I ran across an old post of yours that I just HAD to comment on: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would expect for the males the physical part of the marriage to have a higher symbolic value. The physical union is symbolising "what is special and exclusive to the two of us".
I don't know, guys, either this is is psychobabble junk (very popular at that) or men are even bigger liars when they say a lengthy affair was "just sex." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Men are liars. ESPECIALLY men who are having affairs. Or as I put it once before: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There is no such thing as "just sex" - or rather, what exactly does he mean by "just sex"? No emotional attachment? Then why not masturbate - that is more physically pleasurable. Whenever I hear "it was just sex", my radar goes off, because I don't know what "just sex" is, and I'm a guy. I know for darn sure that it was not STRICTLY physical pleasure, for the reason mentioned above. so, if not that, what?

This is sort of the flip side of my wife saying that her affair was not about sex - she was just lonely and craving the emotional intimacy he offered (and he explicitly said that though he wanted to have sex with her, he valued her friendship and just wanted to spend time with her - and mostly acted consistently with that). OK, why have sex then? When we explored this a bit, we discovered there were some sexual aspects to her desire, after all (like, DUH!).

One other thing: That is just something WS's, especially men, say to make themselves feel a little less guilty. But don't take that to mean that I think he is lying to you, even though that is also a possibility. One of your tasks in recovery is for both of you to come to an understanding of what sex means to you and to your spouse.

Some people here may think I am making a Disrespectful Judgement by saying "There is no such thing as 'just sex'", so let me explain what I mean. I understand the phrase: "It was just sex" to mean: "It was only about the physical pleasure, I was not emotionally involved". As a guy I find that difficult to believe for two reasons. One: masturbation can be more physically pleasurable than sex, because we have a perfect feedback mechanism (nerves) built into us that allow us to give ourselves the best FEELING sexual experience possible. If it was really "just about physical pleasure", then he would masturbate, and not risk his marriage with an affair. Duh! Two, men are wired so that sex affects us emotionally. We couldn't escape that if we wanted to, (though some men do dull that connection by use of pornography, masturbation and one-night stands). Any man who wants to can prove this to themselves by trying to masturbate without using any fantasy at all. For many, it will not be possible. For the rest, it will take a lot longer. Why do you think sex is so important to men? It makes them feel loved and accepted!! That is far more powerful than physical pleasure, at least on this planet.
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<small>[ September 10, 2004, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

I quite agree, John. My therapist correctly said: "It's always about emotions, even when you go to a prostitute."

I also came to the conclusion that if it would be "just sex" a man (or a woman) would simply masturbate - no A, no STD's, no problems. In fact the male body needs to have a release of the build up of sperm every few weeks (if I remember well). But many men want to have sex every day. So that's not about what their body needs, it's about what they think/phantasise about (in response to visual stimuli etc.) until their body starts to react to it and a "need" is created.. through the mind, not the body.

And then there is the line some men use "I had to find someone else because I want sex every day, and my W doesn't (anymore)."
Now.. how does this work? Does he go to OW every single day to have his daily sex? Of course not. His BW would find out soon enough. I guess he needs to feel wanted. That boosts his ego, makes him feel good. It doesn't have to happen every day.. if he can only imagine OW would want it every day if that were possible.

Thank you for your male insight, John.

I too always wondered how a man could detach from his emotions enough to make sex with someone "just sex". To me it would take a sociopath to be able to do this.

I have also been wondering lately, why women risk their lives, their health and spend thousands of dollars for breast implants - Just to please men? I find it hard to believe that most men are so shallow to appreciate this type of "improvement".

My question to John is, as a man do think that breast size is that important? Do men really feel that large breasts are important enough for a woman to go to such lengths to have them?

I have a lot of trouble believing that men feel much emotional feelings towards prostitutes.

The it's only sex, is probably more truthfully expressed "it was mostly about sex". Most men spend their lives wanting sex, so it's hard to imagine that sex with OW is too far down the list of reasons for being with her. The offers of A's I've had, have been about sex - and I dare say I've come across a reasonable cross section of males. Though actually I'm a fascinating, scintilating female. So, maybe they wanted to have some conversation before and after? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Weaver: Breast implants? Mmmm. I feel sick at this subject. I was always likely to get breast cancer, but doubly now since dealing with the grief and hurt of my husbands betrayal for a far younger, bigger breasted female. While my FWH was dating OW, with exceptionally large, high, firm breasts (his words), I took him to visit a plastic surgeon to discuss prophylactic mastectomies to prevent me dying of familial breast cancer. You really would think that 30 yrs of friendship and marriage - with fear of breast cancer for the last 10 years, would cause a half decent husband to think twice about what this might do to the woman "he wanted to spend the rest of his life with" (his words). Naaaa. Afraid not.

I must admit that I imagine big breasts are everything to a man. They were to my H. His A lasted 10 weeks at D-day, and all she'd let him do was touch her breasts and look at them and the other things men do with breasts. You really do wonder what is wrong with men that they can't see past big breasts.

BTW, I didn't go ahead with prophylactic mastectomies. After d-day, I didn't care whether I got breast cancer or not. Sometimes silicon implants are preferable to the real thing.

An

"BTW, I didn't go ahead with prophylactic mastectomies. After d-day, I didn't care whether I got breast cancer or not. Sometimes silicon implants are preferable to the real thing."

{{{{{{Anyname}}}}}}

I hope your care now!


Weaver

Dear Anyname,

I'm sorry for the pain you have been in. I hope you are doing better now?

I wonder too why men are so interested in milk glands covered with skin. Or silicon bags covered with skin. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But since they (almost) all are, there must be something that's really beyond their control - some instinct that makes their intellect shrink to prehistoric proportions.
Although not every culture is into "big breasts". For most Chinese or Japanese men big breasts belong on cows, not women <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
<strong> I have a lot of trouble believing that men feel much emotional feelings towards prostitutes.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well.. they do. I'm sure they prefer it if such a woman is kind to them and makes them feel comfortable. If she's rushing things to "get it over with" or if she's nasty, I'm quite sure they won't go back to her. So there are some feelings - wanting to be accepted, something like that. Even if it's for money. My H said he enjoyed sitting at the bar at this place and getting the attention of all these women. Of course it's business to them.. but it's a nice illusion.. All about being interesting, being wanted. And yes, sex is a BIG way for a man to feel OK with himself. Why do you think some men get very, very nasty when you turn them down?

I'm getting more and more convinced that a lot of our strong emotions concerning an A are very primitive instincts. The male or female looking for another partner.. the invasion of territory (the M).. the fear of being abandoned, even when we are really independent, strong persons - the anger, wanting to "kill" OP..

We need to raise ourselves above these instincts to get through this stuff. Prayer, counseling, real honest conversation, for those we need "higher" faculties of the brain. If we dwell on guilt, anger, hurt, blame and fear, we allow our instincts to be our master.

Forgiveness is the result of using the higher faculties of our brain. It cannot be forced, it comes naturally.

Nothing can be lost by tapping into these higher faculties, everything is to be gained!

((((Anyname))))

::::I'm getting more and more convinced that a lot of our strong emotions concerning an A are very primitive instincts. The male or female looking for another partner.. the invasion of territory (the M).. the fear of being abandoned, even when we are really independent, strong persons - the anger, wanting to "kill" OP..

Brownhair, I can see from your posts that you are working hard to understand all this. I totally agree with the above comment. Sometimes I want to kill my FWH too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I have never been a violent person, but this experience has evoked terrible primative feelings in me. I am not religious, so I kinda run free with my feelings. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I feel a bit like an out of control child. I was an out of control teenager until I was 16 or so and then I decided to conform and settled down to a sensible life. Now I feel like the out of control kid has taken over again - and there's no-one around to discipline me. Oh god, plse don't let JL read this thread!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BTW, I live amongst the chinese. They like breasts!

John39 opined:
"One: masturbation can be more physically pleasurable than sex, because we have a perfect feedback mechanism (nerves) built into us that allow us to give ourselves the best FEELING sexual experience possible. If it was really "just about physical pleasure", then he would masturbate, and not risk his marriage with an affair. Duh!"

Oh contraire. Masturbation can be an interesting diversion, but it is (in my opinion) a very poor substitute for sex. More to the point, for me sex feels better and I'm speaking in a strictly physical sense. It is more pleasurable to have intercourse than to go solo . . . that is why men just don't masturbate . . . I've never even approached the physical pleasure I've experienced during intercourse when flying solo . . . maybe you do, but I sure don't. Yes, sex is better if there is emotional attachment, but I know that I can just have sex to have sex . . . I’ve done it in the past.

I agree with the poster that wrote about prostitutes. I don't think that most men that pay a woman for OS are really looking for a strong emotional attachment. BTW OS feels so much better than masturbation too IMHO.

Aha Anyname...
good to get feedback on those Chinese! I have been told to opposite.. so I guess, as there are many many Chinese... both versions of males probably exist.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Comfortably Numb...
of course no man going to a prostitute would be looking for strong emotional attachment.. in fact, I think most men go there exactly because there are no attachments! I just think the illusion of being "wanted" is also a strong ingredient. And that is a feeling. After all, men get fooled into thinking they're so "interesting" even when it's obvious to everyone that the young attractive woman is just after his money and would dump him if his wallet would ever get empty.

Aha.. and women get fooled into thinking a man "loves" them "forever" while it's obvious to everyone that he's only trying to get her into bed.

Fascinating.
But please beam me up now Scotty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> for me sex feels better and I'm speaking in a strictly physical sense. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not all that surprised that someone would say this - people are different. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't think that most men that pay a woman for OS are really looking for a strong emotional attachment.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that most men who pay prostitues are not looking for "a strong emotional attachment", but that is not what Brownhair said. There are other emotional reasons one might have sex besides a desire for "a strong emotional attachment". A desire for conquest, for the adrenaline rush of doing something dangerous and forbidden, as an anesthetic to loneliness, for physical and emotional comfort, for the feeling of being desired (many Prostitutes are quite good actresses, as brownhairs post implies), and who knows how many other possibilities are all emotionally-based reasons for seeing a prostitute. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, sex is better if there is emotional attachment, but I know that I can just have sex to have sex </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so what does that mean "just have sex to have sex" - is it just for the physical release? Just for the physical pleasure? Just for the affirmation of your maleness...but that gets into emotional territory. What exactly do you get out of it?

::::"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats . . ." The Water Rat to the Mole, from Wind in the Willows.

Wonderful.

Comfortably numb, Do you think Blind Freddy prefers OS or masterbation? Let's make him blind from birth! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Just going back to the breast issue - it obviously depends on circumstances!! I am a very well-endowed 38E. My WH had/has his A with a flat chested chinese woman. This is my assumption. I have never seen her but having lived in Asia for 15 years, I have yet to see a local lady with even a quarter of my chest! For my WH he said it wasn't all about sex. He made a big emotional attachment. At a time in our M when we had so many problems (health/financial), this woman made him feel wanted. Something I had neglected to do. I can't do it now because I feel so let down and I also feel he neglected me terribly so I became supermum instead of superwife. Looked after him like he was another of my kids. We had been drifting apart for at least 3 years and sex had really suffered. It used to be a strong part of our M. I still can't help but feel this is such a tragedy. It has changed EVERYTHING and I just can't believe people who keep posting how much better their marriages are post A. How can lying, adultery, lack of trust, exposure to STDs, deceit etc etc lead to a 'better' marriage?

Hmm... sex just for the sex? What does that mean? That you are willing to dump the woman afterwards or what?
Sex just for the sex?
So it's not important
- if she's good looking to you or not..
- if she weighs 300 pounds or more...
- if she's being nasty, mean and insulting to you (unless that's your kick)...
- if she smells bad...
- if she reads a book "during"..
- if she screams someone's else's name "during"..
- if she has calls her H to ask him to join in..
as long as she is willing to have sex with you?
Nah!! Of course there is more to it! You need her to WANT you... to make you feel like you're the best lover in the world.. She has to be good looking to you or she'll not be much of a catch.. All things that have nothing to do with sex, but with affirmation/admiration/ego.
It's not because you don't care about ever seeing her again afterwards that it was just about sex.

Breast size is practically irrelevant to me. I admit I notice larger breasts more, so it obviously is not entirely irrelevant, but it is a tiny fraction of what is "sexy" to me. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How can lying, adultery, lack of trust, exposure to STDs, deceit etc etc lead to a 'better' marriage? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because my wife did not like who she had become, and decided to change, with the help of God. Her changes also affected me so much I decided I needed to change, too. Since Harley's thesis, on first read, seemed to be: "it is marital problems that lead to affairs", we examined our marriage and changed that for the better, too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by brownhair:
Hmm... sex just for the sex? What does that mean? That you are willing to dump the woman afterwards or what?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not necessarily but yes, I've had one night stands.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sex just for the sex?
Nah!! Of course there is more to it! You need her to WANT you... to make you feel like you're the best lover in the world.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for telling me what I need.


Sometime sex is sex. I can emotionally detach and just enjoy the pleasant experience. It seems that some can't and have to make it into something that it isn't. Sex is a primal urge; it is not the stuff of romance writers.

I wish I were like John . . . he thinks masturbation feels better than sex. If that was the case life would sure be simpler for me.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She has to be good looking to you or she'll not be much of a catch.. All things that have nothing to do with sex, but with affirmation/admiration/ego.
It's not because you don't care about ever seeing her again afterwards that it was just about sex. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no idea what this means.

<small>[ September 10, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he thinks masturbation feels better than sex </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Physically, yes. Not emotionally. And I MUCH prefer sex.

You never really answered the question of what you mean by "just sex". Though the particular examples given may not resonate with you, the point that you don't want anything further from that person does not negate the possibility that the reason you wanted the ONS was an "emotional reason".

:::::::::There are other emotional reasons one might have sex besides a desire for "a strong emotional attachment". A desire for conquest, for the adrenaline rush of doing something dangerous and forbidden, as an anesthetic to loneliness, for physical and emotional comfort, for the feeling of being desired (many Prostitutes are quite good actresses, as brownhairs post implies), and who knows how many other possibilities are all emotionally-based reasons for seeing a prostitute.

John, none of the above suggest any emotional attachment to the prostitute. It suggests a form of nourisment to the soul. A self orientated activity - that requires a second person's involvement, but not an emotional one. The male is quite satisfied with simulated interest in him and has no confusion that her interest is anything but the payment he provides.

Who, boy...is my writing really that unclear? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> John, none of the above suggest any emotional attachment to the prostitute. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly my (intended) point. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It suggests a form of nourisment to the soul. A self orientated activity - that requires a second person's involvement, but not an emotional one. The male is quite satisfied with simulated interest in him and has no confusion that her interest is anything but the payment he provides. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No argument here, either. BUT, it misses my point, which that it DOES serve an emotional need of the man, or at least affects him emotionally in some way that he needs or wants. "Emotional attachment" is not the only emotional need there is.

All the arguments are good, however I must agree with John, there is no sex with another person that is "just sex".

There are just too many "toys" on the market that could replace any sexual act with another if one only wanted "sex". And the mind is a very, very powerful tool in the act of sex. So masturbation would be more than sufficient, if it were for "just sex".

However people, even those who claim the "just sex" theory need the physical contact with another person for emotional reasons, what ever they may be.

::::No argument here, either. BUT, it misses my point, which that it DOES serve an emotional need of the man, or at least affects him emotionally in some way that he needs or wants. "Emotional attachment" is not the only emotional need there is.

So are you saying that "it was only sex" isn't true because WH wanted sex with OW, so therefore the emotional need was to satisfy his lust?

Who cares? You can be right. It's too academic for me.

AN