weaver -

This is what I am working on now - detachment, although I feel like I have detached. I know for sure I don't want WH back, but still am sorry about the failure of the marriage.

Let's try to support gray. It is so nice to see a good man, trying to save the marriage. Plus it doesn't hurt that he is talented, funny, and cute.

Golly, believer, you're too kind. For many years we agreed that we didn't want children. She warmed to the idea before I did, but she didn't tell me how she felt. She clung to the idea that I didn't want them, even though I told her in plain English that I was starting to feel differently about it. The last time we talked about it before everything went to hell I told her I thought we should. She had no memory of the conversation.

Car4love came and hung out at my house all evening. We had pizza and just hashed through everything once again. We've kind of beaten the horse.

I left the sparrow a message that I just wanted to have a quick word. She never called back. Maybe tomorrow. I'll try again in a few days. If she kills communication with me again it will be disappointing.

I see I have such a long way to go still. The second I saw that deep pain in her eyes today I started to cry. Just like that. Instantly. Funny - in all this, that's the first time she's seen me cry. And it was because I saw she was hurting.

Another exchange we had, before the crying: she said, "This sucks." I said, "Yeah, but it's voluntary." She disagreed.

It's harder for me to see her as a horrible person right now. If she has no feeling for me, why does she cry?

Oh, wah wah. I'm actually doing far better tonight than I expected I would be. That's a surprise.

Detachment, huh? Not yet.

GC

I was sort of passing gray and wondered how you were doing. Read the latest and thought here is someone who's given it everything but the ww wants the fantasy instead of the reality. Can't figure it but its just one of those things.

I can only say that I think now you need to move on, I don't mean jump into any serious relationship right now, but just start going out and meet new people.
If anythng develops out of those meetings well let it, though anything serious should be taken SLOWLY if it ever develops.

I suppose its the last thing you want to hear now, but its time to stop letting her hurt you all the time. Probably will always be pain when you think of Sparrow, but thats natural I think.

I do think you should for your sake stop holding onto hope she may come back. It does sound to me like her affair and realtionship with the OM is doomed, but maybe you have to let it go. I'm not saying it will never happen, but just dont expect anything from that quarter.

If in the future she finds herself alone and realises it has been because of her actions, I'm guessing she will have a lot of soul searching to do. I think she needs to hit the ground to know what it is that she has thrown away. As my old man told me years ago, Its not the falling so much that hurts us but the bloody sudden stop at the bottom.
If you are there to catch her, and I understand why you would want to, you may not be doing her any favour. Sometimes it necessary to let those you love and want to protect hit that bottom.

One day, if my daughter meets someone with your level of integrity (rather than the dipsticks she has gone out with so far, & they need a haircut too) I could probably accept her wanting to marry him... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> nah who am I kidding theres no one good enough sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But I really do wish you the best Gray

GC - I'm sorry it didn't go better. But the fact that she cried and is in pain is a good sign to me. It shows that she is finally started to feel guilty about what she is doing. IMO, this if a very important step. Up until now she was able to justify everything she was doing. It looks to me that reality is setting in. When is Car4Love's child due? That is going to put a serious dent in the relationship.

You have come so far and grown so much as a person in the last few months. No matter what happens, you can be proud of the person that you have become and look back with no regrets. You have done everything you could have.

Hang in there!

Hi Gray,

I've never posted to you, but I read your threads. Much like everyone else around here, I guess.

I'm not the type of person to give good advice -- I'm pretty clueless in my own situation let alone try to give others advice. I like showing support, though. I agree with kloe in that you should feel good about yourself knowing that you've done everything that you could up to this point.

I have a burning question, though....

What did she say about the dog - Matilda?

svb

Kloe - the child is due January 20. Inauguration day?

The sparrow did not respond much to Matilda. Used to be, if she saw a border terrier she would squeal and freak out. This time, she just petted the dog for a minute and went to work loading things up.

Thanks to everybody for your support. I guess we're on the last leg of this now.

Its not the falling so much that hurts us but the bloody sudden stop at the bottom.

I like that one. If my WW hasn't hit, she at least can see it coming. But she doesn't see me there to catch her.

GC

Okay, err, I'm going to, uhm. Point something out, here.

For all those who are recommending that graycloud, who is young, handsome, and has no children, should start dating and meeting new people:

Please, would you stop that? It's really pretty anti-marriage. GC is not divorced... so what you're recommending is that he go start the beginnings of what is commonly known on this board as AN AFFAIR.

*sigh*

GC, please don't do that. It's unethical -- it will do harm to you, to anyone you date, and to your wife.

Instead, I really really really would suggest that you follow the sage advice found in Surviving an Affair, to whit:

Help her move out if you can stand to. Then implement Plan B.

It's amazing what happens when the dumper becomes the dumpee.

There is no way Gray will start dating, he is totally, completely in love with his WW. She moved out and filed for divorce almost immediately after he found out about the affair, leaving little chance for him to Plan A or anything else.

I know that Gray won't date now, but he needs to know that his life is not over because sparrow left him and moved in with another man. And that he still has an awful lot to offer, hopefully with sparrow, but if she won't allow it than with someone else.

I for one would love to see Gray and sparrow reunited as I came to the board right before he did and I know how much his marriage continues to mean to him. And I would never advocate dating while still married, also for the reasons you stated.

I dont think I need 2 2nd JustJ's warnings, because she's right AND I know gc is doing things right.

I do want 2 point out that sparrow is behaving just as expected in a "classic" A si2ation, whatever the heck that's supposed 2 be.

I do NOT think that this is anywhere NEAR over, gc.

You've heard people tell you "it's always darkest before the dawn." I know I have. I've heard it so many times over the past 32 months that I wonder a lot just how dark it can GET, because it still seems 2 get darker.

But it's true. I don't know whether this is "near" the darkest part of the night or not, but it will 2rn around at some point.

When it doesn't for a BS, it's not because it COULDN'T, I fear. It's more because the BS lost patience for the process 2 work.

I don't think you are losing patience, but I do know how hard it is 2 remain patient.

best,
-ol' 2long

Thanks y'all.

Date? Not a chance. Weaver's right. And I plan to wear my ring for quite a while yet.

Now. Don't anybody bother telling me that my friendship with car4love is dangerous. I'll dismiss it. With that out of the way... she gave me a birthday gift last night. It was a small thing, but it was also the only birthday present I received (I did get some great cards), and it was a wonderful gift.

So today after I dropped Matilda off with the breeder (I think I'll take her again next weekend), I drove out to my parents' house.

On the way, driving through vacation land, much that I saw seemed a fake, cheery veneer drawn over a world that's full of sorrow.

My folks weren't home, so I sat outside waiting for them. I took out the thing car4love gave me and read the inscription, and I was at once moved that she gave me this thoughtful gift, and deeply saddened that the sparrow has not cared about me for all these months. I cried a while, then the neighbor came over and let me in with her key. I'd finished a big ole mess of crying about a minute before she came over. I'm sure I looked miserable.

It was good to spend some time with my folks, since I was feeling all cruddy and needed a little sympathy.

Sparrow still hasn't retuned my call. She's so far gone...

So yes, today was dark. Somewhat better now.

Thanks again,

GC

GC, I have no advice. Just kind thoughts.

All blessings and happiness mate.

re: friendship with car4love, the OM GF in my situation wanted to meet for a drink. I considered it but with my W now a FWW and NC in place (it seems) it was inapprorpiate. In your case, what do you have to lose? That platonic alliance may just restore both relationships one day soon.

well gray, i'm just now getting on this thread, not that you were anxiously waiting or anything like that. i only have computer access at work.

my 2 cents...
you did what you could, when you could, and you will continue to do that for as long as you can. you talked about "legs" earlier. well that's exactly what this is, a "leg" in the marathon and you want to continue to stay the course. it's not a sprint and you want to have enough energy to finish the race. what exactly is the finish? well it could be full recovery w/the sparrow or it could be a new relationship built on the MB concepts.

you are continually having to act based on sparrow's choices and that's what they are-choices. she may not like the choices but that's what they are none the less. again, just like my H everything they do and say or things they don't do or say is all about them making themselves better. yes, what she is doing is pretty much expected (like someone said if you can call it that). but until you actually plan B you still plan A. it doesn't have to be anything official but i think you get my drift. i'm glad you still gave her the video. now she may have just took it back it to her place and thrown it away. but she had to consciously think "graycloud is on this" and hence she threw it away. or maybe she even watched it out of curiosity. bottom line is you gave it to her and now you don't have to beat yourself about NOT giving it to her.

i've only been here a few more months then you but it's amazing what the time can do to help you come to terms w/things. unlike you and the sparrow, me and my H were not good friends for the past probably 5 years and have physically lived apart for about a year now. of course that was not my intention when i left, he was supposed to be coming where i am but obviously that's not how it turned out. anyway, my point is that i didn't even think that would be where i am at right now emotionally and mentally towards my H. i still love him tremendously and want reconcilliation but he seems hell bent on the path that he has CHOSEN. even though i haven't been served yet i still expect it every day but i'm at the point that i'm not afraid. i think i will still be sad but i think these past months have helped (along w/the grace of God) allowed me to grow and do some healing to where i don't really get emotional over things anymore.

my H is the only one that i've ever been w/and i only dated a few other times before i met my H (met the day after my 17th bday). in the beginning of all this and up til a couple of months ago, i would get phsyically ill if i even contemplated being in another relationship or being w/someone else. all i could think of was all the pictures, memories, etc. but i know that there is someone out there who will Love me for the way i am now, not because i need to lose more weight before i think my H will be attracted to me, that there's someone out there who believes the same way i do, and there's someone who will never cheat on me. the more and more i think about reconciliation w/H the more difficiult i realize it would be for so many reasons. i was willing to do almost anything to get my H back and keep him. even if it meant having a child which i'm still totally afraid of doing (too much to go into here), i was willing to never put on a pair of sweat pants again, and give up any aspirations i have about my career.

i've come along way and you have and you will too. it just takes time. i cannot say don't talk to sparrow or talk to sparrow. i feel like you have a good grasp on how to handle things but you just tend to second guess yourself when it comes time. SH says to keep communication lines open and to always leave the WS w/a good picture of yourself and you should continue to do this. again, in part, it's being able to look back w/out regretting what you didn't do during this time. some times it's all you can do to get through the day or even to get to sleep or want to get out of bed. but God's grace and mercy can help you and provide for you as no other.

continue to seek God's wisdom and direction for your life and you can't go wrong. continued prayers to you, RR

RR, it's true. I am at the mercy of the sparrow's choices. Once, the other day, she said, "This sucks." I said, "It's voluntary." And she said, "No."

The hardest thing to hear the other day was, "I don't want to be married to you any more." And then, "I realize now that over time my love for you went away."

She keeps closing the lines of communication. I thought she would call me back the other day. Now I have to play this game, figure out whether or not to call her again, and when. I want to ask her - but won't - if she can please just try to act like a human being towards me.

I think I've pushed a little too hard when I've seen her. I may be in "he always wants to get into R talk" role, even though she's always been the one to initiate (and end) those conversations.

I'd like to get together somewhere where we can have a conversation, and not push on the R talk. I could offer to talk about STUFF, and when that's settled ask her if we can get off the R/D subjects altogether and just hang out for a while.

But I don't know. I think she doesn't feel as much sadness and loss if she stays away from me. She doesn't want to deal with that. She wants to stuff it.

GC

Hey there GC - sorry I've been MIA. We've got a lot going on, needless to say. I think you did really well!! She CANNOT hide from the pain of what she's doing - it will always catch up with her. So even if she avoids you - she will find that it will not fix anything inside of her.

Everything she said is pretty classic. I told my husband I didn't love him - that it was a mistake to have gotten married - that I could never love him again - yadda yadda yadda. Certainly how I felt at that particular moment - but not how I feel today. So don't take her words at face value. She's running and will try to slam all doors shut on her way out.

graycloud,

I know I'm not very talkative on your posts and all, but I wanted to give you a word of encouragement. Sometimes the WS in a marriage just can not face themself and what they've done, so they put themself into the position of having to defend what they know in their heart is an impossible position. I believe your sparrow has done just that thing...the way she has behaved and the way that she claimed that OM is her "soulmate", she can not possibly retract that now--even though she is horribly hurt and sad, she just can not see a way to stop defending this impossible position she has put herself in!

Sometimes, as BS's, we can do what we can do to work on ourselves and fix our side of the issues, but we can not force our WS's to do the same. Sometimes we have to respect them enough to love them inspite of the choices they are making that are destroying them. It's probably the most difficult thing ever, to watch the one you love self-destruct and continue to make choices that harm them--but in the end, it is their choice. And whilst sparrow may feel it's not optional, you and I (and most of the folks here on this forum) know that it is indeed a CHOICE and it is indeed OPTIONAL. She just doesn't see it.

Meanwhile, you do not have to be a captive to sparrow's choices. She does seem determined to go through with it, and the day does come when you get to reclaim your life and start making your own choices, graycloud. You are choosing now...choosing to not actively participate in "making this easier" or "hurrying it up". You are choosing to be true to your own self and not give up on your sparrow. But there is a difference between "not giving up" and "letting go." Letting go means that you continue to love them and continue to be the honorable, faithful, peaceful person that you are, but you give her the freedom to go on a different path without you. It means that you walk your path and she walks her path--and if she chooses to go in a different direction, or deny her responsibility, or avoid dealing with the damage she has done, then you see that it will hurt her, but she is free to do that.

Be of good courage, graycloud. I know it feels awful right now, but it does get better.


CJ

Hope and CJ, it's great to hear from you.

I realized this morning when it was time to get up for work that I haven't really slept since Thursday and I'm just plain exhausted. So I'm blowing off work (actually just telecommuting) and taking a down day.

Somehow, in the face of the sh*t-guzzling feast that was my weekend, I have, thanks in large part to this thread, somehow come closer to achieving a more permanent state of hope without expectation. At least for today...

Thanks everybody.

GC

Oh GC! If I lived closer to you, I'd have come over and we could've paited a crappy armoire and made it beautiful....it helped me tons (of course slut red is one of my fav colors, and everyone should have at least one piece of slut red furniture in their house, imo - it'd have made a world of difference, I promise).

I'm so sorry. Hey! At least you didn't break your tibia sk8ing! That's more than Z can say!

I'm making my Lilo do the hula for you...hope she can help cheer you like she does me!

Some miscellaneous ramblings inspired by GrayCloud and HIS story....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GC:
...a more permanent state of hope ...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Know the part of the Bible that goes "faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love?"

LOVE is an expression from US to ANOTHER HUMAN. Perhaps the greatest in God's mind because it involves ANOTHER HUMAN who would also be one of his children. Which of us parents would not endure hardship so our kids were treated better? Which of us is not happiest when our children are happy? LOVE is an expression to another.

FAITH is an expression from US to GOD. It is belief with lack of proof. It is us saying "I believe in you God because my heart tells me to." It is like singing praises with our feelings instead of our voices.

But what about HOPE? HOPE is for US. It is an expression, or promise to ourselves, that things will get better. It is our salvation in our loneliness. It is our resilience in our own need. It is our comfort in our humility. HOPE is the gift we give OURSELVES. It is not spawned from weakness or fear of facing reality, it is a CHOICE, the same as faith and love, that our own self WILL perservere. It is looking for the light in the end of the tunnel.

It is knowing that for every gray cloud, there is also a rainbow.

You are on my heart,

NCWalker

Bump for GC - Mainly so he knows what an inspiration he is.

Thanks NCW. I assume no news is good news w/r/t you and RAP. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Some of this recent struggle with the sparrow had to do with her wanting to take the china. Stupid china. I'm not going to fight over it. I think tomorrow I'm going to box it up and drop it off at the house where she's supposed to be living. I'm not going to be reduced to squabbling.

GC