RenaissanceMan had a thread going and an ensuing discussion took place, with OctoberGirl stating this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would wager that if I went out on the street today and asked 1000 people if they knew what Infidelity was(cheating,adultery,etc)most,if not all, could give me an adequate definition.So when we discuss the idea that maybe some people just don't know when they are crossing the line or boundaries well,I just don't buy into that.Sorry.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even though it was directly in response to the EA vs PA, as objectively as humanly possible due to all of our situations, I would be curious at what others think. I thought it would be intersting if we really could do this as a real poll. One day, maybe. It definitely turned into an intersting and thought-provoking thread.

I think it's a good idea! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sounds interesting!

I think MOST people don't know what an EMOTIONAL AFFAIR is. I know I didn't! I think most people slip into EA's unknowingly though. I'm not referring to serial cheaters mind you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

A Physical A? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> blah no one will ever get me to believe they are accidental. You make your mind up somewhere during the EA to move to a PA. Nothing just happens, clothes don't fall off, they need help to come off. The whole soul mate theory is baloney, they imply no work, and are fueled by infatuation. R's take work, patience and committment.

You know I have to think that most adult people, (well all adults) know the difference between what is appropriatte, and what is not, EA or PA.

I am not even married and I am extremely careful with any friendships I have at work with married men. In fact I don't even really have friendships with MM. It's called having RESPECT for them and their marriages.

Everyone knows the difference between right and wrong, and I really believe that married people know their "friendship" with the opposite sex is wrong, they just don't care for whatever reasons. And then it just turns into a sexual relationship because they can't help it, already gone too far, didn't see it coming, blah blah blah - B*ll Sh*t.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I really believe that married people know their "friendship" with the opposite sex is wrong, they just don't care for whatever reasons.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
Weaver, the above is a very broad & general assumption and not always the case… Things are not always black and white, especially regarding opposite sex friendships and EA’s. Anyway, I don’t want to go into detail about it again but if you read this thread of RenaissanceMan (the thread LINY has referred to), you will understand where I’m coming from as someone who have been in a opposite sex friendship with a MM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> You know I have to think that most adult people, (well all adults) know the difference between what is appropriatte, and what is not, EA or PA.

I am not even married and I am extremely careful with any friendships I have at work with married men. In fact I don't even really have friendships with MM. It's called having RESPECT for them and their marriages.

Everyone knows the difference between right and wrong, and I really believe that married people know their "friendship" with the opposite sex is wrong, they just don't care for whatever reasons. And then it just turns into a sexual relationship because they can't help it, already gone too far, didn't see it coming, blah blah blah - B*ll Sh*t. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, yup...it's very inappropriate. I wish I would have realized all of this 10 years ago, but I didn't. Looking back though Weaver I have to say I had no intention of having an A. When things reached an inappropriate level you're already sucked in. The key I think to avoiding A's is never engage in behaviour or actions that you would feel uncomfortable doing if your S or the other persons S was standing right there!

I have changed a whole lot since my A years ago. I personally feel offended when I get hit on by OW. I wonder to myself "What is it about me that gives you the impression that I lack integrity in my M?"

I understand your opinion Weaver, just looking back wondering what I was thinking back then. It's been a LONG while, but if memory serves me I didn't mean to start any type of an A. The ingredients have to be present, spending time with someone of the opposite sex, discussing things you shouldn't about your M, and then again if you look at it from that perspective, YOU GET WHAT YOU ASK FOR. We are not children, we know when a convo is going in the wrong direction, we know when we are crossing the line, but we might think it's manageable because nothing improper has happened. The truth is if you question if an action is improper; it probably is and donot fool yourself into thinking it won't happen to you.

I learned the HARD way and do not wish it on anyone.

<small>[ September 06, 2004, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a new ''crisis of infidelity'' breeding in the workplace, says Baltimore psychologist and marital researcher Shirley Glass. Often it does not involve sexual thrill seekers, but ''good people,'' peers who are in good marriages.

''The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they've crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love,'' Glass says.

Glass' 25 years of research on ''extramarital attachments'' adds to a growing understanding of just what constitutes infidelity and why it happens.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The above illustrates my point and was take from an article I’ve posted on this thread last year. Shirley Glass (the author of the book “Not Just Friends”) is a psychologist and marital researcher who have studied infidelity for 25 years, so obviously she must know what she’s talking about.

<small>[ September 06, 2004, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet -

To me it is VERY black and white, and if someone sees it as being "gray", then that is their first mistake.

... and nothing I read will convince me that my opinion is too "generalized".

But you are as equally entitled to your opinion as I am of mine, even if they differ. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Weaver

Thanks Suzet and I agree. I don't believe most people really set out to have A's, maybe I'm naive on the subject. Most people who get married want to be happily married. I think the conditions which lead to A's must be remedied. The actions that you engage in which lead to EA's must be avoided. The problem was for me, I had to learn the hard way. How do you warn others of what not to do, especially if they don't see what they're doing is a problem.

Anything?anyone that creates separation between you and your S needs to be eliminated. Your reluctance to eliminate only confirms why it should be eliminated.

This is a great thread, though sort of analytical in nature because if you're here, you know all about A's, how they start, how they should end, and the damage they cause. I wish I could go back and talk to that FM back then and tell him what I know now, but I can't. Time to move forward and be a better man because of it and everyday thank GOD I have another chance <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> Suzet -

To me it is VERY black and white, and if someone sees it as being "gray", then that is their first mistake.

Weaver </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right WEAVER...that's how I SEE IT NOW. No grays, I'm either committed or I'm not, my friendships either support my M or they do not, and I respect myself or I don't. No fog here Weaver, just trying to relate to a time when I was in the fog.

I can see clearly now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know FM, I don't think most people set out to have a full blown affair either, atleast I really hope not.

Like you said it is something we learn as we mature into adults. Yes we make mistakes along the way, and we pay, and we learn.

That is why we have to be careful, and one of the ways we are careful is to stay away from inappropriate behaviours, like opposite sex friendships.

But I still believe that people know their friendship is inappropriate long before it becomes an EA/PA. Even if that knowledge is unconscious because we have pushed it below the surface for our own selfish reasons.

And I am not being judgemental as I was an OW, and a BS long before that. I love people, all people even those who make dumb decisions, which is exactly what this would be. A DECISION, even as innocent as you want to believe it is.

FM says "No grays, I'm either committed or I'm not, my friendships either support my M or they do not, and I respect myself or I don't."

I love the way you said this. You hit it right on the head! If my Ex could ever even come close to understanding that concept, I would even think about reconciling with him.

Do you think you could talk to him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Weaver

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
<strong>Right WEAVER...that's how I SEE IT NOW. No grays, I'm either committed or I'm not, my friendships either support my M or they do not, and I respect myself or I don't. No fog here Weaver, just trying to relate to a time when I was in the fog.

I can see clearly now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Familymatters, I think & feel exactly the same than you about this... NOW, after I've learned my lesson the HARD way and corrected all the wrong perceptions I had about opposite sex friendships, there is NO MORE gray areas for me and I can also see clearly NOW, but this wasn't the case before I became involved in an opposite sex friendship and learned these things the hard and painfull way.

<small>[ September 06, 2004, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

I liken emotional affairs to the frog in the hot water analogy. If you threw a frog in a pan of scalding water it would quickly leap out in shock. If you put a frog in cold water and slowly turn the heat up, he will stay in the water to it's death! [poor little frog! it's just an analogy, Mel! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ] I can see how it would be easy to cross an invisible line without being aware of its impact.

But I also very much agree with weaver about knowing right from wrong. We eventually know when it has crossed into the wrong territory, it's just gone too far and many just don't want to admit it at that point. And I agree that folks shouldn't put themselves in that position in the first place.

LINY -

Okay, I'll bite. Over the years I have always worked with all men. I'm a project manager, and the people I work with just happen to be men - contractors, engineers, construction workers.

And I have worked very closely with them, even traveling to distant sites, and spending the night.

Before I was married, I got kinda wild. But I always respected the wife of those who were married. That meant that we could be friends, but there would be no words or actions between us that I would be ashamed to have the wife hear about. There was a solid boundary up.

When I got married, my WH did not like several of my men friends (one was even gay). So I explained to them that I was married now, someone's wife, and had to respect my husband's feelings.

Then I continued on with the same mantra - thinking of my husband listening in on each and every conversation. Also I no longer went for drinks, over to men's houses, or anything else that could be construed as inappropriate for a married woman.

The funny thing is, with all of these boundaries in place, it was my WH who strayed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
I wish I could go back and talk to that FM back then and tell him what I know now...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this pretty much sums it up for any FWS that is working on their recovery. Not even the person, just telling him the knowledge. (Back then, he might have gotten a can of a$$ whoop opened up on him.}

I know it's the end of a long weekend...interested in the responses in the upcoming week as well. Thanks for everyone's input.

^^bump^^