Plan B is used when the affair is still ongoing.... when the WS is torn with indecision...

I don't think Plan B is appropriate when the A is essentially "dead" and there is NC....

You need marriage/couples therapy .... right away.

Marriage therapy .... NOT Plan B.

IMHO

Pep

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Bob, her response and crying are all good "indicators." Progress, granted very slow progress, IS being made. You HAVE addressed the situation with the children, so I'd tell you to continue in plan A. It sounds like you made it clear to her that her behavior toward the 7 year old was inappropriate and unacceptable. THAT establishes a Boundary. Along with Boundaries come consequences if they are violated.

The rest of my response is tied into what I have to respond to Pepperband about her post.

Pepperband - you wrote:

Plan B is used when the affair is still ongoing.... when the WS is torn with indecision...

I don't think Plan B is appropriate when the A is essentially "dead" and there is no NC....

You need marriage/couples therapy .... right away.

Marriage therapy .... NOT Plan B.

I agree that marriage therapy IS required, but I also know from what Bob has written previously that two conditions remain that make "plan B" a valid option at this time.

1. His wife has streadfastly refused counseling as an option or as something that they "need."

2. His wife continues to wander around in the fog thinking that the OM is just "softening up" his GF so that he can leave her and be with Bob's wife. His WIFE is still in the affair, at least mentally.

Therefore, in her mind, the affair is not "dead." No contact has not been established, certainly not formally.

Her reaction to the 7 year old's bedtime request is typical behavior of someone still locked in the selfish fog of an affair. NO ONE else matters. Whether it is through her finally realizing how wrong her behavior has been through Bob's great application of Plan A, or through the harsh reality of Plan B, she needs to begin to see the reality of her actions and not the "fantasy" she is living in.

Bob has "all the facts" and knows the situation and the nuances and discussions best, so all we can do is to present options for him to consider and weigh against his full knowledge of how things have been proceeding. No one "likes" Plan B, but it IS an option when the WS just can't seem to break out of the affair fog or won't break out of it.

So I agree with you, Pepperband. What Bob and his wife really need is Joint Christian Marriage Counseling. The marriage needs to get refocused on Christ as the center and in their fulfilling of their God-given roles as husband and wife, and mother and father to their children.

Bob, this rollercoaster is draining and frustrating. I just want you to know that, IMHO, you are doing a great job. Continue to trust your instincts and to take decisions to the Lord. Weigh the advice of all us in the context of the full knowledge that only you have. Commit your "plans" to God and His will, and they WILL succeed.

God bless.

Evereybody is correct !! * head spinning ! *

The A is physically and mechanically dead. OM would fight off WW with an Amish rake if she showed up. He's given all his contact phones to his GF to answer first and reply.

It lives only in the dying hopes of my WW. As the realization that OM never had any intention whatsoever of doing anything other than sharing flattering lies and sex with OM she rages, cling sto the stable support of Karate and keeps me ( and the kids) at arms length. Withdrawal.

It is clear that WW was deadly serious about the commitment she made to OM. Lock stock and barrel.

Its going to take a long time if ever for her to get over the betrayal and the love she felt for him.


So when is an affair actually over ? When the sex stopped, that was D-day. When contact stopped ? That was 2 weeks ago. When NCL sent ? May never happen.


This is the centre of my concern right now. WW is trying to limp through a facsimile of the life we used to lead pre-A , not romantically loving me or showing me any affection for fear she may get used to it and admitted A is truly dead for ever.

WW WILL NOT do MC right now, if ever.

This is why I am awaiting a SIGN that she is committed AT ALL to our M. Right now, I think she is ACTIVELY TRYING NOT to recommit to me or our M so that she won't have to admit the A is dead, and OM was a betraying liar.

NCL, removal of crude triggers, less provocatively independant behaviour..ANYTHING.

If nothing by my Plan A review before November I dunno what to do. Should I assume the A is still a threat becauseW Ws dream of it is affecting our M recovery and so Plan B ?

Or should I recognise the A is dead and assume that whatever odd sadness is going on inside my W W is withdrawal, and it will take longer than for many folks owing to the earnestness of her commitment to OM ?

I asked OM GF if OM would write an NCL, or better tell WW by phone what he told OM GF, that it was flirting and flattery gone too far, fun that got WAY out of hand and became instantly not worth it when it was exposed , he regrets it enormously and never wanst to see her again. She said he wouldn't.

Its so frustrating that I can't even tell WW that as she'd never believe me...infact she'd think OM was coerced even if HE told her such is the fog.

I just dunno what to do but be patient these few more weeks and see how WW changes. She has come so far this last 2 weeks since OM went dark, Harley says withdrawal pangs get easier after a month or so.

Early days. Plan A type behaviour still seems appropriate for now. Next week I may discuss a reasessemt of WWs commitment to the M (this talk previously dragged WW out of the fog last week remember) but nothing now.

I hope for another 40 years together, a few weeks patience can't hurt can it ?

I worry about the lack of pro marriage counseeling on the UK. I may have to do some time-zone fone stuff with Penny or the Harleys...

Thoughts appreciated...is the affair still a threat although its dead ?

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thoughts appreciated...is the affair still a threat although its dead ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, without a marriage centered in Christ and a willing submission of your wills to God's will, following Him in humble obedience, yes, the threat remains.

Right now your wife continues to act with herself enthroned as "lord of her life," answerable to no one but herself and whatever she desires. There is no "independent" measure of "right and wrong," there is only what she wants.

So WHO's standards will be embraced?

Again, it's why I keep going back to the need for her to confess and repent to God first. She "accepted" Christ in the past, but is now "backslidden." The only way to "right the ship" and chart a course to avoid future damaging shoals is to let God be the guide and navigator. The "next island" might appear enticing, but God KNOWS where the dangerous waters are and how to get you both to the "promised land" of a better and more loving marriage that He intends for you to have.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


WW WILL NOT do MC right now, if ever.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's my suggestion... find yourself a great counseling therapy person .... set up weekly or bi-weekly visits.... and inform WW that she will need to plan to be at home that day (or those evenings) to be with the kids, because Bob is going to therapy.

Tell her this is a priority for you, and any plans she's made (Karate) that fall on "Bob's therapy time " need to be recheduled.

Do not take "No" for an answer....

You stick to your decision to go to therapy BY YOURSELF while she watches the kids. No babysitter.

Tell her:

"I need therapy so I don't fall apart."

Tell her:

"The kids need time with their Mom so they don't fall apart."

POJA this a little .... ask her which 2 nights would be better for her to stay with the kids while you get help that you need.

Should be an interesting POJA conversation.

Timing is everything when you decide to have the conversation, be sure that there is not a more pressing issue at hand.... and stick to the subject.

The issue is .... sharing responsibility for taking care of the kids. The subject is the timetable to be worked out so Bob can get therapy.

Often, once the BS begins therapy alone .... the WS gets curious about the process.... and may decide to join.

Bob.... YOU need to get out of the house and WW needs to stay home and mother.

Pep

Bob:

Ask Pep what she did! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Maybe ask the OMGF 2 bring OM 2 some outdoor cafe with lots of room and no glassware or metallic utensils in sight, meet them there with your W in tow, and make them apologize 2 the 2 of you for their behavior...

Either lay it all out on the table like that, or work 2ward an NC letter that is BY THE BOOK from you and your W 2 OM, after which you sever ALL contact with both of them until protons start 2 decay in significant numbers (~10^30 years, if I remember correctly).

-ol' 2long

2ble

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

* FH, fully agree. Not having God at the centre of our marriage for a number of years PRIOR to the A was a contributor to it. Right now though I don't know what WWs condition is with God. She joins in Grace, which is said at every meal in our house, but that could be rote. I have said that I hope she prays and get sher soul right with God as thats a major worry of mine.

I think the trouble is Affairs are just about the most secular, least spritual things imaginable - maybe even demonic - God is one of the first things set aside cheerfully to enable them to enjoy the affair. I am praying for her and my own faith every day.

* Pep there are no pro marriage counsellors in the UK. None. Nada . Zip. If there are they don't advertise Anywhere.

Also Karate is Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday night. Anything I arrange on those nights will be received as being deeply provocative. In any case she'll just take the kids and make 'em sit and watch, bored out of their minds. She's done it lots of times. WW is obsessed by, maybe POSSessed by Karate.

Karate is the main thing that will stop us recovering our M if indeed we don't. I love her but will NOT go back to being karate widower.

So, I'm screwed for other than Prayer and patience. Still, thats worked pretty good so far <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

* 2long, OM GF suggested that we arrange a 4-some meet at a karate competition one day. I couldn't agree to that now, I wish OM too much ill, I may kill him if I see him and that leaves my kids and OM GFs son completely screwed. * no 2x4s please, I'm being honest, I know its not nice or healthy *

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


Also Karate is Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday night. Anything I arrange on those nights will be received as being deeply provocative.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And soooo

it is time to stop this madness ...

there is Karate madness in your home ..... put barriers up to stop the madness....

I really believe you cannot recover your M unless you fight for it....

and being "provocative" is a bad thing because....?

I think this Karate situation should have been "provoked" a looooong time ago!

BOB.... are you wearing a Batman costume and standing out on a balcony at Buckingham Palace at the moment???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

pep I said all this stuff loads of times on here.

I did not confront hard enough while WW built herself an entirely seperate social life in Karate. Then she felt lonely there and found her self a man there.

Karate is the real OP in this affair and I am not sure - never have been sure- that I can win against it.

WW has NEVER been happy with motherhood, and all this was compounded by her hitting forty in March. She THREW herself into Karate, lost weight, bought teen clothes and music, did even MORE karate with reffing, met OM...and her life would've been marvellous for her had I not discovered the A then as she could talk about and do nothing but fricking karate ever again ( OM was exactly the same according to OM GF).

On D-day I said this and she told me " I knew our M was falling apart but I chose notto work on it". Fog ? maybe not....

Right now she loves karate more than me & the kids. Its all she talks about. Shes a "queen" in Karate world, but 'only' a mum & beloved wife at home.

I always said even if we got past the A, rebuilding might be impossible.

Now then, I have prayed a LOT over this and so has Gimble and his wife and things HAVE started to change. The Kids have started convicting her of all the time she spends away from them, WW & I POJAed for me to help set up the tourney so we could have a family night on Saturday, she says she will ask her head coach to make others in the club share responsibility for running it it won't be so onerous one the few committed.
Small stuff but she IS sort of recognising that Karate is a problem.

I cannot pretend to know how my WWs head is working right now BUT I think she has thrown herself intoi Karate PRE-A so she could see OM, SINCE the A its the only place where no-one knows about the affair so she gets respite from accusing looks, real or imagined. She knows shes hurting the kids over this, and she knows shes hurting me over this but she really is the most stubborn woman on earth.

This is why I think patience may work for a short while. Let Gods small effects work through her dough.Then, one day if/when this days ofrevelation arroives when WW remmbers Its not so bad being married to me, and she recovers a desire to work on the M (Harleys predict it in time) we can have discussions about reprioritising both my work AND her Karate in a spirit of mutual reconciliation.

I do not FEAR a confrontation over this now pep but if the KIDS CRYING over Karate isn't working, my forthrightness won't. Not now.

See what I've been trying to say now?

Bob:

"I did not confront hard enough while WW built herself an entirely seperate social life in Karate. Then she felt lonely there and found her self a man there."

Remember my story about the telescopes? Same deal, only I didn't have the A in our sitch. But it still IS the same thing. I felt unhappy, thought my hobby would make me happy if I did more of it, 2uickly found that wasn't where it came from. After D-day (and a year hiatus) I resumed my hobby, but NEVER 2 the exclusion of my time with my W and kids.

Your W needs 2 realize that it isn't turning a certain age (geez, WHAT'S 40??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), spending time at karate, and certainly not seeking an EMA that will be the source of her happiness, if she finds it again. It'll be with her family and within herself. PERIOD.

She needs 2 cut back. The time she's spending maybe appropriate for a single teenager Olympic hopeful, but not for a M'd mother of 2. ...and a 40-yr old committed M'd mother of 2 is a beautiful thing 2 behold, if you ask ol' 2long's opinion.

-ol' 2long
P.S. And hey? What you got against spiri2al atheists? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

2l I completely agree re: time spent at Karate, but how to h3ll to change her mind right now ? I think she needs to be in Withdrawal for longer, more receptive and appreciative of what she nearly threw away before I have those chats...

Dear Bob,

if your W craves admiration then people telling her "she's not ok" will make her run. If not in person, then mentally and emotionally. She needs appreciation for who she is. I'm pretty sure she'll respond if you (and the kids) give her something positive to work on, instead of kicking her butt <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

After all she has done that might seem unfair to you and the kids - but she is much, much more than this regressed-to-sulking-puppy stage that she has shown you for a few weeks. Anything to make the real her come back is a great investment - IMHO.

BH I've lived with this for years, Its far more complicated than that. WW has never really been happy in the role of mother & wife IMO.
Karate make sher feel like a "sex and the city" independent, superfit young girl who never does laundry, cooks dinner etc etc.

Its very complicated and personal. And broken. Very broken.

Do they have Bowflex ads in the UK?

They drive me nuts, but the upshot is that she could have that girlish figure by working out in her own home, where the admiring glances she'll get will be entirely appropriate.

...and she'll have more time 2 work on the important things - like her emotional health.

2dles,
-ol' 2long

..and after all that, tonite WW half heartedly but of her own free will hid the OM CD trigger and another one I won't go into.

I said nothing to make her do it , she did it of her own volition. A small start but a teeny finger raised in a gesture of care for me.

THAT'S what I've been waiting for !!! My patience bank has had an injection now.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob,

You being a karate widower sounds so familiar. I have almost the same story as yours, just different details.

As my wife dedicated herself to her career, DS and I were left behind. 90% of her identity has been in her job. It is a very interesting position with lots of international travel (the A started in Indonesia, even). As she progressed up the corporate ladder she moved away from old friends, family, even God.

As this happened, I took up the slack at home becoming Mr. Mom. 90% of my identity eventually went into our M and family.

She admits this is what went on now. She said she often thought she was outgrowing me. I no longer fit her executive lifestyle. This used to be what philandering executives said about their wives when they started looking for a trophy wife. Gender equality all around, huh.

On the positive side, she now is making plans to quit. Go to grad school or find a new position with no possibility of contact with OM. And she is focusing on us, at last.

I hope your situation works out too. Don’t give up. Keep praying and you will be answered. (And pray that these changes stick.)

T

Thos, the lead up to my WWs A was sadly just as common, repeated and predictable as the affair progress has been. I only hope and pray that recovery will also be indicated to a stronger M than ever in our case AND yours ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Nice lunch with WW ( Thai, as it happens! ). Good discussion. A is dead now even in WWs mind and hopes.

When does a WW become a FWW ?

I would think she becomes a FWW when she is truly remorseful, repentant, asks forgiveness, and wants to commit to rebuilding your M.

Without the above, I would think she still has one foot out the door, is looking for a replacement OM, or is just wanting to stay married singles in an unhappy 'marriage' indefinitely and feeling sorry for herself.