure enough, like I thought, he just wants a playmate. I listened for a long time without LB but then I had to put in my 2 cents. So it went astray and was non-productive.

I pointed out to him that whenever I try to just provide his wishes and make his dreams come true he starts with the 40 questions. (Are you doing this because you want to?, Is this what you want to do?, are you doing this because you have to?) And he is relentless. So, he's getting what he wants but it's not good enough. Ever. Even when it was going real well and I was into it he always came up with something to add that needed to be improved next time. He could never just enjoy what it is. He starts right in on how I can make it better next time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . I just did what he said would make it better and it's not good enough.

I asked if I was to be his playmate even when my needs are going unmet. And my #1 is Honesty and Openness. And that going in this womans house and not telling until I asked was not honest. And it broke the Plan of Protection. And it hurt me. And continues to hurt me as he defends his actions. Ya know what he said today? "you go look at her (project) and talk to her, it's a mess and needs fixing". I said I have no doubt that it needs fixed, and that you need to talk to her in order to fix it, but the project is outside and that's where you need to talk to her about it". I added, "you have a plan of protection written down that was spoken to me that includes not going in houses, especially single women, and by breaking that promise to me I feel very hurt". He got real pi$$ed and said "you just want to be my parole officer blah blah blah..." as he's leaving me in the car and walks away. I guess what she needs is way more important than what I need (and he promised to provide).** Edited to add: He even said that "the book" (HNHN) didn't say I need honesty and openness like air and water". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Insinuating that my need for H/O can't be near as important as his need for SF. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> **

So, when if was firmly stated that he was beyond my boundary and comfort zone and breaking HIS PROMISE he was really mad. He told me I was responsible for the mood in our house and that I would rather be the parole officer than anything else.

So, I think about just sucking it up and meeting his #1 EN and putting all my needs aside... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> and I can't do it. He is not nice to me, is not honest with me and wants me to be the playboy bunny, I can't even muster a fake desire to participate. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> And it's not meant to hurt him. I just can't do it.

I guess I have a lot of work to do.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I just don't know if I want to do it.

I know this is a vent, and hopefully part of the process to get where I need to be. I want to be happy but I don't want to be responsible for H's happiness. He needs to put in some consistent effort as well.

Go ahead, let me have it. I know I need to do something different...but I'm stubborn...

<small>[ September 04, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: marriedandlonely ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>M&L: Well, I just had a lesson in a boundary and H's resistence to a boundary.

Last night before we went to sleep he told me that I am his parole officer and a few other not so kind titles (can't remember them right now) and not what he wants me to be. I left it alone..

This morning I repeated that statement and asked if he would tell me what he wanted me to be. And sure enough, like I thought, he just wants a playmate. I listened for a long time without LB but then I had to put in my 2 cents. So it went astray and was non-productive.

I pointed out to him that whenever I try to just provide his wishes and make his dreams come true he starts with the 40 questions. (Are you doing this because you want to?, Is this what you want to do?, are you doing this because you have to?) And he is relentless. So, he's getting what he wants but it's not good enough. Ever. Even when it was going real well and I was into it he always came up with something to add that needed to be improved next time. He could never just enjoy what it is. He starts right in on how I can make it better next time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . I just did what he said would make it better and it's not good enough. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: I see progress.... believe it or not... here goes.... You have started to define your boundaries and he is showing you his current colors. Not pretty but accurate. File this info away for now.

What you need to realize is right now there is NOTHING you can do to 'satisfy him'. Nothing. Ask him how a messy, smelly client gives him satisfaction worth risking his family for. I'm serious. My H was a gardener and when he was with the OW, used the same excuse. BTW, he did gardening @ her house and she paid him via her panties - stinky and all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>M&L:I asked if I was to be his playmate even when my needs are going unmet. And my #1 is Honesty and Openness. And that going in this womans house and not telling until I asked was not honest. And it broke the Plan of Protection. And it hurt me. And continues to hurt me as he defends his actions. Ya know what he said today? "you go look at her (project) and talk to her, it's a mess and needs fixing". I said I have no doubt that it needs fixed, and that you need to talk to her in order to fix it, but the project is outside and that's where you need to talk to her about it". I added, "you have a plan of protection written down that was spoken to me that includes not going in houses, especially single women, and by breaking that promise to me I feel very hurt". He got real pi$$ed and said "you just want to be my parole officer blah blah blah..." as he's leaving me in the car and walks away. I guess what she needs is way more important than what I need (and he promised to provide).** Edited to add: He even said that "the book" (HNHN) didn't say I need honesty and openness like air and water". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Insinuating that my need for H/O can't be near as important as his need for SF. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ** </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: He is trying hard to justify himself but you are showing his 'logic' is not convincing enough. This is good (for U). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He will try to use MB principles and your boundaries against you. Be like teflon. For now let him insinuate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>M&L: So, when if was firmly stated that he was beyond my boundary and comfort zone and breaking HIS PROMISE he was really mad. He told me I was responsible for the mood in our house and that I would rather be the parole officer than anything else. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Yep, you reach out and yanked his A chain. He will be this way until he realizes he you have his # and he doesn't have yours (re: you will have found a way to NOT let him go past your boundaries)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>M&L: So, I think about just sucking it up and meeting his #1 EN and putting all my needs aside... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> and I can't do it. He is not nice to me, is not honest with me and wants me to be the playboy bunny, I can't even muster a fake desire to participate. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Don't let his needs push you past your boundaries. It will only increase the frustration you are already feeling. What you can do is let him know that his requests are confusing. Don't explain to much further. You want him to deal with his confusion and what is eminating out as a result. It could get a bit ugly but your boundaries will help you survive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>M&L: And it's not meant to hurt him. I just can't do it.

I guess I have a lot of work to do.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I just don't know if I want to do it.

I know this is a vent, and hopefully part of the process to get where I need to be. I want to be happy but I don't want to be responsible for H's happiness. He needs to put in some consistent effort as well. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Don't worry about hurting the WS. Worry about hurting your H. Tell him so. It will confuse him more but it will also make him see that he is morphing into another alien type of character. I did that to my WS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>M&L: Go ahead, let me have it. I know I need to do something different...but I'm stubborn... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Don't need to let you have it. LOL!!! You have made good progress but the fog is keeping you from seeing it.

take care,
L.

Oh Orchid! It is starting to make sense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What you need to realize is right now there is NOTHING you can do to 'satisfy him'. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something I have felt for a long long time. However, he argued me out of it occasionally. Not much anymore though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't let his needs push you past your boundaries. It will only increase the frustration you are already feeling. What you can do is let him know that his requests are confusing. Don't explain to much further. You want him to deal with his confusion and what is eminating out as a result. It could get a bit ugly but your boundaries will help you survive.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand a little of this...but not all. How do I help him to deal with his confusion? Or can I?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't worry about hurting the WS. Worry about hurting your H. Tell him so. It will confuse him more but it will also make him see that he is morphing into another alien type of character. I did that to my WS.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have considered him a FWS..but tried to explain to H and SH "this behavior". I have had a hard time trying to describe it to anyone, don't even understand it myself. I guess that is part of this process...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have made good progress but the fog is keeping you from seeing it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THANKS! On days like today I feel like we'll never learn. And worse, I don't want to. H is acting a little better since I was gone to town-went and bought the book-Love must be Tough. Not sure I'm ready for it but it's a rainy day and a good (?) book and a bathtub full of bubbles may be just what I need.

P.S. I'm in the fog too? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I thought I was the one seeing things clearly!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>M&L: Oh Orchid! It is starting to make sense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Good!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Orchid: Don't let his needs push you past your boundaries. It will only increase the frustration you are already feeling. What you can do is let him know that his requests are confusing. Don't explain to much further. You want him to deal with his confusion and what is eminating out as a result. It could get a bit ugly but your boundaries will help you survive.

M&L: I understand a little of this...but not all. How do I help him to deal with his confusion? Or can I? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Help him with his confusion by either ignoring it (at times) or giving him more confusion (reverse babble) at other times. Whatever you do, don't try to clear up his confusion while he is in an irrational state. If you can't tell if he is sane or not, ask him. He may get mad a few times but after a while, he may calm down and be more honest about his wacky state of mind. This can also be a gauge for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> M&L: I have considered him a FWS..but tried to explain to H and SH "this behavior". I have had a hard time trying to describe it to anyone, don't even understand it myself. I guess that is part of this process... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Let your Ws know when you need to speak to your 'H'. When he tries to tell you he is your H, gently remind him that your real H would not allow his W t/b treated sooo cruely as the WS has been, then ask him to go find your H so you can share some important info w/only your H. If he stubbornly says he is the H and not the WS, let him know that when you see him acting like your H, you will know if it is safe to share this important info, then walk away.

Nothing ticks off a WS more than to be left hanging on and the WS not knowing all that the BS has going on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> M&L: On days like today I feel like we'll ever learn. And worse, I don't want to. H is acting a little better since I was gone to town-went and bought the book-Love must be Tough. Not sure I'm ready for it but it's a rainy day and a good (?) book and a bathtub full of bubbles may be just what I need. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Roller coaster ride. Can't avoid it but you can lessen the impact. That idea of a quite place to read the book sounds good. Just don't get the pages soggy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> M&L: P.S. I'm in the fog too? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I thought I was the one seeing things clearly!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Hope not. But the fog will certainly try to periodically roll in. You choose whether you will allow yourself t/b fogged in or not.

take care,
L.

<small>[ September 04, 2004, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Orchid..

I think I made my point very clear to H the other day about how I don't trust him if he will continue going in houses.

I initiated SF <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . I insisted on protection. He asked why. I said because my radar is up and I don't feel like you are telling me everthing so I need this until I know what the truth is. He got pretty quiet and said nothing is going on. The next morning I told him I can't stand it when he will fiercly protect his "right" to do whatever he wants (disregarding agreements and promises) and defend it instead of apologize. He never really apologizes but said "I shouldn't have done that".

Things went pretty good for a few days but today I'm pretty grumpy. Started out with him peeing off the deck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Why? Because he can. I told him I think it is disgusting. He just smiles and gets all macho. Man, that really Pi$$es me off.
Then got a little bossy about some bill we owe. Set me in the wrong mood. He did ask why I was grumpy and I told him all of the above. He said "that ain't no big deal" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> He goes in to shower and when he comes outside he's all happy...tells me "i"m sorry you feel bad..I hope you feel better soon." That makes me madder than the stupid stuff he did!

I will die the day he says something like "I'm sorry I was so disrespectful by peeing off the deck. If it bothers you I won't do it again". Instead I get a puffed up chest and an
"I'm sorry you don't understand what it means to urinate, in your robe, off your very own deck in the wee hours of the morning even when there is a bathroom unoccupied" smug look.

Not sure if that is all that made me pi$$y but it got me off to a rip snorting start <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Could it be that tomorrow is 3 year anniversary of D-Day #3? I still think about "it" a lot and don't know if the pain will ever go away. And I wish I could talk to him and land next to him in a pile and know he would comfort me. But alas, I'm dreaming again. It makes me so sad that he has NO CLUE how bad I hurt. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Dork.
Thinking about anti'dep meds again. But I didn't like them...