While vacationing in early August my suspicion antenna went up when my wife received a text mesage on her cell phone. She was not available so I tried to answer the phone only to find the access locked. We had a 'discussion' about why the phone was locked. I didn't feel good about the answers. I told her that I was concerned about people who hide things but profess that they have nothing to hide. I remained alert in August for other signs. When my home phone bill came in I reviewed the detail. I found several calls to the same number I suspected a problem. I asked if she could show me her cell bill, which is office based and usually doesn't come home. When I reviewed it I valideated many calls to the same cell number. As I now know the OM is a coworker. He is married with two kids. She admits that they are good friends but insists that the are not romantically or sexually involved. I am angry, hurt, concerned, etc. I know from the records that they have talked via cell phones almost every week day during the months of July and August. My wife commutes to her office four days a week. The drive is just over one hour each way. She leaves home at 6 am and returns home at 7:30 pm. The call volumes and duration range from 5 - 8 calls per day with total durations like 12 minutes, 23 minutes, 55 minutes, 89 minutes, 108 minutes, etc. I wonder what 'good friends' can be discussing for that amount of time. Help me understand. Help me find a way to have her understand that I feel betrayed. She hid this friendship from me and I think it was wrong.

I suggest that you inform OM's wife about the frequency and length of the cell phone calls ASAP. Provide proof. Do you know his name? You can find out if she would view that level of conversation to be 'just friends'. At the very least she may encourage her H to end the friendship with your W.

If you don't know his name you may be able to do some research to find that out. You may need to pay for that information.

You could tape a voice activated recorder under the seat of her car to find out one side of what they are talking about.

Trust your gut.

Look at the replies you got on your first thread, and respond.

<small>[ September 15, 2004, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Trix ]</small>

Thx Trix. I have great records about the calls but no voice information. I know his name and went to see him myself on Sept 7. I asked him straight out to discribe to me his relationship with my wife. He said they are 'good friends'. When I showed him the records he said, wow. He knew they were having 'drive time' discussions but not at that level. He confessed to be happily married, and in no way interested in anything deeper with my wife. I asked him what he tjought his wife, or his boss, would say if I showed either the records. He said they would probably see the same dangerous picture I had seen. He, just like my W, said the data suggests something that really isn't real. They have just been talking, mostly business, but naturally some personal things. Know as well that some of the conversations occurred when my W was on a beach vacation with her three girl frinds. In fact my wife and the OM taked for 92 minutes on the Friday. During the whole weekend she only talked to me three times for about 10 minutes total. I am hurt and upset because she had over 1000 minutes of conversation in the two month period. She confesses her love for me and her commitment to our six year marriage. She has stopped the drive time conversations and apologized but I just can't seem to break the cycle in my mind.

Thx Trix. I have great records about the calls but no voice information. I know his name and went to see him myself on Sept 7. I asked him straight out to discribe to me his relationship with my wife. He said they are 'good friends'. When I showed him the records he said, wow. He knew they were having 'drive time' discussions but not at that level. He confessed to be happily married, and in no way interested in anything deeper with my wife. I asked him what he tjought his wife, or his boss, would say if I showed either the records. He said they would probably see the same dangerous picture I had seen. He, just like my W, said the data suggests something that really isn't real. They have just been talking, mostly business, but naturally some personal things. Know as well that some of the conversations occurred when my W was on a beach vacation with her three girl frinds. In fact my wife and the OM taked for 92 minutes on the Friday. During the whole weekend she only talked to me three times for about 10 minutes total. I am hurt and upset because she had over 1000 minutes of conversation in the two month period. She confesses her love for me and her commitment to our six year marriage. She has stopped the drive time conversations and apologized but I just can't seem to break the cycle in my mind.

DiceMan,

I know exactly how you feel. My husband has one of those "friendships" with another woman as well. He met her at work about eight years ago and he was helping her with job-related issues and then he also started listening to her personal issues with family/boyfriend etc. and it quickly developped into an emotional affair. They would talk literally for hours. I had no idea because when this first started happening there were no cell phones etc....

I eventually found out about the EA, when my husband confronted me on Christmas Eve and told me that he didn't think that he wanted to be married any longer...

Trust your gut instinct. Something isn't right, especially since she is hiding things, locking her phone etc. My husband did the same thing. His EA restarted last year and I found out accidentally when I came acrossed a saved IM conversation between the two of them. In addition, he used to call her all the time and his cell phone was always locked up, password protected and in his car. He would sneak out at night, walk the dog and talk to her.

I'm glad that you were able to confront the OM, but I would still suggest that you expose this to OM's wife since the inappropriate conversations continue on. There may still be time to save your marriage before things escalate to a full-blown affair. You are very lucky that you know where OM lives, his name, family circumstances etc. He has no business talking to your wife for hours at a time and neither has she. Just the fact that she is hiding these calls from you, shows that something is not right or she would tell you about it. Him talking to you was good, but he could very well be backing up what your wife says just to hide what they are sharing. Partners in an A often work together to be on the same level in case something is discovered. I would say expose to his wife right away.

If I knew my OW's fiancee name and whereabout's, then I would call him today, but I'm not so lucky. My H's calls to her have not been very often anymore, but it still bothers me.

If you can nip it in the butt now, do it.

Good luck to you!

Kati

Thanks Kati: Seems that the consistent message is to go with my gut instinct. Unfortunately my gut really feels bad now. I do want to salvage my marriage but I am so angry about the deceit that I can't think straight. I had an earlier posting about this matter but I can't find the message or replies. Any instructions on how to find them?

Hello,

It is absolutely essential to contact the OM's wife. This is at least an emotional affair if not physical. Did you really think this OM was going to tell you the truth? This is classic how an affair operates. Again it is absolutely essential to share this information with the OM's wife. She has a right to know this information. My guess is that they are probably laying low right now because they got busted. Please contact the OM's wife now. I wish you luck.

Diceman, I will mostly respond to your subject line:

Yes, your W is involved in an EA. According to Shirley Glass, author of the book ”Not Just Friends”, a platonic friendship, edges into an emotional affair when three elements are present:

* Emotional intimacy. Transgressors share more of their ''inner self, frustrations and triumphs than with their spouses. They are on a slippery slope when they begin sharing the dissatisfaction with their marriage with a co-worker.''

* Secrecy and deception. ''They neglect to say, 'We meet every morning for coffee.' Once the lying starts, the intimacy shifts farther away from the marriage.''

* Sexual chemistry. Even though the two may not act on the chemistry, there is at least an unacknowledged sexual attraction.

From your posts there is definitely emotional intimacy and secrecy and deception between your W and OM. Your W’s “friendship” with this OM is totally inappropriate. The people involved in such a “friendship” will often deny the existence of sexual chemistry or not aware of it on a conscious level.

Glass says:

The new ''The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they've crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love,''

''In the new infidelity, affairs do not have to be sexual. Sometimes the greatest betrayals happen without touching. Infidelity is any emotional or sexual intimacy that violates trust.''

IMO, the words ”We’re just friends” is often the first indication that something is wrong and that the “friendship” is not so innocent and/or platonic anymore.

You have all the reason in the world to feel suspicious and upset about this "friendship" and your W’s inappropriate & damaging behavior needs to stop.

I agree with the others, inform OM's W ASAP.

Good luck,
Suzet

<small>[ September 15, 2004, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by DiceMan:
<strong> ... I had an earlier posting about this matter but I can't find the message or replies. Any instructions on how to find them? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DM - Here it is (hope this works...):

previous thread

YS

Of course it feels bad. It is because you know instinctively that something is not right in your marriage. I know this feeling all too well.

You have a right to be upset and angry, but if you are trying to save your marriage, you may wish to direct your anger into a different direction for now, expose this "friendship" to OM's wife ASAP and then start on Plan A.

Your wife is probably going to be very angry when she finds out that you told OM's wife and she's probably going to say some very hurtful things. These are "textbook" responses to exposure, but I think that exposure will definitely help your marriage as well as the OM's marriage.

Don't ignore it! I know this hurts and you feel like someone kicked you in the stomach. It is hard to believe that the person that you love so much would betray and hurt you like this, but she did and now it's time to clean up the mess. So, get the ball rolling...

You can always come here to vent and to talk. People here understand.

Kati

This is the same thing which happened with my H and I.

I discovered he was talking WAY to much to a co-worker even when he was laid off and I happened to discover the 'friendship' by pure happenstance.

I believe that my H was clueless to the dangers of turning outside the relationship and bonding with another woman in this way.

He has had many friendships (not EAs) over the years with female coworkers and didn't see how this was different. I pointed out that my total lack of knowledge of this other person, the frequency of their interactions, the topics of personal chit chat, etc. was BAD NEWS!

He read about how affairs start on this site and recognized that indeed it had crossed the line to EA.

He spoke with EA OW and told her he was not going to continue the relationship since I (his wife) and he had discussed the inappropriate boundaries crossed (the OW had just left her H due to physical abuse and she was using my H as a sounding board about her situation..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Have your wife read the MB 'how affairs begin' and see what her response is?!

HTH

deleted due to double post (computer connection was slow!)

<small>[ September 15, 2004, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: picklesaresour ]</small>

Dice,,,

Congrats you are now a certified detective!!!!

Why do I say that??? Because you know there is more to it,, that is why you are telling MB about it. You will now investigate your wifes past actions until you find the bitter truth.

I found out the same way about my wifes affair,,, I got the same response from her,,,, I talked to the OM who gave me the same thing.

I knew there was more to it,, so I did some detective work and bang,,,,, turned out my wife was banging this dude for 3 months.

I hope I am wrong but it sure sounds like the classic response from 2 people having an affair.

A word of advise,,,, dont worry about the days her and the OM talked on the phone. Look for periods of no conversation on the phone.

Most wayward spouses set up routine rondevous.

Look for days he and she did not call each other then try to account for your wifes whereabouts that day.
If you find a particular day say no calls made on fridays and it is repeatitive for every Friday.
You have just uncovered a physical affair.

My wifes day was on mondays and wednesday nites..

I really hope I am wrong!

Pickles,

You are very lucky to have a husband who understood that this can lead to disaster. My husband is very much like that. I think that he is often very naive in what can happen when he talks to other women about their problems. Unfortunately, unlike you, I did not catch it in time and it developped into a full-blown long-term EA (8 years!!!) and I think that my husband got very close to this OW, sharing stuff and everything. He is still in contact with her, but it is only very sporadic, yet it still bothers me a lot. He does not seem to understand that it is not appropriate for a married man to talk to other women like that. Yet, he gets very very jealous of any man who shows interest in me.

At one time when he wanted to leave me, he even said that he does not want me to date any other men because he couldn't handle it. Strange, hmmm???

Kati

DiceMan - Hate to agree with eric n. on this, but I have to. This is exactly what happened to me - my H and OW began emailing each other at work, then it moved to emailing each other on secret email accounts, then it moved on to cell phone conversations around the same time period that it moved to a PA. They both vehemently claimed that it was just a friendship (she still does), but after six months of lies and my GUT feeling that it was more than a friendship my H finally admitted it. Yes - it took six months of painful detective work and it was only AFTER I had indisputable "evidence" to the PA did the truth actually come out. So investigate before confronting anymore is my suggestion. Check credit card statements, cell phone bills to see if there are any calls occuring during work hours, and check your computer to see if there is evidence of a hotmail, yahoo, or other email account. Good luck and I sincerely hope that you caught it before the PA. ALSO - listen to everyone's advice on calling the OM's wife because I didn't do that when the lies first came out and I could have saved myself a great deal of pain if I had!

Dice,

I had posted to your previous thread, asking if your W also worked in the same building as the OM.

If they are talking on the phone all this time and then meet each other at work....then it is way obvious that there is more going on than business talk.

Also speaking to him while she is on vacation with girl friends much longer than speaking to you???? DUDE!! Go with your gut on this.

I also asked about her computor and emails.

Its good to stop it early.

Bravo for confronting the OM.
k

By the way..along with both their denial of any more than a friendship with proof of all the cell phone records...the OW bought my H a new secret cell phone. My H really tried to make it seem like I was the crazy one. It took months to finally admit to myself to the obvious (PA) without actually catching them in the act. I had to get very sick first...stopped being able to eat or sleep...thus the advice to trust your gut.

I also really hope you have caught this before it went PA.

I agree with Eric that you can find patterns in the cell phone records. I'd see calls just before lunch, then a hour and a half later another call.
You may be able to figure out if they were making shorter calls to plan a meeting time/place or if it was just a long convo on the way to work or home. Maybe be different since yours are co-workers.

So, sometimes when it may seem like contact has stopped they have just gotten trickier.

thanks to everyone who has taken of your time to share experiences and offer suggestions. But here is where I am and still uncomfortablee wih what to do next. My gut, which many advise following, says to keep asking her questions trying to get to the bottom of the WHY? and what? The taping of phone conversations is a great one but now that sehse is on to my suspicion, I don't think she is having cell conversations. My guess is that if they are communicating it is via text messages or email. Neither are available to me. By the way it is now 8 days since I met with him and she says that he has only contacted her once ( yesterday) via email about a work activity. He did ask 'how she is' and she responded 'fine, hope you had a nice weekend.' When I originally learned of the EA I was going to see him the next day. She begged me not to so I held on over the labor day weekend. I did go see him on Sept 7. My W was/is really upset that I took the action. She would be horrified if I go see the OM - W. I have more details about cell phone times/durations so I will look for the pattern of 'setting a meeting". She has even called him at times when we were together enjoying a day or evening of 'fun'. She claims not to have realized how much or how frequently they talked, but I am just having difficulty with all of this. She promises to end all contact...but from apractical work perspective that is impossible unless she resigns. Let me hear what you think.

Sorry but one more question. She wants to stop talking each evening when she arrives home because she feels like a 'battered' wife. She says, 'I am sorry you are hurt, I didn't do anything wrong, we are just friends and coworkers, I never intended my talking with him to hurt our marriage, I love you and I'm commited to you, so please stop asking me questions. Advice?

Hello again,

You made a critical error when you told your wife you were going to talk to the OM and then waited over the weekend to talk to him. Of course your wife got nervous because she did not have a chance to talk to him when you first said this but I am sure she contacted him when you gave her time to do so. You lose the power of surprise. Would you like to bet that she talked to him so he was quite prepared and calm when he talked to you. I am sure he and your wife worked on their stories together. She gets nervous when you say you will talk to the OM's wife because she cannot coordinate the story with her.

Let's be realistic. She works with this guy and never stops talking to this guy until you catch her. Something sounds very fishy. Never tell people what you plan to do. In fact, check your phone bills and I bet you will see calls being made to him by your wife after you threatened to see him. You lost the element of surprise and what you heard from him was a planned speech to you that he practiced over the weekend. How do you think your wife would be feeling if the roles were reversed?