Waiting to hear your answers..

What exactly would happen if each and every person learned to give and do for their spouse and really expect nothing in return...

to give with no strings attached...

what's the best that can happen???
what's the worst that can happen???

no right or wrong answers..

why do people struggle with that concept so much
why are we humans raised to believe that we should give and do for return
why do we need something in return
what happens to fill that need for return...


Ark

We would finally be at peace.

C.

Ark

I personally dont have a prblem with giving and no return given the situation. I think what troubles me more is the lack of consideration.

When you go fom a caring R to nothing overnight then it is very troubling to me.

I would love to have some return but i would love more to have some consideration. At least say "god bless you" when i sneeze.

There is just NOTHING....thats what hurts the most.

justahusband..
it does hurt..
but that's why plan a is a an all out short term investment... and why it is really necessary to learn the new behaviors..not just act them..to win something back..

it's learning new coping and interacting marriage skills even when the other spouse isn't learning a thing or paying overt attention....

there is nothing you can do to stop someone else from choosing an affair..
all you can do is repeatedly place loving options in their path..so their choices become clearer, more real and shows them options...

that's it...

Hmmm....I just took my dog for a walk a thought about this post the whole time.

I feel that when we give something we ALWAYS get something in return, even if it's not from the person our actions are directed towards.

When I am able to give my H support, *I* feel good for having done so. It makes ME feel good for taking positive steps towards a better marriage, even if those efforts aren't appreciated by him.

When I avoid relationship talks, it makes ME feel good for not making him feel guilty and makes ME feel good for not hurting myself.

I do not expect any of my efforts to have a "pay off" in the end. I don't think my H and I will stay married. But I still feel good for doing all of this. I know that I am doing everything I can. I know that I will not look back with regrets. This makes ME feel good and that is my payoff. Maybe there will be another payoff, maybe there won't.

So you see, there *is* some kind of payoff.

But I also want to say that there's a difference between hope and expectation and in the context of your post..i'm not sure if there *is* a difference. Maybe you could tell me your thoughts.

-When I support my H through hard times at the job, I HOPE that he will appreciate this and see me in a new light, but I do not expect him to.
-When I cheer my husband on through taking a motorcycle safety class and looking for a bike, I hope that he will enjoy my support and see me in a new light, but I do not expect him to.
-When I make gestures of friendship towards my husband, I hope that he will see this friendship as a good basis for trying to reconvile, but I do not expect him to.

So your thoughts..in this context, do you see a difference between "hope" and "expectations" or "strings"?

I think what we have grown to expect we now hope for.

When i sneeze now I "hope" she says "bless you" when before it was just expected and overlooked if she didnt.

Now i am looking for it and get disapointed when it doesnt happen.

What exactly would happen if each and every person learned to give and do for their spouse and really expect nothing in return...

Here is the question....


why are we humans raised to believe that we should give and do for return
why do we need something in return

and this is part of the answer....

human nature..... I think it may be neurochemical .... a synapse connection that gets "exhausted" after too much giving.... and occasionally needs a "refil" of energy after awhile by filling the chemical tank....

Have you ever read the book...

Gift From The Sea by Anne Morrow Lindbergh? .... it is a beauty of a book.... timeless musings about life..... and the tides of one's life.

It is not enough to always remain in the "flow".... there needs to be an "ebb" tide as well.

Ark.... if everyone was always a "giver" .... where is the balance? Where is the offering of opportunity toward our spouse allowing him to become the "giver" for awhile?

There is beauty in the symmetry, I think. I recently have come to recognize that insisting one hold the "giver" position is as selfish as insisting one hold the "taker" position in relationships.

Balance..... is beautiful

Pep

These thoughts are a bit scattered so bear with me.....

What exactly would happen if each and every person learned to give and do for their spouse and really expect nothing in return...

Would be pretty nice place huh?

I think I learned that I could do this when I was nose-deep in a plan A type of thing. Not expecting something in return was hard to unlearn but plan A'ing an indifferent and distant spouse certainly teaches you fast. Like maddy said, I did glean a bit-o-sumthin' for myself by giving with no expectations. I grew up and dare I say became a little more differentiated. I made me happy.....happy because I was a darn nice guy and I was no longer hog tied to the roller coaster that the A had put me on.

why do people struggle with that concept so much
why are we humans raised to believe that we should give and do for return
why do we need something in return
what happens to fill that need for return...

I was taught one good turn deserves another and the Golden Rule. Somewhere along the road to adulthood I kinda forgot about these things. That if people weren't nice to me then I didn't have to be nice to them either. That they deserved it in a way. Thats an easy system to buy into because we, as humans, tend to lean towards wanting to be "even" not wanting to owe anyone anything.

another direction....
I think partly it is because we want to matter to someone. We want to know that what we are doing has made a difference. I'm not really talking about defining myself by others reactions but yes sometimes I expect certain things from people.

When I let someone "cut" in traffic, I expect a wave of acknowledgement. Not because I did something for them, but because it's the nice, polite or proper thing to do.
When I'm going into a store and hold the door open for someone, I expect a thank you or at least a nod in my direction.

Call me crazy but......

God Bless

Doug

I'm not sure the concept of give and expect nothing really should apply in M. I do see the giving with no return outwardly by the spouse application being paramount to Plan A, but only because of the hopefully temporary mental state of the WS.

I hold doors, not so much for the other person, but because of how it makes me feel holding the door. I am polite to others without the dire need of return because it's part of the person I intend to be. Spouses are in a different category. Spouses are our partners for life, or at least they should be, and they are their to protect us, comfort us and reciprocate our love. That being said, outside of Plan A, everything I do for my W isn't with a string attached, nor should it be, but as her H she should also give for the sake of giving. There should be a balance of love and some form of exchange of caring gestures. Mother Theresa cared for the sick and impoverished without expecting anything in return, but had she been married she may have had some expectations from her H, I mean isn't that why you have a spouse to begin with?

I'm lost here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I like Pepperband's response...

There is a saying we say in our family. I have a very generous, giving, UNselfish family. They are people who do good deeds and NEVER expect so much as an acknowledgement. Kinda that biblical premise of how you would rather your reward in heaven than on earth...so it is ok to do good unrecognized.

BUT...being a giver is a wonderful thing.

So, back to our saying. When we are trying to do something nice, like pick up the tab for dinner for a friend, or offer money, or a ride, or something, and the receiver refuses our gift, we say "Don't rob me of my blessing." In other words, don't keep me from the pleasure of being a blessing in your life, because it is honestly a blessing to bless you...

Get it.

So, in other words, for a healthy relationship to be healthy, shouldn't the giver be out for both people? Not the giver and the TAKER, but the giver and the giver?

And if the "giver" is out, really looking for the reciprocal action and what they are gonna get back in return, isn't it really the "taker" disguised?

I know that God calls us to turn the other cheek, give our shirt off of our back, and give as if unto Him, and really, that was the only thing that kept me going in plan A. When my husband was cruel and cold and mean and disrespectful, I would return that with kindness and forgiveness, because I would try and imagine Christ standing right behind him, proud of my reactions, despite what WH was doing.

But, I do not believe that God means for us to be abused or mistreated, either.

No, I agree with Pep. There is a balance that God intends for. Even God wants something in return for His blessings and grace. Our love.

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: SerendipiT ]</small>

Mother Teresa gave and gave...
and found complete and total joy in the act of giving....

she learned to give
she learned to find joy in the act of giving...

and if we write off her acts as unobtainable or as beyond our ability to give...then we disgrace both God's gift of Grace of earth...and each humans potential to give....

there is great fear of giving...
we are afraid to say things to our spouses out of fear of what we get in an answer...or lack of an answer

it took me a long time to LEARN to show admiration for my husband....
I had to learn to get over the fear of what I was saying sounded stupid...

I had to learn to get over the fear that he wouldn't (couldn't doesn't) always get the depth of what I am telling him...

I had to learn to say these things...sometimes saying something nice about someone..sounds like a foreign language...

I had to learn that there is joy in the act...

I had to change my perception
and change my attitude about giving and doing...

my house has the potential to be crazy....chaotic...
three kidlets the oldest is six....
you get the picture...

work here needs done...my expectation is that any neighbor or friend can come over at nearly any time and the living room and kitchen are tidy...
enough that if I offer to make coffee they arent' afraid to say yes... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
not spotless
but not crazy...

I can let the chores overwhelm me.
I can resent that mr ark goes off to work and leaves me with the chaos..and that I sacrifice and do the weekend overnight shifts.....(not that he doesn't do his share he does...)but the chaos of getting three kids up and ready with lunches and book bags happens after he leaves....

I can become bitter about it...and at times I have..
BUT when I change my attitude and seek doing the work as a gift...

that when he walks in the door it is MY choice whether he comes home to more chaos like he just left at work..or to a place that is somewhat of a refuge....(NOT PERFECT) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
but picked up...

when i live my gratitude in my acts they are not as burdonsome as I can make them...
when I seek joy in the act of doing ...regardless of whether someone voices appreciation....find satisfaction that I know I did...

I find it to be empowering...
when I conquer my own fear of not passing up an opportunity to tell someone in my life that I value them...I feel better that if I never see them again...I will have atleast once told them what I thought about them...even if they don't "get it"

when i tell my husband I love him..it is never again to here those words echoed back to me...it is because I mean them...

I had to learn this...
I had to study history...
I had to seek out stories of people in concentration camps who faced the most inhumane suffering imaginable...and had to read how they did it......gave in the face of he##.

pep the giving in my home...as only begotten great return...

the more comfortable i became with speaking my admiration .
speaking my love...or communicating love in actions....
the more it was mirrored back..
it did not become unequal....

if you are in the right frame of mind in giving...it is no burdon...
it is not a GIVER....
nor is there a TAKER...

which doens't mean we don't have those traits emerge in stress..or issues..or over childrearing things....

my husband would come home the same everynight...whether the house was somewhat of a sanctuary...or a place of chaos...

I have embraced setting the tone...
out of no other motive but because I can...

oh and in case we thought there wansn't enough chaos here...
last night we went and got a nine month old australian cattledog... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />


ark

As the old saying goes...

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts...we'd all have a merry Christmas...

What you're espousing is Jesus Christ's message and His example. Nothing new. He is God in the flesh and couldn't get that message to take hold so don't think this one will help much either.

Living one's life just as you state got me nothing but heartache. That said, I would do it all over again for if we only do what is right for the rewards, then where are our motives? A selfless live is not fun but when it comes to the end of my life, I'm sure I will be glad for the path I chose.

I'm often criticized because I "stayed too long" and while I see the wisdom in that, still I can know I did everything I could. I would rather be considered a doormat rather than a user. It's a matter of pride I suppose.

To live our lives in consideration of others is a fine goal for which to aim but so often perception clouds the issue-both for the giver and receiptant. Sigh...

Obviously I am a big plan A advocate..

and over and over again..people start plan A..then three days later post trauma and sadness of not getting reconized...

so my post of giving is certainly slanted in plan A way....

that in plan a...seeking the joy in the giving...even while wrestling the need and deep painful desire of compassion and acknowledgement from a Ws....

and that people shoud re-examine how and what they give...and seek to give not always what is comfortable for them...but what their Ws really finds to be a filling a need...

ark

Like Pep's "Anyway" post on her thread.

Last night when I got home after an old house meeting, there was still this basket of unfolded laundry on the floor by my side of the bed. My W was still out teaching. I could have left it there and 2rned out the light, because I was tired and I coulda done it this morning. But I folded the clothes and put them away anyway - so well, in fact, that my W couldn't at first find the pants she was looking for this morning. She kept asking "where did the basket of laundry go?" and almost didn't "get it" when I said I'd folded the clothes and put them away. Didn't find the pants until she looked on top of her dresser (I'm not s2pid enough 2 try 2 put them AWAY for her! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

I folded the clothes 2 make me happy (a small, but incrementally-rewarding act of taking responsibility for something), not 2 get a reaction or a response from my W. When it came, though, it was cute.

Hey ark^^! Your 2uestions and definitions are so beautiful. What you are describing is what the Harleys call the "deep caring love" that takes a long term M 2 build and grow, or what some call "real love" versus "chemical love", or... [now don't yell at me for this]... "unconditional love" - it really is defined exactly as you describe.

Okay, now you can yell at me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2long..
I'm so conflicted...

do i yell at you or at the new puppy for chewing up a baskett?

maybe I should name the dog...unconditional love...cause that's about the type I believe in...Alpha Dog LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bleeech....
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ARK

Whats the best that could happen ???
Well we all know that one peace, love , harmony !

Its not real, no one cause we are human can give and never expect in return ,,

I mean some of us do , but in our mind our hearts we will always say ,, I did and when oh when , or wouldn't it be nice if....

we struggle everyday (jmo) becasue of life itself .Every thing we see and know about it has a give and return factor (I think anyway )

We get pregnant and take care of our self for in return we WANT a healthy baby .Yes we should take care of ourself anyway but we start doing it sometimes for the return .

In a relationship when we M , we give our love , and already cchoose the person because what we have seen them DO in return for US .

We see the warmth of their heart , and that was the return . So jmo we always get a return and yes some where inside exprct it ...

If you get a good edacation you get a good job.

If you work hard in anything in life you are wanting a return ,, it depends on the return you where EXPECTING !

What might be said, is the return we expect to much , are we as humans missing lifes big picture on the return ..

OK I do not know if I went oFF topic here , but you said, NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER so I can say what ever I want <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

3

Our spouses promised 2 4sake all others for us when we M'd. We have a right 2 expect them 2 keep their promise.

M is a contract.

When the M is broken by something selfish like infidelity, we need 2 decide whether we want 2 try 2 fix it or leave it. Our expectation of fidelity was shattered with the M by the A. It behooves us NOT 2 expect anything in re2rn for our efforts 2 restore the M, but it is reaonable 2 have hope.

What ark^^ is describing by giving during plan A with no expectations of re2rn is the act of bettering one's self. And bettering yourself improves the relationship, either the M or some subsequent one.

"[Alpha dog] love is enlarging the self, and an act of will. It is not a feeling or an emotional reaction. Think of the difference between falling in love, and growing in love through all difficulties and conflicts. [Alpha dog] love is an act of mental and spiritual will, it cannot and does not take place upon the emotional level, which is where the problems first register. [Alpha dog] love is extending oneself in the service of the spiritual growth of oneself and/or another, independently of reward or the behavior of others." - Dr Guy Pettit [with edits by 2long in brackets]

That more better, ark^^?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-ol' 2long

We cannot do this because we do not love our spouses uncondionally. Our love is very conditional based on how we are treated, on what we get in return. Even though this goes against the teachings of the most enlightened, such as His Holiness the Dalai Lamma, Jeses, Budha...

We cannot love this way because we are not there, we have not attained this level of spiritual enlightnment like Mother Theresa, and others of her caliber.

I love my daughter unconditionally, without fail, for nothing in return... as my parents loved me, and as GOD loves me.

But I have never been able to do this in any romantic relationship I have been in. I am just not that evolved (yet). I think this is the path that we were meant to find though. This is what Jesus asked of us "to love one another", and he didn't mean just sometimes, or when it felt good or when we wanted something in return.

What would happen if we could? The world would be a much better place, I am sure of it.

I agree with ARK and I hope sometime before this life is over, I am able to love that way, not just my spouse but everyone.

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

I need help with my affair. I have been married for 4 years and I have been having an affair with a married women also. She left her husband 6 months ago and I don't know if I can leave my wife. I love my wife but I am in love with the other women. This has been going on for 10 months. Last week I left town for business. The other women meet a guy and kissed him. I felt like i was cheated on. She told me that she felt that I would never leave my wife and could not wait around forever. We talked and work thing's out but I still feal like dog squize. I really love this other women and want to be with her but I just don't want to hurt my wife. I really need help getting through this. I dont want to use my wife but without both of our incomes, I would have a change in my lifestyle. I could use some feed back. Me Email is Burkeinsurancenc@yahoo.com
Thank You
Jack Sparrows

jack:

You should start your own thread, by clicking on "New Topic" instead of reply.

You'll get a lot more traffic if you do.

You should know, right up front, that you will get help here 2 END your affair and recommit 2 your marriage, as this is a "marriage builders" site. You will not get "help" if you wish 2 continue the affair.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>