She calls me today to chat or whatever. I told her that I have work to do during the day this weekend and asked if she could watch our son during the day. She says that maybe my mom could come over to her house to watch him. I told her that as long as she is seeing OOM, it is unacceptable for my mother to continue their relationship. She tells me about how she doesn't agree with Torn Asunder and that she is not going to stop talking to OM.

Then I told her that that hurts, but it is her decision. That I do not want to have any contact with her at all. She says that if we can't have contact and be friends, she won't let me see my son. That the courts will have to decide.

What am I supposed to do???????? Screw Plan A, there is no such thing. Plan B is impossible because I have a 5 year old with her.

Hope is gone. Hope is too painful.

CALM DOWN ! Panic will lose you everything.

Plan A has worked for many folks and in any case is a prerequsite for a good plan B.

I suggest you take no action in haste. You are far too excitable for a successful plan A IMO. Whether you MB or not, I suggest you find a way that works for YOU to become more measured in your responses to you WW. Panic will drive her away and REWARDS her fog demanding behaviour with your compliance.

All blessings. I hope wiser folks than I can help you here. I will only comment on Plan A as I have experience of it.

<small>[ September 22, 2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

OK, thatsall, we need to start from the beginning.

I searched for a post from you that describes the background of you and this affair, but couldn't find one.

Please start from the beginning and tell us your story. Do not leave anything out.

I suspect you do not really know what Plan A is about. Maybe I'm wrong. But read my canned Plan A description just below in the quote in case I'm right. Then read the link in my sig line and all the embedded links on exposure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The way I understand Plan A, it's based on two premises that must be accepted:

1. The BS cannot end the affair.

2. The affair developed, to some extent great or small, due to a poor marital environment which the BS, to some extent great or small, helped create.

If a BS cannot accept these two statements as givens, they will not be able to implement Plan A.

With these facts established, there is only one constructive thing a BS can do to influence the course of an affair: change the affair-friendly marital environment by eliminating the BS contributions to it.

To this end, the BS must perform an introspective search for all the things they were doing or not doing that contributed to the WS's decision to have an affair - and then eliminate those negative contributions. These may include failure to meet emotional needs or disbursing too many love busters - but is usually some combination of both.

This DOES NOT mean that the BS "caused" the affair. This DOES NOT mean that the BS can or should try to change failings of the WS.

It simply means that the BS needs to change and improve the only thing they have control over - themselves - to eliminate love busters and begin meeting as many emotional needs of the WS as they can.

Central in this is stopping all disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, and demands. This is agonizingly difficult in the face of an affair. A BS has to counter the common knee jerk reactions of demanding the WS "straighten up" and delivering ultimatums and threats. Acting in this fashion simply reinforces the WS's rationalizations to conduct the affair in the first place - because the marriage "is over" or expendable and the spouse is unreasonable, therefore the affair is justifiable.

Invariably, this course leads BSs to feel like doormats and [censored] kissers. It also conjures up thoughts of enabling the affair by not resisting it. But the better logic to apply is that the BS isn't a doormat or enabling because they're doing the only things in their power to stop the affair - it's just counterintuitive to the initial reactions. This doesn't mean that boundaries shouldn't be set and protective measures shouldn't be taken.

Let me add that Plan A is all about the BS. You do not "Plan A" your WS. It is not intended to change ANYTHING but the BS.

I'll end this by offering that there is one additional thing a BS can do to alter the course of the affair - but I call it "destructive" rather than "constructive" (to separate it from the one and only constructive thing, discussed above). It's to expose the affair to the light of day. But this is NOT part of Plan A and deserves it's own discussion.

OK, one more thing. The affair is very, very likely to end DESPITE what the BS does or does not do. Until it ends, there is NO chance for reconciliation. Ideally, Plan A improvements can encourage the WS to end the affair sooner because the spouse's "causes" of it are eliminated. But regardless, following Plan A prepares the BS for a successful reconciliation whenever and for whatever reason the affair ends by jump starting the process - their share of pre-existing marital problems are already confronted.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I think I know what Plan A is about, I just don't think I can do it.

We planned on moving and I thought it would be a fresh start and was very excited. A week before (8-10-04) the move, she tells me about OM, on our 7th anniversary, she and my son moved to the new house. I have a bed, a 10" tv and patio furniture in the old, empty and painful house.

She has been seeing him since June, he is divorced (his ex turned lesbian and left him) and he will not stop pursuing my wife.

For the following two weeks, she saw a lot of him. Had him over to the house, playing with my son (who is very confused about everything, amazing how perceptive a 5 year old can be) and told me that we are absolutely finished.

Then for some reason she opened up, backed off of him a little and was friendly. I guess that's called having her cake and ice cream too, or something like that.

I tried to Plan A and just don't have the self control. I am either too needy or I get angry and tell her that we should not talk anymore. When I tell her that, she becomes nice again and cries... manipulative

Two weeks ago, she says that she stopped seeing him (inconvenient she's busy) but still talks to him. I have talked to him, I even talked to his mom!!!! (I called because I thought she was his wife) She already knew everything! I was at her new house painting my sons room and I told her mom that I wasn't moving in because she was seeing someone else. I've told my family. So I suppose it's exposed.

Anyway, the past two weeks have been ok, I guess. We fight less and saw each other often. I suppose I was still smothering. I was optimistic that things were moving forward.

Then I get another major setback this morning and I am ready to throw in the towel.

So this is where I am. She just wants to be friends. If I can't be friends with her, then she won't let me see my son. She wants to continue on with him and has no hope that our marriage is salvagable.

She says that she is in love with him and that I am only trying to stop it because I don't want her to be happy. She says all of the mean, spiteful and hurtful things she usually says after spending an evening with him.

Screw Plan A, there is no such thing.
Yes there is. It's called "Plan A".

Plan B is impossible because I have a 5 year old with her.
Plan B is very possible, even with children.
HAve you read "Surviving An Affair" by Dr Willard Harley?
Read the links at the end of my post.

I think I know what Plan A is about
What is it?

I just don't think I can do it.
So you are happy with her having an affair then?

She has this big huge hang-up about us remaining friendly after our divorce. My mom and dad don't talk after their divorce and she keeps saying that she won't have a relationship like that. If it is that way, she takes away my son. She says that it is selfish for me to not want to be friends and that I am manipulating her. So I feel if I should remain freinds with her and act friendly toward her that I am condoning the affair and letting her have everything that she wants. I don't condone the affair and I can't believe that her selfish fog would take away my son's father.

If it is that way, she takes away my son.
Shew can't just "take away" your son.
You go to court and get custody.

As far as being friends, it's not sonemtihgn that has to happen. However, you should maintian at least cordial communications since you have a daughter and will have to communicate at some level.

FYI There are very limited talks about you and when he tells me he loves me
there is no comparison between the two.

I don't hate you I will never trust you again - I lost respect for you when
you lost sight of me and ignored what I wanted and needed.


She just sent me that....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> thatsall
Junior Member
Member # 37509

posted September 22, 2004 01:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI There are very limited talks about you and when he tells me he loves me
there is no comparison between the two.

I don't hate you I will never trust you again - I lost respect for you when
you lost sight of me and ignored what I wanted and needed.


She just sent me that....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Classic WS talk.

She's learned how to be a master manipulator.

I'm not quite sure what you want though......do you want to try and save your marriage or do you want out with limited contact with her and visitation or custody of your son?

This beginner MB'er is calling it quits.

Crash and burn..........

I don't want to destroy what you love. That is why I am giving you the
freedom to continue loving him if that is what you want. So you cannot
blame me for being selfish and corrosive. I think that by letting you love
another man, **** another man, and move on with my life by letting you go
is the epitome of being unselfish. There can be no greater showing of
selflessness.

This selflessness is at your expense??? That's news to me.

Continue to do whatever YOU want. If you need permission from me, here you go:

You have permission to do whatever you want in your life. You are permitted to leave this marriage, to never look back and to never have contact with me again. You are permitted to get divorce papers drafted up. You are permitted to pursue your relationship with Jim. You are permitted to do whatever makes you happy. You are permitted to be as spiteful and vengeful as you want to be. You are permitted to continue blaming me for everything. You are permitted to do whatever you want, whatever!

YOU ARE FREE

YOU ARE OUT OF THIS MARRIAGE

I WILL NOT ATTEMPT TO GET YOU BACK

I WILL NOT CONTEST THE DIVORCE

Now that is unselfish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is it what you really want?

I just looked at your posts on other threads and there is alot of good advice being thrown your way......but you don't seem to be "getting" it.

There is no "easy" or "quick" way to get through this....you will have to go through the "doormat" stage....and any other stage that my come....but you have to want it.....and frankly...and I'm sorry....but that's the only way I am....I don't get from you that you REALLY want to do it.

I really don't think she is waiting for permission from you to do anything.....if she was...she would have asked you if it was ok to have an affair in the first place.

<small>[ September 22, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]</small>

I can not stay as composed as all of you. She knows my buttons and she has gone through every one of them. When those buttons are pushed, everything I've read and everything you have told me is lost. LB,ing my way to divorce court.

This is not my wife, and if she can be this cruel and hurtful to me and our son, I don't want to have anything to do with her.

I have gotten superb advise from incredibly insightful and caring people on these boards. I thank you all.

But when you say hero's gig, you ain't kidding.

I do not have enough self-control to manage as well as you all are.

I can not stay as composed as all of you. She knows my buttons and she has gone through every one of them. When those buttons are pushed, everything I've read and everything you have told me is lost. LB,ing my way to divorce court.

Then change your buttons.

You can do this, and you will. You have no choice, this is what you have been handed. You can handle it like a man, or handle it like a spoil kid, but one way or another you will handle it.

Most of the people here went through exactly what you are going through now, and they were just as distraught and angry. But after awhile they realised that this was for real, so they got real.

Nobody would choose what you are going through, but you are every bit as strong as anyone else on this board. Don't you doubt that for one minute. It's a fools gig, but you are up - so what are you going to do with it?

Now you hang out here with us, and you will turn out just as tough as us. Okay?

I'm afraid it's far too late. Too many rage-mails. Talk about LB'ing, I'm more bankrupt than US Airways.

Let me be an example of what not to do in Plan A. For me, it's Plan A-in't no chance after this.

(((((((As long as you continually blame me to make yourself feel better you will destroy those men that are unfortunate enough to get involved with you. You will continue to carry the same BS into that relationship. You will learn that this scumbag has more issues than even I. And when you realize that it is his love that is selfish, for all of the reasons I had emailed on Monday, that he will just take and take from you. And when you realize that he will drink every single night to escape his pitiful past, and he will get angry and punch you in the face. And when his words of "I love you babydoll" don't stir up the deceitful butterflies in your belly. This stupid lie of a relationship, that is founded on loneliness, despair and selfishness will crash sooner rather than later. Mark my words.


I urge you to try and prove me wrong. Hang out with him every night, crawl into his arms, make him dinner, have him move in, have Harrison call him "dad", make holiday plans, decorate a tree together, buy a Radko ornament, spend Thanksgiving with his family, go to the local bars with him, go dancing, buy him gifts, take him to the park with you and Harrison, take him to the movies with you and Harrison, take him to Harrison's recitals and conferences, have him over your mom's on Sundays, have sex with him every night, tell him you love him and cherish him, and promise him that you will never, ever cheat on him. Play the part. This time it's for real, right?


And when this shabby lie of a love relationship comes tumbling to the ground, which it inevitably will, I will not be around to pick up the pieces.

Good luck. ))))))

I suppose you're right, after the fact. I do have to handle it and I do want to come out with my dignity. The way I have handled it thus far is childish and embarassing. I fear that I take one step forward and two steps back. When she is in her fog, I reinforce it with rage-mails. I am pushing her to him. I am forcing her into his arms. I am a whining, selfish brat...

I'm afraid it's far too late.
That is what many wayward spouses say after they are in an affair and that is a big reason repairing everything is so difficult.
Tehy are afraid to say, "i messed up & I'm sorry".

I'm confused?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

You say you can't do something and then you say you will do something then you say you won't do something then you say you have to do something?

Take a stand man!

STOP LETTING HER PUSH YOUR BUTTONS!

If you start to feel like going off on her, tell her you have sometihg to do real quick and you will call her back in a bit.
If you write something and feel the need to send it to her, DON'T!

If you cannot get control of yourself, why would she wan tot do anything to get back with you?
MB is about learning what your bad behaviors are and stopping them and learning what good behaviors you should be doing and then doing them.

Hiya, thatsall. Could I have a minute of your time?

Let me tell you a little story.

My WP did something very similar to what your wife did. There's a bit of a difference in the story, but I won't go into that right now. (Those of you who know me can laugh out loud, now.)

Here's the thing about bringing the kids into it: It's the equivalent of bringing out the nukes. It is a blast that yanks on every single one of your most primal drives. You are, as soon as she uses that card, dealing with many millions of years of evolution that is telling you that NO ONE may mess with your kids.

I understand that really, really well.

Because of that threat, you're currently throwing absolutely everything at her. LBs, appeasement, the works. If you were a cave man, you would have run out of spears to throw by now, but you're not. You've got tons of words left.

I recommend that you STOP THINKING LIKE A TYPICAL MAN.

I know, that's chauvinist of me. Then again, I'm a girl and my attorney told me the same thing.

You want to spend time with your kid? Then assert your right to do so. She does not have to give you permission to do it. Start spending, RIGHT NOW, 50% of the time with your kid. Figure out a schedule that works for you. Put him ahead of sleep, eating, work, and Internet time. Your kid needs you, and it is NOT okay for your wife to deny you access.

Start keeping a record of every minute you spend with him. Just write it on your calendar. Show up at his school for events. Take him to school. Take him home from school. Volunteer in his class. Do outside activities with him. Get as active with him as you possibly can.

If anyone asks you why, say that you've been giving in to your wife on this issue in the hopes that it would ease the tensions between you. However, she's begun to threaten to deny access, and you will not allow her to cut off your relationship with your son.

Tough measures? Absolutely. But this is NOT the time for you to think like a man. Think like a Mama Bear. (Those who know me very well can now laugh again.) Think big, think protective, think smart.

And do NOT, under any circumstances, allow these threats and punitive measures on the part of your wife to go un-named.

In fact, one really good thing you could do is to simply move into the new house. It's in your name as much as hers, isn't it? And when she threatens to kick you out, tell her you're not leaving.

And when she threatens to leave with your son, tell her she's welcome to go anywhere she likes, but you will not allow her to take your son with her. And then call the police if she tries.

dove tailing onto JustJ's suggestions, allow me to offer something that you now qualify for. (Other MBers can send me your smiles separately)

You have an opportunity to do a really INCREDIBLE 180!!!!

Hear me out.

You have screwed up Plan A SOOOOOOO badly so far that you may have established the most terrific opportunity for a 180 that we have ever seen on this forum.

What's a 180? This is Michelle Weiner-Davis' "Divorce Busters" term for doing a complete turnaround all of a sudden. For you this would mean IMMEDIATELY stopping all your bad juju that you've been doing and become a model MB citizen.

We'll help.

But this means you HAVE TO STOP all your angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements and demands RIGHT NOW!

RIGHT NOW!!

Get it?

Become a admirable, calm, controlled loving husband. Be sweet and gentle. Admit your past disgressions to her. Be a wonderful father. All of this all of a sudden. A complete 180.

Write her a Plan A letter. Describe what you have realized now about how you weren't doing a good job in the past as a husband. Describe how much your family means to you and yes, that this crisis has been a wake up call of epic proportions.

Be humble. Seek HER forgiveness.

This will likely blow her away.

It'll certainly get her attention.

Can you do this?

It will require tremendous control and restraint on your part. You will HAVE to swallow your pride. You CANNOT depart from this plan once you start.

But it is guaranteed to get you out of this LB hole you're in and may be your best bet.

Your son deserves no less. For him, isn't this...

worthatry
??

<small>[ September 22, 2004, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

I am having such a terrible morning.

I'm afraid that she is WAY TOO addicted to this soul mate idea.

I would rather be respectable throughout this than be a jerk. I really don't want to LB, not so much for her, but for my own sanity.

I am ready for a 180.

She called me this morning crying. "do you really want to give this a shot?"

Then I started babbling. Stupid, I can't shut up babbling. I said, of course I do, but we certainly have to talk, I understand that you feel like you are in love with him, that you have found your soul mate, and I wouldn't want to tell you that we should get back together, because when you are with me, you're depressed, you feel guilty and you pity me. Then a week later, you'll call him and when you are with him, he makes you so happy, you feel like everything with him is true love...."

man, I can't shut up..... I just keep diggin it deeper and ddeeper.

Ok, so when she does say something like that what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to say??

Please advise