Bob Pure - It's good to read that you and your wife had such a needed and good discussion and that you were able to sleep peacefully. And yes, I understand what you mean by the "little things" having so much more meaning. God is faithful to all of His promises, even the teaching of "priorities" and what is truly important.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your WH attitude is just the one that my WW has regarding OM. Why can't I realise they had a beautiful thing together and they can still be friends? She belives the A is over as she hasn't had sex with him in eight weeks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This "wanting to be friends" post discovery and/or end of the affair is very common. My wife went through it for 2 years with occasional contact. Each time it ripped my guts out, but she finally "understood" that part of her life had to be gone forever. You'll get there too, hopefully much sooner.

Here's one way to look at it that you might be able to use with your wife should the appropriate situation arise.

Remaining "friends" and "in contact" is essentially the same thing as remaining "friends" and "in contact" with someone who had raped her. Let's just suppose that you were friends with the rapist prior to the rape and consented, perhaps even assisted in making your wife available to the rapist, because you didn't think it would hurt her if he was alone with her. Then it turned into "friend rape," "date rape", or "forced rape." Would she want you to simply remain friends with him simply because there would be no more physical rape?

Would you be that callous and unfeeling toward your wife?

Would the "line of friendship" be irretrievably crossed? Can the "broken egg" ever be reassembled and put back together "the way it was" before the rape?

No, not likely. But that is essentially what she is "asking" of you because she still has a strong emotional tie and is in "fogland," just as you might have with the hypothetical lifelong "friend." It does hurt to lose someone who you cared about and had a friendship with, but forsaking ALL others is the covenantal promise you BOTH made when you got married. Each of you is the most important one, and the only one for each other, "alone against the world" if necessary.

Bob, through marriage you and your wife became "one flesh" in the mystery of God's plan for marital union. In that "one flesh" you were "raped," forced to have unwilling and unwanted sex with someone other than your spouse. You gave no consent, yet the "attack" on you was done to satisfy the attackers "needs," as if that was sufficient justification.

There MAY come a time when the OM finds Christ, confesses his sins, and is "born again." If that should occur, he may even seek your forgiveness, which I am sure you would give him then. BUT, forgiveness by you for his actions, his sin, does NOT mean that you allow him anywhere near your family ever again. You do not keep the "weak flesh" around for further temptation or to keep the memory of the adultery "alive" in your mind. We don't stone adulterers to death anymore, but we also don't allow them to be involved in our lives in any way simply because some "acts" cannot be undone and returned to the "way it was."

It is your responsibility to protect your wife and your marriage, so "forsaking all others" includes no reestablishment of any "friendship" that was irretrievably shattered. Extraordinary precautions preclude any such future friendship. It is a consequence of the sin. The sin may be forgiven, but the consequences do not magically disappear. We live with the consequences.

Stay the course you are on Bob. It is hard to endure and to be patient. But it will pay great dividends "down the road." You are doing great. It's early and the dawn seems to breaking. The first rays of light are beginning to be seen. Darkness is still all around, but before long the light will overpower the darkness and it will be gone, only shadows to remain as a reminder that there IS dark as well as light.

With respect to the contact made by the OM's GF. You will have to talk to her. You may be able to help her, since it seems she has no "MB" type of help around. You also need to hear what she has to say as a "barometer" of where your wife's affair is currently. But, in light of your new discussions with your wife, let me caution you that you should POJA this contact IF you believe that your wife, while struggling, has been trying to reestablish your marriage. If so, you need to let your wife know that the GF asked you to call her and that you will call her to see how you can help her. Your wife isn't likely to like it, but it, too, is one of the consequences of the affair, of the unavoidable pain that comes as a result of the sin.

God bless.

FH your rape anaology is exactly how I feel ! Only half the spiritual and physical unit went voluntarily into sex with that Man. I cleaved unto my W and became a single living unit before God when married. I was "raped", and I feel exactly so as predicted by scripture. The analogy you use regarding contact is great too.
I will save it in case I need to use it but i hope not.

I have already considered that I will be radically honest if OM GF does speak to me. Not sure about POJA, WW will ask me to stop all contact with her, and I will probably have to deny her request once more in respect to OM GF , because as you say she is hurting and I may be able to help OR gain insight into the health of the affair from OM end.

Thanks , as ever for your Godly insight. It really helps me install God at the centre of my life not just the A. and recovery.

Hi Bob,

on your question why I didn't expose to OWH.

First of all, exposure is needed to end the A. But it ended immediately when I found out, it had been on it's last legs anyway, and my H had never been "in love" with OW (I found proof of all this, the Lord works in mysterious ways <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).
So there was no real reason for exposure to end the A.

Furthermore because I think OW (my ex-best friend) should have the opportunity to do this herself. It would have meant a world of difference to me if my H would have confessed instead of me having to find out myself. If he had confessed, it would have been a lot easier for me to trust him afterwards.
OW said she will tell her H but she needs to fix some things in her M first. I'm willing to give her the chance to come clean herself.

Also OW was deeply ashamed when I found out. She immediately agreed to NC when I asked for it. In the conversations I had with her I saw her "emerge" from the fog - from "You'd better take care of your H now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> " to "I thought it was all right because if felt so good" to "Oh my God, what have I done, how can I ever make this up to you."
Though there is no garantuee, I think she has been shocked into reality - that's it's not OK to have some fun sex between friends behind your partner's back - and that she is committed to her M now.

There is one big however here - if she should ever make a move towards my H again... Then the deal's off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> !!

AHH ! BH! I understand !

Just had a LOVELY lunch with WW. Our honesty and sharing made us both cry in Chiquitos mexican diner !
Too personal to post here, but lovely. More progress. *sigh *

Great <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !! I'm especially glad you're moving into the "too personal to post here" stuff. That's really good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Dear BH my head is still in bits, I just sobbed my thanks to God walking in the sun to fetch my son from school ! The honesty and compassion tumbled out of us and into each other hearts.

The one bit I will let on is that I held her hands across the table, looked her in the eye and said " You are a GOOD person WW. Your lifetime of goodness was not invalidated by this mistake. You can ask God to forgive it and he will not hold it against you.
I think you are a GOOD person who has made some bad decisions, and I will have words with anyone who says otherwise."

The tears ran down my stubborn wife's cheeks and she smiled a shaky smile. She squeezed my hands back. And sobbed silently. And we talked for another hour. Wonderful. Thank you God for giving my clumsy mouth your words to use to touch WWs heart. THANK YOU.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wow, Bob! way to go! Great statement - well done. That is what I so long to say to my H - but he's not ready to hear it yet. I did say it to my L, though, when I refused to file. I told him my H was a good good man and he will be one again someday. I don't know if I will still be there when he comes back from planet Uranus, but I hope so. That is my intention. The best I can do is to gently touch him on the back or shoulder and gently say, " I am not your enemy." I so long for the point you have reached. Hang in there, from what I've read, you (and I) still have a long, long road ahead. And remember, it's only uphill one way!

Bob:

It sounds like things are progressing enough that there will come a time, possibly very soon, where you will have 2 go NC on the OM's GF, as part of NC with that "side" of the universe in general.

It is up 2 the OM's GF whether she wants 2 save her R with OM or not, and if she does (hopefully), she'll have 2 decide whether she needs more "information" from outside her R or whether she can trust the OM and her own ability 2 reconnect with him.

Just don't let this "helping out the OM's GF" 2rn in2 a distraction from YOUR ultimate goal.

best,
-ol' 2long

I agree with my bud 2Long.... in fact, I was thinking the same thought...

Once the NC letter is signed by you and your W, Bob.... you must end contact with OM's GF..... it's a fresh start all around.

We did this.... I agreed to only call OW's H *if* there was renewed contact needing to be disclosed....

Pep

2long, pep thats very clear. If WW is NC OM GF and I can concentrate only on our own M. I have nothing more to tell OM GF other than NC is in place or it is not.

I can hardly expect WW to maintain NC while I sneak around in her OMs life can I ? If NC is in place and works I hope to never cast a thought upon OM and his life agin, apart from wishing his family happiness.

* edit * Also, I have learned through this time that manipulation is a no-no. Making people do stuff just doesn't work long term.

I quite obviously do not have OMs best interests at heart so how can my interference, once my WW is out of his life for ever possibly help?

If /When OM GF calls me again I will see if we can help each other at this time, point her at MB, and tell her that I hope to send them a LNC very soon, which applies to the four of us.

Sending her the proof/exposure was a humane act, not a manipulative one. Once the A is over, why should there ever be contact again, unless we find that the A is at risk of restarting?

Wow, stuffs moved fast this week. I hope and pray that my WW decides to NC soon so a sto set a positive context for these discussions and activities.

* Starz, it feels like nothing's happening for ever, but it IS. You both walk the path you need to in order to get a to a point where you can trust each other with heart honesties. I am sure we will regress also, but the last three days have been revelatory.And I know it sound sreally glib to unbelievers and even folk who haven't seen the open manifestation of God's intervention in their lives as I believe I have, but Gods done all this. I am not emotionally articulate enough to speak as I have these three days. I haven;t been able to speak into my WWs heart for 2 or 3 years, but thee days every word went in like an arrow. And He processed the replies for me too.

there is a peace in our home, and a mood between us that something is happening.

You will get there starz. If clumsy, faithless Bob can arrive thee, You certainly can. Also, nothing has been achived yet. WW may still decide to leave me. But at least we can begin to make ourdecisions honestly now.

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Another unbelievbly positive day. Some heart truths exchanged. She's MILES form loving me again yet, but hailing frequency is open now at least. I am learning so much, a lot of it hurts.

I have plan a'ed like a crazy thing today.And I will continue so. Oddly the heart to heart conversations we are having is an EN being met for my WW and I only discovered that yesterday. So these talks progress our recovery AND support plan A.

It hurts so much when she talks of OM in good tones. I do hope that changes I really do. It hard not to counter with info from OMGF etc etc. Not the time right now, if ever.

Off to bed to my chaste couch. Thanks all.

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

~LOL~

These 2 statements are inconsistent with each other.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


1. Some heart truths exchanged.

2.She's MILES from loving me again yet

Naw-uh! "Heart truths exchanged" is a VERY loving and trusting sign!

HOLY SMOKES BOB !!!!!

You are going to be in "RECOVERY" if this keeps up ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Bob, you said everyone has to play out their parts. That is so true.

I'm so pleased you are starting to see "your" w again. I have very big hopes for you guys because it seems to be playing out identically to how it was for us.

You say your w speaks of the OM in "good" tones. This is also very normal for the fogbound. H used to say to me that every conversation seemed to come back to the OM and I would get a faraway look on my face. With time and reality setting in, this phase passes.

Jen

Jen, It amazes me how affair are all the same (within sort of sub-categories that is). Your story is inspirational, one that kept (keeps) me going when all seems lost.

I do hope and pray we work out as well as you guys have. Right now I fear that I will have to live with the spectre of WW always pining for OM, and I am too proud a man to have that happen. Still, I cannot worry about things that may not happen and I cannot control. Things are moving fast right now. I need to concentrate on our next step,not some potential wrong turn up ahead.Thanks jen ! {{{{JEN}}}

* Pep, I guess you're right. Its really hard to hear some of them. REALLY hard (like, for example " This A was about companionship, I was so lonely...." - THAT breaks my heart and I don't think it was Fog. I should've FORCED myself into her seperate world to be there for her. The only thing WW was missing in her seperate Karate world was companionship, and she found it (sort of) with OM. And I just sat on the wings, sadly "lazy loving" her , never knowing how lonely she had become.... Makes me ache. And I fear there will be more.... This stuff is 90% way too personal to post here. Two grown adults crying like babies in a Mexican Restaurant was wierd yesterday ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Still, we must do this. I PRAY we get to recovery some day Pep, but theres still no NC decision from WW. I will review that in a month, trying not to be impatient. Its a big deal for her I know , in part as she is still drawn to him, but also because it means giving up refereeing, at least until we know it is not a contact risk anymore, and she is loth to do that.(well, sh gte smisty eyed about reffing,it got her prestige in her sport AND a man she 'loves' who added some excitement to her life. Who wouldn't love that if still foggy ?

FWIW she also told me that OM DID NOT call her to tell her about his son's death, it was a mutual friend and referee that told her. OM only called her twice since I exposed, and that was (1) to beg me not to send proof and (2)to tell WW to back off once I DID send proof. WW has tried to contact OM though. The Ba(s)tphone hasn't been used now since August 25th according 2 the statement.

She could be lying again of course, so I'm not hanging my hat on it. BUT she is showing withdrawal behaviour, so it indicates that may be true.

Things are moving fast then. I hope I can keep up. Thank you God.
* thanks for your care Pep. It means a lot *

<small>[ September 09, 2004, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by Bob Pure:

Its really hard to hear some of them. REALLY hard (like, for example " This A was about companionship, I was so lonely...." - THAT breaks my heart and I don't think it was Fog.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GOOD for YOU Bob!

You are able to pick out the kernel of truth in what she says.

You will find out what your faults and missteps were/are in the marriage if you keep your pride in check and listen with an open mind (but not too open.... then your mind leaks)

When my pride allowed, I was able to see the ways I had been hurting my H ~for years~ with some of my ~style~ of expressing myself. Now, my H played a part in this as well .... he did not stand up for himself when I needed to be stood up to. THAT was one of the ~milestones~ in our recovery! When I ~thanked~ my H for standing up to me.... and it took a very long time for me to self-correct and learn how to not step all over him .... to get to a point where I could anticipate my error without him needing to correct me afterwards. Old habits must die!

Pep

Pep, I know all about that. I had a similar way of expressing stuff to my H that wasn't very uplifting.

Then I had a real problem with always wanting to be right...I tried to think of it like a game but it was not any fun or funny for my H. His FOW really put him on a pedestal, constantly stroked his ego....I didn't have a clue how to do that.

He really needed admiration and respect...I always thought that he had to do something admirable... It was really hard to learn new habits. I am not perfect at it, but I've improved. I've lost lots of the self-righteous pride I used to hold on to as well as most of my anger at the injustices all around.

Oh Pep, it seems that every step my WW took away from me in our M was a challenge for me to grab her wrist and pull her to me with a kiss and a boundary enforcement. And I just 'decently' supported her stepping out of the door into a prize [censored] arms. * sigh *

I can be quite decisive with most folks if situations dictate, but my W and kids...its like I patronise them by pretending to be really liberal when in fact I just fear conflict with those I love most. Being seen as a strict husband or Dad.

WWs sister was beaten by an abusive husband, and I helped deal with that mess years ago. I left the mess SWEARING I'd never be that person he was.

Trouble is while I have learned to direct my kids without force using humor, and tricks like 'earning stuff' like hikes and swimming sessons, I shied away from confrontation with my WW. ANY confrontation. Its clear now we have spoken that she WANTS to know boundaries. Maybe even this A was testing my invisible boundaries, I dunno.

Saddening but invaluable stuff from WWs heart. There have been many, but I won't share them. Just this one " it could've been anyone, not OM".

Was she REALLY so lonely in our M that she drove an A with a womanizing wastrel just to feel LOVED in a way she could recognise immediately? Dear God.... I have a lot of this bad pizza to eat. I hope I'm up to the job. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ September 09, 2004, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

I just fear conflict with those I love most.

Most of us do this too Bob... to some degree.

It's the relationships where we have the most to lose that we foolishly withdraw boundaries.

Pep

Pep/All, heres a bizarre and sad thing I just noticed as I was dusting our my brain of the last few days events ( WW is at her sisters house this evening).

Since Monday WW and I have been civil, thoughtful, intimate in discussion, revealing heart secrets to each other, discussing family matters very serious and less so using POJA and ( at least on my part ) Radical Honesty, doing things together like shopping and lunches, sharing till we cry in restaurants, made passionate urgent and very satisfying love when we needed to....our marriage has been better these days than it has been in three years apart from rare occasions.... How sad is that ?

And we aren't in recovery yet.

Dear God we let our marriage slip....we really did....

<small>[ September 09, 2004, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>