ML -

Just wanted to update you and see what you think about this.

H started reading 'Not Just Friends'. Spent some time reading yesterday afternoon for about an hour. He came into the room I was in, his face all red, he was very uptight and said "well, the book proves that I've been doing it wrong right from the very beginning." I hugged him and told him that he's done a lot of good and wonderful things...he's not drinking/getting sober, opening himself up, sharing some feelings, accountable for time, NC with OW's and is much more loving, caring and giving. I asked H if he wanted to talk about anything that he read and he said no. Told me that the book brings out all of his feelings of shame, guilt, etc.

He read the book again today. Now today, he comes into the room I'm in after reading a couple of chapters. He's completely pale, hyperventilating, sweating...in fact he looks like he could faint. I asked him what was wrong and he said he was reading the book and he just had this terrible reaction...felt like he was going to throw up, etc. He was all choked up when he huggged me and said "sss, I'm so sorry I put you through all of this."

I hugged him tight.

Is he feeling a little of the reality you mentioned in your last response to me in my other post?

I've been completely open with him in the last year telling him how I feel, what I'm experiencing or learning. I always had the feeling he thought I was just being a b!tch and saying stuff to hurt him. Could it be he understands the devastation of the A now that he's reading about it?

H said he is cancelling his next two scheduled appointments with his IC. He said there's no reason for him to continue going if she is giving him incorrect information. He told me to ask any A questions I wanted, he would just take a deep breath, suck it up and deal with it. H said he will either find another IC or another way to improve his communication.

I just suggested he finish reading the book first and then we'll talk about future A talks. I don't want to overload him.

What do you think?

Thanks for your input.

Take care.

sss

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>

SSS,

Do me a favor. Don't ask him any questions for a few weeks, ok? Just back off and let him ease into the real world. The anesthethic is wearing off and his left brain is starting to wake up. What he is going through is very very painful because he is starting to see the devastation in his path. He has no refuge from the truth anymore.

That is a HUGE advance in recovery but it happens gradually. Is he going to meetings? Does he have a sponsor?

Please be as supportive as possible. I think he is progressing quite nicely.

Thank God he is quitting that stupid counselor.

Hi ML!

Thanks. That's what I thought about the questions too. Just let him have some time, let him finish reading the book, let him come to me.

Yes, H is going to meetings (he's at one now). He goes 3 - 4 times per week. Yes, he has a sponsor (2nd one) and is going to line another one up since current sponsor is quite old.

H will have 11 months of sobriety tomorrow. I am so proud of him.

I admit that I felt a great deal of anxiety also while reading the A books, but of course that was shortly after d-day. I was worried about H and his reaction to reading the book. Especially today.

Thanks again for your input.

sss

Has he been eating alot of sweets?

sss

ML is right on, as usual!

Let reality soak in and keep R talks on a shelf for a while. In the mean time, be creative, and try to involve WH in some quality time w/you. Have some fun, just like you did when you were courting. Go out on "dates". Do things together that you did when you first met. Rekindle your relationship without words.

I did this and the time together worked wonders. The fog is clearing, and it's time to give him the chance to "see" you again, through clearer eyes.

Remember, Plan A is all about improving all of those things about you that allowed the marriage to become vulnerable to an A, and it is critically important that you keep those positive changes in place, for life!

I have done what I am suggesting, and my FWW and I are well into a fabulous recovery.

All of this will take time, and the progress you see may come in miniscule dribs and drabs, so don't be expecting major strides, rather, look for baby steps, and relish in any and all improvement. He will most likely experience withdrawal, and he'll need you to lean on.

You are still the major force leading into recovery, so stay consistantly strong. Like my dad told me years ago, a steady wind bends the tree.

Best wishes
SD

SSS, could you please tell me the name of the author of Not Just Friends, so that I may order it? My H also has had several A's, but doesn't want to talk about it. This book might just help him. H is being a wonderful H now, but says he doesn't need concelling. Be good to yourself & I think it is great that your H is now seeing how it is for you.
WH 52
BS 49
DD 24
DS 22
Married 27 yrs 10 mths
D Day #1 10th November 2003
H had several A's over 10 yrs
Working at staying together forever

Thanks for your input.

ML - H goes for ice cream instead of beer now but I wouldn't say he has a lot of it. Mostly one huge bowl per day, sometimes twice per day. Why do you ask?

I'm curious. Your first reponses to my question stated that H should step up to the plate, be forthcoming about the A's, stop keeping the truth from me, etc. Now you suggest backing off for a time. Do you feel he's at a 'shaky' point of his recovery from alcoholism? Too much too soon...even 15 months from d-day and 11 months sober?

SD - H's last A ended on d-day (6/03). He did not appear to go through any kind of withdrawal. He said that he did not have any feelings for the OW except that things she said made him feel good (smart, handsome, etc.). It seems that the reality that H is experiencing now while he's getting sober, is the pain and devastation he has caused by his selfish behavior over the years. Reading the book has made him realize that the feelings I've expressed over the past few months aren't made up to hurt him, but real feelings. Plus, his own feelings are identified in the book as well. I've put the A/R talk on hold for now. But at some point, we will need to go over it. I'm am being supportive and loving to H so that he can continue to heal. I must say, after being the major force in recovery for the past 15 months, it would be nice for someone else to take over. I'm tired, want the truth, want to move on.

eyesopened - Shirley Glass is the author. NJF is a great book and I highly recommend it. I just read it for the 2nd time and it's spot on describing feelings of all parties involved in the A, recovery, etc.

Hope everyone has a great day.

sss

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stillsosad:
<strong> Thanks for your input.

ML - H goes for ice cream instead of beer now but I wouldn't say he has a lot of it. Mostly one huge bowl per day, sometimes twice per day. Why do you ask?

I'm curious. Your first reponses to my question stated that H should step up to the plate, be forthcoming about the A's, stop keeping the truth from me, etc. Now you suggest backing off for a time. Do you feel he's at a 'shaky' point of his recovery from alcoholism? Too much too soon...even 15 months from d-day and 11 months sober?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because he is stepping up to the plate now. He understands that he has to do this and I think this realization has shocked him. I think he is going into a very critical, eye opening phase and if you push him too much right now, you push him back into his defensive posture. I think he is unfolding all his own right now and will start talking to you.

Just let him get used to the ramifications of what he has done and then discuss it with him in a couple of weeks. But it sounds like there is a new aspect here: REMORSE. Is that what you see?

ML

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Because he is stepping up to the plate now. He understands that he has to do this and I think this realization has shocked him. I think he is going into a very critical, eye opening phase and if you push him too much right now, you push him back into his defensive posture. I think he is unfolding all his own right now and will start talking to you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gotcha! That's what I thought. Just wanted to be sure.

He is still complaining today that he just 'feels' funny. Has a funny feeling in his chest and stomach. Anxiety? Reality hitting?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But it sounds like there is a new aspect here: REMORSE. Is that what you see?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm. True remorse? Maybe so. I mean, H has probably said he was sorry about the A's a thousand times. Maybe the sorry was said without complete understanding? Maybe he didn't really mean it?

His remorse seemed genuine yesterday...more heartful.

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it.

sss

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stillsosad:
[QB]

He is still complaining today that he just 'feels' funny. Has a funny feeling in his chest and stomach. Anxiety? Reality hitting?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't know about that one, SSS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe the sorry was said without complete understanding? Maybe he didn't really mean it?

His remorse seemed genuine yesterday...more heartful.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It takes a while to feel true remorse after the booze wears off for many. We don't feel things like that when our conscience is pickled. I started feeling real emotions around 8 months sobriety so maybe that is what he is going through.

See, intellectually I knew what I had done was wrong, but I didn't really feel it because my conscience was asleep. Hope that makes sense.

sss,

I hope you don't mind my jumping in here, but I think I might have something that would be helpful here.

As you know, a big portion of any addiction is numbing yourself so that you can't feel pain--sometimes it's pain that is inflicted upon you, and sometimes it's pain that you are inflicting upon others. So, rather than facing the pain, the person will numb themself by turning to their addiction (be it food, drugs, or booze) and that's how they are able to continue to "cope" and shuffle through life. SSS, please notice: when you are in the addiction, you are numb SO YOU DON'T FEEL.

Then there is some turning point in life and the addict goes to recovery. For some there are physical and psychological withdrawals to go through when they are first in recovery...so for a while, they just deal with those symptoms and try to survive. Then there is some personal work to be done and for the next period of time, the addict just is "working the program" and doing their steps or whatever program they are doing--but the focus is kind of on them and their own life. Other people are "out there" and involved in their life and stuff, but the focus is on their own personal recovery. Next, as recovery is progressing, what often happens is that the addict will stop being numb and start to feel again. (This is why AA has that rule about not dating someone for the first year, because you are SOOOOoooo new to just feeling anything that it's often mistaken for "love".) Starting to feel is a little bit like having sandpaper rubbed on your heart--it feels good to "feel" again, but it also feels a little raw and vulnerable and hurts a bit. About this time, the addict may also look around and start to be more aware of the people around them, how they've been affected, the people's feelings, etc.

I believe, from your description that this is about where your H is at. It sounds like he may have intellectually understood the hurt and pain that he caused, but that he did not emotionally understand it because he was numb or not fully feeling or just moreso focused on his own business. Now...he's reading NJF and it is hitting him like a ton of bricks. He HURT you and this time he feels it.

So, yes, he does need to be accountable for his choices and his actions, but no, it could easily be too painful to bear if he had to carry the bricks AND answer a ton of questions about the HORRIBLE choices he made that crushed you. Let some part of your heart be understanding of the multiple layers of things he is conquering right now.

Finally--I have a suggestion. If you absolutely have questions that you need to ask, it is reasonable for you to need that. I suggest that you consider a limit, so that he knows it won't be an interogation. I suggest that you ask him ONE QUESTION a day that he agrees he will be transparently honest with you about--and that turnabout is fair play...he can ask you ONE QUESTION a day that you agree you will be transparently honest with him about. He may have some tough stuff to ask you!

So there's my two cents. Take what helps!


CJ

ML & CJ

Thanks to both of you. What you wrote makes a lot of sense.

You are right that H has been focused on himself and the AA program/steps for the past year. That's hard in itself while trying to recover from infidelity because it's still all about him. You know? What about me? Both of you have helped me understand what the alcoholic goes through, which is very, very helpful. I certainly don't want to set H back or make his/our situation worse due to lack of understanding.

It's been tough...dealing with alcoholism and the A's. Two different issues with a lot of crossover between the two... There's M issues to deal with due to the alcoholism and M issues to deal with in regards to the A. Does that make sense? Then there are H's childhood wounds as the root cause (I believe) of all this that he still needs to sort out.

H took a break yesterday from reading NJF. I told him again that I really appreciated that he was reading it. He had recently mentioned that he didn't think we were on the same page (with healing/recovery). I agree. I think I'm much farther along. I think once he finishes the book, we'll be on the same page as far as recovery of the A's goes. I still don't plan on asking him anything until he gets done with the book. Hopefully he'll be ready to get it all out in the open so we can be done with it.

H is 61 years old. It would have been very easy for H to continue on his path of destruction and not make the slightest change. He has years of hurtful and selfish behavior under his belt (40 years of active drinking and 20+ years of almost continuous A's).

I'm very proud of him and the choice he made to recognize his problems and work to change. I'm sure this has been one of the biggest challenges of his life.

Thanks again for your help. If you have any other helpful info, please share it.

sss

SSS,
What about you? You have played second fiddle to a bottle of booze and an OW for years. Now you have a chance for a real marriage in which you play first fiddle.

It won't happen overnight, but from the sounds of his progress, it will happen.

Do you go to Alanon, SSS?

double post!

<small>[ September 15, 2004, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

ML

Yep, every week.

So...for me there's been about 9 months of IC, just about one year of Al-Anon, reading everything I can get my hands on about alcoholism, infidelity, relationships, forgiveness, and, of course, MB/posting.

In addition, we found a new church that we both love and have gone every week since Easter.

If you have any other ideas of things I can do/read, please let me know.

Thanks.

sss