Ok, I need some wonderful BW insight. First, as a FWH, I have been in Plan B (from the other side) for the last 3 months. I don’t think it’s an official MB plan B since she isn’t familiar with the MB concept. She’s just REAL mad! My W is still VERY hurt and angry. It’s only been 10 weeks since D-day. I have established NC and my eyes are defiantly open now. I am seeking God, seeking counsel, seeking repentance, seeking healing, seeking forgiveness and seeking restoration. I am truly remorseful about the sin in my life and HAVE removed it.

Now, with that said… I am suffering (as we ALL are) from a lack of patience. I would love to “rush” the process along but I know I need to give COMPLETE control of the timing of the restoration to my W. (if she even wants to)

So, now to my questions. Is there a type of reverse fog that affects the BS in their anger? She doesn’t seem rational (I guess normal considering the pain I have caused).

I know the next few questions will get me hit in the head with a 2x4, but I’m just trying to get some perspective and not do anything else that would be a LB…so be gentle with me.

How soon can I hope to be able to un-plan B and get to come home?

How much “space” is anger vs. plan B?

When we email can I sign “I love you”?

Can I hug her when we meet?

Can I call to just talk? I miss her like crazy.

How do I get her to see that when I say “I’m sorry” that I am not just sorry I got caught (I confessed) but truly sorry about every stupid decisions I made and would love to go back and undo everything? I am not just feeling guilty… I am remorseful! Broken and repentant. How do I convey that to her?

How do I get her open her heart up to me again?

I read the success stories about couples restoring and I want so bad to be one of those stories. I read about how bad you are all hoping you WS wakes up so you can take them back… how soon does that happen (taking them back after they wake up)?

Does MB have a suggested course for ending the plan B?

I know there are probably no set times for each individual to go through the grieving process, but can you give any idea as to timing?

Thanks,

2scared

WHY are you plan B'ing her??

I don't get it. Shouldn't you be Plan A'ing her?

The whole point of Plan B is to remove yourself from the wayward spouse while they are still in their destructive affair, so you do not lose love for them. I guess I can see a wayward spouse applying this, establishing no contact with a "destructive" aka PISSED betrayed spouse, to insulate themselves from the anger, thus preserving their love for them, but in my humble BETRAYED wife opinion, maybe you need to suck it up and get a little dose of anger. Feel what the insensitive, destructive, hurtful, deceitful actions have meant to her emotionally. Or, am I reading this incorrectly, and she is Plan Bing YOU. If you have ended your affair, and are ready to work on the marriage, I guess you are right, you have to wait until she is ready to see you.

Anyway, to offer my opinion, worth less than probably $.02, here ya go:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, now to my questions. Is there a type of reverse fog that affects the BS in their anger?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would say yes, true remorse, compassion, full disclosure, and patience to let her deal with the pain she is facing, on her terms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She doesn’t seem rational (I guess normal considering the pain I have caused).
I know the next few questions will get me hit in the head with a 2x4, but I’m just trying to get some perspective and not do anything else that would be a LB…so be gentle with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dude...whatever you do, never say this to her. Let me ask you. How "rational" does one act when the very one man that has vowed before God, all her family, her friends, and namely HER, that he would forever love, cherish and protect her, turns around and basically seiges an all out war on her intellect, emotions, and security. You, my friend, were the irrational one. The sooner you can adopt the attitude that you were the crazy person who set off a bomb on your marriage and caused an inordinate amount of pain to her, and she is still reeling from the "friendly fire" the better off you will be. Time for a REAL perspective switch...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
How soon can I hope to be able to un-plan B and get to come home?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When she is ready for you to. What is your point with this question...if it is two weeks you will wait, but if it is 3, you won't...instead of worrying about your needs getting met, I know it is hard as human beings, but put your taker away and worry about HER needs getting met. And Plan A is all about that. She may have YOU in plan b, but you need to have her in Plan A. So, get to work buddy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How much “space” is anger vs. plan B? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't understand this question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When we email can I sign “I love you”?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i say you start trying to show her in any way you can that you love her. Go to the emotional needs questionnaire. Take it as if you were her...figure out what her top needs are, and start trying to meet them pronto...as many as she will let you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can I hug her when we meet?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is affection one of her needs? Has she communicated anything to you about this? If you think it will not appear too much, too clingy, too manipulative, I say yes, but you have to read where she is, and respect that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can I call to just talk? I miss her like crazy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would say yes. I would say you better get busy calling, writing, emailing, and whatever else, especially if you think that communication, companionship, friendship is one of her needs. But again, there is a difference between showing an effort and interest, and becoming desperate, clingy, stalkerish, and a real pain in the rear.

Encourage her to come on the board...we can help her.

Bottom line is....she is hurting...hurting so bad. And she is in a position where the one person who could comfort her, that she could count on, who was her source of security, is the one who inflicted the pain. Can you even begin to relate to how that feels? Maybe the trick is to start to.

Keep praying. If anyone can soften her heart, God can.

Good luck.

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: SerendipiT ]</small>

Plan A and Plan B are only applicable during the A. Your A has ended, you should be working on recovery. You should not be in Plan B. Was it her idea?

Of course, she is very hurt, but she needs to see the changes you have undergone. She can't see them if you are in Plan B.

I know about the whole 'rushing' thing. The fact is recovery takes time and sometimes a whole lot of time. We want the other person to change immediately, but how fast do we change ourselves?

Are you in MC? I suggest you sign up for Retrouvaille immediately.

You will have to accept that the timetable to come home is entirely up to her and if you can convey that idea (she is the one in control because of the tremendous pain you have caused her) it will actually *help* your cause.

You were not fulfilling each other's ENs in your M, so now is the time to give her *everything* she needs.

She will also need alots of assurance that the A has ended. You will need to tell her that she can have access to all cell phones, email accounts, etc. Tell her that you will let her know where you will be everyday and you will call her immediately when your plans have changed.

Also tell her that you will do anything else she needs to feel safe to even begin to consider to rebuild.

This will show that you are serious about recovering your M. It will show her that she means more than anything to you.

Do give her space if she asks for it, but remind her that you are there to discuss *anything*. While BS' tend to want to know the "gory" details when they are angry, don't go there. Try to stay with feelings, places, names, etc.

Yes, you can sign "I love you". She will need to hear that every once and awhile even though it will be awhile until you will hear it back. Yes, ask to give her a hug. Ask if you can call her.

But remember if you are emailing, meeting, calling, you are not in Plan B.

"How do I get her to see that when I say &#8220;I&#8217;m sorry&#8221; that I am not just sorry I got caught (I confessed) but truly sorry about every stupid decisions I made and would love to go back and undo everything? I am not just feeling guilty&#8230; I am remorseful! Broken and repentant. How do I convey that to her?"

Have you ever actually said that to her? Word for word? Say it exactly the way you said it here.

I don’t think it’s an official MB plan B since she isn’t familiar with the MB concept. She’s just REAL mad!

Ahhhh I see you have a flair for the obvious understatement! We'll get along just fine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have established NC and my eyes are defiantly open now.

In order to do this the offical MB way ... write the NC letter.... go to Harley's colums for a sample letter .... send the NC letter offically with copy sent to your wife.

I am seeking God, seeking counsel, seeking repentance, seeking healing, seeking forgiveness and seeking restoration. I am truly remorseful about the sin in my life and HAVE removed it.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Welcome back to Earth!

Now, with that said… I am suffering (as we ALL are) from a lack of patience.

Too bad... this is your turn.... suffer your lack of patience gladly!

I would love to “rush” the process along but I know I need to give COMPLETE control of the timing of the restoration to my W. (if she even wants to)

Good man.

So, now to my questions. Is there a type of reverse fog that affects the BS in their anger? She doesn’t seem rational (I guess normal considering the pain I have caused).

Just LISTEN .... and HOLD HER if she will allow you to. Ask, "May I just hold you?"

Try not to talk unless you are asked a direct question.

Her anger is a GOOD thing! Yes, it is! It means she REALLY CARES! Accept her harsh words. Humble yourself.

I know the next few questions will get me hit in the head with a 2x4, but I’m just trying to get some perspective and not do anything else that would be a LB…so be gentle with me.

Wellllll we'll see how gentle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

How soon can I hope to be able to un-plan B and get to come home?

No time frame. BIG mistake.

Instead, send her ~this~ message as often as necessary

I will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to right my wrong.

How much “space” is anger vs. plan B?

I suspect, if she is even allowing you to talk to her... it's 100% anger ... but KNOW THIS .... her anger is the only voice her hurt has at the moment. When she is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> angry ... tell her "I can see how much you hurt right now"

When we email can I sign “I love you”?

Better to say "What ever it takes for as long as it takes, you are the only woman for me. I love you."

Can I hug her when we meet?

Ask her

Can I call to just talk? I miss her like crazy.

You can try.... but make it about meeting HER needs not yours... "I am available to talk whenever you need me. Just tell me what you need."


How do I get her to see that when I say “I’m sorry” that I am not just sorry I got caught (I confessed) but truly sorry about every stupid decisions I made and would love to go back and undo everything? I am not just feeling guilty… I am remorseful! Broken and repentant. How do I convey that to her?

You cannot convince her of this with your lying lips ... it takes months and months and even years of BEING THE MAN who
adores
protects
cares
listens
holds
shares

WORDS are counterfeit right now. ACTIONS are your only valid currency.


How do I get her open her heart up to me again?

You don't have that power. You can only hope and pray, and behave decently and live with a patient heart.

I read the success stories about couples restoring and I want so bad to be one of those stories.

Hang in there ....


Does MB have a suggested course for ending the plan B?

This is up to YOUR WOUNDED WIFE , not us.

Usually it is NC
counseling
being an open book
no secrets
accounting for your time
extraordinary precaution

I know there are probably no set times for each individual to go through the grieving process, but can you give any idea as to timing?

What are you doing about YOUR grieving process?

Or are you only interested in time-managment of your wife's grieving????

YOU have some self-work to do!!!

ASK YOUR WIFE what changes she needs to see.

OH.... and WELCOME TO MB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Plan B. YOUR IN PLAN B! Excuse me, I think I took a wrong turn on the runway!. YOU ARE THE WS. You don't need to plan B. You need to do an excellent and most efficient plan A NOW!
You need to show her that you love her and you need her and that you will never do this again. And you are sorry, and that the OW is no longer part of your life. If you want your marriage back, YOU need to make the moves, YOU need to make the apoligees, You need to be the one bettering yourself.
You F%%%%%d around on you wife, and you are in plan B. GET REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cherise:
<strong> Plan B. YOUR IN PLAN B! Excuse me, I think I took a wrong turn on the runway!. YOU ARE THE WS. You don't need to plan B. You need to do an excellent and most efficient plan A NOW!
You need to show her that you love her and you need her and that you will never do this again. And you are sorry, and that the OW is no longer part of your life. If you want your marriage back, YOU need to make the moves, YOU need to make the apoligees, You need to be the one bettering yourself.
You F%%%%%d around on you wife, and you are in plan B. GET REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

His wife kicked him out and he is being "plan B'd" by his wife (according to him ... but not really, coz his W is not on the MB train.... she's just removed him from her space.)

Pep

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

You guys, I think he means that his WIFE is in Plan B because she will not talk to him.

A couple of thoughts...

First, I am Plan A'ing her as she lets me. I am staying soft, kind, giving her opportunity to blast me (I KNOW what a jerk I was). I am on my face before God and falling on my sword before my wife and children. I love them!

I wasn't in the least bit trying to imply that my W was not rational...I betrayed the sacred committment pledged before God. I DESERVE ALL THE ANGER.

I want to heal. I want to recommit. I want our marriage restored and I am in this for the long run, and I am working on "me" to be assured that every wall of protection is up so that this mistake NEVER EVER happens again.

I was just looking for insight into non LB things to do. I have already told her that I would love to come home...but it has to be in her time and under her conditions. I am the submitive H.

I have already...right after D-Day, become completely transparrent. I opened up all phone records and gave her access to internet monitoring. Set all my passwords to the same password and gave it to her. VM access. Schedules... everything.

Someone who doesn't have anything to hide (anymore) doesn't mind open transparency.

I AM broken!!!!!!

By the way, we have just started MC. The first joint session is this Sat.

I would love to be home so that we can work on meeting needs and work on rebuilding...but it has to be her timing. Right now she is still mad. I don't think she wants me there yet.

We have some contact. About everyother day email. Maybe I see her for about 15 min once a week. Phone calls a couple of times a week (short informational). She is still wanting some space and I am trying to honor that. In fact, I am looking to honor her in EVERTHING I do...from the space to our communication.

It will just take time. I was just looking for suggestions.

2scared

Wait everyone -- I think he is saying that his W is the one in Plan B and he is on the receiving end of it. Is that correct?

It sounds like you are truly sorry and I think that will go a long way towards helping your W heal. I will come back later to answer your questions as a BS. I just wanted to clarify the Plan B issue.

Before I come back, what do you think your W needs to heal from this? If you were in her shoes, what would you need/want in order to agree to recover the M?

be back later...

2scared, you oughta call Steve Harley. He is a pro at this and can often do in a couple of sessions what most MC can never accomplish. He is very PRO Marriage. [a rare thing, believe me] You don't have to worry about your time being wasted with "how do you feel about that?" He will assess your situation and put you on the right path.

2scared - She is hurting and it will take time for her to work through this. In the mean time see what you can do for HER, not for you. You want to call her because YOU miss her, you want to hold her because that is what YOU need. Change the focus to HER and HER needs.

Cut the lawn while she is at work, leave flowers on the front step for her, send her a funny e-mail that you think would bring a smile to her face, buy her two tickets for a play you think she would enjoy and let her take a friend, take her a box of chocolates to her work and leave them at the front desk for her.

It is beautiful to see a broken man after an A. It reminds of King David in the Bible. Obviously, it is better to avoid the A in the first place but what is done is done and what does God want . . . to see us broken so He can build us up.

Two things you can do in addition to being patient, considerate and getting MC.

1. Pray for yourself, your wife, and your marriage.

2. Find some good Christian guys to give you some emotional support. You cannot expect to have your emotional needs met by your wife right now. However, you cannot expect to not have severe emotional needs either.

You sound like you are on the right track. If my ex was you, we would be together right now. He did all the wrong things. He would not get counseling for himself (after 7 affairs). He would not be patient (he would not leave me alone). He did not take responsibility (he told me it was really my fault and kept me up until 3:30 in the morning waiting for me to agree). He gave me a deadline as to when he could come back to our bedroom and expected me to take him back even though he was seeing someone else at the same time.

You're doing great. Keep up the patience and your love for your wife. There are no guarantees but it is the right thing to do and it often has wonderful results.

Hi 2scared – first let me start off by saying I am NO Expert!!! I am on the recovery board but read here every once in awhile. As a BS I can only tell you how I felt/feel. I am a different person then your W but will give you some insight on what I went through. I WAS just like your W – EXTREMELY ANGRY! My H’s A was also already over and he established NC the minute the OW’s XH contacted me so there was really no call for a Plan A on my part and it’s a good thing because there was NO WAY I would have been able to pull that off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I was beside myself with rage, despair and unbelievable pain. My H and knocked me down to my knees and that is not an easy thing to do. How soon can you go home? Not knowing your situation, I can tell you that my H would have been out the door on D-day also if I hadn't had a 2 ½ year old and a baby due in a month and a half. Honestly – those are the ONLY reasons that I even considered allowing my H to stay under the same roof in the very beginning. BUT – in hindsight I am a firm believer that separation does not help in any way. You need to be together to work through this and if you are living apart that is going to be tough to do. There is SO much work and communication that must take place – I think it would be almost impossible to do it living apart. Have you and your W started any counseling? I remember when my H brought it up just the thought of it made me incredibly tired. But he found a MC and it made a WORLD of difference. It helped HIM to understand why he did the things he did and what he was STILL doing. It showed ME how to establish boundaries and allowed me to “hear” what my H was trying to tell me. Having my H find the counselor and make the apt (after getting my buy in) was also something that he did to prove how much he wanted to get our M back on track! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
How much space is anger? That is a question for your W. I know that for me I was so hurt I pushed my H to the limit over and over and over (and still sometimes do). For me it was my way of seeing if he was strong enough to finally stand up for us – something that I felt he had not done in the four years since the PA ended. This is one of the many conversations you are going to have to have with your W and you are going to have to go on some of your knowledge of her. My H knew what I was doing and just kept plugging away.
The I Love You thing is a bit tricky in my opinion. I could not hear it enough but all of a sudden my H stopped saying it about 3 months into recovery. When I brought it up at a MC session I found out he felt like he was pressuring me to say it back and didn’t want to do that so he felt like he needed to go easy on that for my sake. Again – a conversation for you to have with your W because my H assumed he was doing the best thing for me and it was not a good decision – not what I wanted at all!
Hugging and just calling to talk to her – I think when you see her you may be able to tell if hugging her is ok but if you can’t just ask her! Just say – W I cannot tell how good it is to see you can I give you a quick hug? Calling just to talk is a GREAT thing unless she has specifically stated otherwise. There is NO WAY you are going to be able to rebuild your M if you are not communicating. I told my H about 3 months ago…..when I pull back during my difficult days you have GOT to step up and pull me back! You CANNOT be hesitant or worry about being rejected. If you don’t stand up and hold me or curl up with me in bed and we go days without touching then I am going to drift farther and farther away and I am going to start re-assuring myself that kids or no kids – I can go it without you. I had to tell him that and he had to step up to the plate.
How do you get her to understand that you are sorry and get her to open up her heart to you again? Time, patience, communication and LOTS OF HARD WORK. As I told my H – his words meant very little to me. Actions were/are what I needed to see. He would say things and my eyes would just glass over – I needed TO SEE HIM fight for me and our M. I needed to SEE how much he loved me and wanted me and our M. Have I opened up my heart to him – not completely and we are almost 10 months into this. This is a VERY long journey you and your W are about to embark on. It is going to take a lot of love and a lot of time. I hope at least some of this helps!!!

Ok... I have a few splinters in my head...but that's not anything unusual for the last 3 months.

To answer a few questions. I realized the double life was a sin and killing me so I moved out the first of June and got alone with me. No outside distractions. It only took about 3 weeks to realize that I needed to get my life right before God, my wife and family. I repented before God, Established NC, told my wife and children and began reading everything I could find on infidelity. I fasted and prayed. Then the world came apart. My mother died, my wife and kids wouldn't speak to me, my youngest daughter in college was date raped, and I wasn't allowed to be part of her life. I continued in NC. I dove into fixing me before God and my family. That's when I first came here. I also got involved with newlife ministry (a christian restoration based counseling service) and every man's battle (a ministry for men who have been through infidility). I read, studied and went through withdrawl while greiving so many losses it's a wonder I didn't explode. Not to mention a high stress job.

Anyway, I am out from the fog and wanting to reconcile BUT now that I am ready, she isnt. That's okay because youre all right...It's not about me or my timing...It's about her and what feels safe and right for her. I am an open book and doing everything I can to honor her and reassure her I love her and am willing to do anything for as long as it takes!!!! I AM committed to her and her only!!!!!

I am doing the lawn while she's gone, flowers, cards....but I'm the obsessive one about that stuff so I have to watch that I don't OVERDO it. Doing too much is a LB for her.

I'm just looking for BW insight into what YOU would want. What would her needs be... I want it to be about her NOT me.

I have been asked a lot about what the WH is thinking when in the fog... I am just asking your help giving me perspective about what BW is needing. I want to stay humble, and sensitive to HER needs.

Give me insight into what would be nice and what would be LB at this fragile time. No man's land. The time between the A and the restoration.

2scared

2scared - What most of us BS's on this site want is what you are already doing! Most of our WS's don't want to work on the M. It sounds like you are doing all the right things and just need to give it more time. Keep at it and good luck to you.

here is my .02 ~ (this is the short but sweet version!)

1. Get thee to IC.

2. Plan A you a** off and KEEP DOING it no matter what her response.

3. Cut back on the WORDS. ACTIONS are your only hope right now. Do what you can when you can while she is Plan B'ing you.

4. Last but NEVER least ~ PATIENCE

Good luck, 2scared! My H did all this and we are doing very well in R. My prayers are with you and your wife!

Frags

You sound very repentant and earnest in your love for your wife.

Check out this AWESOME website I found. It is www.loveandrespect.com. I heard this Christian Marriage Counselor and minister on Focus on the Family, and his message is SOOOOO poignant and DEAD on with what the bible says to do unto your wife (and for wives, unto their husbands).

Dr. Eggerich's is awesome! I employed what he said in Plan A unto my WH and it did make an impact (he even mentioned it several times). Unfortunately, unlike you, he pulled further and further away from God, instead of pulling closer, and I have lost my marriage and now have a broken family (we are filing D on Friday).

Anyways, I think the insights there were all biblically sound, have a lot of insight into the differences between men and women, and as a woman, I could identify with everything that Dr. Eggerich's advised would reach a woman. I highly recommend the DVD recordings of his conference, or go live with your wife if you are able.

Good luck, and sorry if I came across harsh initially. Sounds like you are following God's path. Hold the course. Satan will try and frustrate you, trip you up, etc. STAND TALL and STAY THE COURSE.

1 Samuel 12:16 "STAND and see this great thing the Lord is about to do before your eyes."

Matthew 10:22 "Men will hate you because of me, but he who STANDS FIRM until the end will be saved,"