Some background information and then my question.

After d-day, FWH and I started MC. MC stressed honesty and full disclosure of the A’s. FWH agreed. After going to 2 – 3 months of MC I learned FWH was still lying about the last A. I learned this by finally notifying OW’s H about the A and he filled me in on a whole bunch of information that FWH left out. Once I found that out, I asked FWH to move out. I was not about to stay M’d to someone that I now knew was untrustworthy and would rather lie to me to protect himself, OW or A secrets. We were separated 6 weeks while I decided if I wanted to stay in our M and continue MC. During those 6 weeks, I continued on with IC and also created a list of what I needed to continue with MC. They were:

1) Complete honesty about our past, present and, of course, our future.
2) Complete disclosure of the A’s.
3) See an addictions counselor and/or IC.
4) Read HNHN, NJF and SAA or any other infidelity and/or relationship book that would help us restore our M.
5)Establish/Follow personal boundaries (no lunches/dinners alone with people of the opposite sex, no personal conversations, flirting, etc. with the opposite sex, etc.)

Not only did I learn of another A on 6/20/03, but I also learned that the OW was the same OW that FWH had a PA with in his first M and FWH had another EA with her almost our entire history together. It went PA again in 12/02.

I was prepared for FWH to say he wouldn’t do it. Much to my surprise, he agreed. Went to an addictions counselor, which led him to AA and we began discussions of our past and present. We both continued with IC and MC.

We rode the roller coaster to today. Since the one-year d-day anniversary, our lives have calmed down and we can communicate better…most of the time.

I have been with FWH for about eight years, M’d for four. Now knowing there was an EA going on during most of our R (plus another Internet A thrown in there also – different OW), I have questions that come up from time to time. It’s shocking to learn that your H was leading a double life the entire time you were with him.

Well, H has decided he has had it. His anger came out big time about a week or so ago. He screamed and yelled. Said he does not want to talk about our past or the A’s anymore. He says he feels like I talk about it all the time. It may seem like this to FWH since he doesn’t like to talk about it however, we may go 2 – 3 weeks before I ask a question or two. It would be nice to have H just volunteer some information occasionally. When I learn something new, I ask H why he didn’t tell me before. He claims it’s because it just isn’t important.

Anyway, this blow up of H’s led him back to his IC. He told her that he was stuck and wanted to make it to the next level of communication with me. He mentioned to his IC that whenever I bring up the A’s or our past, he feels guilty, ashamed, and like a low-life loser. He hates feeling like that so he doesn’t want to talk about it anymore.

His IC said that he needed to establish a boundary and tell sss that talking about the A’s makes him feel uncomfortable, so he’s not going to talk about it anymore.

I have to give FWH some credit; he did tell IC that he wasn’t sure if that was the right way to handle it. IC told him to stand firm and just tell sss that any A or past talk is over!

How would you handle something like this?

Thanks.

sss

<small>[ September 06, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>

SSS - I can't offer you specific advice on this, but I want to offer you support and a BIG HUG {{{{{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}}}}}}.
My situation is slightly different, but I would like to say that IMHO it's his actions that are making him feel bad about having, lied, cheated, and generally been disrespectful to you through all of your marriage(not yours). He probably should have thought about the ramifications before. It's understandable that you feel like you need to hear the whole gory story, as you feel like it will give you some sense of understanding and help you to rebuild trust. Others will give you more specific advice, but I think if it's important to you to hear the truth then that needs consideration from all parties. I would like to say that if he does open up and tell you everything that you should not use it to beat him up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stillsosad:
<strong>
I have to give FWH some credit; he did tell IC that he wasn’t sure if that was the right way to handle it. IC told him to stand firm and just tell sss that any A or past talk is over!

How would you handle something like this?

Thanks.

sss </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, you asked, so I will tell you. If my H told me I was not allowed to ask questions about my life - facts which had been wrongfully withheld from me - I would say sayonora.

You are trying to put together the pieces of YOUR LIFE only because he has lied to you for years. This is not some private information that only he should know about - this is about your life! Part of recovery is putting together the peices that have been wrongfully withheld from you.

And he dares complain that this is "uncomfortable" for him?? huh? What about your feelings?

You have experienced the greatest betrayal a spouse can commit. He has essentially ROBBED you of your life and he is whining because it is "uncomfortable?" Please. Your trauma at being betrayed far outweighs his "discomfort."

SSS, if you want to recover, you must know the facts about your life. If he refuses to repair the damage he caused, then it is hopeless.

It is bad enough that you have to drag every drib and drab out, which sets you back to D-Day every time you discover some new piece of the puzzle that was withheld. That is like dying a death of a thousand cuts. Every new tidbit puts you back to DAY ONE.

If he wants his marriage to recover, he needs to face it like a MAN and get it ALL OUT and stop this nonsense. If not, I would consider just moving on, SSS, because you can't possibly recover until you can put all the pieces together.

Telling you the TRUTH is the LEAST he can do if you are willing to stay with him.

I think if it were me I would take the IC's advice and let it go.

Your husband is in AA and IC, this is sooo wonderful. You have so much to hope for in this marriage now. I would let the A talk just go, maybe someday he will be able to tell you all of his untruths and everything you want to know, but maybe he just has too much on his plate right now.

Maybe you could ask him to write you a letter someday answering all your questions, but this probably is not the time.

I know how great a betrayal this would be, your entire marriage... It is more than most people could bear or overcome, but you can, look how far you have come.

Just let it go for now, try to see his good, his love, his remorse and willingness to change. It really is a miracle that he has even come this far, so many don't.

Weaver

Print this out and hand it to your C and your H:

http://www.dearpeggy.com/com023.html

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Well I just read Mel's advice and it gave me an idea -

How about if you and he sit down one night and you ask all the questions you need answers to. Even write the questions out before hand so he won't be put on the spot.

You then sit down all night if that is what it takes and get it all out -

You tell him that then you will have all the pieces and you will let it be in the past.

weaver, I think thats a good idea and it needs to happen, but she also needs to be able to ask more questions if they come up.

I suspect the REAL REASON this has dragged on so long is because he has not been forthcoming so she has had to drag every piece out of him in dribs and drabs and can never quite get the whole picture because he is still hiding.

The solution is to practice some radical honesty and tell her the WHOLE story. Then this would probably finally be over and they could both recover and move forward.

However, telling her to SHUT THE FU** UP solves nothing and is only adding insult to injury.

P.S. part of his recovery program in AA is to tell the truth and make amends to his victims, so this step would help him and help his marriage.

SSS,

No one can tell you what to do or how to feel about what you're going through. Only you. But, the way I understand your post it's been over a year since D-day and you're upset when you ask for more details and he tells them to you. You're upset because he should tell you before you ask?

It's human nature to avoid conflict. If the issue had been peaceful for several months and he was driving by a hotel he happened to have met the OW at, would you prefer him look at you out of the blue and say, "Hun, that's the hotel we met at one time." I got news for you... that would take you back to day 1 just as fast. In his heart he is thinking, "Crap, that's the hotel...I'm glad it's over." He's also weighing out the risk/consequence of telling you and setting you back to day 1. "It's not that important." He's thinking. Then in a conversation you ask about "where" and he tells. Bam. Day 1. We call this Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If you want honesty then make it safe or you just punish the honesty and encourage lying.

Also, at some point (Only you know when) you have to let go of the past and move on toward the future. A future together. You will need forgiveness to do that or else the unforgiveness will impede restoration. You will never forget, but unless the A is still going on, maybe it's time to forgive...

2scared

SSS -

I thought about this alot last night, it is a very tough place to be for you.

Can you send your questions to Penny Tuppy and see what she says? Or one of the Harley's? You two have been in recovery for a year and this road block needs to be addressed, as Melody says you need to have your answers, and he needs to be able to move on. His recovery in AA also depends on moving through the steps, and one of them is honesty and making amends.

You have come too far to be stopped in your tracks now, or to have your recovery hindered.

I would most definately print "Josephs Letter" and give it to him to read, as well as his IC.
Is the IC pro-marriage?

Weaver

Weaver

Thanks to all of you for your input.

ML - you are correct in that I have learned about my marital history and A's in dribs and drabs. It's always my fault because I *don't ask questions in just the right way*. I told H from the beginning that I just wanna know what he knows. I want full disclosure of the A's (minus sex stuff) and I want to know what was going on during our relationship.

I feel stronger now. I am able to talk about this stuff without a lot of anxiety, without crying, without hysterics, without LBing. We've both been working hard on communication and it seems that we should be able to talk about this stuff easier now than before.

H has his favorite *statement* that he makes during every A/history talk. He can't change the past. It's always going to be there. If he could change it he would, but he can't. So let it go...?

Well, I can make that statement also. It is there and will never change. So, I would like to understand it as much as possible. I didn't ask enough questions (obviously) during the 1st 8 years of our R, I just blindly trusted H. So, I would like to ask some of those questions now.

Although I'm stronger, I'm still left with the feeling *where was I?*. It's a scary feeling to think you've lived one life with your partner, but in reality something different was going on.

Also - H did read Joseph's letter very early on recovery. Maybe I can bring it out again for H to reread.

weaver - Thanks for the suggestion. I actually had to laugh a little...we've already been through three of these *get it all out* conversations. H has told me some different versions of the A story, so I'd like to just know once and for all what the truth is.

2scared - Yes, it's been almost 15 months since d-day. On one hand I feel that it's ridculous that we are still discussing A or marital history this much later. But on the other hand, how quickly do you work through 8 years of a relationship that wasn't what it seemed? Also missing from my original post is that H really didn't start coming around with honesty and A disclosure until about 7 - 8 months past d-day. In the early stages of recovery, AA and IC H just wasn't that responsive to my/our healing since he was working so hard on himself.

I'm not upset that H doesn't tell me things before I ask, just that he doesn't volunteer information when I do ask. As I posted to ML above, H is giving me the *you didn't ask me that question or word it in the right way*.

Just as an example, I asked H if he went out to dinner with the last OW alone. He said no. Guess what? Found out he did. He response? Well, they went out to a restaurant together, but he didn't eat, (just drank) plus she paid for everything.

Or, imagine that I just learned in the last 3 weeks that OW took vacation days from work during my H's last business trip. She sat there with her cell phone waiting for H to call her anytime he had a few minutes to spare or a couple of hours for SF. I never knew about the vacation days until 3 weeks ago. Why? Because H said I never asked if OW took any vacation days. Why/how would I think to ask that? I asked H why he never told me about the vacations days before when we talked about his last business trip. H said 'because I didn't think it was important'.

This may seem like picky stuff to some of you or all of you. But, I've said from the beginning that I just want to know what H knows. I want to know what H was feeling during the first 8 years of our R. I want to know what was really going on in my life then. I just want to know. How can you move forward with a good, positive, healthy R if you don't understand what happened in the past.

I guess I view this last IC session and stating *I don't want to talk about it anymore because it makes me feel bad* as a problem. H has known since 11/03 what I needed to continue MC and stay in our M. I would hate to see it all fall apart now after we've both worked so hard.

We just left it that H is going to discuss it more with his IC during his session this week. I thought his IC was pro-marriage but she is an addictions specialist. Maybe she offers a different approach?

Thanks.

sss

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>

^

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stillsosad:
<strong>
We just left it that H is going to discuss it more with his IC during his session this week. I thought his IC was pro-marriage but she is an addictions specialist. Maybe she offers a different approach?

Thanks.

sss </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SSS, I am "addiction specialist" [a.s.s.] also. I specialized in my alcohol addiction for numerous years and have been in recovery, fully sober, for 19 years, 4 months and 10 days.

So as a fully qualified a.s.s., [and believe me, I am qualified! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ] just like your H's counselor, I am also a former professional bull**** artist just like your H. As such, I can recognize b.s. when I see it. And I am here to tell you that it does NO ONE any good, especially you, for him to withhold the truth from you about your life. He owes you the truth, plain and simple.

It HARMS him to skate out of being honest simply because he wants to escape the consequences. His recovery is all about FACING the consequences, not running from them.

So tell this a.s.s. that MelodyLane, an experienced fellow a.s.s., says that nothing short of the ENTIRE UNADULTERATED TRUTH will suffice.

If she would like to justify her rationale, please tell her to get her a.s.s. over here and explain to me how your H, supposedly recovering and learning how to be a MAN, is somehow entitled to continue in his cruelty to his wife. I would like to see how she justifies destroying you so her client doesn't feel "uncomfortable."

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

ML, Here's an update:

H went to IC again last night and talked to the IC about her boundary suggestion. Told IC he came back to her to work on communication and learn to do a better job of talking to me about the A's/past/other things.

IC said it wasn't healthy for him to talk about it if it makes him feel all the bad things he feels. She asked him "what do you want me to do for you?” H said he wanted help on communicating without feeling so bad about it. IC said impossible. You can't just erase emotions and feelings. That H has a choice to make...he can set the boundary with me, heal and feel better/be healthy or he can continue letting me ask questions and not heal and feel bad. His choice. She also suggested that if he was going to continue talking to me about the A/past/other things that maybe he needs to set a time limit. That after such and such a date, there will be no more discussions.

I told H that I posted this question on MB. OMG, that was the wrong thing to say. Told him about the responses I got. Of course, H says, "who do those people think they are that they can judge me? They don't even know me.” Blah, Blah, Blah. I said why don't you just read the book NJF and see how you feel then. It's a really good book, explains BS/WS feelings, suggests how to handle feelings, discussions, communication, moving forward, healing together, etc. He said it seems that MB is my life and that I'm like....brainwashed or something. That MB doesn't have all the answers. Everyone is different, etc.

I forgot! H is special. H is unique. Regular rules, guidelines, and recovery plans don’t apply to him. He’s not like everybody else or anyone else. Duh! Stupid me.

His comments about MB got me...so I tossed NJF on the bed, opened up the nightstand that holds my stash of infidelity, relationship, forgiving, toxic shame, childhood wound books and one by one threw all of the A books on the bed (minus MB books). Look H, different authors that have absolutely nothing to do with MB but guess what? They all SAY the SAME THING. For both parties to heal, especially the BS, you have to TALK ABOUT IT! H says...well, I don't even know what a BS is. Cute.

Then I asked him what he wanted from me. To just pretend the A's didn't happen? Just pretend that, what, we have no past? Just pretend that everything is okay?

H said, "you can't give me what I want." I said oh, well, what is it that I can't give you? H said, "I want you to forgive me. I want your forgiveness and I don't think I'll ever get that." I just cried. I asked H "So you want just *blanket* forgiveness. That I forgive you for everything you've done to hurt me even if I don't know all the things you've done to hurt me?"

So, I guess this addictions specialist IC is saying that it's okay to not talk about stuff if you feel bad. Unreal. She's a recovering alcoholic herself, has been in AA for years so WTH? H told her I was uncomfortable about her suggestion for this boundary, that she’s not MC but an addictions IC instead. IC said, well, you could tell sss that I studied and practiced MC for two years so I am qualified for MC. I wonder what her success rate is?

So, I asked H what happens if something comes up in the future that *makes him feel bad* while talking about it, does that mean he has another new boundary. Another addition to his boundary list? That in 10 years, H has a long list of things I can't talk to him about? He just said that he hasn't made up his mind about setting any boundaries so he couldn't answer my question. Jeez...there's something new, H can't answer my question.

Isn’t this how our R/M got to such a bad place in the first place. Um, yeah!

Am I missing something here? Could this be an IC tactic where the individual is supposed to come around on their own? Are these trick suggestions?

Do I sound effing crazy?

sss

<small>[ September 09, 2004, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>

SSS, this IC is a very BAD influence on your H and is not teaching him the principles of the program, much less helping your marriage. She would make a terrible sponsor and I am ashamed for her. She doesn't sound like a qualified marriage counselor either.

I don't know what to tell you because you certainly can't force him to quit seeing her.

And I know why he wants to see her, because she is telling him what he WANTS to hear, rather than what he needs to hear. So, of course he will want to stay with her because she will support him in his irreponsibility.

I wish I could help you, SSS, but there is nothing I can say that can help if he and IC simply don't care about the recovery of your marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

ML - I know what you are saying. It's so frustrating to sit back and watch...especially when it's going to affect MY life as well. It's like watching a train wreck and not being able to stop it.

H is reading NJF now. Made it to the 2nd chapter. H did comment after reading the first chapter that it sounds like his IC is giving him the wrong advice. I've got my fingers crossed that as he reads the book and (hopefully) finishes it, he'll understand where we are at.

You know, he's worked very hard on everything else...in AA, being accountable, NC with OW's, loving, caring, communicates a little better now, shares more feelings, thoughts, etc., so if we can just get past this last (BIG) thing, I think we could make it.

Why would he be so worried about being 'judged'? He says that all of the time. 'How dare so and so judge me.' I don't get it. Is it because he's an 8 (stillwed's enneagram)? Is it carryover from his childhood wounds? Is it due to his alcoholism? It's like he can't take or hear suggestions, opinions, advice, information because he immediately trys to turn it back to someone 'judging him'.

Back in February he got an AA sponsor. His sponsor has been sober for 20 years. They clicked immediately. H told sponsor what was going on with us (A's, MC) and sponsor told him that he needs to talk to me, answer my questions, fill in the blanks, etc. H was a little more willing to talk about A's then...in fact, that's when I learned the most information. I don't know if sponsor wasn't practicing what he was preaching or what, but sponsor and wife separated. When that happened, he told H to find a co-sponsor because he wasn't sure how long he was going to be around. Sponsor and W ended up getting D'd in June and sponsor just kind of flaked out. Rarely returned H's phone calls (thank goodness he had a co-sponsor set up). H just found out that sponsor left town (from another AA member) and moved a state away. He didn't call H to tell him. Didn't return H's last phone call. H has made the statement...sponsor got a D so talking about it must not work. Well, H does not know sponsor's story so there could have been (and probably were) other issues prior to D. I think H was affected by sponsor up and leaving without telling him, but H says not. *sigh*

I guess we'll see how it goes. I'll give him some time to get through the book and see what he thinks. I just don't think I can stay in this M if there's going to be ongoing A secrets. I've been lied to for so long, I've been in the dark for so long...I think I need to know the truth. I need to talk about it.

H keeps asking 'when will this ever end?' Asked him how he could expect to see an 'ending' if we can't even get started?

Thanks for your input.

sss

Sponsor finally called him back. Maybe that will help.

Any comments to the update? Should I just let him get through the book and see how he reacts?

Have a good weekend everyone.

sss

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stillsosad:
<strong>
Why would he be so worried about being 'judged'? He says that all of the time. 'How dare so and so judge me.' I don't get it. Is it because he's an 8 (stillwed's enneagram)? Is it carryover from his childhood wounds? Is it due to his alcoholism? It's like he can't take or hear suggestions, opinions, advice, information because he immediately trys to turn it back to someone 'judging him'.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's because he IS guilty, which makes judgement SOOO painful. And now he doesn't have the booze to help hide from the truth. Reality is a very ugly thing when you have been living in Alice in Wonderland for years.

SSS, when you have been sooo bad for soooo long you get into the habit of drinking away the pain that comes from the realization of how bad you really are. Booze allows us to hide from the truth, so when the booze is removed, it is a HUGE SHOCK from which we have no refuge. And our minds usually can't handle it all in one blow, we have to gradually allow bits of reality to seep in in order to accept the truth.

I cannot express to you the very deep pain that comes from looking at oneself honestly in the mirror after years of lies. It is not pretty.

And unless he is constitutionally incapable of being honest with himself, he will become his harshest judge, SSS. You won't have to judge him. But if you try to judge him now, you will just force him to defend himself. And if he is busy defending himself, he can't clearly evaluate himself. So give him time in this regard, and let HIM become the judge of himself. He will come around.

<small>[ September 10, 2004, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>