Tonight during band rehearsal my MIL called, very upset. She's been so good to me, and is in a lot of pain. I sent her a thank you card for thinking of me on my birthday, and she said she fell to her knees crying when she read it.

She told me the sparrow steadfastly denied ever bringing OM into our house and having sex with him in our bed. OM told car4love that it happened, and when I've brought it up with the sparrow, both times, she has neither confirmed nor denied it.

My poor MIL said she feels like she's 105 years old. I tried to stay off the more horrible topics, but we couldn't avoid it. We wound up arguing a little. At one point she said, "You're trying to make me feel sorry for you." I took offense and went on a little harangue, and she told me "Shut up! Don't get angry with me!" I said, "I'm not angry, this is called righteous indignation." She said, "You have a right to be indignant," and the confrontation passed. We ended it well. She talked about me needing to get on with my life. I said, "MIL, you know what it's like to experience a loss like this, you know how long it takes." I was referring to the sparrow's father, who died of cancer when he was around 40. Unfortunately, I doubt very much I'll hear from MIL again. It was a very difficult conversation.

And of course she said, it is over, no way is the sparrow ever coming back. You know, I pretty much believe it. At this point, how could she? With so much damage done, how could she ever see herself as my equal? I know this subject has probably been pinged a thousand times here.

From the sparrow's point of view, the A would always be there, casting a dark shadow over us. I would always have this over her, is the way one of my friends put it. I tried to explain that embracing that shadow and achieving forgiveness is the whole idea, but the band was skeptical.

I think my WW is really feeling it now. It seems like even though everybody in her family has given up, the pain continues to grow.

She even told MIL about how she cried at our house on Sat., and how as soon as I looked in her eyes I started crying and took hold of her.

I guess she probably told MIL that story to make the point that "this is hard for me too".

If she doesn't feel anything for me, why does she cry?

Not anything really to go on here, I just thought I'd start a new thread. This chapter, where the sparrow gets the stuff she's going to keep from the house and the D process gets some momentum, promises to be a toughie.

I have to say, the idea of moving on to a life that doesn't have nasty stuff like this screwing it up is starting to feel like a good, clean thing. I miss terribly having a woman in my life. Nothing beats it.

Whooo, long post. Sorry, over-tired and blabbering.

GC

<small>[ September 22, 2004, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>

GC, your posts always make me so sad.

I've told Cellophane this story and I know it's probably the last thing you want to hear.

My son (who is 26) had a very intense relationship with a girl - not married but he really thought she was the one. Anyway, she cheated on him and then turned the knife once or twice (or a billion times).

He has since met the sweetest, prettiest, loveliest girl. And if the parents (us) love her you know she's got to be good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> She is turning his life around in the best possible ways.

Sorry, GC, I know you're not looking or anything of the sort. I just look at my super-happy son and know that it can happen.

Jen

Golly, Jen, I'm sorry my posts make you sad. I can't help it.

If this is going to end, I can't WAIT to be available again. I feel it will be very, very hard to replace the sparrow. But that doesn't mean I won't try.

And for what it's worth, I'm having more occasions where I imagine myself with someone new.

My lawyer is about my age, very attractive, and is in the middle of her own D (her H cheated twice). She said when I'm ready to go back into the world I have to throw a party and invite her. She flirts with me all the time. Hm.

GC

GC, you are such a cool guy and, as Believer says, SO cute.

I think I just wanted to tell you that my son says if all that hadn't happened to him, the best thing in his life wouldn't have happened to him. He reckons it took the full 2 years to really trust someone again.

BTW I think you know that H and I are doing unbelievably well. When I post now it's sort of almost like JL. Not part of it anymore, just wanting to help.

Mixed messages, sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Telling you we made it, but talking about my son. I don't know if you read the Jelly thread - a lot of people lurk there LOL. Our DD is also going through a lot of relationship stuff right now and being united parents makes me SO glad I made the right decision.

Jen

Okay, just a couple more thoughts tonight...

I've been in plan A for almost five months.

I think it's time for me to do just a few more good things, then get into plan B. I think I'm also not going to do anything special to stall the D, aside from fussing over the details of the termination agreement, which I'll do at my leisure.

I've done well in plan A. Now I need to let go. I can't be out there fighting for this M any more. I've done all I can, and I can't hold on and let myself get dragged down with my WW as she falls. My ability to do a good plan A is faltering. I'm beginning to speak my mind and worry less about the consequences.

The sparrow is getting trouble from all sides. OM, who has a new job with a software company, has also taken a part-time job at a coffee shop. They're busting their butts to protect the A. Okay, they can have it. Enough already.

I have to settle a few things, should take a week or two, and then I'm gone.

GC

GC, I don't know what to say. But I have been reading all your posts and keeping. I just haven't felt like I have anything to offer anyone on MB anymore.

Unlike the sparrow, my STBX doesn't have the capacity for guilty feelings. I too am ready and willing to move on with creating a better life for myself with a trustworthy, loyal, supportive woman. And GC, you are right --- Nothing beats having a woman, a real partner, in your life.

GC at some point even the bravest captains stop baling and get in the lifeboat instead.

Only you know when its time, friend.

I know that 'loveless' feeling though - its terrible, and makes you want to seek love from someone else if your WW doesn't want to offer it.

We deserve better.

All blessings, mate.

Graycloud -

The timing for Plan B is right. I suggest you start getting your letter ready. Your wife really needs to see what life will be like without you. Even though she has had little contact with you, the thought that you are still available to her needs to be removed.

Poor Sparrow. Her affair is going NOWHERE. I still think that OM will return to car4love.

As for your MIL, I suggest that you let her know that you will not discuss Sparrow anymore. That is what I did with my WH's family. I let them know it was too painful for me. It has preserved our friendship, because frankly, I got tired of listening to their fogtalk.

Yes, believer, I'm going to have to promise my in-laws I won't talk about the sparrow.

This plan B letter will be a little different I suppose, given the unusual circumstances (barely any contact already).

I'll be extremely, extremely surprised if making myself unavailable has any effect on my WW.

She does not seem to believe in redemption and forgiveness. She doesn't even want it. She would have to give up OM for that.

GC

GC - You posts - geez, how do I put this? I am not sad. I see a strength in you that wasn't there months ago. I see a bruised, BUT NOT BROKEN spirit. I see a gentleman who has tried to be as compassionate as possible in the worst situation. I see a person that doesn't have to give up his love, he just has decided to LIVE no matter what. You, no matter how sick it makes you to hear it (and I know it does because it makes me heartily sick to hear it said about me) are strong and good and kind and will survive this without it defining who you are - and you are a better person for it, no matter how distasteful and ugly the path was to get here.

So there. PHPHPHPHT!

GC,

I am troubled by this statement and its implications on your self respect.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel it will be very, very hard to replace the sparrow. But that doesn't mean I won't try.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please go back and read what YOU have written about the sparrow and try to explain how hard it is to replace a person that has treated you like cr*p.

I think Plan B is MUCH more of a necessity for your apparent lack of self esteem than it is trying to get back anyone with sparrow's qualities.

Start Plan B yesterday.

<small>[ September 22, 2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Cymanca ]</small>

I feel it will be very, very hard to replace the sparrow. But that doesn't mean I won't try.

Even if you are trying to replace the "good" sparrow, I feel sorry for the person that tries out for that role...

Yes, you will find someone lese eventually.
Don't rush it. Don't make it a "requirement" that you do find somebody.

But when you do, enjoy them for who they are and what they give you and what you give them.
Don't try to "replace" sparrow.

Fellas, don't be too troubled by my statement.

I was in love with the sparrow like nobody's business for eleven years. Finding someone else I feel that way about is what I mean by "replacing" her. I'm not talking about looking for somebody as much like her as possible. That would be crazy.

I still like one part of her. But aside from that, I don't want the person she has become.

I admit it, my self-esteem is sort of demolished. It's a daily challenge to not take it personally when you're rejected by your own wife. But I'll be careful not to fall in love with the first woman who's nice to me. I won't even give myself the option until my deadline, which is a ways off.

Actually, I've received a warning already. When car4love gave me a birthday present, I felt that now-unfamiliar rush of good feeling you get when somebody of the opposite sex sics their "giver" on you. Don't worry, I'm not going to fall in love with OMW! I know what that feeling means and what it can lead to. I know its name, and its address, and I know I'm jonesing on it. It can't sneak up on me. It was good to experience it once as a reminder. I know to avoid letting myself get caught up in it until I'm healed and eligible.

My personals ad:

Recently divorced male, 34, blond, fit, 5'11", seeks the 1st woman who will not treat him like total crap for a very very very serious relationship to get started w/ASAP. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

GC

dubyal

<small>[ September 22, 2004, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>

Gray, Yep, that is what Brett used to say. He was going to get counseling, stick with MB yada, yada, yada.

Then a young lady 10 years younger than him smiled across the pool table. He was a goner. Didn't even make it until his D was final.

He knew he was sliding down the slippery slope and went YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Recently divorced male, 34, blond, fit, 5'11", seeks the 1st woman who will not treat him like total crap for a very very very serious relationship to get started w/ASAP.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You forgot acerbic wit, and won't allow self to be chained to only one genre of music.

My dear friend, people are not replacable. Sparrow as she was and really as she is, is not replacable. Unfortunately, poor sparrow doesn't know or refuses to acknowledge that - she'll forever now be doomed to try to replace people (unless she gets help for helself - and I feel SO much compassion and pity for that void she'll never be able to fill - it's no wonder why her poor mum feels so old, can you imagine your dearest daughter making such horrible and sad decisions - it's got to be eating her up, the pain her baby has caused so many people). You can, however, nudge sparrow over quite a bit and make room in your heart for joy in a totally new and DIFFERENT person. You, are NOT ready to fill that room yet, but you sound SO ready to do some serious nudging.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I admit it, my self-esteem is sort of demolished. It's a daily challenge to not take it personally when you're rejected by your own wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here, I gave this to Bob, and I'm giving it to you, too:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHATEVER HAPPENED BETWEEN OP and your WS is INSIGNIFICANT. They will never, ever compare to you...never be as loyal, never be as good and NEVER EVER be as loving and kind and wonderful as you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is rejecting you because you are TOO GOOD for her right? You know that, right? Albany (from the pg boards) and I were discussing this last night. We are both totally floored by this weird twist in the fabric of the universe that all of a sudden makes winners, good people like you and me and Bob be the loosers. It's the oddest quirk in nature I've ever seen (even besides duck-billed platypusses...or platypii???). We're the good ones, we're the loyal ones, and that's why it's okay to leave us??? Weirdness.

But know what? You are the good one, you are the loyal one, and you are the BEST one. I am, Albany is, Bob is....and you better put that in your low self esteem pipe and smoke it, because it's the God's honest truth and as your friend I ain't ever gonna let you forget it! You, too, Albany and Bob!

Now I'm gonna go and make my little Lilo hula dance, b/c she's cute and funny and her nuerosis are worse than mine.

- Kimmy

You all can quit worrying on me about this. They aren't exactly knocking down my door anyway.

The important thing right now is to get out of the madness and have some quiet, peaceful time to deal with my crap. Give the sparrow a chance to live in this new life that she claims she has no choice but to embrace.

GC

PHPHPHPT!

What-ev. I'll worry whatever the heck I want to worry about. It's in the Jewish Mother's Handbook that I can, and tho I might not be Jewish, I've taken every word in that book to heart and live it daily!

It's not really that I'm worried about you, anyway. I want you to finish your kayak, I want you to go make sure it floats (you know - that floating your own boat thingy), I want you to be busy and I WANT YOU TO HEAL AND BE HAPPY. I think you've set some amazing and insightful boundries for yourself regarding the opposite sex, but...YOU ARE DUE SOME FUN! YOU ARE DUE! Whether or not girl type critters are involved are beside the point right now. D'ya remember how amazing the world is? It is. This is the crappiest times in some of our lives, but the world is still AMAZING. The clouds are sherbert colored in the morning! Krispy Kreme gives out free donuts when the light is on in the window...if you put a piece of bread in your mouth before you chop an onion, your eyes won't tear....it's just too frickin cool to miss, kwim...and you are just too frickin cool to miss it, too, bud-ro!

- Kimmy

Kimmy, I must sound like a saddie. I can't seem to convince anybody I'm not that bad off, but I am with you, girl.

I love the magic hour. I love to sit on my porch in the rain with my campin' guitar. I love to be underwater. I love blueberries. I think music is a miracle. I feel almost religious about it. I like to pull weeds and stack wood. I love being barefoot. I love to sweat. Especially when it's running into your eyes and you wipe them with your forearm but that's just as soaked and it does no good. And yeah, damn my eyes, I go crazy for girl type critters.

And I'm excited about "protection phase". I can already feel the difference between getting plan-Bed (not accurate, but you know what I mean) and doing it myself. This is the ultimate boundary. I'm going to give the sparrow the china, let her have our coveted 50s lamps, and get the hell out of this mess.

GC

Hi Gray,
I keep reading, but usually don't have much to add beyond what is already posted.

I have seen a lot of folks come and go in the last few years, and I want to tell you that you really do well. I understand and know that it doesn's seem that way much of the time, but you are doing well. s

I admit it, my self-esteem is sort of demolished. It's a daily challenge to not take it personally when you're rejected by your own wife.

I thought about this one. It is hard not to take it personal, but lets look at it another way.

Your W didn't reject you as much as she was caught (or is caught) in an addiction. If someone is addicted to drugs, or alcohol do we say we are rejected by them, that they gave us up for drugs?

She either walked into, or fell into a trap, and she is caught, and she feels like she can't get out. You could tell her how, but she (being fog bound) can't understand, let alone follow the directions.

Now, I am not trying to take her free will out of this, but I am trying to say that you feel rejected but she has admitted you are in the right, and that she knows it. She has admitted that she ought to be home with you working on this. She has admitted that she feels lousy much of the time, and has a lot of guilt. Is this rejection?

Now, I understand emotional rejection, and I understand that you are relating your feelings, but I want you to think about the things SHE HAS SAID, SO YOU WILL REALIZE WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING. She is addicted - it's the addiction, not that he is better, or you are worse. Is living alone as a drunk better than being happy, and well adjusted with your family? See where she is?

She, like many acholics, hates the addiction, but doesn't believe anything can be done about it.

Your feelings are valid, but think about this, and realize who you really are.

I like your comment about music being almost religious. I agree with you. Look at the power it has in our lives - for good, or bad. Just like religion.

You are a cool guy. This will take time - and it will continue to hurt for the near future, but don't let hitting some wrong notes in one concert keep you off the stage.

Your best gig is still ahead of you.

SS

<small>[ September 22, 2004, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>