Board,
I've been reading many posts and comtemplating the comments by Ark, Pepper, NCWalker and JustAH. I am beginning to realize that I'm alot more upset/Frustrated than is healthy for my M and for myself. I can only reason this to be an aftermath of all my efforts to save my M and sometime of expectation of things to be better after the A. My desire to save my M, bring my W home and get on with the business of a loving couple are a bit premature. Is it possible I need to do something else? My W does seem to be more content and happy then I've seen her in months, but we aren't HAPPILY MARRIED. I guess I must slow my horses and possibly do some real soul-searching. NC Walker has suggested months ago the concept of the Christlike Servant Leader or something to that extent. I don't know what it is I need exactly, but there's much to do in my M. I do want to be a better H and to have a more connected happy M and family. I'm willing to do whatever is necessary to achieve peace in my heart.

At first when I read some of the threads focusing on giving, what women want and the like I became turned OFF. I can now see that maybe my instinct to turn off while reading those threads is precisely WHY I need to not only read those posts, but expand my own way of thinking. GentlePeople, we've been all dealing with serious pain, rollercoasters and what have you, all in a journey to get our spouses back...BUT maybe that's not the best goal or there might be better goals. I thought having my W home would fix my problems, but it hasn't. There is so much more to do besides jumping in bed and moving on with life. I want us my M 2be happier than ever. OHH when you begin to learn the first thing you learn is how much you need to learn... (I hope you folks know what I mean) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What I'm trying to say is, being resentful because she's not doing this or that isn't exactly going to help anything. My W being home and OM cut out of our lives doesn't necessarily fix everything now does it? I was so focused on those tangible results of having W home, and OM gone that I so wanted to exhale, but its becoming more and more apparent that a happy M especially one touched by so much infidelity may be in need of so much more. I may be in need of so much more, me, myself personally so that I can be that better H.

Just my thoughts
Comments, suggestions, 2X4's, 4X8's, 8X16's? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Edited) for clarity and a better explanation of what the heck I was trying to say...

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

FM: I think you hit on some good points here. Much of what we go through after dday is some deep soul searching. Your case has been an extremely long and protracted one. They say recovery can take up to two years, but from what I've read, I don't think you've actually entered that stage yet. There have been portions where you have been able to work on yourself and that is good, but I believe that you're still waiting on your W to begin recovery. (Has she agreed to send the NC letter yet?) Do I have any specific recommendations, unfortunately no (at least not yet). I've been doing a lot of reading lately, trying to be a sponge. Have you ordered the Wild at Heart book yet? Maybe some older, wiser MBers here will have better advise for you. At least I think you're open to improvement and that's definitely a starting point. Good luck!

RH

As a FWW I just have to tell you that reading your posts- and all of the posts of the BS on the boards here- never fails to bring tears to my eyes. When I consider how you have suffered- and that you have found it within you to work on forgiveness and recovery; to Plan A; to basically still- LOVE- is nothing short of amazing.

I am so grateful for this board - for the real concrete examples of how to work on making my marriage better- and for helping me to get a better understanding of what my dear husband suffered (at my own hands.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

This is probably not responsive to your posts- I just had to jump in here, however, to tell you that I think you- all of you- are amazing people.

FM, I have been following your situation for a while now.

My wife and I have been together almost 30 years. I will let you in on a simple truth that unfortunately took a long time for me to see.

The one wrong thing that is hardest to change in a relationship, is the very thing that must be changed in order to save it.

Maybe that will give you a place to start.

All the best,
Gimble

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Recovering H:
<strong> FM: I think you hit on some good points here. Much of what we go through after dday is some deep soul searching. Your case has been an extremely long and protracted one. They say recovery can take up to two years, but from what I've read, I don't think you've actually entered that stage yet. There have been portions where you have been able to work on yourself and that is good, but I believe that you're still waiting on your W to begin recovery. (Has she agreed to send the NC letter yet?) Do I have any specific recommendations, unfortunately no (at least not yet). I've been doing a lot of reading lately, trying to be a sponge. Have you ordered the Wild at Heart book yet? Maybe some older, wiser MBers here will have better advise for you. At least I think you're open to improvement and that's definitely a starting point. Good luck!

RH </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks RH, my W has agreed to No Contact, as far the letter we have POJA'd to a compromise of her writing me a letter affirming her commitment to our M and no contact with OM. I'm trying to move onto recovery and from everything my W is doing, being accountable for time, no secrets etc...I trust she's on board. I think I need to lead the way and change me thus affecting her to intiatie change in herself. I cannot "CAVEMAN" my M into being better. The UNGA BUNGA's aren't going to do it, neither will guit or anything resembling force. This is so complicated.

Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
a journey to get our spouses back...BUT maybe that's not the best goal or there might be better goals.

More personal goals perhaps?...

My W being home and OM cut out of our lives doesn't necessarily fix everything now does it?

No it dosen't fix everything. It is an opportunity more than a solution. A sort of second chance.

I was so focused on those tangible results of having W home, and OM gone that I so wanted to exhale, but its becoming more and more apparent that a happy M especially one touched by so much infidelity may be in need of so much more. I may be in need of so much more, me, myself personally so that I can be that better H.

This is a wonderful thought. A glorious quest for yourself, your true self.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> I was so focused on those tangible results of having W home, and OM gone that I so wanted to exhale, but its becoming more and more apparent that a happy M especially one touched by so much infidelity may be in need of so much more. I may be in need of so much more, me, myself personally so that I can be that better H.

This is a wonderful thought. A glorious quest for yourself, your true self.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep,
I don't really have a choice do I? It's either work on myself or live in the misery of suffering with the same issues over and over until you implode. I was getting frustrated, it's time to stop and get focused.

Thanks for the sentiment, I appreciate it.

FM,

For me,,for US, the decision to rebuild our marriage and cease ALL contact with the OW WAS a time to exhale. To take a deep breath and ready ourselves for the huge task of rebuilding. No,,not push things under the rug , hide the elephant but to shove that elephant in the corner til we could get rid of it.

Any chance of a short vacation? Maybe even just a weekend get-away without kids? Just the opportunity to relax and talk. No, not about the past or the relationship but just to reconnect. We decided to go away for a few days. He asked me where I wanted to go or what I wanted to do. You know what? It had been sooo long since I actually thought about what "I" wanted,,I had no idea WHAT "I" enjoyed anymore. It kinda scared me that I felt like I had "lost" me! Since I like laying out on the beach reading and it bores him to tears, we compromised. We went fishing with me laying out on the boat reading and him fishing. Great start to POJA! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

FM, you've worked hard. This has been a very tramatic experience. Don't lose sight of the fact that YOU matter! You are important too! I'm not saying ignore the marriage building but take care of YOU! I think you're on the right track. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

the key is that you both follow up and do some sort of couples counseling.

if you can't find a counselor who is familiar with MB and everything here, then I suggest the following:

http://www.imagotherapy.com/

find a counselor certified is saving couples and rebuilding marriages.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
It's either work on myself or live in the misery of suffering with the same issues over and over until you implode. I was getting frustrated, it's time to stop and get focused.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I certainly remember being stuck in this exact quicksand myself.

My H was back on board the marriage train.... and I was miserable .... caught in the mire of my dark moods, my resentments, my lack of self respect.

I had lost my sense of self ....

Be patient with this new journey of yours. I think I was searching for about 2 or 3 years before I started to really get what I was looking for..... for me it was more like a slow turn .... not a quick jump to new ground.

Pep

FM,

Welcome to reconciliation! Now starts the road toward recovery TOGETHER. I'm at work right now so can't post in length like I want, but I'll go over your post again in detail later when I have a chance to shut the door & gain some peace myself after the craziness of 3 kids wanting dinner, dogs needing fed, etc.!

Just wanted you to know that I saw this & I join you in celebration of your reconciliation & prayers for a solid recovery.

Love in Christ,
Y

I see where time is important, I must still be reeling, I mean I would have to be. Right now my W is the most committed she's been to our M in what 4 years? Okay, I did somethings right, even if they weren't all controlled decisions. I have done some important, healthy things for our M, some by default maybe, but we're here. My W wants another child. I want another child, but timing is important. I feel wounded, depleated, but I feel if I show any signs of this she will flee. I need her comfort but once again I don't believe she's in any position to afford me that. I must journey on my own road of personal recovery if not I fear more turbulent waters will ascend.

I'm alot more upset/Frustrated than is healthy for my M and for myself. I can only reason this to be an aftermath of all my efforts to save my M and sometime of expectation of things to be better after the A. My desire to save my M, bring my W home and get on with the business of a loving couple are a bit premature.

This is perfectly understandable. I have been facing this myself. It seems while the WS is away, we plan A & do so much to improve ourselves that when they come home, all the anger/hurt/frustration comes to the surface. But this needs to be handled delicately & worked on too b/c if this continues, it will destroy what we're trying to build.

My W does seem to be more content and happy then I've seen her in months, but we aren't HAPPILY MARRIED

It will take time for the happily married part. A time when you can look back & say, We survived this. And we're still going strong. That's when you can say you're truly happy. When you know you've weathered the severest storm & still enjoying each other.

I guess I must slow my horses and possibly do some real soul-searching. NC Walker has suggested months ago the concept of the Christlike Servant Leader or something to that extent. I don't know what it is I need exactly, but there's much to do in my M. I do want to be a better H and to have a more connected happy M and family. I'm willing to do whatever is necessary to achieve peace in my heart .

Yes, I agree. This is time to really discover what you want from this M this time, what you want from yourself, your W, and if you truly mean it about finding peace in your heart, look to God. He'll give you the peace you need while helping you have patience & strength to get through the next year. Let God lead you down that path & you can't go wrong. Let God guide your steps up that hill.

I think I need to lead the way and change me thus affecting her to intiatie change in herself.

Very true. If just one person follows the way behind God, the other will follow suit when they're going toward the same goal of recovery. Love and respect. Love her & she'll respect you. It's a never-ending circle. She already has shown you respect in coming home, agreeing to write a commitment letter to you & not to contact the OM. Very good start. Now keep loving her unconditionally like you have been.

You feel wounded -- tell her that. You feel depleated -- tell her that. Of course, in a loving way & let her help you heal.

Once again, congratualations. This is the new beginning of the rest of your lives. Make it count.

Love in Christ,
Y

FM:

You are asking a tough question of me. I am early in recovery, pleased at the outcome of the A ending and NC. But like you, things are not perfect. Pep said it right. It is not an answer, but an opportunity.

As the BS we struggle with the "fairness." If they asked us all to take a step forward if we demanded something of our WS after the A was over that was probably unreasonable, I'd be one of the first to step up.

It just doesn't make d@mn sense. We did all this work, swallowed all this cr@p, they sullenly and sluggishly agree to come back and essentially say "We'll see if it works." What the heck is THAT load of bull? Where's the remorse? It's d@mn confusing.

Know what that means to me? Means I need a fresh perspective.

======
FM: STOP READING RIGHT NOW AND DO THIS FOR ME. Get a piece of paper and answer this question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A good friend of yours is providing a shoulder for you to cry on. You just needed to unload and picked this guy. He is happily married with a few kids. He has had his share of marital problems, but his wife has been faithful. Not even a hint of adulterous behavior in the 10 years of his marriage. During his efforts to console you about your problem he says something like "FM, I understand what you are going through..."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now answer this question on the piece of paper. Does he understand, or does he THINK he understands? Tuck it in your pocket.

======

OK. Now is the part of the story where I brag about one of my personal heroes.

There is a physicist (deceased now) named Richard P. Feynman. He led an amazing life. He worked on the Manhattan Project. He was instrumental in quantum-electrodynamics. He was involved in the birth of modern genetic theory. He was responsible for kicking off modern diffusion theory. He was instrumental in the development of implementing numerical methods before we even had computers. He was the key figure who figured out the root cause of the space shuttle Challenger disaster. He foretold of nanotechnology. Most every pivotal scientific advancement since Einstein's relativity bears his thumbprint.

Know what? Most don't know who he is. Most assume he is some stuffy, geeky scientist. He wasn't. He was giving and thoughtful. He liked to have fun and knew how to party. He had an excess of personality and is described as a light to most everyone who met him. His biography is amazing.

He was also a husband to a woman named Arline. She was his first wife. She died (of tuberculosis, I think) when he was a young man. She was the center of his life. He cared for her and the disease quite debilitated her towards the end of her life. He eventually remarried, but I don't think he ever forgot her.

What a cruel twist of fate, to strive and have her taken away at the end. But would it really have been better if she had survived? If a loved one contracts an illness, falls into a coma, or requires EXTREME care for an extended period then comes out, what do you typically do? I would say rejoice, for the loved one has returned. After that, do you look at them and say they OWE you for the care? Of course not. You CHOSE to do it out of LOVE, not expecting to be paid back. You simply rejoice that they have returned.

Let that sink in...

Now ask, is your wife's affair any different? Yes, she CHOSE to stray and cause you to exert this GREAT OUTPOURING of suffering and love. But that was HER choice. We are talking about FM here, not his wife. What was YOUR choice? You CHOSE to exert this love to recover your loved one hopefully because you LOVED her. Not with some repayment of debt in mind. How is that different from the debilitating disease I spoke of above? It's not. You made your choice. Out of love. No expectations. Did you KNOW she would come back, or only HOPE she would come back? Does she now OWE you for something freely given? I don't think so.

Pull the piece of paper out of your pocket. What did you write on it? Your friend doesn't understand, does he? Next question: do you?

You understand what the betrayal feels like, because you have now been betrayed.

What you are asking/saying in your current thread is that you EXPECT that recovery should be a certain way BUT YOU YOURSELF DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. Why? You haven't been through it. If you were talking to someone who has fully recovered their marriage and told them you understood what recovery was like, what do YOU think THEY would put on the piece of paper if I asked THEM?

Tough question.

So what do you do next?

Simple answer, really. You be the best person you can be. You watch your expectations. Everything you "get" from this point forward is a blessing, not an endowment. Biblically, at what point are we EVER excused from doing our best?

If the current state of your marriage is not good enough for you, there really are only two choices. Suck it up and hope it improves, or move on. Neither of which is an excuse for you to NOT do your best. Hopefully, that will sink in for your wife and you will be in a healthy, reciprocating relationship.

But if it NEVER does, does that change your options or requirements? No. I would say this, you are more likely to be in the healthy relationship if you LEAD her there rather than PUSH her there. Funny thing about leading though, if you go to slow, you are typically overtaken, but if you go TOO FAST you lose the people following you. The pace you set is a balancing act. (By the way, if you can find the place where it is promised that this would be easy, let me know cuz I haven't found it yet.)

You know what the saddest thing is? All this is typically spelled out in our marriage vows, if we just take the time to listen. You promised to be good to her: honor, obedience, cherishing, loving. She did the same for you. OK. She broke her promise. Ask yourself this, did you end your vows with "...as long as she does the same for me." or did you end them "... til death do us part?"

Your disappointment in your current situation is because the enemy is feeding your head and heart with thoughts like ...

... my wife is the SOURCE of my happiness.
... she OWES me for what I have done.
... all of this pain wouldn't be here if she hadn't...

because HE WANTS YOU TO FAIL.

Let me rewrite the above lines in a pleasing way to help YOU get though your day.

... I am the source of my happiness. Praise God that my happiness spills over to my wife because I PROMISED HER THIS ON MY WEDDING DAY.
... I forgave her out of LOVE and as the Christlike model I am SUPPOSED to be, it is unconditional. Praise God for the OPPORTUNITY of showing I can stand and deliver ON MY WEDDING VOWS.
... Praise God that he never burdens me with something I can't bear and I will not let the enemy use this pain to TURN ME FROM MY WEDDING VOWS.

Then take a bow. You did it and you will do it. Even Jesus himself questioned the will of the Father, BUT HE STILL DID IT. Your integrity and honor can never be taken, only given. Don't let the enemy trick you into giving it away. That's what is going on here, and you must realize it.

I can't promise you that it will work out for you and her. I really wish I could. I really believe you deserve the best wife God can give. YOU need to reach out and pray that promise into existence, YOU are the spiritual head of your house.

The only thing I can tell you with certaintiy is this. Now matter how the Enemy chooses to cloak your situation on any given day, you can choose to STAY (with EVERYTHING that comes with it) or GO (with EVERYTHING that comes with it). The only other certainty is that for the rest of your life, you will have to live with yourself and your choice and you will answer for each and every one at the end of it.

I believe I can get YOU to answer YOUR questions (all of them) if you will just answer mine. Given all this, what's most important for FM, what she does, or what you do?

It's all about perspective. I keep you on track today, you keep me on track tomorrow. Both of us are going to make mistakes. Both of our spouses are, too. Why else would God teach us to forgive?

NCW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The one wrong thing that is hardest to change in a relationship, is the very thing that must be changed in order to save it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gimble has stung me with this comment, and I suggest others take note. The fundamental broken thing in our marriages remained unfixed even through better pre-affair times, such is the difficult of addressing the problem. It provided sand in the vaseline to such an extent that affairs ocuurred.

Pep says that having an un-hostile WS at home is an opportunity - well I agree - but it is an opportunity to either restore the broken marriage that led to the A OR to use the challenge of the A to address and fix the fundamental broken part as Gimble says.Like Dave Carder says in Torn Asunder, Crisis means problem AND opportunity in Chinese.

I have not yet deconstructed the core broken part of our M but I have started the process and I hope my WW will soon join me in it.

** FM my WW never physically left home but that has not been easy.The head games have been unbelievable. I too have been frustrated at the lack of progress, but I think WS do not know they are complying to a template and so do not look for signs of progress. Also different folks will heal and progress at different rates. My WW ha staken a couple of baby steps this week, and I am just plan A'ing until hey become more manifest and WW approaches ME with a desire to work on our M.

As ever, no "advice" from me, as I leave that to wiser heads, but just another vote for time, love and tenderness while your WWs head gets fixed AND to start delving for the central CORE broken thing in your M that you will NEVER have a better opportunity to address.

Blessings

<small>[ September 15, 2004, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

ncwalker,

...

aie-aye...

I'm slipping out of lurkerdom to tell you that I think that was absolutely one of the best posts I've ever read.

...ever

Thank you.

Really and truly, and from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

John

I'm stunned.
I'm seeing the issues that my M faces in a whole new light. The last 18 hours or so have been an awakening of what the core issues may be; Myself.
It's up to me to be that Servant Leader, there are so many things, so many things. My W had began indulging in some outside business activities, not really profitable, but they do eat up oodles and oodles of her time. This activity was one she started when she met OM and she had continued to involve OM in it unbeknownst to me since our reconciliation in late 2002. She had also agreed to leave this behind, now she is flip flopping again. My W has said herself that she KNOWS she must give up this activity of throwing shows in the entertainment industry, but if she knows this why does she continue? My did not sleep last night. She was up all night searching on the internet for leads and sponsors for a future project that she agreed at one point she wouldn't pursue. She has asked me to join her in this next avent to help plan it and run it. I guess her including me is her form of compromise, rather than give it up because it does require late nights away from home, involvement with many people that her H doesn't know, people she had been involved with or knew of OM never of her being in a M with me. I guess I need to lead by example? She knows how I feel about the issue, it's not healthy at this point for her to spend so much time away from home, it wasn't when we first reconciled and it isnt now. If I try to say, put my foot down she will only become defiant, and complain of being controlled. I'm at a loss if she gives it up because I coerce or reason, I'm at a loss if she continues to throw these events, with these people and subtracts all of this time away from our M. She must want to give this up on her own.

NC, I do see your points. No one who hasn't gone through my certain blend of M crisis will truly understand the depths of this ordeal. I did perservere through my W's affair out of love for her and my committment to her. I will lead by example, I will be such a loving, caring, servant leader that she will began to make choices for the betterment of our M without prodding. I have much to think about, much to consider.

Bob, It's a tough road and one we can only navigate with love and soul searching as to what kind of people we hope to be. I began reading my bible and studying last night. I have many obstacles ahead, many stressful decisions to maneuever with employement, finances, my M, my future goals, my children, their futures etc...I can only hope that we all can continue to support one another during the process.

Time to get my S off to school...

be back shortly...

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR RESPONSES!

Now that we are coming on board with a servant-leader concept, let me add one more thing.

It does not entail suffering a bunch of cr@p in stolid silence, either.

Your male STRENGTH is NOT in the "I'm the man and we are doing it my way..." kind of strength.

It is the "I'm the man and I am strong enough to maintain a tone of peace and respect in my home, regardless of what is happening around me..." kind of strength.

If your spouse is being disrespectful, by all means she should be told. You would tell your boss and still be his servant, right? Do it with respect. Use your strength to keep your head cool and CHOOSE the right time to do it. Establish proper boundaries for your family. You ARE the spiritual head of the household. Just make sure they are appropriate boundaries for Godly reasons and not selfish reasons.

I think you actually said it some time ago, FM. Maybe it was GrayCloud. Be a welcome mat, not a door mat.

NCW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ncwalker:
<strong> Now that we are coming on board with a servant-leader concept, let me add one more thing.

It does not entail suffering a bunch of cr@p in stolid silence, either.

Your male STRENGTH is NOT in the "I'm the man and we are doing it my way..." kind of strength.

It is the "I'm the man and I am strong enough to maintain a tone of peace and respect in my home, regardless of what is happening around me..." kind of strength.

If your spouse is being disrespectful, by all means she should be told. You would tell your boss and still be his servant, right? Do it with respect. Use your strength to keep your head cool and CHOOSE the right time to do it. Establish proper boundaries for your family. You ARE the spiritual head of the household. Just make sure they are appropriate boundaries for Godly reasons and not selfish reasons.

I think you actually said it some time ago, FM. Maybe it was GrayCloud. Be a welcome mat, not a door mat.

NCW </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am on board, reporting for duty as called. Its time I stop being a dictator and adopt a more spiritual mindset, this benefits not only my W but my C as well. I see no point in arguing with my W about her pursuits. I will again state my feelings on the whole issue, explaining how it detracts from the recovery of our M and simultaneously stifles me from re-developing feelings of trust in our her as my W. I do not feel this is being selfish. Me disagreeing with my W coming in at 2,3,4 oclock in the morning AFTER being discovered having an A for the last 2 years is not selfish, but quite reasonable. Trust must be reearned and our bond reaffirmed.

Please issue 2X4's if you wish...I can handle it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
I will again state my feelings on the whole issue, explaining how it detracts from the recovery of our M and simultaneously stifles me from re-developing feelings of trust in our her as my W. I do not feel this is being selfish. Me disagreeing with my W coming in at 2,3,4 oclock in the morning AFTER being discovered having an A for the last 2 years is not selfish, but quite reasonable. Trust must be reearned and our bond reaffirmed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was going back and forth on whether or not to post to you on this thread. Something just said do it, after your last post.

No, it's certainly not selfish for what you stated above. Not to hijack NCW's keyboard, but I think the message was don't harp on it and concentrate on what was discussed. IMHO, I "hate" the analogy of any "mat" being used for a person. (I know where you were coming from NC.) But in my interpretation, it's still laying down. "Welcome, and do what you please to me 'cause you're back."

There's a fine line between a mat and a good plan. It's a skill that is developed with practice. FM, you've had plenty of practice.

I really don't know where I'm going with this (once again.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Just a vote of confidence, along with everyone else, my friend.