Just found out that what I thought was an EA is actually a PA. Started plan A this week but it is killing me. 2 year old daughter in the picture. W is separating from me in Oct. and taking our daughter out of state. This happens to be where the OM is. She has now lied twice to me. I'm thinking of telling her I don't want to talk with her before she leaves in Oct. until she comes clean with me or agrees to cut ties. I found out this info from checking her secret email that I broke into. Would this be a major LBer??? I am not sure I have to stomach to see her every day and know that she is lying to me. Please help, Jmash

Hi jmash,

I have to go and read your other posts to get the bigger picture here BUT one thing stood out and I need to address it right away.

Under NO circumstance do you let your WW take your daughter out of state.She is not legally allowed to do this without your permission so do what you must to nip this in the bud right away.Discuss with your WW that this is NOT acceptable ESPECIALLY to be in the presence of THIS OM who is involved in the destruction of your marriage and family.Do not let this man near your daughter.

Be back later.

O

Actually I have talked with a lawyer and there is nothing I can do about her leaving with my daughter unless she refuses to come back. My only legal worry is that she establishes residency out of state and then files for divorce. That is a long way off but still worries me. Last night we talked for 3 hours and she finally opened up. I feel worse, but better. Basically, and I'm sure many people have heard the same thing, her head is saying to stay in this stable household where our daughter has a good life, buy her heart is telling her she is unhappy. She also said her heart is telling her to pursue the relationship with the OM. Obviously this kills me, but I know my wife best and I think if I push the issue, it will push her away. We talked about drawing out a plan for our separation, when we would talk on the phone and when she would come back. She promised she will come back, but it may be to tell me its over. I just don't know if there is anything I can do but let her have her time and show and tell her that I'm always her for her. The positive is that we finally talked and she is committed to continue counseling. Does all this sound crazy or is it common? We have 4 weeks until she leaves and I'm not sure I can stand any more lies and secret communication, which I'm sure will continue. Even after our good talk, she will talk with the OM today. Please any thoughts or advice is badly needed. Jmash

jmash, okay, you've talked to a lawyer, you've got that covered. Now, Plan A to the hilt! I know you're devastated, I know you are in extraordinary pain, but WS is living in fantasy land.

You can get your M back, but you need to be strong, for yourself, for your daughter and for your M. When the A ends, your WS will thank you for standing by her. My FWS did (and still does).

You need to be the lighthouse, you need to be the calm in the storm, because your WS does not know what the heck is going on. I hear over and over again, the regret that WS' feel about leaving their families. They think this is best for everyone involved, but they are in the fog.

Please take care of yourself. Are you going to IC? You have 4 weeks until WS leaves -- a wonderful opportunity for Plan A.

Tell WS that you know she is unhappy, but you know of a way where you will both be able to be happy in a wonderful new M.

Let me assure you, I heard the exact same things. I'm glad you were able to talk of plans for separation without LB'ing. That makes the WS feel good. She needs to have a place where she finds comfort, acceptance, not arguments. Show her that she belongs at home.

These next 4 weeks are going to be very difficult, but others here have gone through the same thing. I went through 4 1/2 months of it. Thank your lucky stars, she has agreed to continue counseling. The best thing you can do is to keep her talking. It's okay if she lies about the A, because you know the truth.

jmash,

I am surprised that your lawyer said there is nothing that you can do with regards to your WW taking your D across state lines.

You,and your WW for that matter, have NO idea what this OM is really like and your WW is about to possibly/likely expose this young girl to him.Think about that for a second.Your D is only 2.5 years old.She is unable to make any decisions for herself so it is up to your WW if she gets to leave with your D.Well,as we all know,your WW is on selfish mode and irresponsible right now,looking out only for her own well being,not that of your D.I cringe when I think of the few other folks who were in your position whose WS's took the child away to be in the presence of the OP and it went badly.

You do have to let your WW do whatever she needs to do for whatever void she is trying to fill but that does not have to include your D.You cannot change your WW but you can change yourself and take care of yourself.These WS's are acting on emotion,not reality or reason.A dangerous combination.

If I were you,I would seek a second opinion about your D and put your foot down.It's one thing to be visiting relatives but your WW is just bringing your little girl along for the ride.And it's WRONG.Please protect her in any way you can.WS's lie so you cannot afford to believe anything,such as,"I promise I am coming back", from your WW.

Lastly,counseling when a spouse is involved in an A is a waste of time and money.Right now,your WW may just be trying to appease you and look better in everyone's eyes but it's not going to help IMO.It is crazy,just like all aspects of this mess.

O

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Thanks lbc and O. I agree with you both. But how I am supposed to tell her that I think she is letting her emotions make decisions for her? That her taking our D is her justification for leaving? I want to tell her that her decision to continue contact with the OM and separate from me while going back to him is a biased way to make her decision. She owes it to me to be biased towards our family. Then if it doesn't work out and she truely has cut ties with the OM, only then is it a fair decision. If she separates from me, separate from the OM also. Obviously there is a trust issue and I can track their communication or lack there of to some degree. Can I tell her that this is how I feel without a major LB???????

Jmash

Also, I know that exposure of an A can be the right choice. I just feel like if I expose it to her family, it will back fire on me. Her feelings towards me are already shaky, and I'm afraid that this may push her over the edge. She has already admitted to being embarrassed by these events, thats why she hasn't told them. Please help. Jmash

Hi again,

Ok.A few notes.First,you can tell your WW your feelings at any time and that is not a LB BUT if you screamed at her and were disrespectful,that is an LB.See the difference? A's are very emotionally messy and painful,not to mention UGLY,situations and there's no reason for you to have to hide what you are feeling.Don't tippy toe around your WW but do be calm and as respectful as you can.You can say that her seeing OM is hurtful to you and you would like for her to stop seeing him and work together toward a better marriage etc.Being open and honest with her is ok.Don't try to be overly judgemental but rather use *I* statements instead of "you".When you use the word "you" it can put her on the defensive.For example,"I feel hurt that you are leaving when I would like the chance to make our marriage better for us and our daughter".

Next,it is a common misconception and fear that exposing an A to everyone within the blast radius is a huge blunder and can push the WS away and hurt your chances for a recovery and so on.But,the truth is that you are only keeping her secret,supporting the adultery,encouraging the adultery,protecting your WW from any fall out and protecting your WW and the OM.

Exposure is KEY to helping end the A by shining a big light on the ugliness of it and by dismantling the wall of secrecy.Anyone that can possibly put pressure on the two of them to end the A is someone you want to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth to.Will they be mad? As sure as the sun shines but that's just a side effect.Of course they will be mad.You have taken steps to pull the two of them out of the shadows and into the light so they can start feel the effects of their decisions.Exposure is one way.You have to stay strong and start leaking all this vital information.As an example here,when I first found out about my WH's A,I immediately told my SIL who I am very close to.She in turn told my In-Laws who have been as supportive of me as I could ever have dreamed of.If I kept this all to myself,not only would I have not had such incredible support and care,but my WH would have delighted in the fact that no one knew his secret and feel good about that.

When people that the WS loves know about their bad behavior,guilt can show up and start poking at their hearts.If they live in a bubble floating over Fantasy Island without a care in the world and no one holding them accountable for their selfish behavior,they could fly around in La La land for "eternity".Real life isn't like that though as we all know.Eternity isn't forever in the world of relationships and sooner or later,the bubble bursts or comes crashing to Earth and everything that WS's forgot or refused to acknowledge seeps in to their lives again.

Now back to your daughter.You have a right to say and to fight for her safety,stability and care.I would suggest that you gently but firmly state your ground and that removing your D from her home and her surroundings and friends is not something you feel is in her best interest right now and that you are concerned about the OM being with her when you do not know this person.Say statements like that.Your WW has to be made aware that this is not acceptable to you and if it is her intent to pursue this OM and proceed with a relationship then to leave your D out of it as you are still married and this behavior is wrong and should not be assumed to be normal especially around your D.She will be confused and maybe even scared about thsi man which is not something you want your D to go through.Again,statements like these explain your concerns,your responsibilities as her father and also reminds WW that her behavior is *inappropriate.

Does this help?

O

P.S. You are already losing your WW to this OM.Not exposing the A to all families and friends concerned is only going to enable this to get even worse.Make no mistake about that.She will feel embarrassed,mad,hurt but you are in a fight for your marriage and family.Doing nothing is to let it all slip away.

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jmash:
<strong>I want to tell her that her decision to continue contact with the OM and separate from me while going back to him is a biased way to make her decision. She owes it to me to be biased towards our family. Then if it doesn't work out and she truely has cut ties with the OM, only then is it a fair decision. If she separates from me, separate from the OM also. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell her exactly what you wrote above. Just tell her your feelings and the facts of the situation. Just ask for another chance. Ask her what she would need to see in you to give you a chance. Ask her to remember what you were like in the beginning of your relationship. Ask her to remember what the ex was like at the end of their relationship. She will probably say he has changed. Well, then that means you can change, too. The only difference is that your daughter will have her parents in love with each other in the same home.

Tell her that your goal in all this is to make sure she is happy.

BUT do not make the deal that if she separates from you, she has to separate from the OM. Even though you will know if she contacts him, the thing is she will. You want to know what the contact is while she is still living with you.

BTW, we went to MC while the A was ongoing. The first thing our MC said was that the A had to end. But it's a safe place to be and express some of your feelings.

I also didn't expose the A. FWS told his parents, though. Not sure if this was the way to go, though. I know that he and my family would have had a hard time after the A, but then they have a hard time dealing with each other now, as it is.

Before you do anything else, make copies of the email. Then,tell her what you found, and how. she will be angry. Tough. Then, and I mean the same day, tell anyone you think might be able to influence her. Parents, friends, co-workers, the OM's family. Tell them she is having an affair and you would appreciate any help they could give you to encourage her to do the right thing and work on her marriage, and not break up her family. Tell the OM you know, and you would appreciate it if he would have no further contact with her, to let you work on your problems without interference.
Read this Is this approach guaranteed to work? No, but it is your best chance.

An yes, get a second legal opinion. It is possible you must file for divorce or legal separation NOW to preserve your parental rights. If so, do it. Just don't let a lawyer talk you into doing more than is necessary, but do what is necessary.

What is the background of the OM? Any criminal past, any prior RO history? Can't you pursue custody due to her abandoning the family unit?

Sounds like she is using the child as a hostage for her A. What is your area's laws about adultery?

Check your options out with your lawyer. You maybe able to block her from taking your daughter.

JMHO,
L.

Thank you very much everyone for your posts. I really want to expose this to her parents because I have a good relationship with them. I think if they find out from me first, it would be better. First, I want to run it by our MC since she knows my W as well. I did tell my W last night about how I feel her emotions are making a biased decision and how I think she owes it to me to be biased towards us. I got a typical response. "it feels like your telling me what to do". I could see the FOG in her eyes.

When it comes down to the last week before her leaving (assuming I have exposed the A), I was advised by a lawyer for me and my WW to sign a written agreement and a date for her return. Also, a financial discussion should take place. I don't want her going out for drinks with her buddies at the wedding on my dime. I'll provide money in her account strictly for my D's care. If W doesn't return by the date agreed upon, I then would have legal rights to file for separation and could legally make her return our D to the state. I main thing I learned is that I have time to decide what to do.

One last thing, and I think I know the answer. I believe there is an EA taking place, but not a true PA, just a kiss. I think for sure it will be an PA even though my WW told me she would never do something like that, that may totally dissolve the marriage (yeah right). Do the exposure rules still apply for an EA? I don't want to act too soon. Thanks, Jmash

I believe there is an EA taking place, but not a true PA. I think for sure it will be an PA. Do the exposure rules still apply for an EA? I don't want to act too soon. Thanks, Jmash

I would definitely like to have an answer to this last question from Jmash.

jmash,

Your WW is about to leave the state WITH your D for purposes about as sinful as they can get.But the big red flag flying here is that your WW is about to ENDANGER your D.Yes you may have signed some legal papers about a return date but I am sure no where in there is there anything written about your D's safety.

What if your WW decided to go out for a minute to the store and leaves your D in the "care" of this OM? What if she forgets entirely about her needs while attending to her own with the OM? What if,and I hope to God not,she sleeps with this OM and your D is in the next room? Don't you see? There are a thousand scenarios that could happen while she is away with your D and your little girl has no protection.What if this man is a pedophile or an abuser? Really,do you know one concrete thing about him? If you don't then you have a responsibility to protect your D.

If I don't know the parents of one of my daughters friends and they want to sleep over,you bet I am at the door step introducing myself while taking a look around at the home to see if my D's would be ok.

Also,exposure applies to any inappropriate relationship our spouses are invovled in while married which of course include EA's and PA's.You want to expose especially now before it gets worse and it still may.Your WW's statement that "she would never do something like that" is of course,another tactic to try and protect herself and pull the wool over your eyes.We have heard THAT so many times before.How do we know this isn't any different? Because just about everyone on this board comments on the same, almost exact, statements WS's make.They follow what we call "The Script".It's eerie just how unique they AREN'T even though they think what they have is special.

*Exposure IS something you want to do right away,not months from now when it won't have the impact you need it to have.

Hang in there.

O

Octobergirl, you are terrific. Actually, my D will be staying with my inlaws. That doesn't mean that my W can't slip over to the OM's place whenever, which I know will happen. The OM has met my D, and you are right, I don't know a thing about him besides he was my W's very serious boyfried when she was 16 (now 32). He was 24 at the time (now 40). Even though this was illegal, her parents actually liked him alot. He is a superind. of a school district, something that scares me since my wife is a teacher. I'm sure he could get her a job at least subbing very soon.

I really don't think I can stop her from going or stop her from taking my D. As I said, I may have to play my final card a week before she goes with some sort of legal action. You are right about my D's safety. However, exposure to my W's parents may cause her to leave earlier. My legal timeline may have to be moved up. Thanks for listening. Jmash

Golly,thanks for the nice comment.lol

Well,I am glad that your D will be with your In-Laws.That is better than wondering if your WW is staying with the OM or at a hotel or who knows what.I hope your WW will leave your D out of this and let her stay with her parents out of harms way.We actually had a BH here once whose WW ran off with the young D and ended up at a hotel with the OM and things went very poorly after that.It was bad,we were all really concerned.He has since left the board I think.

Since your In-Laws already know this guy,that would be a great time to expose to them about your WW's actions.If you approach them with the idea that you love your W and that you want to work on the problems in your marriage but you can't do that if she is leaving you but you would appreciate any help they could give and that you are concerned about your D's exposure to this man,etc,etc,that may help.

If they know *your intent,they may at least get your side of the story straight because I am sure your WW is going to give her ones sided explanations if she hasn't already.Hopefully,they aren't the types to ignore bad behavior and tell you they just want their daugther to be happy.There are many here that have had less than stellar results trying to get any support from WS's family members.It's sad but it happens.

When did your D meet this OM or rather when did he meet her? Were you there at the time?

Also,you have legal rights despite the potential of your WW deciding to stay where she is headed and start a new job,etc.Most judges do not allow one parent to move out of state if it interefers with visitation.Your WW would have to haul it back home and then that throws a monkey wrench in her plans.Anyway,time will tell if she tries a stunt like that.

Isn't this fun? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well,you're doing alright.I know it's hard and things don't always go as we would like and things aren't always straightforward either.Continue to be as calm and "pleasant" as you can.Fill some needs when you can before she leaves.If you do sign some legal agreement with your W then be sure or ask if you can put in some restrictions on the D being exposed to OM.I know where I am that I could have received an order from the court barring the homewrecker from seeing my children since we are still married.It differs from state to state I think but it would be worthwhile talking to your lawyer about.


O

The OM supposedly met my D at a playground. At least that is what my W says. I am thinking of calling one of her brothers and asking him for advice. He is the most distanced brother from her but still has a good relationship with my W and IL's. I'll probably ask him for help, and also what his parents would do if I told them. I feel like this may be the last straw that makes my wife leave. And if she does, then I call all her brothers and her sister. My odds of saving our marriage may be better with this extreme exposure than if I sit back. What do you think??? Jmash

Hi again,

I know that you may be feeling that exposing isn't the right path but if you ask any seasoned MB'er here,they will tell you the same.The odds of you saving your marriage where Infidelity is concerned are pretty low(something like 2/3 rds of marriages end in D if I remember correctly) and it's sobering,even Dr.Harley has mentioned that.But,if husband and wife are BOTH committed to repairing their marriage together and have the proper tools and counseling to do so,there lies the best chance.

Like so many of us here though,we are the only ones fighting for our marriage while our WS's are off in Fantasy Land starting new lives.It sux and it hurts big time but thems the breaks.It's taken me a whole year just to be able to get through one day without crying at least once.

Now,regarding the WW brother.This can be tricky.The idea behind exposure is to tell everyone who may influence your WW in one big swoop,not dribs and drabs,one person here,a few there.Families are funny.You get anything from complete support to complete denial and everything in between.If you tell this brother about what his sister is doing,what's to prevent him from taking her side and telling the family that you're a liar or trying to hurt her? Are you close with this man? Would he really understand and support you? What if he says "Well,I just don't care what she is doing.I don't talk to her much anymore".You've got a problem.

You need to get all the info out first to all of them before they start talking to each other and false information takes a hold.I have seen this happen before.If you make a date to tell everyone your truth and get it over with,you can then feel comfortable with the knowledge that you have explained your side of the story and your desires about the marriage and family and then you can sit back,let it all sink in and see what response you get,don't leave it up to chance.Does that make sense?

Will it push your WW out there faster to her destination? Perhaps.But the sooner you get this done,the sooner you can concentrate on the other parts of the plan.You have to brace yourself that if your WW decides that she wants to move in with this OM,that Plan B is going to be next and that is tough but necessary.But,you'll cross that bridge when you come to it.

O

P.S. I feel like I am hogging this thread,so if you want some other advice,please don't be afraid to call out to some of the "old timers",wise and expreienced,supportive people who have been here a long time(Pepperband,ARK^^,WAT,JL=Just Learning,2long,MelodyLane,etc)

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

I think I understand but I have only been plan Aing for a week. I know that exposure is part of plan A but I'm afraid it will make her pack her bags and leave tomorrow. Then what, am I automatically in plan B. Her family has always been bad with difficult issues. They like to sweep things under the rug. Unfortunately, this works against me. I am going to think about my options and the worst case scenario that could happen for each. I also want to talk with a lawyer again. Thanks, Jmash

One more thing. John mentioned to show her the emails I have intercepted. For now, I want to keep these in my back pocket because they are my only inside link to what actually is going on. I figure if I expose the A to her family and they need proof, I can forward these to everyone. Sounds devious to me but I am starting to feel angry rather than depressed. Any more thoughts on this issue would be great.

Jmash