I have a question or maybe an issue that needs clarification. It has to do with No Contact. For details on my situation, see the link at the end or look up my recent posts and look for OM contacts Onlywords again (or something like that). Anyway, onlywords, generally likes to go for a 40-45 minute walk several times per week. We have about three or four different paths that can be used. OM has 'reasons' to be on all of these roads, though mainly uses the main road. This main road is the one onlywords mainly uses. Is it considered breaking no contact when they "see each other in passing" when out on a walk? mowing the yard? or anything like this?

The reason I ask, is that onlywords is really struggling with this last episode of "contact." Struggling in that, what is he trying to do? Why is he trying to punish me? Or is this his attempt to 'hold onto her?' For whatever reasons, she won't give up this path of walking. She says she refuses to let him control her. But yet, she can't see how disrespectful this is to me. Plus, if she'd just change routes, she'd be less likely to see him (yes, she'd have to walk past a place with this one dog, but it's not like it'd bite her).

I need some help trying to communicate this to her. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks.

Go buy a used treadmill.

I don't mean to be short with my response, but she must realize how damaging this contact is to the recovery of your M. If this contact can be avoided it must be avoided. Any excuses for why she must go that direction, IMVHO puts the BS in a very insecure place mentally. If your W agreed to change her route it would be a great indicator of her willingness to totally committ to her M and put the needs of the M FIRST...something she hasn't done a very good job at during her A.

Just my thoughts as I continually attempt to knock my W off the WS FENCE.

FM

FM: Thanks for the reply. I was able to get some help out of your other thread and didn't want to thread jack it, so that is why I started this thread.

W just left about 10 minutes ago for her walk today. Took the youngest along. So even if OM is out, now he won't say anything.

She did ask me just before she left why I hated him. Was it what he did before or since being outing that was my cause to dislike him. I believe I said both. But the thing about him that pissed me off the most was how he could just hang out with me (during the A, when I didn't know) and just act like everything was normal. I just couldn't do that. I can remember sitting out back around last Christmas drinking beer with the AH. Of course that's off topic, but I'm just venting here.

Anyway, thanks for posting. I have to go pick up the son from football practice.

RH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Recovering H:
<strong> But the thing about him that pissed me off the most was how he could just hang out with me (during the A, when I didn't know) and just act like everything was normal. I just couldn't do that.
RH </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right! You couldn't do that because your are not a scum bucket! OM is a scum bucket! How could anyone betray someone elses trust, jeopardize a M and family and then show no remorse even in the presence of the uninformed victim? I know name calling isn't a positive enhancer, but the reality IMHO is that OM's actions further illustrate his character and mindset. A person with regret for his actions would duck in the house as your W passed by, if for no other reason, but to avoid conflict and the feelings of guilt they feel now that they've realized all the damage they've caused.

One day hopefully, your W might look back on this and realize the OM's failure to support her return to her M as a big time indicator that the best man/choice/person was her H. Please do your best to keep your actions admirable and do not let OM provoke you into confronting him which may result in a physical altercation. Your actions are your clearest statement of your integrity and honor. Our spouses are still slighly fogged, but I believe underneath these last layers of fog they know we mean well and our concerns are warranted and in the best interest of our M's and families.

Take Care,

FM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Recovering H:
[qb] But the thing about him that pissed me off the most was how he could just hang out with me (during the A, when I didn't know) and just act like everything was normal. I just couldn't do that.
RH </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right! You couldn't do that because your are not a scum bucket! OM is a scum bucket! How could anyone betray someone elses trust, jeopardize a M and family and then show no remorse even in the presence of the uninformed victim?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H is a "former scum bucket" ..... His A was with the wife of his life-long friend,they grew up across the street from each other, and their moms still live across the street from each other... My H ate meals in OW home, during the A, breaking bread with OW and her H and their kids....

so I have an opinion here....

If you are saying the line of demarcation between scum and non-scum is remorse .... I think remorse is not enough.

Being sorry for past actions is not enough.

A respect for boundaries is required.... knowing where one is no longer welcome, knowing where one is and will always be considered an ill wind....

One must deliberately avoid causing stress or reminders .... by respecting boundaries.

So.... if OM again speaks to or gestures to Onlywords .... the boundary has, once again, been breached.... and a response is required.

The response must be swift, deliberate, and calm. And must show a united front representing the strength of the bond between you and Onlywords. Whatever is necessary to make the OM very uncomfortable. OM's comfort must be disrupted when he crosses Onlyword's boundary. Every time. Without exception. Like training an animal by installing an electric fence.... it only works if the electricity is left on.

Enforce your boundaries .... by giving very unpleasant consequences for deliberate breaches... OM actions that smell of disrespect for your necessary boundaries.

Pep

I just love pep's posts.She is so on target just like ark. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Yes,it is not nearly enough to be saying you're sorry but the ACTIONS need to follow.It is clear Onlywords is trying to still have some contact with this OM and vice versa.All she is doing is hurting you and herself by ALLOWING this pathwalking to continue.They both KNOW what they are doing.There is a payoff.

This is a CLASSIC example of where the WS needs to knock it off with the bad behavior and take a cue from you that it is no longer acceptable or appropriate that she is seeing this homewrecking OM on ANY occasion especially one that is PREVENTABLE.Geeze.

Taking along your son is not the answer either.She needs to go and walk someplace,anyplace else AND she should consider changing her schedule if this OM has her pegged for the times she is out on those paths.OM cannot be on all paths at all times on all days.

Has she been here at MB lately? Maybe we need to give her some gentle advice again.

O

P.S. "Do or do not.There is no 'try'"- YODA

<small>[ September 11, 2004, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>OM's comfort must be disrupted when he crosses Onlyword's boundary. Every time. Without exception. Like training an animal by installing an electric fence.... it only works if the electricity is left on.

Enforce your boundaries .... by giving very unpleasant consequences for deliberate breaches... OM actions that smell of disrespect for your necessary boundaries.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepper is soooo cool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

How you do this is yet another question. Whatever you and you W decide make it a combination, tag team effort, this will further rebuild trust and security for RH. This is a great time to utilize the POJA.

All: Thanks. After I got back, onlywords asked me why I went the main way (because I thought she would walk that way). Turns out she went the other way (the way less used by OM). (Maybe she was listening? Not sure though.)

Pep: I almost emailed you with this question. Initially, I didn't want to 'risk' onlywords reading it here. If she sees it, that may help reinforce it, although I don't think she's been lurking much at all lately. At least if I mention any posts lately, she hasn't already read them which leads me to that belief.

Also, I can really relate to the electric fence analogy. We'll just have to figure something out. We've came to the conclusion, that telling OMW is worthless. We'll have to work together to figure out what the best response might be (POJA). I know that before the A, I probably wouldn't have been as persistent in asking what's wrong. I asked last night and she said nothing. Though I knew there was more. She went to bed. I came down and sent her a questioning email, just reinforcing my love for her and my desire to help. She came upstairs this morning and laid down on the bed and tried to talk about it. About 1/2 way through she said, "you're not helping." To which I replied, that "you're just talking is helping me." We prayed a little, hopefully, things will get better.

FM: The W does not appear to have good feelings for OM. In fact, just the opposite. She has had feelings of revenge towards him lately. I know from experience that that isn't good. But it is something we will have to work through.

O: I don't think the W really desires contact with the OM. I just think she is stubburn. Of course, OM is stubburn too. In fact, he told us that he would do what he wanted. In fact, if he passes us in his car or the bus, and he felt like waving he would. Haven't had to deal with that much yet, though I expect I will one of these days. He may just get a one fingered wave.

One other thought. When I called OMW last week or whenever. She told me that 'they' saw onlywords duck back in the garage when they went by. (Which is true, if she's near the door and can see them/him coming she will step out of sight.) But there was something OMW said, and right now I can't remember quite what it was, but OMW didn't like that she was 'hiding.' I've told onlywords to go about her business and not worry if they go by, just don't look at them or acknowledge them. I think she thought it was easier to hide. OM once called her blonde groundhog and that is now coming back to her-as a trigger. She thinks he's trying to provoke her into hiding at her own house. One of the issues early on was that OM saw onlywords out and he thought that meant she wanted to talk to him. I think he may still think that. But by talking to onlywords (or our dog), he shows great disrespect to his W and she doesn't even realize it (but then that's not for me to worry about).

ugggghhhh...why did life have to become so complicated? Help us God!

RH

Hi RH,

Maybe you can answer a couple of things for me.

You said in your original post that for whatever reasons,she(onlywords)won't give up this path of walking.Does she have an explanation? Is it that she doesn't want to be made to walk somewhere else or is it that she is getting some kind of payoff,like Dr.Phil says.You don't keep repeating bad behaviors/habits if there isn't a payoff.Even one that may not seem so evident to the rest of us.If she is truly bothered by this OM then why is she putting herself in harms way? It is a very natural and necessary response by taking action to remove yourself or prevent your self from repeating actions that cause pain.Like not touching a hot stove right? We all know touching it while it's on is a no no and hurts.

The other thing is what do you mean by stubborn? Do you think that WW being stubborn is why she refuses to stop taking a path that she knows OM may be on at any given time? Isn't this a prefect time to break old habits and prevent further pain and suffering if she really wants your marriage to survive and for you both to get beyond this hurdle you have to keep jumping over every day?

You obviously cannot stop this OM from driving down your street perhaps taunting or looking at your WW if she happens to be out but the big difference is that she DOES have control of this walking path issue.

Onlywords can take her life back by making the choices that empower her,you and you TOGETHER as a couple.One is standing tall and continuing on with whatever she is doing despite OM's drive by's,waves or whatever stunts he is pulling until he gets tired and goes and looks for another victim.The other choice she can make is to prevent putting herself in harms way by choosing alternatives to this path dilemma.If she was raped by some man and she knew that the rapist was stalking women in the area,would she not protect herself this way? I know I would. I am sorry for the vivid analogy but essentially,this man has hurt your WW in a very bad way even though she has had feelings for him.She needs to stear clear of him at all costs.

I think maybe a part of her is still interested in the what if's and maybe the what could have beens in a demented kind of way.Does that make sense? If it were just some stranger than I don't think the pull would be there but this guy is someone she had feelings for and more.

Lastly,when you were both on the bed and she said to you,"you're not helping" Did she elaborate? Did you resolve anything? Did she take off? This would have been a perfect time to decipher just what she is feeling in that you aren't helping.What does that mean and then how CAN you be helping more? Also,I used to make a pact with my WH that we would never go to bed with anger or unresolved issues.This is how people start to resent one another,let anger brew and entitlement starts to come into play.

You know,to me it is so easy and the answer is right there but we keep prevaricating.I do not fully understand why people are withholding information and feelings from the one person you commit to deeply within a marriage.

"Life isn't complicated,we make it that way".

O

<small>[ September 11, 2004, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

O: Let me try to answer your questions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does she have an explanation? Is it that she doesn't want to be made to walk somewhere else or is it that she is getting some kind of payoff, like Dr.Phil says. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she has an explanation. To me, it made sense, although I still requested that she try another route (today she did). Basically, the main route has more traffic on it, so therefore he should be less likely to stop and talk -other people could see him. However, that is only for half the route. Plus, it is generally flatter than the other routes, but that is relative term, because there are hills every where here. Is there a payoff? If so, I don't know what it is.

She doesn't mind walking by him, it was just when he talked to her. For the most part, she ignores his gestures, but when he talked to her and then told his wife he was talking to the dog, just bothered her. Part of it might be that she doesn't see him paying any penalty. (But that should not matter, as that isn't our business.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Like not touching a hot stove right? We all know touching it while it's on is a no no and hurts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, absolutely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what do you mean by stubborn? Do you think that WW being stubborn is why she refuses to stop taking a path that she knows OM may be on at any given time? Isn't this a perfect time to break old habits and prevent further pain and suffering if she really wants your marriage to survive and for you both to get beyond this hurdle you have to keep jumping over every day?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stubburn, in that she doesn't want to be 'controlled' by OM or OMW. That is what I was trying to get her to see, but she has to see it for herself. Just by this happening, there is a feeling of being controlled. Might be why she took the other route today. (Or at least I'm hoping that's the reason.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Onlywords can take her life back by making the choices that empower her,you and you TOGETHER as a couple. One is standing tall and continuing on with whatever she is doing despite OM's drive by's, waves or whatever stunts he is pulling until he gets tired and goes and looks for another victim. The other choice she can make is to prevent putting herself in harms way by choosing alternatives to this path dilemma. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she was raped by some man and she knew that the rapist was stalking women in the area,would she not protect herself this way? I know I would. I am sorry for the vivid analogy but essentially,this man has hurt your WW in a very bad way even though she has had feelings for him. She needs to stear clear of him at all costs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny you should use this analogy. After he spoke to her and OMW accused onlywords of 'inviting trouble' she felt like she was mentally raped.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think maybe a part of her is still interested in the what if's and maybe the what could have beens in a demented kind of way.Does that make sense? If it were just some stranger than I don't think the pull would be there but this guy is someone she had feelings for and more. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may very well be correct in this. OM is able to talk to about anyone. onlywords still does not have alot of friends around here and it hurts that one she did have used her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Lastly, when you were both on the bed and she said to you,"you're not helping" Did she elaborate? Did you resolve anything? Did she take off? This would have been a perfect time to decipher just what she is feeling in that you aren't helping. What does that mean and then how CAN you be helping more? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She didn't have to at that time. I think she had done all the talking up to that point and I really hadn't said anything. So my helping was just listening up to that point. I had a lot of thoughts going through my head, I just hadn't communicated them as we lay there. This whole situation at some times feels like a Catch 22. I want to fix it, then she offers and I don't have anything and then the circle continues. Two years ago, I wouldn't have given up and gone and watched the ballgame or something. This morning, I was able to eventually get more out of her and provide a little input. Basically, I think it came down to where I prayed out loud for the both of us and that may have helped.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know, to me it is so easy and the answer is right there but we keep prevaricating.I do not fully understand why people are withholding information and feelings from the one person you commit to deeply within a marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure what the definition of prevaricating means, but it seems easy. Just walk another way. Of course, there are times that I am stubburn and must muddle my way through it too.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Life isn't complicated,we make it that way". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes we doo.

(pun intended)

Thanks so much!
RH

RH, I have given up walking where I used to walk because it was where OM and I would meet "accidentally on purpose" as he drove by. He knew what time I walked on a weekend morning and I also knew what time he would be driving home from work during the week.

The thing is it's a lovely walk along the sea front and I miss walking it but it's something I just can't do anymore. Sometimes I call my daughter and we walk it together.

To me it's one of the fallouts of the A. I've had to give up something I enjoy doing (the walking - not the meeting) to prove I'm serious about our recovery.

I don't know if this helps or not.

Jen

RH,

Thanks for your detailed response.It helps. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

A few more thoughts if I may.

Who actually said that your WW was invivitng trouble? Was it the homewrecking OM? I was a little confused there.It seems like he slips in these derogatory comments now since he didn't get his way and it's revolting.Does the OMW know anything? I know you made an agreement with WW not to tell the OMW but is she the one who made the comment?

Your WW cannot be controlled by OM unless she allows it.We all have the power within ourselves not to be swayed,tempted,coerced or brainwashed by users and abusers.I hope one day she can realize that and feel stronger.It will take time.

By prevaricating I meant avoiding telling the truth or exactly what you/she thinks.If it's one thing I cannot stand is when women say "Nothing" when you ask them what is wrong or what did I do,etc.That is a blanket response that serves no purpose especially when there is generally something very wrong.I just don't understand why women say this,it's useless.Talk ladies!

Also,I haven't followed all your posts since day one as there are so many to try and keep up with but I am surprised why your WW would ask you why you hated/dislike OM at this point.I really do not think WS's will ever understand the gravity that these co-conspirators have on us.I know some people here may not really blame the OP for their involvement in A's but I sure as heck do.It's 50/50 all the way.It stands to reason then that these OP are not very high on our list of worthy people in this world.

My WH knows I loathe the homewrecker so he doesn't dare say a peep or I go off.I will not let him disrepsect me by even mentioning her name in my presence.It's like acid on my skin.

Anyway,I hope for the best with you both.Good luck.

O

Kiwi: Thanks for your input. I'm not sure what else to say. The walk was never really apart of their A. She did change her route today. I see that as a good sign.

Something else that came up today. The oldest daughter wanted to go to the county fair and meet her friends. The W took her, however, it wasn't soon enough for DD. W made a comment about at least you have friends, to DD. (Since then I've been trying to comfort her a little about that. It just made a bad day worse.)

(I have friends that unless I make the effort to contact, I'd never see them. Yes, it would be nice if they made an effort, but they don't. Part of the appeal of OM, was that he sought her out for friendship. They were friends/acquaintenances for about 2-3 years prior to A. Of course he always stopped by where we lived. He's like that. He bops around, stopping in to visit many people throughout the week.)

O: OM's W was the one who said onlywords is "inviting trouble" to me on the phone. She appears to be backing up her man. That is why onlywords and I agreed that we wouldn't bother to waste our time telling her if OM contacts anymore or not. She was the first person I told about the A when I found out.

What happened two weeks ago, was that onlywords took Rover on her walk. As he (OM) saw her coming, he pulled tractor to edge of field as she approached, appeared to be working on his tractor and as she got there he said "Is that Rover? How's Rover?" He told his W he was talking to the dog and that it scared him (it weighs about 18 lbs. soaking wet and if a burglar tried to get in our home would probably lead him to the safe and give him the combination, that's how friendly he is. If he was really talking to the dog, wouldn't he have said the dogs name first? Plus, how many dogs know how to talk? But that's all beside the point now.)

The question about why I hate him was her just trying figure me out. She didn't initially hate him, though is growing more and more to hate him. In fact, one of the things he told her before the A ended was that one day she would hate him. (He's a serial cheater, though this is the first time his W has found out. At least she hasn't told us that she believes any of the other. But that's a story for another thread.)

Well, I need to get going. Thanks all.

RH