sorry for the confusion.

I did send the long letter to my WW letting her know about the voicemails I heard. I'd been holding that in for three months. Are you saying I should not have sent that letter?

My WW sent me back the one line text message today. I have not responded yet.


I agree with you, I probably am pushing too much with day to day stuff. Trying to engage with her. I don't want to but it is hard not to.


Now the big question. Based upon the conversation I had with my the OM's ex-W last night, do I send the following to my WW? I'm really scared for her safety.

Help!


Dear L,

I write this note as your friend. I still consider you my best friend. I’m scared for you, my stomach keeps rolling over because I think you may be vulnerable. I will not sleep (again) tonight with this letter in transit. I know in my heart it is the right thing to do. I will protect you first, and worry about our marriage second.

I spoke to J's ex-wife on Sunday. Her name is KN and she lives in CA with the two boys. She can be reached at (home) and (mobile).

She has offered to drive up to meet you while you are out in California and warn you about J’s past and present.

Here are some of the items she told me:
· When they were dating and K was a pharmacist he used to wait in the grocery store and read a book or magazine in the aisle and wait for her to finish her shift
· They were married for 14 years.
· During their marriage Jack had 4 affairs – 2 while they lived in Spain.
· There are approximately 10 instances where J physically abused K (pushing, shoving, or slapping)
· 7 years ago J announced an affair, but found the Lord and got into religion
· He is Episcopal and does not think highly of Catholics and the Catholic religion
· His 4th affair ended their marriage, that was with TF. He announced that on Christmas Day 2 years ago when he was moving to D.C.
· He moved from CA to D.C. with T, they shared a storage unit before the move.
· T is J’s current girlfriend and she lives in CA, that is where J stays when he goes back to see the boys.
· T is a contractor and just recently graduated from grad school and moved back to CA 1 month ago.
· T & J went to the high school football game together two weeks ago to watch J's son play
· He sent you the text message from T’s house
· J no longer will sleep at T’s house when J is in town.
· J and T have tickets to a play this weekend in CA
· He is on the outs with his family since the divorce. His parents are supportive of K, not him.

I have no idea if you know any of this or not, nor do I know if it matters to you. I am scared for you and I do not want to see you hurt any more. I am sorry you are hurting now.

Love always,
TD

No, don’t send it.
It will only drive her further away and further into his arms.
After all, she will ,ONLY see it as you , the jealous husband stirring up the pot, regardless of his past.

I thought that was the point of the exposure, etc. Drive them together, but have them deal with the real world, not their fantasy world?

Exposure is done to people who friends/family who do not know what is going on. You wife & the om already know they are having an affair.
You don't need to expose the affair to the poeple involved in the affair.

As I said, even if she were to remotely believe you, she would simply think you are ONLY doing it to cause trouble, not because you are concerned for her.
Also, she would say, "he's different now. He has changed."

okay, I've got the exposure letters ready for her family. I plan on sending them out next week.

I have found out a ton of information about the OM and his relationship with my WW in the last 3 days. I have heard new voice mails she has left him, pictures of them together, etc. Also found out what a a-hole he is and how he abuses women, his job and power and sex.

So, thanks to this site I've been able to take my emotion out of what I've learned. To hear my WW say "I love you" to him hurts, but you all have helped me realize anything she says or does is part of the FOG. And that if I am truly committed to this marriage and to Plan A, I cannot get emotional about what I hear or see.

Also, the more I learn about him the more my own self-esteem increases. The natural reaction is to think the OM is wonderful, everything you are not, and maybe really is the greatest guy ever. After what I learned it makes me feel good to know that I am not crazy, that I am a good guy, and that I am better than he will ever be.

<small>[ September 29, 2004, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: TDVA ]</small>

Update and my latest questions.

WW comes home from West Coast trip tomorrow night. I have not really spoken to her since she read the note in her suitcase where I told her I heard the voicemails from OM. She has been lying to my face and I finally confronted her and burst her bubble a little bit.

I am trying to shift the control to me and the anxiety to her. Spoke to her sister and she said she left her a voice mail and sounded very down and said she was having a hard time sleeping on her trip.

So here is my question-

WW comes home tomorrow night. Do I engage in any conversation about my note? Do I ask her if she wants to talk? Or do I just keep doing the best Plan A I can and welcome her home with open arms and not even bring it up?

If she does want to talk, I must be ready for reverse-babble!!

Help!

Okay, so WW surprised me and took red-eye flight home. Her sister said she talked to her yesterday and she did say she was down and blah.

So do I just see her tonight and welcome her home? Plan A all the way?

Or do I confront her with the fact the OM has a girlfriend on west coast to see if she knows?

I believe Plan A is the way to go. Let her feel the anxiety for a while. I feel better about myself. Enjoy the evening with her and the kids, etc.

My friends who are not familiar with MB think I should confront her with the new information I have.

HELP!

TDVA, I have TONS of stuff on OM. I never said a word to FWW, other than dropping the occasional bomb at appropriate times.

PLEASE try to understand that your WW is not capable of believing anything bad about OM right now. NOT ABLE. You could show her certified footage of him humping a goat in Times Square and she wouldn't believe it.

Personally, I wouldn't tell her until I was sure she was in a place where she could believe it.

Wiser heads than I should advise you here though. All I know is plan A , including recognizing the mental limitations of fogged up folks, got my baby back for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

All blessings.

Well, not the update I'd like to give.

Last night WW found out I spoke to OM's ex-W. She was furious. Attacked me like never before. I've never seen so much anger in someone.

Said I was evil for telling her I love her and I want to work it out and then doing things behind her back to find out what is going on. I was not a man because I didn't confront her, I was sick because I said I still love her. I am not a good dad, etc. I know it was all babble.

My problem is I historically don't get mad and upset and yell and scream, so my WW thinks I don't show my emotions properly.

My problem is that while doing Plan A, that has really been more of the same. Me showing love to my wife no matter what she's done. She claims I should be angry and expects me to be mad, not to do what I did and tell her I love her, etc.

So I waited a few minutes and went back in the bedroom and we spoke. Said she hated me as much as possible, was going to get a separation agreement as soon as possible.

Overall I was pretty good at not being too emotional. I did throw a few LB's in there and she baited me into talking about OM. I couldn't help it!

Anyway, I think my Plan A is failing on its feet. I have little to no hope right now, and even if my wife doesn't go with OM, I think she has written us off because of my behavior.

I know it is babble, but it still hurts. I am very down today.

No way is it falling on its face!

You exposed to the OM's x-wife. Exposure is one of the things that the WS fears most...just wait til she finds uve exposed to otehr people!!!

No matter what your reaction was it would have been wrong. You cannot do right whilst your wife is in teh fog..... Just keep your head down and keep PlanAing...

Hugs! hang on in there!!!!

now she claims she cannot trust me.

it is so ironic and scary

TD

ITs all fule for the A fire. My ww does the same thing. Whatever little thing will get her angry and justify everything to herself....

I feel like plan A is failing as well....i just keep detaching and focusing on the kids.

dont know how much more i can take.....

TDVA, though I can't offer any useful advise, I think I have exactly the same feeling as you right now. After I have exposed to WW workplace 2 days ago, she claimed that I cannot be trust, very angry, hate me, moving out to OM immediately.
I feel that all my plan A effort are gone, but still has the gut feeling that exposure is something that I should do. WW hasn't contact me or DS for these 3 days, I've just called her to ask how she is, she sounds very cold and distant, still deep in the fog.

Interesting update.

After the big blow up Friday night we had a fairly normal day on Saturday. Saturday night I decided to let my WW know how much she hurt me Friday night.

I was not angry, however I did get a little emotional.

I told her what she said to me on Friday was the most hurtful words I could imagine. That she was not only hurting me with her actions outside the house, but also with the things she is saying inside the house to my face.

Anyway, we had a pretty good conversation and I got a good idea how my WW feels about everything. Here are the highlights. Some FOG, some real---

--After the first A 4 years ago she feels we should have cherished each other and never got to the same point again. The fact we did means we can't work together


--She is scared to settle down with me. No new house, kids or job to keep things going. Only thing left is to work on our relationship, which she feels like she's been doing all along and has no desire to do anymore

--Says relationship with OM will end when he moves back to West Coast November 1st. Says they don't plan on being together. This is complete FOG. Between his voice mails, her voice mails and they number of calls and contact each day, they are most defintetly going to keep the relationship going and figure out how to spend the rest of their lives together.


--She thinks there is no way either of us could trust the other person. Thinks there is no way given our history. Wonders when I'll realize it and just "give up". Thinks I'm not thinking clearly for saying I could think it would work if we both tried.


--Told her that with our marriage vows, and our decision to bring three kids into this world, I believe we must work and do everything possible for marriage and for family. She seems to think only thing left is to figure out how to be good parents in divorce.


---Told her I can't look in mirror and say I did all I could for this marriage. Told her we both need to change and work on things or we will be right back to where we are in a next relationship, so I want to change with her and raise our kids together.

We didn't really fight or argue about it, just discussed our feelings on the marriage and our history. Hoping it is a sign of getting out of withdrawl and moving to conflict?


Well, last two nights she slept in other bedroom because she can't "trust me". Last night she came in the bedroom at 4:00 AM and said she felt awful about what she said to me. Apologized and said she never wanted to hurt me. I thanked her and told her I'd like her to sleep in our bed if she wants.


I don't know if any of this means anything. I was just happy we discussed our relationship for the first time in months. However, I know she is still in denial about the OM and that impact on us.


Please provide some feedback and let me know if I went too far in our conversation. Should I continue to interact and discuss with her in the next few days/weeks? Or should I lay low?

Just to update.

WW is now feeling anxiety and less control. She caught me yesterday morning crying and then called later in the day to make sure I was not going to do anything drastic.

She feels fully exposed and wants to contact a lawyer. Threw a boundary out to me that I need to promise to deal only with her and not OM or his kids or she will go to lawyer

Told her I have only asked for her to respect me and our family and to end contact. I have no desire to do anthing else.

She admitted it is important what other people think and therefore has no idea why I have told some family and friends about this. (FOG)


It is difficult for me to do a true Plan A because our biggest issue is having true conversations about issues and our relationship. Since I have a tendancy to avoid conflict, Plan A looks to her like nothing more than the same old story. I am trying to change my behavior and get control of my life.

I'm doing my best, but I know none of this can help unless she ends contact with OM, which she is unwilling to do.

My therapist is helping me understand how to stay off WW's emotional roller coaster. I want her to understand she is not in control.

I still held off telling her parents as that will make her livid and could push her out the door (but then again, she may need that to understand what she'd be missing)

I am confused, even with all the great advice I get here.

FOG help.

I need help with the following FOG talk:


1.) She had 1st A 4 years ago. The fact that we are in the same situation again is because we didn't cherish each other and with all the pain we went through, we are here again


2.) This is not about him, it is about us. "I wish I didn't have the relationship with him becasue that's what you now think it is. I was unhappy before him"

3.) I need you to promise you will deal with me on this and not affect OM or his kids.

4.) Don't tell my friends or family. What are you trying to do, smear my name across the country? That will drive me further away and there will be no hope for us.

5.) I don't have a plan to be with him. He is moving to west coast and is not coming back. (contrary to voice mails and notes I've found)

6.) We have worked on our relationship and we are here again, why work at it any more? How can you ever trust me again?

7.) You aren't in love, this is not unconditional love. You have revenge in mind. You are in love with the fantasy of us as a family, not me.

Took a few days off to clear my head and get control. I find the more I take control of the situation as best I can, the better I can handle the lies, attacks, and FOG.

WW started going to a Psychologist on Friday. Not sure if she is being truthful, but it is a start.

Also hired a Private Investigator. I want to make sure if she leaves, I have the best interests of the kids and they stay with me. Sure enough he caught them in a parking garage on Saturday afternoon.

WW couldn't watch our son play soccer because she had a game. Only played first half of her game then went off for a hour with OM. Funny, I'm not even that emotional about it. I guess because I knew it was going on. This give me control in a separation, which is good.

Funny, after she was with OM they went to a bar we used to go to when we were first married. Plenty of bars to go to and she picks the one we went to a lot.

After her afternoon with OM she was very conversational with me. Also made some eye contact. I'm sure the guilt makes her feel bad when she is home with me.

Anyway, had a good Sunday with the kids at the pumpkin farm.

All I thought on the way home was Plan A, Patience, and Whisper.


Still have to expose to her parents and sister. i know I'm dragging my feet. Our anniversary is on Saturday, the 16th. I think I will tell her on that day that her actions are hurting me and the kids and that her parents need to know to help support our family.

Just got off the phone with WW.

OM is moving to west coast in a week or so and never coming back.

WW FOG talk:

--I love my kids, but I don't love you.

--I'm not leaving you for OM, I'm leaving because I'm not in love with you anymore.

--Why can't I separate out you from kids.

--I'm not happy in relationship with you, why don't you see that and give up.

--I have not done anything to hurt the kids.


Told her she hurts me everytime she talks to and sees OM. Told her I love her and love the kids and because of the kids, I want to work at our marriage. Told her if she is unhappy and does not agree with me, there is nothing I can do, but I don't have to agree with her.


Not looking good. Lots of FOG. WW thinks separation and divorce is the way to go for her to be happy.

Looks like we may have to separate for her to fully understand what she has.

Not looking good.

TDVA your reply to your wife was masterful IMO.

And very true.

You , of course, won't lift a finger to help her move out until you a ready to plan B, right ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If its any consolation my FWW wanted to split early on too. She talked about it a whole lot but stayed in my house.

Not sure about that. I raised my voice a few times, but avoided most LBs. Stuck to the facts as best I could.

Told her I will be honest if people ask why we are separating. She said I was threatening her.

Said she must take responsibility for her actions and decisions.

She said that she will be "stuck" if I don't agree to separate and joint custody.

Said she loves the kids and doesn't want to "hurt" them.

Told her her actions and decision to keep this relationship going are hurting me and them.


She is trying her hardest to justify this and to say that there is no hope or chance for us to recover. She is trying her best to close that door behind her, but I know it is still open and I know there are plenty of skeletons there that she is unwilling to look at.


You know when I look at my wife's history, she has always a little bit out of control. Even with me she always initiates something - kids, houses, job changes. The only thing that has been consistent for her is me being there for her, regardless of her actions.

I know I wasn't very good at communication and meeting her needs, but I was there for her. Anyway, I've got my Plan B letter ready.

She's making a lot of noise, but we'll see if she really wants this.