I have chilled out in the last 2 hrs., so you all won't get my most venomous vent. However, I am still feeling angry.

After d-day H immediately began IC. His therapist also specializes in adolescents. That's good, because the similarity between a WS and an adolescent is uncanny. His C told him not to tell the boys about the A because if they didn't know it would be more damaging for them to know. Unfortunately in the deep pain I had difficulty at times controlling my emotions. There were times I would just sob with H in our bedroom. I know at times my anger got the best of me and I probably talked too loud and maybe they even overheard her name. I'm not proud of the fact that I couldn't contain my emotions for my kids.

My 15 yr. old son over the past month has had a real personality change. He has become very disrespectful, and said some very hateful things to us. He met this girl one month ago and my gut was telling me something was off. So this week I called a parent of one of his friends who's son apparently went out with this girl. When I asked the mom about her she said, "Just get rid of her." This girl is very pretty, but very disturbed. The friend's son has clinical depression, but when he met this girl he spiralled out of control. My son is saying very similar things that this kid told his parents. I talked to my psychiatrist who said that she is a very needy girl who knows how to latch on to someone vulnerable.

I truthfully have looked at DS over the past month and thought it is like he is in a fog, just like H was. H's OW was very needy, acted like this girl does with DS, and pursued H when he and our M was in a very vulnerable state. Interesting!

Anyway, after the info I got we needed to really put limits on DS. Reasonable, but for his protection. He freaked out. He said something that indicated to me he at least suspects the A. It broke my heart to know he may be carrying this around. H of course did not want to be blamed for his current behavior. I finally got him to acknowledge that if his son knew he had an A, didn't he think this would have a great impact on him?

Today DS and I were in the car and more anger was coming out. He told me his anger has nothing to do with the girl. He said he's felt like this for months. He then said he started feeling like this a month after December. That is when d-day happened. After I dropped him off all this anger towards H emerged. My thoughts: "OK, so you forgot about me and "F"ed me over. But did you have to forget about your kids? Pretend that your sleezy A wouldn't have any effect on them." It's bad enough that I lost my innocence, but now I know at least one son has lost his. Here is dad is talking to him about values and principles, and he probably knows he cheated on me with a woman he ate lunch with last summer.

OK, any advice on how to deal with this? We have to find out what he knows. This girl is the catalyst I believe that is getting him to get the anger over the A out. Anyone else had to tell their kids about the A? PLEASE, any advice would be appreciated. I just wanted to dump H today and get all the truth out on the table. I know, not a great plan! CV

Dadgumit, CV, I'm trying to stay outta here!

I don't know what I have to say that might help, but, here's what I did.

Right after I confirmed the A at D-Day #1, I called all 3 of my boys (then 25, 23 and 15) to the house, and we had an impromtu "family meeting". All my boys knew something was up. Most expressed casual disinterest during the time I was super spy, and running all over heQQ trying to find then WW.

I told them 90% of the whole story. Their mom was very involved in an A, I was willing to do whatever necessary to help stop it, and go to work on a marriage. I even confessed my ONS in 1988 to them at the time.

They all knew the marriage was less than an ideal one, and had seen some domestic jihads that I wish they wouldn't have seen.

The oldest son helped me with som PI work, doing some drive-bys and installing the phone recorder that blew the lid off. I never shared the recordings with any of the kids, though. My youngest son still lives at home, and lived there when I'd come home from driving in OM's neighborhood, when I couldn't locate my then WW. He saw his dad in a very bad way, wracked with rage, broken hearted, shocked, stunned, and on the cusp of discovery.

My middle son just took an attitude that she (then WW) was just going to do what she wanted to do, and there wasn't much I could do about it.

Oddly enough, all my kids stayed well to the sidelines of what took place. They would ask periodically "how things are going", but never pressed for details, or provided much input. None of them really chastised her, or expressed their feelings to her about the A. I was actually a bit dissapointed in that, hoping of course for their help. But they obviously did not want to choose sides, so I just let that be, and never pushed for their involvement.

I don't think their mom ever apologized to them for the affair, but it's possible she did. I may ask her that one of these days.

Regarding advice for your situation, I'll just offer some peabrain thoughts. Perhaps it's time for Mom and Dad to have some heart to heart talks with the boys. Maybe the truth should be known. Kids are remarkably perceptive, and you and I are pretty sure they know something was sour at home.

Employ some of the Harley's principals, like Radical Honesty and Openess, and POJA regarding actions, activities, and what boundries need to be in place and why they need to be in place. Of course, all of your actions must be POJA'd and RHAO, etc., with FWH. FWH may be reluctant to "fess up" to his kids.

You both need to know what they know, before you know how to react.

It may be a chance for your FWH to "see" some of the collateral damage caused by his poor decisions. This may be a puff that blows the last of his fog away.

I think if you cornered either of your boys and asked them if they knew what was going on, you will get an affirmative response. Expanding the healing process to the whole family may be very beneficial to your healing and recovery process.

I may be way off base, and if so, disregard the advice. If there are bits and pieces that may be of value, then I'd be flattered.

Hang in there, CV! Your success is one of the ones I am always most pulling for!

SD

<small>[ September 11, 2004, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Hi CV,

I am sorry that your son is having a hard time.It was inevitable though that he would have a hard time if he found out any shred of information.There are so many parents here trying to cope with their own pain and you cannot be 100% perfect with how you *want to be around the kids.

This included me.I am a perfectionist,not to a fault though.Everything about my life is very orderly,neat but simplistic.I am not a high maintainence woman but enjoy the good life no doubt.Anyway,one day way back last October when I called the homewrecker's cell phone to see if my WH was with her because he wasn't answering his and I was also going to confront her since this number was all over our cell phone bill,she answered.I asked to speak to my WH and she handed the phone to him and then hell broke loose.

My kids,unfortunately were near by and came rushing in to the family room to see why mom was so upset.Luckily my mom was here and she ushered them out and up to their rooms as quickly as possible but they heard some details.A few months ago, I had made the decision to tell my girls the truth,not too many details but enough so they understood.Some here know how I chose to remain silent,protecting them from the disgusting effects of it all until the very last moment I had to which is when I made the decison to D my WH.

So now,my youngest D has lost her self esteem,has separation anxiety,is uncomfortable being away from home,has trouble sleeping and has been sleep walking which is scary.She talks in her sleep and it is truly heartwrenching.She is actually mumbling about finding my cell phone so she can call her dad who is off cheating with the homewrecker.She misses her dad terribly and cries a lot at night.She doesn't get angry like your son who is older but she is very sad at all the changes.

My oldest is starting to detach from her dad.She understands a bit more about how wrong it is that dad is with some other woman and she said she wants to throw the OW off the Empire State building.She disrespects him and he actually tries to lecture her on respect which she balks at.They are clashing a lot when he is home and I ignore him.Respect has to be earned I tell him which he thinks he has earned just be talking in a calm manner with the kids.It does not erase what he is doing at all though,he fails to see that.

The fact is CV that even though all the cards could be out on the table,it may not make it easier on the kids.You can read all the books about D and better yourself and be in counseling but in the future when these kids are older,they will make a decision on just what kind of relationship they are going to have with their WS parent and a lot of times it isn't very pretty.

Your son will need to find appropriate ways to deal with his anger but it's going to be a rough road.My WH also attached to a needy user homewrecker and took off running with his rescuer type image.She is saying all the right things to him but he is clueless to how he is being played.

Perhaps there is another male role model that your son can confide in? Someone that is neither you the mom or the philandering dad.I also would say,that if your son knows about this A in some way,he is probably stewing in anger,confusion,guilt,blame and who knows what else.Maybe having a heart to heart talk with him sans WH might do you both good.He will have answers and may be able to make some sense out of all the craziness he is feeling and experiencing.Just a thought.

O

<small>[ September 11, 2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

SD, what am I going to do with you? I laughed out loud when I saw your name. Give it up SD. You are destined to be my MB guardian angel whether you like it or not.

Thanks to both you and Octobergirl for your input. I needed to write on here so I wouldn't blast H to the moon. Today the words he told me that OW said when he voiced his concern about the boys played in my head. "Don't worry H, your boys will be just fine. They have had a very stable upbringing, and D is so common these days. They will be fine, and I'll support you." OK, now I want to blast her to whatever the farthest planet is.

All in all I had a good R with my son. I usually am pretty thick skinned when my kids don't like me, but this felt different. I feel like because of H now this boy hates me too. Beyond that, I just feel so badly for him. H feels incredibly LBed if I even suggest blame concerning S. How do I not blame him? He was screwing another woman for months. A woman my boys knew for 4 yrs, and would eat lunch with her when they worked at the FH in the summer. Where the he%% was his head at? OK, I know the answer.

I will think about what you both said. H is going to have to talk to them and see what they know. DA**! This is hard enough for me to deal with. Just one more thing that I wish didn't happen. I felt so overwhelmed the other day. Two years of my dad's declining health, 4 significant deaths last year, and H's A during much of it. Now a disturbed teenager who is acting just like a WS. Plus this girl last April was suspended from school, attempted suicide, ended up in a psych hospital for a week, and is a cutter. Oh, and the other boys dad put spywhatever on his computer because of the IMs (just like an A) and the girl said "I like giving boys BJs in sleeping bags." Do I need or want to deal with this crap now? I swear I really must have been bad in a past life.

OK, I'm done whining! I told my psychiatrist that my choices are door #1, where I divorce H, pull the rug out from my boys' lives, and screw us up financially, or I can pick door #2, where I have to spend at least the next 2 yrs. of my life trying to recover, living with this man who betrayed me. Her response was "At least you have a choice." Octobergirl, you probably can relate to that. SD, I wish I could be like you!
Thanks all, and any future posters! CV

CV55

Your H’s C sucks. I’m sorry but he (or she) does. Don’t tell the boys about the A…so those same boys can just sit and use their teenage minds to extrapolate all kinds of scenarios from the limited info they’re able to glean by watching their parents.

Your kids know about the A. They’ve known probably as long as you have – and it’s a big mistake parents make (especially parents of teens and up) in thinking that not speaking about it or trying to hide it works. It doesn’t. If nothing else, the kids know something is seriously wrong. Why else would mom be screaming at dad or crying in her room??? Because Dad forgot to mow the lawn? No. They see these things and the first conclusion they come to is that there is an OW in the picture. EVERYTHING around them tells them that this is the number one thing that stresses a marriage.

I’m not clear on the sitatuion between your son and this girl other than she sounds like more trouble than he can handle right now and you’re right to try to put some distance between them.

How is DS in a fog? What is he doing that’s fog like?

Believe him when he says his anger has nothing to do with the girl though. His biggest issue right now is that his parent’s marriage is in trouble, he knows theres an OW involved, but since he’s the child he’s not allowed to speak on it, demand answers or anything.

Because its not his business right?

Wrong.

You do need to find out what he knows – and what conclusions he may have wrongly jumped to on his own. You need to tell him the truth – you and your H together. Do not allow your H to speak with him alone. If your H is still in the fog – he will lie to your son. Again. Time for reality and truths to be told.

And let your son get his stuff off his chest. If he wants to rail at your H, let him. He’s at an age that he has a right to do so. If he’s angry at you – he should say so and why too. Right now he has nothing but his conclusions and his anger. His conclusions may very well be wrong for the most part and its that wrongness that’s fueling the anger. He’s unsure and uncertain about his life, his home, his core right now. That would P any body off!

Talk to him and tell him what’s going on. Together. Then talk to him separately. STOP TRYING TO HIDE THINGS FROM HIM. Its not working and its only making him more hurt and angry.

CV, I'm with DadsD with regard to talking to him. In my opinion what he needs first and foremost is assurance that mom and dad aren't divorcing. That may be oversimplified but that's probably all a 15 yr. old is concerned about. I remember what you said about boys hold A's against their dads because of the pain caused to mom but I really believe that isn't the bigger issue. He needs to feel safe first before he can be concerned about how safe you feel. Get him that solid footing by convincing him that you and dad are committed to saving the M. Then you may find he is a little more at peace. Beyond that there is a tremendous life lesson here for him. And that is that all marriages have problems (some bigger than others) but you can survive them. Try treating you H in an extremely loving way in front of your son (and all the time as well, for yourself). See if this helps him come around. My house is as dysfuncitional as they come but everytime they see mom and dad in a drunken knock down drag out fight they wake up to mom and dad sharing coffee together, laughing and talking and are greated with lots of parental love. My son is smarter than me and wife combined (17) and I know he knows but I really believe because he sees no concern about a pending divorce he is ok. There has never been a need to discuss. But in your situation there is a need to at least assure him things are going to be ok with mom and dad. I suppose you don't know that in your soul yet so you may have some trouble with this crucial point. But that's what he wants and needs to hear. I'm sure he can quickly forgive dad if you can. CV, this is critical time for your son. He is putting himself in harms way with this destructive girl. I really believe he will follow your lead with regard to forgiveness. That seems to be a work in my house. Keep us posted.

CV

I know my opinion isn't worth much and I am not a professional. I will tell you what I feel though truthfully. I think you should sit your boys down and tell them the basics. Don't go into detail because it is none of their business. I would simply try to explain that you and Dad have had some problems in the recent months. That you are sorry if it has made them feel angry, sad or hurt. That it had nothing to do with them, nor was it their faults. In the end the most important thing for them to see is that people do hurt other people sometimes, even if they love them, and the best thing that you can do is forgive. I think that it is an education that they cannot learn any place else. It will teach them to forgive. If they see you do it, they will know that forgiving is part of life, just as death and birth is. Now think how easy it would be for us to forgive our SP if we had been taught this lesson when we were young. A's suck big time. And they hurt everyone. People make mistakes and those kids aren't immuned to it. I am sure that eventually one of those boys is going to have a small dealing with infidelity themselves. I know that I did when I was in school. My first boyfriend when I was 14 was seeing my bestfriend after school. I was heart broke. Not nearly as I am now with H. I am sure they will have to deal with this same stuff esp. seeing how it is a major epidemic in our society these days. My bestfriends FIL had an A and her husband wouldn't forgive his Dad until his Mother did. He says that if his Mom can forgive him, so can he and he is in his 30's. I think there is actually a lesson to be learned here. I think the boys deserve some sort of an answer about why things have been so topsy turvy. And get that boy away from that girl! No matter what he is still your baby. He shouldn't be using that thing yet. KIDS! They start so young these days. CV I am praying for you! Watch the skies for signs!


There is a section on this site in the Q&A part about lessons children learn from infidelity. I think I read somewhere about children learning how to forgive in that article somewhere actually.

HINY

CV,

How to tell and when to tell is critical but also let them know you love them. Give your children the reassurance they desparately need. Don't play the silent treatment. Even my 6 yr old was told (in a limited sense). Within 3 months, this little one composed a 4 sentence letter to his dad that blew our minds. It was simple and cut to the core of his heart. The A still hardened his heart a bit but not completely.

My son was part of my support system and I was part of his. We discussed his feelings and small pieces of the A about once a week at first. After the initial few talks, I primarily would let him bring up the subject. Mostly I would ask him how he was doing.

CV, it is wrong to keep our children in the dark. They are not dumb. They know and feel a lot and want to be a part of all family matters that they can be.

Tell w/care and share your love with them. It will help you also.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks All! This sucks! My favorite thing to say since joining MB.

In the beginning of this nightmare I had to do everything in my power to just keep my sh%% together in front of these boys, and do the MB strategy to get rid of the "B". Remember she had to work for H for one month after d-day. Plus his withdrawal was horendous. My SIL who went through this 2 yrs. ago told me what her shrink told her about how to handle her kids. Tell the kids they were having trouble in their M but are committed and doing what it takes to work through the rough time. Something like that. Then let the kids know if they have any questions to feel free to ask. H had a talk with both boys about this. I was not involved. Maybe I was too messed up at the time. I don't remember. Oldest son just said he noticed I'm on the computer a lot.

Anyway, until this girl entered the picture youngest S's anger was not that apparent. Could easily have been regular teenage hormones. And after those 1st few months H and I have not fought in front of them and have actually acted pretty close. It wasn't like we were purposefully trying to hide things, but protecting them if they really didn't know. Well now things have changed.

More on this girl. Her parents are Ded, and her mom is a Lesbian. Dad lives in another city, and this girl is a latchkey kid from what I've heard. Personally I don't have a problem with mom being gay, but I thought it strange that her mom never asked to meet any of the boys' parents. Last week when she picked up DS at our house I told him I was going to the car to meet her. Of course he was mortified. Told him he couldn't go out unless I did. While I was talking to the mom, girlfriend was putting her arms around son to comfort him. A therapist friend who specializes in kids said the message she was giving was "Your mom is a *****. But I am here to comfort you!" More similarity to an OW. OW: "Your W is an ingrate. She doesn't appreciate you. If I was Med to you I would be soooo grateful."

Anyway, H's IC and my friend both said girl is probably trying to prove her sexuality, "I'm not gay", by whatever she is doing with these boys. Also, she and mom moved in to our old neighborhood a year ago. She lives across the street from DS's best childhood friend, who is in a band with DS along with the drummer friend who lives on the same street. Not easy to monitor every move this son of mine takes, let alone this girl.

DadsD, you asked how is DS in a fog? All I can say it is like dealing with the WS. It's so friggin similar. Hormones gone wild. Confused state of mind. Parents (W) don't love me or understand me. GF (OW) understands me and accepts me. You don't know GF (OW). She is really a good person. Blah, blah, blah.

I talked to H this morning. we went out to breakfast after church. We went to the church we got Med in. Haven't been there in a long time and it triggered sadness. He asked what was wrong and I told him that and I was sad about DS. Told him the hardest thing for me is my loss of innocence, and now our kids have to deal with it. His response, "CV, it's a hard world. All kids these days have to deal with a loss of innocence." Me: "H, I'm 49 yrs. old and I know how hard the world is. Yet this A is the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with. Don't pretend this would be something easy for our boys to face." He knows it, but just has a terrible time facing what he did and the consequences.

I read a book about 5 yrs. ago called "Ladder of Years" (I think). This woman goes on her annual vacation with immediate and extended family. The 1st day she takes a walk on the beach. She just keeps walking and walking, and never comes back. Ends up in another town, living a totally new, anonymous life. Times like now it seems like a very interesting fantasy.

Again, thanks to everybody who posted to me. WOE, you hit it when you said I don't know in my soul yet everything is going to be OK. I know H wants our family back. At least I'm pretty sure. On the outside I'm fighting for recovery. On the inside I still don't know if I can overcome this. SD, if you're lurking, maybe if I had had a ONS like you, or the gambling problem like WOE I'd be able to empathize better with the WS perspective. I am not perfect. I just can't grasp betrayal and forgetting about your children. Sorry! I hope I can change. CV

CV, I know this post is more geared about your son but I'm going off on another tangent. This is more of my story that maybe you can take something from. And that something is patience. My W went away this weekend with some new girlfriends. It is good for her as she's never had any female friends. But I packed the Cheese book in her carry on bag. She was skeptical but said she'd take a look at it. Well she was seated beside a retired pro golfer and got talking to him (go figure). But he told her he read the book and encouraged her to read it. Aside from this she asked me about IC while we were laying in bed. I tried to bring her up to speed and told her that IC said we don't connect we simply orbit eachother. She agreed with that assessment. I told her that he suggested a book called "Stop Walking on Eggs". She said I don't know why you think you're walking on eggs. I said it's simply the name of the book. But she said that's also your sign on for MB. I was quite surprised she re-called that. So my point of this is that after 3 years I'm starting to realize that she's not oblivious to what is happening around her. It has been and continues to be a long and difficult journey. But it is sooooo worth it. I know we'll be OK. I suppose I always knew that. And that feeling has seen me through the darkest times and allowed me to be as patient as I have been. If I've been a dormat, I have been a dormat for all the right reasons and it never felt like that. And when it did, I decided on my NC. I just want to remind you again that your H didn't do this TO you. You were just in the way so to speak or collateral damage. So again try to remember H is hurting too. I know my W is. And you are moving forward. Gambling may not have taught me empathy but it certainly taught me addiction. So when I say H didn't do this to you and your first thought is that he kept it up for a year, my first thought is addiction. So after he got in he couldn't find his way out. Try to understand that concept.

As for your son I have never been here and I'm sure it is very scary. There are two different problems. Somehow you have to throw cold water on the relationship. But if you push, he'll pull. So perhaps you invite the girl over for dinner to meet you and husband. Or to hang out at your house etc. If she criticises you as you suspect I believe your son will get very defensive and start to see her differently. She sounds like poison and I would hope that maybe you and your husband could get united on this. It might help son if he sees you and H on the same page about something conerning him. As your healing goes perhaps that's how your son's healing goes. Tough times I'm sure. But hang tuff your family depends on it.

WOE, you are amazing! I'm glad you have that vision that you will be OK. Because you have that vision I think you will be.

There are times that I think H and I will be OK. That somehow we are meant to stay together. And other times I just don't know if I want to be with him. For some reason I have thought of OW the past few days. I actually have pictured her face. Just thinking about her, and picturing H and her, makes me sick. I was thinking today maybe if I pretend we're just going out I can tolerate this whole A crap. I really don't feel married anymore anyway. Maybe if I have that attitude the A won't seem so bad. I know, I'm kind of bizarre.

I understand the whole addiction theory. Today I even thought that H had to be addicted to forget about his kids the way he did. I remember before the A he was so concerned about the boys because 3 of the 4 deaths were very significant for them. Three deaths in a year is a lot for boys their age. So what did H think, leaving their mom would be a loss they'd get over quickly? He had to be screwed up. Yet I still have trouble with what you said, that he didn't do this to me. I feel like he did. I feel like he really "F"ed up our lives. The A is something that I still can't get. I know it was about him and not me. I don't know. I just have this block that internally keeps me on the fence. Much different than you WOE, or SD.

A few weeks ago we were at a party at H's brother's. When we were leaving a good friend of H's who knows about the A said to me, "CV, your H is a good man." I realize I can't connect with those words. I don't think he is a bad man. I just don't admire or respect him anymore. Those are biggies for me. I'm not trying to be judgemental. This is how I feel, so please no 2x4s anybody besides WOE who's reading this.

H and I are very united concerning this girl. We actually are very united in our parenting. Mostly we always have been, except when he withdrew when on the drugs for Hep C, and during the A. So we are a united front. The girl was away this weekend and life was much more pleasant. I'm hoping with limits she'll get tired of DS. H told me he talked to DS today. I haven't gotten the details from him yet, but H gave me the impression DS didn't act like he knew about the A.

WOE, I am glad your W is acting less oblivious, and more interested in you. It will be a great day when she can really walk out of that fog and to you. Thanks for putting up with my less than perfect MB attitude! CV

Hi CV
I've missed you!

Maybe I can shed some light on what your kids are going through because I've been there. My father was in a long term affair with his secretary all through my childhood.

Seeing it from the view I have now, I realize the reality was VERY different than what I thought it was back then.

When my mother found out it was hell. Dad ended the affair but was in a fog for years. Of course I didn't realize then that it was the fog. He was otherwise a loving dad and mom had a hard time being close. Especially when she was devastated.

So what I saw was what he saw...an angry (mean, crazy, etc.) wife; in his eyes his lost OW was his true love/soulmate; mom and dad stayed together for the kids. As a kid I wished they would divorce and (I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS) I thought life would be better if dad married the OW. How tragic that I felt that way!

Unfortunately Mom is no longer here for me to tell her that I now understand what she was going through. That she wasn't "mean" or crazy at all. She was in the intolerable pain that BS's normally feel.

If only both my parents had talked to me (together) about the reality...The foolishness of the affair, the pain they both felt, and the love they had for each other and for their children. I think it would have helped so much. Who knows, maybe I wouldn't have married a man who was destined to repeat my father's infidelity.

My advice CV, only from my own experience, is to talk with your H and frame an honest discussion to have with your kids, together. The details of the affair aren't as important to the children as its impact on the two of you, and on them.

CV, I certainly couldn't disagree with Haywire's first hand experience in this. But it is encouraging that your son may not be aware of the A. But he certainly saw some things to signal conern and that may be at work in this present acting out. Perhaps you should be side by side with H during the next conversation with son. Maybe only to let him know that you and dad are having problems but they will be resolved. His concern would seemingly be divorce. And you're really in a tough spot if you don't feel like you can look him in the eye with a guarantee. I don't think you want to plant a seed of doubt in him. Perhaps frame it that you and H are working very hard together to make sure the family is safe and intact. I'm sure there are other areas on this board that can really hit the target in this area.

No 2x4's, but I really have no problem with the good man comment from a mutual friend. I can tell you my brother that had the 5 yr A is now and has always been my favorite person in the world. Yes, he was different during this time but he was so fogged in it was erie. CV, don't ever lose sight of the fact that this could have been you. If you can't honestly see that then recovery may be very difficult. But look around. SH told me as much as 80% of M's suffer from some sort of infidelity. Obviously some good people contained in those numbers. It's not what he did but what he does that matters. It sounds like he has certainly stopped hurting you. So I suppose that would mean "the healing has begun"(that's actually a line in a van morrison song). Even though the "soul mate" crap is difficult this will surely pass and he'll look back at it as his greatest mistake. I have heard "spiritual connection" and "people come into your life for a reason" etc. The OM in my case would fall over laughing if he ever heard this nonsense. It was nothing to him, so that is the fog. You can also be assured that what's left of the "visions" will fade away completely. Life will get back to normal. It's not so far away. And again the best possible outcome is for your to fall back in love with him. The respect and admiration will come.

Finally, my brother who had the longtermer came at the time we lost my mother to cancer. His W later attributed the A to moms death. I thought it was her rationalizing until I saw a journal that another brother showed me years later. It was my moms pocket calander that showed my favorite brother had lunch with my mom two and three days a week for over a year prior to her death to cancer. I had no idea they were that close. So it wasn't rationalizing at all. It was very, very real and traumatic. My point isn't so much that death justifies an A but rather that things aren't always what they seem on the surface. People can find themselves in very dark places at various stages in their lives. That's when they need the lighthouse.

Thanks Haywire for telling me your story. Except for the 1st few months of intolerable pain, and sometimes those emotional outbursts, I have not acted angry and bitter in front of the boys. Thank God for MB, all the info on As, and the great support of this site. I can't imagine what it must have been like for your mom back then. She must have felt very alone. Your dad too.

Your perspective as a child viewing this was helpful. Who knows what these boys might be imagining? I think we will have to at least acknowledge that we were having trouble and open the door up for questions, if they have any. Keep it simple so if they really don't know they won't need to know the gory details. One day I think I might want them to know the whole truth to help them protect themselves if they ever marry.

I've been following your story, just haven't posted. I hope you are finding some peace in your life. As hard as knowing the truth is it beats living in the dark with all the lies and deception. Thanks again! CV

CV,

How are you doing today? I'm still alive.

You have a tough decision to make with regards your kids. To tell or not to tell . . . that is the question. Let’s face some basic facts. The kids know something is up. They have heard you two fight, cry, argue, etc. God only knows what they have convinced themselves is going on. Do they think that they may be the cause of Mom and Dad fighting? I think they need some answers. They need to know what is happening to Mom and Dad. They need to know why Dad’s “friend” no longer works for him. It will embarrass your husband, and his standing may be diminished in their eyes, but that is just the way it is. Give the kids the answers so they can stop imagining what is wrong. Your kids are mid-late teens . . . they can handle it. I don’t presume to know how much you should tell them, but I think you should put a name to the discord that has been thrown in their lives.

Now, your younger son and his GF. I don’t think you should try to break them up. It just isn’t going to work. Part of adolescence, a very painful part for the parents, is that a youth must pull away from the parents. He must establish his own identity, make his own choices. If you force this you will just drive it underground. Pretend it is an affair and keep it in the open. Invite this “lovely” to family gatherings. Invite the girl’s mom and her GF over for a nice home-cooked dinner. How about a day at the beach? You could have a lot of fun here. . . take her with you the next time you get your hair done. If you are sweet and welcoming she won't get the satisfaction of getting "winning" your son away from the b!tch Mom.

Finally, I know you are sick to death with dealing with your husband’s affair and the mess that came with it. Can you just take a break for awhile? Can you go somewhere for a few weeks and just be alone. I know that it would be hard to do with the kids, but it certainly would be easier than a divorce. I think CV needs some time for herself . . . away from the role of betrayed spouse and mother of teenagers.

You have been talking a fair amount about divorce lately. What are the advantages that you see in divorce? It will get physical separation from you H, but you will still have to deal with him. You will still have all the pain from the affair and now you will have the pain of the divorce too. You would be free to take a new lover, but I’m sure this new man would be carrying his own baggage too. I bet it sound great to imagine not having to face dealing with what your husband did. I just don’t know if divorce will get you that.

WOE, you hit it again. I can't picture myself in the WS role. Actually one year ago I would have been very vulnerable. Even though I didn't know about the A I felt like I was being betrayed by H anyway. He had cut me off emotionally and physically for so long I felt like he had broken our vows. So maybe if the right man would have been around I could have at least gotten into an EA. But I can't imagine it in the circumstances H and I were in when his A began. He just couldn't deal with the stresses of life, and gave me up for the "B". I admit, this is a rotten attitude. I have to be honest that it is what I'm feeling. Trust me that H doesn't have a clue. He'd be shocked to read some of my posts. My actions mostly say I'm into recovery. My feelings just don't match the actions yet.

CN, first an apology to you. You have been one of my best MB buddies over these months. I know I can be brutal in my thoughts about my FWH. I know you are a good man, in spite of your A. As I've said before, It's my FWH"s A that I can't come to terms with yet. I'm one stubborn, closeminded FBS. I'm just not good with betrayal. Not that anyone is, but I just might be one of those folks that ultimately can't do it. I think if we had sucked it might be an easier road for me to take. MY SIL told me a few weeks ago that she knows many women that after years of M just aren't into sex. She said, "That wasn't you CV." I always enjoyed sex with H, now I realize it's not that great. Whatever he was doing with OW those months sure didn't improve our sex life. I just don't feel like anything is special anymore. We talk, spend time together, are affectionate, and yet I have these feelings. CN, after replacing your W with the OW, were you able to help your W feel special again?

Thanks for the advice about the GF. I LOL at your suggestions. Yeh, we'll all have a happy picnic together. I understand what you're saying. He can still see her, it just has to be in groups for now. The other boy's mom actually overheard GF calling her a ""F"ING BI***!" If I overhear THAT, this girl will be in for a surprise.

Got to go see my shrink! Thanks! CV

Hey CV

Why in the world would you apologize to me? I have no sympathy for your FWS or any FWS for that matter. We made choices and we have to live with the consequences. You do not have to forgive your husband. You might not be able to and that is O.K. Adultery is a terrible thing.

Your situation and mine were very different. You were there for your husband, you actively engaged and enjoyed sex with him, you spent time with him. My wife chose not to be around. Too much shopping to do I guess. She has never liked sex, at least with me she didn’t. Mine was more of an exit affair and I just didn’t have the b@lls to finish walking out the door. I was completely done with my marriage and probably thought that the affair would seal the deal. It didn’t. She began to pay attention to me, to come home and spend some time with her children and to stop some of the negativity that seemed to endlessly flow out of her pie-hole. I began to feel guilt and the full weight of my choices.

You said “I just don't feel like anything is special anymore. We talk, spend time together, are affectionate, and yet I have these feelings. CN, after replacing your W with the OW, were you able to help your W feel special again?” I didn’t feel special at all. Sometimes I still don’t. Sometimes I feel like a paycheck and a babysitter. We have a maid, but I do my share of housework too. I don’t know what I did to make my wife feel special after the affair. I don’t think my wife thinks in those terms. I think the affair made my wife realize the depth of my despair with respect to our marriage. She knew she was really close to being a single mom and she knew that that would drastically cut down on her status and free-time (I’m in a pissy mood today, sorry). I don’t think she wanted to stay for “love”, she is much too practical for that. During marriage counseling I told my wife that I would never live like we did before. I would much rather be alone or be raped by a cete of badgers than to go back to the marriage that we had. I don’t think she much cared for our old marriage either, but she sure had it easy.

CV, sometimes I think that it might have been easier if we would have just shaken hands and went our own ways. If we didn’t have kids, we would have. How knows, we may yet. I have pretty much given up on the though of a wonderful, fulfilling, sexually exciting marriage. I think we are going for a stable home for the kids. . . with just enough sex thrown in to make the whole thing awkward as hell. It is kind of like kissing your sister if you know what I mean.

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

OK CN, now that you have thoroughly depressed me, I'm going to have to be a good MB girl and start encouraging you for a change. First off, my H did not think I was there for him. In fact, when I asked him how he could have allowed this A to happen, he told me he didn't think I loved him. I definitely wasn't meeting his needs last year. Darn that dying dad of mine! In H's twisted mind last year he couldn't see beyond himself to realize I was doing the best I could in a crummy situation. To be fair to H I had a lot of responsibility for my dad at a young age. He loved my dad, but he resented how it mentally drained me and thought I cared more for my dad than him. That was untrue, but he felt that just the same. I don't blame him for that. It took it's toll on us. It must have been so wonderful to have this young thing falling all over him.

I also thought we had a good sex life, that is before he got all screwed up with those meds he was on. After the A he couldn't remember what we had. I'm still pissed over that. As far as your desire for a "sexually exciting M", that would be my desire too. Now I'm not sure it's possible after the A. How can I, or your W for that matter, compete with in-love, chemical flowing, passionate sex? Even though I thought we had great sex I'm sure it can't compare with that stage one crap. Could that be your problem CN? OMG, now I wonder if H isn't kissing me because he thinks of me as his sister. Yuck!

I still remember you telling me all the fun you were having with your W when I 1st signed on to MB? What's going on with you? Why all the negative thoughts about your W? Most importantly, are you sharing your discouragement with her? If only H would have come to me last year before this thing with OW got out of hand. Don't let that happen to you CN. Have you two tried to understand why you were so miserable pre-A, and why she was neglecting you?

Finally, maybe it was love that kept me fighting in the beginning of this ordeal, but if we didn't have kids I'm not sure I could have stuck it out this far. H either. It would seem easier to walk away. Start new without any baggage. I'm sure as the FWS you might have the same fantasy. But is that what would really happen? I hear the pickins are pretty slim at my age so I'd probably stay single anyway. Now there will always be some woman interested in you to fill her top need of financial security I'm sure. And then you'd eventually be dealing with the same crap, but it would be with a new person.

OK, I've entered the babbling point. If you aren't happy be honest with your W. Give her the opportunity to meet your needs. Is that possible? Take care buddy! CV