Tuesday is 19 yrs. The last few I have gone over the top with diamond earings, bed and breakfast getaways etc. This year I simply feel like letting it slip by with only a card. I have never missed one and I don't want W to think I forgot. But I half want to send a message that I'm tired of doing all the work by myself. But also is it only a husbands obligation to celebrate the anniversary? I think I already know the answer to that one. W just assumes that I'll have something planned. In fact she told me that she won't be going out to pool league that night. I just said "oh" and didn't really bite on her suggestion. It's like she's letting me know she's available to be spoiled. I'm just getting tired of doing all the work and feel like taking a break to save some energy for the next round. Kinda like the middle rounds of a prize fight I guess. Just wondering if I'm missing an opportunity to make LB$$$ or am I taking a long overdue step in forcing us to face the fact that all is not well with WOE.

Have you told her any of this? After 19 years you tend to fall into a routine and expect things. If you look at your M you will find it full of rolls that you two have taken during this time. For example, who cuts the lawn? Who does the laundry? Who cleans the bathrooms? These routines make up a M. But that doesn't mean they can't change. However, if you don't tell your wife how you feel how will she ever know?

kloe72, you make a very good point. I created the role I'm in. Not good or bad just the facts as you have said. I feel in my desperate attempt to cure what ails I have raised the bar so high that it's hard for me to keep up. But no, I have not discussed this with her. I simply try to woo her every x-mas, b-day and anniversary in recent years. It is my attempt to make everything better but it takes a toll if it isn't reciprocal. I suppose more than anything I need to be true to myself. If my heart isn't completely in doing something, then I shouldn't do it. And that's where I'm at this year. You are right in how we just fall into these routines and that's not good. It sounds like shaking things up a bit from time to time would be healthy. Maybe I'll have W mow the lawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Thanks.

Hi WOE, now it's my turn. I'm thinking of that little cheese book again. Maybe its time to take a new direction in the recovery maze. Maybe the diamond earings and overindulgence just ain't doing it for your W. It's definitely not doing it for you. Love can't be bought. And maybe it's time for your W to earn some of that love you are doling out.

When I was in school we learned about family systems theory, which has to do with how each member of a family effects the other and the family as a whole unit. If you can picture the family as a mobile. When you pull on one piece of the mobile it throws every other piece off balance. The point is that when one member of a family begins to change, to do things differently, it effects everyone else. Maybe it's time for you to shake things up by doing things differently. At some point your W is going to have to kick in. Maybe she needs to know your LB$$ bank needs to be filled also. CV

CV, that is very true about shaking things up a bit. Consider when I brought home some books that son remarks "probably something on marriage". How sad that that is what I have been reduced to. A pathetic figure chasing and chasing something that is gone. I don't know how son sees it but that kind of comment is telling. It speaks to how predictable I am. I think it comes down to being true to yourself and I just don't see pretending that things are wonderful. W has remarked that why can't I shower her with love in front of over people the way I do when we're alone. That image of adoring husband is important to her. And it has been reality for so long she has grown very comfortable. She continues to call OM still. If she mentions my lack of effort this year I will use it as opportunity for discussion ie. you're still calling OM and how is that trying to heal? The mobile theory is interesting and somewhat scary. Anyway I'll provide update if anything significant happens. Perhaps she'll forget its even our Anniversary.

D-day was over 6 months ago and she is still calling OM? What is your plan? By doing nothing you are telling her that this is alright, that you are accepting of her relationship. You need a plan. What have you done to stop the A? Have you exposed the A to everyone? You guys can not recover and work towards rebuilding your M until all contact with OM stops.

WOE, will you accept a little 2x4 from moi who is still sitting on my own little fence? In other words, not the greatest MBer on this site. On your other post you spoke of having the vision of you and your W being OK. Well, as long as you view yourself as pathetic than you will be pathetic.

WOE, I love ya, but I also am getting a bit aggravated at ya at the same time. WHY are you putting up with your W calling the slimebucket she slept with? I was just reading an article this morning in Newsweek (I think) about the overindulgence of kids. They grow up wanting more and more, and are never satisfied. It just seems like your W is like that. Your W: "WOE, be the loving H. Show everyone how much you love me. Shower me with those gifts. GIMMEE, GIMMEE, GIMMEE." Sorry if I'm being harsh.

In the book "Not Just Friends" the author wrote that often the person who has the A is the one who doesn't give as much in the M. I think it is the act of giving, and the feelings we get from our partners response, which encourages love. MAYBE you need to allow your W to start giving to you. Maybe she needs to know that you have your limits. If you allow her to keep doing what she's doing, she will keep doing the same.

WOE, you have heard this a million times before. You will do what you think is right. It is your life. It is just difficult for me to understand how you tolerate her calling the OM, let alone being around him. You are getting tired of this WOE. You have to ask yourself if your W will ever be a full participant in your M if you both keep going the way you are? Only you have that answer. Why not have some honest discussions about this?

Again, sorry if I was out of line. I'm just writing this because I care about you. CV

WOE- I had to post when I saw your dilemna. My wife and I had number 19 this year and I did not act loving and interested in her during most of the weekend away. This was a mistake for us. My wife was actually looking forward to the time together and I prevented us both from having a good time. In retrospect, I would have handled it differently. You asked earlier if changing things up was a LB, in my case it was.

As for your wife still calling OM, I was not in that situation when we had our anniversary. You have to fix that. But, being angry and disappointing your wife during your anniversary will not cause her to stop contact. If I were you, and the marriage was worth fighting for, I would have a wonderful anniversary so that you at least have a shot at 20. Just my opinion.

kloe72, first I must draw your attention to the fact that this took place 2 1/2 years ago and not 6 mos. A very ridiculous situation indeed. I made mistakes early on after D Day. I was simply too forgiving and didn't demand NC. The problem is that OM is part of a group. In effort to save W embarrassment I thought I could suck it up since she confessed I assumed the worst was over. I have now learned the hard lesson that EA is worse than ONS/PA. She has been in love with this man for 2 yrs or so. He would come to her funeral and I believe that has always been the case. He's single and 11 yrs younger. And no, I still have not exposed. I have drug her into counselling with Steve Harley, entered IC for myself and been a member and lurker here for over 3 yrs. Even before this A began.

CV, no problem with the 2 x 4's. It keeps me sane. I decided on a nice card and a CD of Dixie Chicks. Nothing mushy. I have taken great care of the kids while she is away for four day weekend though. Just like you my W has no idea how bad I am hurting. She just thinks time will heal this. She can't comprehend EA. She figures I am dragging on her ONS all this time. But I do think the fog is lifting slightly as she sees me continually on MB and buying related books etc. Not to mention my NC is having an effect. While she is away there was a party and they extended an invitation to me knowing W was travelling. It gave me an opportunity to again remind W that I meant it when I said never again. There are certainly no winners in this. What does she really get out of this foolish EA with a guy that really isn't interested in her? Perhaps you're right in that I have too much empathy. But I am starting to understand the concept that nice guys finish last. I have 3 great kids and walking away isn't now or never has been a consideration. And I don't think W ever considered that. She just used it as a threat to get what she wanted. Your suggestion/portrayal of her as a taker is a complete understatement. I have raised the bar so high I can even keep up the pace. But somehow I still don't resent it. I remember how long she stood by me. Two months after I met her I was unemployed for the next year. Then after we got married we spent nine years in apartment due to gambling. We've been through so much together that I can't imagine we could give up now. While there are plenty of bad days I remain optimistic. Don't ever hesitate to bring out the lumber. I know its a loving gesture that I need from time to time.

Maduro, you are right in that I certainly want to get to 20years. SH's quote "do you want to be right or do you want to be married" rings true for me. I could not continue this downward spiral forever but I still remain very committed to saving this marriage. And yes it is worth saving. But as you can probably attest this has taken a great deal out of me and I am very concerned about resentment surfacing at some time down the road. I still believe when this finally ends that a healthy dose of MC is in order for us to bury this once and for all. Thanks for checking in. It really does make you respect couples that make it to 40 and 50 yrs.

WOE

You know I'm trying to stay away from these boards, but there's a few of you I feel I'm "leaving high and dry", so I'm going to shoot you some thoughts.

First of all, CV, quit laughing, I can hear you from where I sit!

WOE, it seems as though you are into a bit of conflict avoidance here.

How difficult would it be to make a list of notes regarding the issues you have with the continued contact, and set a time to have your wife all to yourself, and employ Harley's principal in a heart to heart talk with her?

Cover it from every angle, express how MUCH you love her, cover her strong points so there is balance, but tell her what you have learned here.

Tell her NC is the only way to fully put an Affair to a full and proper end.

Tell her that yet another piece of your heart is broken with each and every contact.

Tell her that even if she doesn't believe continued contact is the continuance of the affair, IT IS, and get her a copy of Not Just Friends and show her the facts in print.

Explain how much it means to you that she stayed by your side throughout the gambling, and your recovery, and you will do the same for her addiction.

You've been on here for 3 years, and you know the drill.

Step up to the plate, and take the (yes) chance, and put it all out there on the table in front of you both. Of course, you know to do all of this in a respectful manner, and POJA, and no Angry Outburst, and no Disrespectful Judgements.

Perhaps a romantic get-away for your anniversary may be a part of this plan.

Speak from your heart, control you emotions, and if things get to the anger stage, stop and take a time-out to cool down.

Remember not to "educate" her or be her teacher. Just state facts, and when she questions your knowledge about these facts, you can quote the Harleys or other sources you have read.

CV had a good point, in that you are "seeing" a pathetic creature in your mirror. Perhaps it's time to hike up your shorts, raise up your chin, stiffen your upper lip, and take charge of this in a loving and respectful manner. Women are not attracted to "pathetic". They are attracted to inner strength, take charge, in-control types of men.

I have a notion that man exists inside you, but you have allowed this NC to "beat you down" and your self esteem surely has suffered. The lack of exposure you have settled for (not a criticism, because I didn't expose much either) will leave you unfulfilled, if for no other than selfish reasons. I would have gladly shouted it from the rooftops, and bought a billboard, but I thought (pre MB) that it would cost me my marriage. But, my point is, you have suffered a great deal for reasons that very few people know, and it takes a toll on how you feel about YOU. I know this for a fact, because it happened to me.

I think your (very passive) approach from distancing yourself from the circle of friends is admirable, but it could take many more months, or years before your wife "figures it fully out". If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking for actions, much less passive, to be the catalyst for some movement, either for the positive, or the negative. But I'm a "poop or get off the pot" kind of a guy!

You know your sitch best. You know what may work the best for you, but your most recent post would indicate that you are ready for some positive change.

My friend, YOU are the one responsible for whatever changes that will occur.

Best wishes!

SD (attempting to slink again into obscurity, LOL)

SD, thanks for visiting. I missed you but respect your decision to stay away. I won't try to draw you into a debate. I think your comments are dead on. At some point sucking it up starts to have a negative effect on your self esteem and I need to be very well aware of this. For the longest time I hounded wife to stop calling this guy. That's all I asked for is to end the phone calls and still allow her to see him once a week at pool. Her response was always to hide her phone bill, tell me to take my blood pressure pills and "we just chit chat". She would defend and defend so this seemed like the wrong course and only lead to DJ's and LBs. So then I try to pursuade her to go to MC. She goes once but I continue to go 10 more times alone, inviting her each time. I give that up and write her a letter of how hurtful this is and insist on MC with SH. She says only if I go to IC to fix me. I agree and she reluctantly talked to Steve for a brief time. His suggestion was that the OM is not a threat and continue to add weight to the relationship. I have continued to Plan A I suppose while respectfully adding weight to the relationship. Do I have the balls to step up? I don't know what that means to be honest. If it means saying I'll go if you don't quit pool, I don't think I could do it. I believe it would get her to leave pool but the resentment would probably bite me later.

I may use this downscaled anniversary to open a discussion. Let her know I am tired of being alone in this fight. A romantic get away is out of the question. It sends the message that there is no limit to how much WOE can take. But a very sober discussion is in order. Not overdue but in order. Because again I have tried talking to her but in all honesty she simply dismisses my feelings. I gave her the Cheese book that CV recommended and I have a copy of Not Just Friends and may break it out.

SD, at this point of writing I went back and re-read your post. You are right there is absolutely nothing wrong with me making a list of all the issues and either verbalizing it or putting it in writing. Maybe I can show her the post of how bad it hurt when OM answered her cell phone recently and spoke to my son. As CV has told me many times I will know when I've had enough. The thing that bothers me the most is all I have learned here I have been unable to implement in my life. The bottom line of that is SO MUCH TIME HAS BEEN WASTED. That's what we won't be able to get back. The love yes, the innocence in my opinion yes, but the time is lost forever. You are kind to visit and I hope you are continuing on the road to recovery. I'll be ok.

Amen Brother SD! I'm right with you on what you wrote to WOE, except minus the romantic gettaway. And yes I am laughing. It's kind of like every old rock band's final farewell tour. Then they tour the following summer. Listen, I can't handle anymore tearful goodbyes to you. So can you just lurk and post occasionally?

WOE, this is what I don't get.I wrote this to someone else here recently. Basically why do we allow our screwed up Ss to hold all the cards. When H was depressed and withdrawn while taking drugs for Hep C I asked him for months to go to MC. Finally, when I couldn't live in a M like that anymore he agreed to MC. Then, when he was in the A he held all the cards. If it weren't for my dad being sick I would have forced the issue earlier than I did. Now, I swear if I ever allow him to hold the cards to our M again just shoot me. He's going to IC. He knew that he needed to, but it was also something I needed him to do to be Med to me. MC will be in our future. There is no choice here if we are going to recover from this.

Everything you write about your W seems to be her holding all the cards. She won't end contact, so you just have to deal with it. She won't go to IC, so you go. She doesn't want to go to MC, so you go alone. You talk to Steve alone. Like SD said, what you are doing might work. But it also might take years. You are already talking about waisted time.

It's unethical for me to talk about my clients in detail, but I'll tell you this story. CT came to me not being able to let go of a very toxic M to a man who basically abandoned her. She just couldn't let it go. Finally she was getting closer and closer to letting him go when she was diagnosed with a deadly disease. The 1st week in the hospital, near death, she let him go. He just wasn't worth her time anymore.

I am not saying that this is your situation, or that you should dump your W. But what would you do if you were living your last days? Back to the cheese book. "What would you do if you weren't afraid?" You need to get clear about what you want WOE. I know you want your W and your M to recover. What I mean is what do you want your life to be like? Is it OK to have the M whatever the cost? If that's your answer fine. You need to be clear about what you want before you talk to your W. When you vascilate(sp?) she ends up doing exactly what she wants, whether it's good for your M or not. Just like a kid would do. I wonder if you need to start treating her like an adult who's actions are creating real consequences. Just something to think about ! CV

CV, I know you and SD speak from the heart and I appreciate your genuine love and conern. I don't disagree with anything being said. The one thing you told me is that I would know when I have enough. That is extremely accurate. As I replied on WAT's threat about EXPOSURE 102; don't give up on people the 2 x 4's are not wasted. Your support and encouragement have finally pushed me to yet another level. Perhaps a baby step, but I will have the conversation. I will try to direct my W to the August 26th post "On Contact" where my son spoke to OM. If nothing else W has a lot of respect for me as a father and that post should hit home. I will explain to her that I know she continues to call him and if she presses for how I know I will tell her the truth, that I have again hacked into her cell records. If her reaction is to contact the phone company and complain to them I will tell her that I take that as, "it's more important that you can continue to secretly call OM, than to protect me". If she does in fact choose that path. I will call OM and explain to him how I held my W while we waited to make sure she wasn't pregnant with OM's baby. He didn't pursue her so I have let him off the hook but that decision doesn't have to be final. I am ambivalent about talking to him. I don't need that revenge. But depending how W reacts to this discussion it still would not mean the end of contact. Even that is not paramount. He has no interest in her and I only need her to have no interest in him. If she sees him in this weekly group setting and she can get her fix then without the private conversations it would be enough for now. It really would. CV, I am simply too sensitive a person and W has used that against me. The bulb in the lighthouse is starting to dim and when that happens I have no doubt it's time for action. As SD said I am responsible for any change that is to occur. Back to the Cheese book; the only thing I am and have been afraid of is crushing her. But I guess I have been misguided because it wouldn't be crushing her but rather rescuing her from a situation that is far more dangerous to her future than she could ever imagine. Dr. Laura has a chapeter in her book, The 10 things woman do to screw up their lives, about holding on to a toxic relationship or one that threatens your marriage. It's very similar to Nancy Glass's theme in Not Just Friends.

Today is number 19 and I will let this pass in peace as she doesn't get home until early evening from her trip. But tomorrow I will speak to her. I can honestly say at this point in time I am not afraid to have this talk. I have given up soooo much that if she still wants more I will know I am dealing with a very selfish person and I don't believe that is true. There is a line in a song by Maroon Five; "it's not always rainbows and butterflies, but compromise that moves us along". I suppose for me that speaks to the practicality of relationships rather than relying on the momentum of love. Having these four days alone with my kids has been very good for me. I am an integral part of this family and not simply a paycheck. It felt good to be the sole provider this weekend and to "shine". I know I'll be OK.
Thank you.

WOE

{{{{{{{{{{WOE}}}}}}}}}}}! AS much as I want to hold your hand and help you find your way through this maze, I can't. It's your journey! Plus it would be ludicrous because I don't know where the heck I am in the maze. I'm pretty sure I know what I'd do if I were you. But I'm not! And if you were to do what I'd do, it could end your M, or more likely propel you into Plan B.

Since I'm not into giving advice to my clients, but trying to help them figure out their own path, this is what we will talk about when they need to take action in their lives. I know you are not my client, but I do this for myself too. Try to really look at your choices, all your options. Sometimes it is a matter of picking the least crappy one when none of them are that great. I think just taking action gets us moving in a better direction.

WOE, I'm just going to make an observation. If I am totally off, set me straight, OK? We know each other through an internet site. Granted I feel like I know you and others here, and you guys know me, better than many people in my life because of the depth of writing. However, we aren't talking face to face, so some meaning might be lost. When you speak of your W I feel like she is this fragile china doll. You say you are afraid of shattering her, yet realize you need to rescue her. WOE, do you want to have a relationship with a woman or a little girl? At the clinic where I volunteer we won't even counsel people if they are taking drugs. They have to get clean 1st or it's a waist of everybody's time. Getting clean is something THEY have to do. No one else can do it for them. The person has to get to the point that the drug is not worth what it is doing to their lives.

I'm scratching my head here because I don't want to give advice, so I'll ask this question. What adverse effects on your W's life have occurred as a result of her addiction to OM? What will motivate her to change? I just wonder what good it will do telling her you know she is still calling OM, because what are the consequences of calling OM? What are the consequences of being with OM? If you confront OM and appeal to his integrity, what are the consequences if he doesn't give a sh**? You can't make her change. You can only be clear about what you will or won't tolerate. Then it's up to her to make her choices, good or bad.

Early on in my hell I realized I wasn't going to go nuts checking e-mails and phone records. I couldn't control what H was going to do. I gave this M to God, told H I wanted to recover our M, but OW had to be gone. It was up to him to keep to NC.

I'll go back to saying just be clear about YOU! Whatever that is. Let's face it, we ultimately are all alone in the maze. Your W is in her own maze. Remember how Haw kept trying to get Hem out of the cheese station. Only Hem had the power to choose to leave it. OK, I'm shutting up now.

I'm not sure if I should say Happy Anniversary. How about give yourself a lot of credit for having this anniversary. For sticking to your M vows and working your butt off to save your M. CV

OOps, one more thing then I really will shut up. Concerning compromise, I personally don't believe there is any compromise when it comes to an A.

CV, thank you for your thorough and professional reply. Yes, we know eachother very, very well and more than real life relationships because of the safety of anonymity. Do I want to be married to a woman or a little girl? I can only say that I want to give the little girl every opportunity to become a responsible married woman. You are very right regarding the consquences; there are relatively few. I want her to stop calling. Or I approach OM. Nothing is going to change. I believe the Zen religion/philosophy has a saying that you either address it or let it go. I can't seem to do either. Me not participating helps me though and unfortunately it hurts W. There is really no end in sight. This guy will be forever single so he won't be leaving team anytime soon. W enjoys the whole thing so much she won't be quitting either. But there is no doubt in my mind that eventually this thrill will become the biggest burden in her life. She will wake up sooner or later and realize to continue this fantasy means attending weddings, funerals, barbeques, christings and picnics alone. These people enjoyed my company and will really be uncomfortable with W making excuses for my absence. That is neither here nor there. What matters is we somehow improve our marriage and learn from this. That is why I can't let go. I don't want to miss this opportunity to take our relationship to the next level. This is an opportunity CV.

CV, you asked what adverse effect has OM had on W's life. I can say that she has established other relationships with members of the team. She would love to have them to our home along with the rest of the team. To show off her home as well as welcome them as freinds. But she now understands she can't do it because I won't attend. Other consequences include embarrassing herself in front of her entire family at Christmas. She may not even know this took place but no one else will forget. So she has paid a tremendous price and I think she just tries to bury it inside. I am sure the relationship has dissapated and that is comforting. But again the time wasted and the possibility that she hasn't learned a thing are my greatest concerns.

Finally, I have learned something here that is in someone's sig line. And that is that time doesn't heal a thing, it's what you do with the time that matters. I met a friend who I had a fallout with 2 years ago. We ended contact two years ago and when I saw his face and exchange a few words it was immediately clear to me that not a day had passed for him. The pain was as fresh as it was two years ago because we never addressed it. That was an epithany for me.

CV, I hope I have answered your questions. I know I have frustrated everyone here at times, and no one more than you. But perhaps my tremendous capacity for empathy has touched you. I don't doubt you are a very forgiving person but you don't seem to be able to put yourself in your H's shoes. I'm not saying that you could be a WW but only that everybody needs a friend sometime. As silly as my way seems, it still allows me to maintain my LB for W. Let your H in. I don't know if that's an appropriate statement but if you are keeping him at arms length you aren't giving him the chance he deserves.

W just called and asked me if we have beer. I said yes, she said good because I invited R over. R is the 31 year old soccer coach who is so into me it's sickening. W will occassionally complain about my relationship with her. But why invite her over? She just doesn't seem to get it. Anyway I maintain my boundaries but it's as if W is tempting me. From the movie As Good As It Gets; "go sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here" Jack Nicolson.

CV, thank you for your patience and support. You have helped me through some difficult times. But somehow, I still know how it ends up. It's just a ***** waiting to get there.

WOE

WOE, I just read your post and I'm sitting here wondering if I am frustrated with you. I think what it is maybe is that you and I are polar apposites on how we approach some aspects of this A crap. I totally get that my way might not be the right way for you. However, maybe I feel such empathy for you that I want to get into your life and try it my way. Does that make sense?

When I 1st came to MB and was writing in "Just Found Out" I was explaining H's lie, which I didn't know was a lie at the time. The lie being that he had feelings for OW but had never told her or her him. I wrote how I didn't want them working together, but how could he fire her for something he was feeling? The old timers here told me she had to go, H created the problem, and so he now had to deal with it. If she didn't know I couldn't take that step because basically it seemed illegal to fire her because of H's feelings. Well, as soon as I found out it was an EA (didn't know about the PA yet)I was very clear. She had to go or he had to go. I will give my H a lot of credit for this. He was totally dependent on her as his office manager, plus he was in-love with her, so he thought. He lost her and his 16 yr. friend and partner at the same time. He was basically up sh&& creek. Truthfully, he lost key people in his business, and gave OW so much autonomy he didn't even know how to do what she did. The thing is, right or wrong, I could not tolerate her working there, period! So maybe that is why I have trouble understanding why your W can't give up her pool league, and why you don't lay that out.

The thing is I took a big risk. H could have totally folded because he was so scared on so many levels. There were times that I think he thought it would be easier to give his family up rather than her and sacrificing his business. I very well might have lost him then. Maybe that is what would have happened if you did that with your W. Everyone's tolerance level is different. You just are a lot more tolerant than I am.

Back to frustration. I am sure I frustrate many people on here too, but for different reasons. My H gave up the "B" pretty much cold turkey. He went into IC immediately, and has been willing to talk to Steve. The fog has been lifting slowly but surely. He has stuck in here to recover our M. Yet, I still question whether I can be with this man who betrayed me the way he did. I'm not even sure it is a matter of forgiveness. I need to be Med to my BF, and he ain't it right now. I'm not sure he ever can be after what he did.

So as I told you, I'm trying to find my own way in this maze. I'm not judging you. I just wish you the best. CV

CV, I frequently regret my handling of this situation. The difference in my case (besides me)is that this was one-sided A. And since W confessed I was just totally supportive of her and not thinking about what I needed to heal. I didn't really understand EA prior to this. That is something woman are probably more in tune to then men. But I was scared, very scared that she would leave. She was acting like a wounded animal and I was not really thinking about what I needed at that time.

But now she is back on her feet in large part due to very supportive and loving husband. So while I wouldn't do things this way again, I can honestly say that I am confident enough in our relationship to stick to MY NC. She will be hurt but I believe her mind is finally clear enough to start thinking about someone besides herself. It's certainly not the recovery I dreamed of but nonetheless we are moving in the right direction.

Is your H a better person than my W? No, but he handled the situation much better. He knew, either because of you or instinctively. But in my case my W honestly doesn't know what she's done. I mean if I didn't walk around like a zombie for 2 years she wouldn't really think this was a big deal. In that way it does parallel gambling a bit. I had no idea how much damage I was doing.

Finally you gambled and won, or at least have given yourself the best chance of winning. I wasn't willing to take that chance. The stakes were simply too high. Even now I know she wouldn't leave me but I still couldn't say "it's pool or me". There will be a point when SHE will wish this guy was gone. He will become a source of embarrassment for her and with my NC it will continue to get more uncomfortable as the fog continues to lift. I take a lot of pride in my M and I believe W does as well. That may seem strange but we really do just about everything together and for me to not participate hurts her. It's not my intention to do so, but it is just the result of her poor choices.

I told you last night she invited R over. Right after R left she said you and her have a special connection. I denied it but W insisted it's there. But for a change W added I don't want to lose you but if you go you go. Something like that. Lot's of fog talk but at least she doesn't want to lose me.

CV, in your own situation I would just enourage you to be patient. You are not being a dormat as your H is respecting you. You and I don't know where we are in the maze BUT neither do our spouses. We may not be the only ones considering leaving the M. I don't mean that we should thank our lucky stars they're still here, but only that they have found themselves in a fairly dark place as well. I saw WAT's post mirror, mirror on the wall about painting the mirrors so they don't have to face themselves. Naturally there were all the BS's high fiving eachother. But there was one FWW who said she still can't look at herself in the mirror. That is where my empathy comes from. We're not married to bad people. And I know you don't judge me. Hope you're son is coming around. Take care.

WOE, this is the 1st time you wrote that you and your W "do just about everything together." That's good. I got the message that you both were leading pretty separate lives. You know what you're doing. If the recovery process moves too slowly at some point for you, then that will be the time you will do something else.

Thanks for asking about my son. I think he is doing better. He has adjusted to the fact that we our serious about the limits we are placing on him and seems to have chilled out. I read in "Not Just Friends" a part about kids and what to tell them. It was very helpful. Basically we haven't handled things as terribly as I thought.

Both my boys are in bands. Older son plays electric guitar, younger son plays bass. OS's band had a gig Saturday, but lost their bass player. They asked YS if he would play with them for the night. I think the experience was really good for both boys. And lucky us, the screwed up GF wasn't there.

Hope you have a good week WOE. CV

CV, first I'm glad you're feeling better about the way you have handled things with your boys. Sometimes I think we read too much into things. YS and OS playing together is really cool, and I'm glad the girl stayed away so you could enjoy it.

CV, when you said this is the first post where I mentioned that W and I spend and inordinate amount of time together I was surprised. I have communicated at length with you and the fact that I never conveyed that to you is an eye opener. But it does go to show how nobody is as close to the situation as we are. Don't get me wrong my situation sucks but it's not near as bad as is coming across on this site I suppose. W and I have a very good relationship outside of this. We spend lots and lots of time together. And I would call it quality time. She continues to see me as her best friend and honestly I'm starting to view her as mine. This is something new. Honestly if she didn't have the PA and I didn't become so educated about what a M could be I would say everything is fairly normal. Because I would never have understood what an EA was if she didn't have the ONS. That is what sent me seeking help. So I guess I view this as putting out the last embers of the A. I would say that's what you are trying to do. You case is easier because of NC. But you H must be defogging by now and I think that would be reflected in more good times together. More connected etc. When he's there, he's really there. At least I hope it's going that way for you.

Give it some more time. Your family deserves every chance to thrive. If things don't continue in the right direction I think you and H will come to that conclusion together. Another thing I have learned is how much our children rely on us. You don't realize until the apple cart gets upset a little. But their worlds revolve around their parents but they remain oblivious to that fact as long as things are functioning well. And a child deserves to remain oblivious. Sorry to go off in so many directions. Take care. WOE