Guys, when did you STOP thinking ILYBINILWY and actually start to ILY your H once more ?

And was it just time, distance and Plan A that helped you reconsider or an event ?

My WW and myself have come enormous strides these few days: ENORMOUS: we even made love this morning (her choice and I KNOW making love from sex, believe me) yet she just pushed me back in a light conversation saying I am a "friend" to her.

I'm not too hurt as I know that deeds not words define feelings during withdrawal. AND our conversation has been intimate this afternoon about issues OTHER than our relationship.

I want to know what sign to expect that its OK to be affectionate to her once more as I once was.

I asked her "are you in a place where you would welcome my affection yet, baby?". She replied " if it makes you feel better".

Not sure I know what that means,(doesn't care, doesn' feel she deserves it, genuinely doesn't mind if it makes me feel better , go figure etc.) hence my question to you lovely FWWs on here.

Thanks.

PS and yes I know she may never love me again. :(That'll be hard but I'll get past it.

Besides, I cleaned and polished her daft sportcar today WITH MY FINGER ENDS, and it won me a kiss on the cheek when she came back and saw it.

What woman can resist a man in a superman tee shirt, rugby shorts and car polish in his hair ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

After my two-beer maximum, better keep me away!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

(Just simply--just couldn't simply resist!!! HA!)

Happy Thursday, Bob. Excellent to hear things are going well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 03, 2004, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: lovemyhubby ]</small>

Hey LINY ! Just shared a bottle of cold fizz with my WW over lunch. I have a ha;lf bottle limit there ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hope all is well with you, friend.

ILMH, thats nice, I'm delighted your recovery is going so well ! You have a special man there it seems.....

Loving her ain't a problem. heck, I loved her when she was deliberately making my kids cry and I had to take 'em bowling before I called the police last month !

Imagine how I love her now she's opening upher heart to me, making love to me, smiling at me while looking in my eyes, crying with me, holding hands... ? * sigh *

I love this girl I truly do. God gave her to me, and I think he's giving her back to me.

Your comments taken on board, thanks.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

His nearly instantaneous forgiveness was such a surprise to me, I began to feel such warmth toward him right away. (He forgave not only the A, but wanted to raise the baby I was carrying at the time, knowing it was most likely x-om's).

I can't say that ILY came immediately back for me, but I was so grateful to him, and I built on that. He didn't know about Plan A, but he did the concepts, instinctively. He didn't need to do those things, in order to get me out of the A, since I had ended it before I confessed. However, the steps he took, went a long way to help my ILY to come back, pretty darn swiftly.

I hope your W soon comes to her complete senses, and realizes what a blessing she has in you.

Bob,

Like lovemyhubby I never stopped loving my H or doubt my feelings for him, although I felt very confused while I was in early recovery, the fog and during early withdrawal. On that stage (withdrawal and fog) I still love my H, but I felt as if I wasn’t really romantically “in love” with him. After I’ve realized that the “in love” feelings I had for OM were just infatuation and an immature, puppy-love, I could start to appreciate the real, lasting love and feelings I have for my H. The “in love” feelings for OM was just a fantasy – not real, but my H is my “soft place to fall” (as always stated by Dr Phil). I’ve learned and realized that love is a choice, an action and that feelings is not always reliable and lasting. I have learned that feelings often follow actions and that romantic love in a M is something that needs to be feed and take care off (like a garden/flowers) by both spouses.

Blessings,
Suzet

Bob,
No I’m not a FWW or H for that matter, LOL, but I’ve had to deal with your problem so if you’re interested, here’s what I learned.

1. As you’ve already observed, it’s not what a person says, it’s what they do. If she’s acting in a loving way then why define it as friendship? No matter what she may say. In fact, if you think about it, it’s kind of like the reverse of that stupid excuse we all got to hear from time to time. You know the one, “the I love you but I’m not in love with you” line! So now she’s saying you’re her “friend” but she’s acting like she’s in love with you! LOL This is really funny if you think about it.
2. Love is an over rated word. But being treated in a loving way?! Ah, that is something that is almost beyond price.
3. Stop trying so damned hard! Back off a bit and stop being so effusive. Strive for a consistency of behavior rather putting forth an exaggerated effort
4. Ask for nothing at this point other then honesty and respect. Gain those two elements in your relationship and love will almost always follow.

Keep it up. Things sound like they’ve really turned around.
Coach

Thanks FWW friends ! All very interesting !

Coach, thank U 2. I AM backed off and I'm NOT being effusive, just wondering when to recommence normal affectionate behaviour. I am falsely 'standing off' right now and have been since 180-ing soon after d-day.

Yes Loving deeds are worth more than words, I tried to convey that in my initial post, but the words are important too IMO.

We have time, I'm just trying to get inside my wifes head a little by asking these ladies !

I appreciate your input coach, I'm learning all the time !

Bob...

You gotta read the books my friend. This is explained. Making love/sex is actually a love bank withdraw during early recovery, even though you'd think it's a deposit (sex dependant I think)...

So, she might have been feeling just borderline pre-sex, and desired it specifically with you, but following climax, she had the bank withdrawl, and may have dropped back below the line of 'not sure what I feel'....

Give it two days, keep plan a'ing and she will probably start feeling better again, HOWEVER, don't expect her to tell you. They just don't like telling us husbands that they feel good about us, especially so close to what just happened. I personally believe it makes them feel crappy about the whole affair, so, they just bottle it up and even try to tell themselves they don't feel in love with us, sort of a justification thingy... this whole falling in and out of love so quickly, it's a messy thing.

Hang in there. Have you talked with your wife about control of sex? Now that she has initiated it even once, a new boundary has been established. You should discuss it, if you can, and help each other understand what you feel when one makes an advance and the other says no. Passionate Marriage has a great chapter on this exact scenario.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> asked her "are you in a place where you would welcome my affection yet, baby?". She replied " if it makes you feel better". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob~

Just a thought...you may want to refrain from asking her questions such as this for awhile yet.

Congratulations on your successes BP. Been praying for you everyday.

RookKev or anyone, what book says that making love / sex is a love bank withdrawl in early recovery?

C.

Ask for nothing at this point other then honesty and respect. Gain those two elements in your relationship and love will almost always follow.

This is really good!

Pep

It's in either HNHN or SaA ... I will dig up the reference tonight. It talks about how right after, expect for that 'IL' feeling to drop, and thus, the next morning, you won't be shocked if your fws starts acting a bit like that old ws. It helped me a ton, knowing that going in, and, sure enough, it did happen. However, my wife gave in to sex much earlier than she personally desired, as I had reached my limit... so, that affected things a bit, adversely, although who ever really knows anymore what the heck. LOL.

Hmm

I am not running way with our success ( 3 days of civility and progress afer 2 months of spite and vitriol!) , nor am I an honors student of every pro marriage book. I am flying by the seat of pants informed by cool folks here , SAA, infidelity - and Torn Asunder ( HN/HN and LB books with Amazon till Saturday ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I am plan a'ing as appropriately as I am able. I am trying also to maintain the distance my WW requested when she was very fog bound and spiteful a few weeks ago.

We have become more intimate in speech the last few days, and this culminated in an atmosphere charged with need, desire and lovelessness this morning. WW didn't 'give in# to sex , Rook kev, I did, but we BOTH wanted to. We made love, and knew silently afterwards that it meant a lot to both of us. No more detail here * blush *

WW was just as open and fogless afterwards when we got the kids ready for school as she was the last evening before SF.

If that lovemaking was a mistake during this withdrawal phase, then shoot me, but we both needed , wanted and appreciated the exchange of love. There has been no coldness in attitude from WW. She was funny earlier, she laughed her infectious laugh in fact that I had missed so much. Relaxed.

We are not skipping around like moonstruck teens, but things are civil, meaningful discussion seems forthcoming from WW at every opportunity, and I am just plan A'ing like I have been for 8 weeks. She says hurtful stuff and has a mist of fog descend every so often

I asked if WW was ready for more affection because after such real, genuine lovemaking today I thought to continue my deliberate physical distance might be an LB to her - Like i was 'using ' her and didn't want to be affectionate.
If she needs to be held, but can't ask...thats a bad thing. I did not LB, and asked a genuine respectful question that accommodated the unusual circumstances we find ourselves in right now.

My WW said to me in early Plan A that she loves me as a friend. Now her every behaviour for days has shown that so something in her heart is changing and I wondered from FWWs when the words begin to support the deed. She may not even have noticed that she is becoming loving towards me yet. Thats my question.

<small>[ September 09, 2004, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

I don't think you LB'd by the question either. I think it's wonderful you are being so sensitive to her, but for some reason the question seemed a little needy, a little pushy. I'm not sure what it is. I just know my BH never asked things like that. He just went with it--I think using my body language, and responses as his cue. He acted very sure of himself, (even if inside he wasn't sure of anything at all).

No two WW are the same, no two BH are the same, and certainly no two M are the same. Just giving my POV as a FWW, and how I might have perceived questions like that.

To your last question--she may very well not realize how loving she's been to you. I remember asking my H one time fairly early on in recovery, why he was being so kind to me--like not throwing things in my face, or bringing up mis-deeds, where pre-A, he did all the time. He said, he felt like he was living with a completely different woman now, that I had changed, and become such a loving wife. That the underlying BIG stuff was now gone, that the little stuff, he barely noticed--he was just so happy, nothing to throw in my face...

At that point, I wasn't even really aware of all the changes I had made.

You're doing well, and I'm so glad to hear of the progress with your W!!

I think I'm being misunderstood here... darn it. The action and the meaning isn't a LB. Just following climax, there is a similairity to a love bank withdrawl. I think I can only draw a picture here... it's like going to an ATM to get cash. You take money out of your bank, but you still have that money in your pocket, it's not spent, then, a little bit later, you put the money back in the bank. It's just a side effect of the sex. I am in no way implying you engaged her too quickly Bob, nor saying you did anything 'negative'. I was speaking that for my wife, it was too quick in recovery...and even in that, I don't know for a fact, as God has us together still, 9 months later, and no sight of OM.

Does that make more sense? I hope so. Personally Bob, I think it sounds like things are going great on your side, and the work is paying it's dividends. I think by now you understand alot of plan a is about showing your wife you are aware you weren't meeting her needs, and you can change, and your actions speak that you can change and grow. I think you have experienced first hand that plan a'ing doesn't really 'make' the other person happy, nor even you too much, it's about recognizing behaviors and changing them. (during the a) However, now, you are getting to plan a to a somewhat receptive heart, and the rewards are starting to mount. I encourage you to press on, it's exciting for everyone to see what progress can be made in spite of the hostility you were shown by your fww. (hehe, fww? isn't that exciting Bob?)

* RK, I understand your point thanks. I gotta say the ATM never looked or smelled better , as she caught her breath and fumbled to hold my hand afterwards this morning... *blush* enough TOO MUCH already.. * blush*

"FWW" , Wow RK I'll be happy when thats the case!

Still no LNC so not yet I'm afraid. Until she chooses to enforce NC, she's a WW and technically teh A is still active. I will still review plan A, with a view to plan B at end September then again at year end. Be really sad to do it, but we can't risk all this effort and achievement being thrown out by a contact.

You are dead right about plan A. I've come to believe that its mostly something positive for a BS to do without piss1ng off the WW while she wrestles with her fog.

Good though, its allowed me to hit the ground running now WW is more civil and responsive.

* autumnday I see what you mean now. My Q was intended by me and received by WW as an offer not a request. That she couldn't answer affirmatively showed that you are right and it was too early to ask.

You'll find Bob, that quite often, I am right--J/K!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

See, her response to your question was what made me think to mention it at all. I didn't want to say it directly, because I wasn't sure what you thought of her response.

I'd say the "sign" to look for, to know that it's ok to be affectionate to her once more, is when she begins to reciprocate, even a little. She did reciprocate when you ML, that's a very good sign. Obviously though, things are not how they once were--yet, (and no NCL has been written yet--that's a biggie). So, I would go slowly, little by little, proceeding with caution, and not expecting much. Also, I don't think you should go stone cold sober on her, showing absolutely no affection after a time of SF. That's sending some mixed messages of your own.

She's not given you a green light, but I do believe she's given you a yield sign.

AD, in our discussion WW has not said she won't do an LNC but that she won't give up refereeing which is a slightly different thing.

I believe she woud write an NCL if we could work out some way for her to referee without meeting OM. Trouble is that isn;t gonna work as he is (at the moment) Chief referee for the UK. Now even though the balance has been WAY wrong lately AND reffing helped the A to develop, WW is very proud of being the only female accredited ref in Europe and ADORES refereeing. And its only six to ten tournaments a year. BUT thats enough to kill our M.

I understand that she is reticent to give that up, but I just can't see a way of maintaining NC while she does it thats the problem.

Sure its prioritising a hobby over our M but just step in her shoes for a bit - which of us has such a merit in a national sport ?

Bear in mind also that the only thing OM has in his life is Karate so WW would be extremely satisfied with a relationship with him until she got tired of karate and realised he didn't have a job in 10 years, was criminal, was a liar, was a serial womanizer, was a 52 YO jock who can't string two sentences together.. etc. Yeah, Bob's opinion but all fact. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now THEN she may give up reffing to come back to me but I really don;t want that to happen if possible. Interesting.....

That is quite a dillema.

IMO, contact of any sort is dangerous, and such a road block on the road to recovery. That's not to say I haven't heard of being done, as I'm sure you've read too.

Sometimes I just don't get WS, even though I was one. You'd think I'd get them better, hey? I do, to a certain extent, but I will never understand why there aren't more who are willing to give their left arm to make things right. I know your W isn't at that crossroad yet, where she needs to make that decision, so perhaps she will change her tune when the time comes.

Maybe it's because of my OC, and that there was SO much my H gave up for me, that there was just no way in hell I would ever in a million years risk contact w/ x-om. Talk about a certain event, that leads a WW back to ILY!