Carlton, I am recently separated from my H after the year from Hell. I won't go into great detail, but I have lost a great deal of self-esteem, endured verbal abuse and have never felt so let down in my life. The person I always thought would be there for me basically just doesn't care anymore. I am very lonely and in need of being loved right now. My goal is to continue to have rapport with my husband in the hopes that one day he can confront his own demons and become the man he used to be.<P>What I am trying to get at is this. If someone like you were to come along and tell me how beautiful I am, how much they loved me, etc, etc, etc (I don't have to draw a picture) it would be very hard for me to want to continue to hold out hopes for my marriage. You see, I know how vulnerable I am right now. Your lady friend sounds as if she is too. As long as you are available to her, she won't have much motivation to work on her marriage, get into therapy, etc with her husband. Not trying to be ugly or cause anybody to get feathers ruffled. Just telling you how it would be if someone like you came into my life right now. <P>The marriage vows are meant to be "til death do us part".

Janie, you KNOW what's he's gonna say, don't you? I can quote it practically word for word ... as I heard the same line of CRAP from the [censored] I was involved with.<BR>

same story..... different actors.<BR>

OR ....<P>Same crap............ different butt.

Sorry I struck a nerve. Next time I'll just keep it to myself. Some of you guys can really be ugly.<p>[This message has been edited by Janie (edited September 17, 1999).]

Whoa, Janie. I didn't mean to make you feel like you shouldn't have shared. Believe me I understand so much more than you can realize.<P>I just want you to know that telling Carlton these things is like telling it to your bathroom toilet ... the response will be the same ....<P>Carlton could care less that you're vulnerable ... that's his cue to move in and conqueor another heart ... destroy another marriage ... I wanted you to realize that the Carlton's of the world live in a dreamland where they think they are "saving" the young damsel from the mean ol' husband ogre ... his response would be that you shouldn't be in that marriage anymore if your needs aren't being met. <P>I understand so very much how you're feeling, Janie. And I'm sorry you feel like that. It's a very lonely place to be. Please don't stop sharing ... I didn't mean to do harm. Please accept my apology.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 17, 1999).]

That's okay. I've had a chip on my shoulder this week. My vacation got cancelled because of hurricane and H accused me of using my debit card for $52.00 worth of groceries out of his account (of course he can't fathom he might have forgotten to write it down). I took it the wrong way without thinking. TGIF!!! Have a nice weekend. I'm going to go home and scarf some wine. Thanks...

That's okay. I've had a chip on my shoulder this week. My vacation got cancelled because of hurricane and H accused me of using my debit card for $52.00 worth of groceries out of his account (of course he can't fathom he might have forgotten to write it down). I took it the wrong way without thinking. TGIF!!! Have a nice weekend. I'm going to go home and scarf some wine. Thanks...

Jamie > Since I will be crucified either way, this is a real Catch 22. If I were to cut and run, and not keep my committment to my lady friend while she goes through this divorce, all of the critiques in this forum will be applauded. " See ? He really didn't care about her, and was taking advantage of a vulnerable woman . "<P>Yet, should I stay loyal to the trust and understanding this dear woman and I have developed, and the divorce becomes finalized while continuing to communicate with one another . . . I am labeled a homewrecker.<P>So how do I sincerely comment on your post ? Go for it . . . <P>Whatever gets you through the night is alright. The "other man" is all part of the healing process. I am seeking a long-term relationship with a woman who is compatable, and if it is real . . . what we have together . . . it will last. <P>If not, then we are all adults and as long as we are emotionally secure enough to accept no one really owns anyone in this country . . . hey ! There actually are alternatives to sitting home with a bottle of wine. <P>I would suggest a personal reference from someone you know, either at the office or church, and just be honest with yourself, and him. No pormises and no guarantees.<P>I think most men cling to their wives because they dread the idea of having to actually shave and go dating again. And maybe most women cling to their men because these same men have put their wives down and suppressed their self-esteem as a way of "keeping them in line " . . .<P>Who knows . .. <P>Jamie . . . if ya can't be with the one ya love . . . love the one you're with . . .

Carlton <P>I have to take issue with your statements. There is absolute truth and right vs. wrong. The idea of 'if it makes me happy it must be ok' is a load of hogwash. Let me make an example: is it ok to be a pedophile? What harm is done if it makes the person happy and the child seems to be ok? <P>Is this arguing using hyperbole; yes to make my point. Why is getting involved with someone who is vunerable any different than a pedophile molesting a child? It is at someone's expense when they are not in a position to think rationally or even protect themself. It's wrong. There are absolute right and wrongs in this universe. If doing what ever makes one happy is ok, then is it ok to steal, destroy, murder, rape? Where are the boundaries of right versus wrong in your life Carton? Are there any at all? Please stop and think about what you are saying.

Zapft > good Lord . . . comparing a man who comforts a friend, and albeit yet divorced woman friend, to a pedophile, murderer, rapist, theif . . . <P>Are you really comparing an adult woman to a child ? Good grief . . . <P>I believe in God, and I believe in the coming day when I will be judged. Not by man, but my Creator. My intentions with my lady friend are not unknown to Him, and we have always tried to walk in the Light. But with the evidentuary condemnation witnessed in this forum, we remain behind the fig leaf of intolerance. Not because of our shame. More due to mutual respect for one another's social and cultural considerations.<P>Marriages fail, and are born again. Marriage buidling can find its strongest foundation in the attitudes that we, as adults, can make informed decisions without a "daddy" or "mommy".<P>I'm 45, and single . . . never married and no kids. Do I really scare you that much as some sort of predator just because I put my career before marriage, and now am ready to retire and am actively seeking a woman who might be more interested in living her own life WITH me, instead of FOR me ? Get over it, man. Today's woman can stand on her own two feet, and they are not "vulnerable" children.

Commitment??????????

dj > Yes, committment. Call me sanctimonious or a hypocrite, but I truly believe in my resolve to remain a loyal and trustworthy friend to, and with, a dear lady who is asking no more from me than I am of her. Despite the logistical inconveniences, which we agree are actually best for both of us . . . we both are realistic enough to accept whatever the future holds for each of us . . . together, or separately.<P>Open and honest dialog is what we have, with no promises or guarantees. Accepting life on life's terms is hard enough without either of us being dillusional. So, yes. I am committed to being her friend regardless of the outcome of their trial separation. You see, it really is possible for a man to become friends with a woman without "consumating" an "affair" with a mutual understanding and often brutal clarity as to one another's needs and concerns. <P>So for what it is worth, she knows I am not going anywhere. <P>So I have put my career ahead of marriage, and now at the age of 45 I am ready to retire and share my life with a special person. From all indications, the way she continues to do everything she can to save her marriage and do what is best for her H . . . no way am I about to abandon the trust we have built. Sorry, I am just not the jealous type. And as always, may the Lord's will be done . . .

Carlton, the worse sins are the ones commited with the belief that we're doing a good thing, without being open to the fact that maybe we are not.<BR>By posting here, it's kind of an understanding that you are willing to try at least to understand that you might be wrong. Or that what you think is a noble cause, is not as noble as you wish to think ( was going to say it was a selfish crusade, but thought better of it ).<BR>Keeping our goals in mind and not let anything else affect them is fine, if at the same time you are willing to review them and open to realize they're might not be as right as we want to believe.<BR>I wonder if as you read more and more stories here, it will give you a better understanding of what you are creating.<BR>I don't need you to agree with me, and I don't have to agree with you, but I can be open enough to listen to you and try to understand what you're going trough, and even find some good things on what you write. By the same token, I would expect you to loose some of the defensiveness that might not let you think with an open frame of mind, and consider your motives and other options that might help your friend without your involvment.<BR>You don't have to suddenly realize I'm right, I don't think I'm the one holding the one truth.But I am open to any options.<P>Regarding your comments to Janie, AFter being so logical puting things down, how come you seem to have the notion that this person is the one that is right for you? Surely after such logical conclusions about being an adult, and emotionally secure, you do understand that love is one of the easyest feelings around. You can fall in an out of love any number of times, and any one of those feelings can have a potential for a good relationship. You're not thinking about the soul mate thing are you? It wouldn't be logical.<BR>I personally don't even believe in it. I do, however believe in choice( the choice of a spouse, doesn't even to be a forever thing, but it should start with that Idea, don't you think? It makes things much more simple.Marriage is a great step, and serious thought should be given to it before making such a commitment, but after it's done,only a few things should be able destroy it: violence and abuse in any form ) Right of choice is fine,as long as it's an honest choice, and I'm not deceiving or hurting anybody. Those values I hold above instant - or delayed - gratification.<BR>It doesn't scare me in the least that you took care of your career before marriage neither that you're seking for a woman that will interest you and will have the qualities you're looking for. What bothers me is that you have to get someone else's woman to fulfill your dream. Can you not find a free woman with those same qualities? it doesn't seem to difficult to me. Or are you too insecure to go where the competition is and prefer this situation that won't really bring you any competition other than the H?<BR>Maybe I am being to harsh. <BR>And there are things in which you made some sense, I just have a problem with this new thinking that it's o.k. if it makes us happy, without considering anythign else. Call me old fashioned, but it ressembles selfishness to me.<BR>Oh well... we can call it what we want.<BR>By the way.. believe me, jealousy is not my type either I do believe that although we can owe any material thing we might want, a person is never a possesion. However, I lived enough to understand that life is not always that easy and that difficulties create the "vulnerability" that Janie was talking about. Does that mean I don't have the right to try what I can to make my marriage work? The majority of times, despite looking bad, it is workable and the reasons that got people married are still there, just buried under all the problems life has the habit of trowing at people.<BR>DO take care, <BR>It seems as if your mw is already choosing her path, and that it might not include you. Couldn't it be time for you to re-evalutate the whole thing?<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Kat 1<P>Well said.<BR>Hopefully Carlton will do some serious soul searching, and seek the truth, whatever that is. Ask for Gods help in doing what is best for everyone involved, whatever Gods Will is. <P>Carlton has never been married, so he has a hard time understanding what its like to be married, separated, and then involved in the divorce process. He can not feel the roller coaster of emotions on both sides.<BR>From his perspective, everything seems wonderful. Not trying to be hard on the guy, its just that he is seeing everything in a different light. All you were asking of him was, to consider looking at the situation as if you were on the other side. Than maybe your thoughts and feelings would change, or maybe not, but at least he would have considered the other viewpoints.<p>[This message has been edited by M Go BLUE (edited September 22, 1999).]