MB friends,

HELP!

H says he can't stay with me, that I am either angry or sad.
I will admit that I am often sad and often angry at what has happened to us. But he he conveniently forgets all the times I have been plan Aing well and been happy and upbeat. He forgets that regardless of the pain he caused me I still allowed him back into my life and my home. He remebers all he did to try and save our M but can only remeber the lack of control that I had not his.

Over the past year he has lied to me often, walked out on me twice refused to go to MC and just asked me to be normal. I tried but his distance was hard for me to deal with and sign of C were very hurtful. He told me I took the distance between us and made it worse- maybe I did, but how else do you deal with your best freind becoming your enemy.

I am sick of blame, I am sick of the pain but I still love him and want more than anything for us to find happiness together.

I have cried, begged and asked him to stay. I have tried telling him to just go if that is what he wants to do and stop tormenting me,

How does he expect me to show positivity when this is what I have to deal with.

So how do you suggest I handle this. As far as I know his A is over but he may call her now. Is it time to plan B or any other suggestions?

I hate what we are about to do to out kids.

BUMP
Any thoughts.

Arty,
Did he leave or is he just threatening to leave? Why did he return the other times that he left?


I know that you're in alot of pain and I'm sorry that you going through this living hell. I've been there and I'm a little tiny bit pass your point so I will try to offer advice from my own perspective. I'm still new here and 4 months does not a veteran make.


As far as Plan B, it really helped me. I was plan Aing too long and before I had begun to LB out of frustration. My W says the best thing I did was expose her A, the best thing I did after exposure was to let her leave and try to get my head together. When she came back after only a couple weeks, I had already begun detaching from her to the point that I could control my LB's and my emotions. I don't feel comfortable telling any spouse to let their spouse leave, but if thats what he wants how can you stop him? You can't stop him from leaving, and being needy and begging will not aid his withdrawal or your sanity. The sad part is, right now he can't see the pain that he's caused you, and maybe that's a good thing, because if he did, he'd probably dash right to OW. We BS's tend to believe that the WS not seeing the true depths of the suffering they've caused as a slap in the face, but I'm beginning to be thankful my W still doesn't feel that immense guilt yet. Just think about that point for a second, if our WS's knew, would they be able to deal with it? I mean they are going thru withdrawal which is hard enough, if you couple that with tremendous guilt from hurting so deeply the real loves of their lives and for what? Get my point?

Okay, Plan B is really a last resort, it implies that the WS is still in contact, if you're convinced he's not in contact but you're still LBing due to insecurities about the A maybe Plan B isn't the right route, but learning to control your outbursts might be. I know my comments seem a little harsh, but that's how I understand the principles. If he's not in contact why would you go to Plan B? What's the objective, you definetly cannot work on the M if you aren't having any contact with him? This is a process and though we BS's would like to speed onward to recovery, there is no rushing the due time our spouses need to get where we are mentally to aid fully in saving the M. If you are like me, you are tired of waiting for you needs to be met, but if your like me, you would rather be married than be right. Please give him time to come to his senses fully. When you feel like LBing due to your H's indifference or lack of support in mending the M, come here to vent. He's just not ready. It's not fair at all, when they come home they should be ready to roll up their sleeves and work on the M right? I agree, but that's not our reality, our reality is they are home withdrawn, with mood swings, indiffernce and nonchalant like they didn't just play soccer with our hearts, right? Arty you are a caring, loving W who deserves happiness, you've worked so hard, but you can go a little longer. Is there still contact? If not, please see this as a positive and maybe that's all your H can muster at the moment. I know it sucks, but its possible he's doing all he can to get through his withdrawal from OW. I'm sorry to sound like I'm on his side, but I'm not. I'm the side of you M.

I'm sorry your in pain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ September 24, 2004, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

Hi FamilyMatters,

He is threatening to leave but hasn't gone yet. I think the thought of leaving the kids again is hard for him. He returned the first time when I found out about A and second time left for a weekend to 'think' and decided to stay home.

As far as I know there is NC but I have been wrong before. Yes, I do LB out of fustration that he doesn't meet my EN and doesn't care about my pain.

Maybe part of my mistake is that I so wanted him to see and understand my pain. He saw it but didn't show the compassion I wanted he just felt I was hurting him with it.
I also was so excited for the chance of a new and improved M - I wanted recovery NOW and rushed him away from me,

I do sometimes think if I let him leave it could be the best thing for us but I am so scared to be without him and the pain it will cause the kids. If I have learnt one thing from this ordeal is that no one is controllable and he will do what ever he wants to do but I can try not to LB so as to make it easier for him to stay if he choses to.

Questions:
Other than keeping my cool and not LB how do I handle his down personality that is intent on leaving? Do I ask him what his plan is or let him tell me when he is ready? Is he just toying with me? Should I allow him to stay as long as it suits him even though he says he is going? And do I keep showering him with effection and positivity on the hope he will change his mind or is that just wishful thinking?

And if he leaves and is in NC do I plan B or what?

Thanks for your honesty, I keep trying to tell myself - I want to win my M back and that is my biggest goal.

S

Arty, you can't be "positive" when you are recovering from the greatest betrayal a spouse can commit, you will be angry and sad. However, you can cease from lovebusters. Your marriage will have a hard time recovering if you are lovebusting him. Are you lovebusting him?

If his last contact with the OW was last month, then he is most likely in withdrawal, a very bad time to be lovebusting him.

Is he still in contact with the OW?

ML,
I am LBing as far as he is concerned. He can not cope with my emotions and feels as if I am beating up on him when I show my sadness or anger. I am mistrustful when he takes a call, is late home etc. He hates that. He thinks if I wanted him I wouldn't behave that way and that I am more concerned with OW than fixing our marriage. He thinks I enjoy being angry at him. Is this LBing or is he so unfeeling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is he still in contact with the OW? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no idea. I have believed him before about NC to find out he lied. He misses her regardless of whether he is or isn't in C. He believes that she loved him unconditionally in a way that he has never known with me. So, it is hard to compete with all of that.

S

Arty - Just my thoughts as an observer, I am by no means an expert and unfortunately have zero experience with recovery. With the disclaimer out of the way here it goes...

It doesn't sound like you guys are in recovery at all. Sure he is there physically but that's it. Do you have a plan in place for recovery? Personally I believe MC is a must, especially when adultery is involved. There are too many painful things to be worked through and you have to have someone there to help sort through them. Have you guys discussed what went wrong in the M prior to all of this happening? What steps have you two taken to ensure that they don't happen. It sounds like both of your are still LBing. You can't sweep something like this under the carpet and pretend that it never happened. I think you know this, does your H? It takes two to make a M work, you can't do it all. Plan A is not a plan to make a M work. I think you guys need to sit down and talk, NO LB's. If he is not willing to work on the M you need to decide how much you can take, set your boundaries.

kloe72,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It doesn't sound like you guys are in recovery at all. Sure he is there physically but that's it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tend to agree with you.
We used to go to MC, H decided it was c@@p. We now both go to IC.
When ever we discuss issues about M we LB and blame each other. I have apolgized again and again for things I must have done that made him have an A. I have told him I never intended to hurt him and realised that I made him feel unloved as I went on looking afer his business, our home and our kids.
He is not prepared to make a plan other than one to leave me. He says my actions do not match my words so there is no point to talking. I just try to show him how much he is wanted and once he commits to staying (if he does) we can make a plan. Meanwhile I ride this rollercoaster alone,

S

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong> ML,
I am LBing as far as he is concerned. He can not cope with my emotions and feels as if I am beating up on him when I show my sadness or anger. I am mistrustful when he takes a call, is late home etc. He hates that. He thinks if I wanted him I wouldn't behave that way and that I am more concerned with OW than fixing our marriage. He thinks I enjoy being angry at him. Is this LBing or is he so unfeeling.


S </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How are you showing your anger? Give me a specific example.

And of course you are going to be sad. That is silly of him to expect otherwise, so you need to explain this to him. And you will be very distrustful, of course. You would be LESS distrustful if he would open up his life to you and check in with you several times a day. He has to work hard to rebuild trust. Does he understand that? You would be crazy to trust an untrustworthy person.

It sounds to me like he does not want to face the consequences of his destruction and that is not how this works, Arty. There is alot he could be doing to help your sadness, anger and distrust.

What is he willing to do to recover the damage he has caused?

Arty, take everything I say with a grain of salt because I'm not sure my ways are entirely the MB way. First off, if you don't know my story, my H did fire OW (his office manager) when I found out about the EA, which turned out was a PA. I was hard line on the firing part. I knew my boundery on that one and he could choose what he wanted, as painful as that was for me. She worked for another month, and phone contact continued till the end of March. The withdrawal was terrible. Personally I don't think real recovery even begins until the worst withdrawal is over. I Plan Aed during that whole time, with occasional nuclear LBs. My H has been extremely remorseful from day one. It would have been so much tougher if he wasn't.

I wonder if a big problem here is that you're not even sure whether he is still in contact or not. If he is then you are just spinning your wheels. There is no withdrawal if he is in contact. Of course the WS is a master lier. For me, when I really let H know that the truth was much better for me than the lies, he began to come clean. Are you able to hear the truth? If so do you think you could get your H to tell you what is going on? At least you will know what you are dealing with.

The other thing is he is blaming you for everything. As far as I am concerned the M issues can't be addressed until the A issues are. No matter what was going on there is no excuse for an A. Stop apologizing and don't beg. In my opinion you can tell him you love him and will do what it takes to recover your M and save your family. He has to pick up the ball at some point, even if it isn't 100% committment. He doesn't need to be threatening to leave.

As far as the "OW loved him unconditionally", they all say that crap. It's easy to love someone in the nice little A bubble world. I used to point that out to H. What exactly do they have to deal with? In our case how unconditional was the love when the OW wouldn't even discuss H's sadness about leaving our boys. Eventually my H's fantasy began cracking.

Have you talked to Steve Harley? He might be a good person to give you some clarity. Whatever you do, try to show love and strength. I know it's hard. You do have choices. Your H doesn't hold all the cards. Take care! CV

Arty I've been following your story since you first came here and I must confess, I have been suspicious about you being in recovery. Maybe it's because of my own experience of several false recoveries,but I have found it hard to believe that contact has really ended between your H and OW. His refusal to reassure you that the A is over is the biggest red flag, as well as his inability to comfort you or empathise with you. It is true that you cannot expect too much during withdrawel, but this is very different from still insisting on privacy and complete freedom, which I understand is the case with your H.

Have you stated your boundaries? Is he respecting them?

I know you have had false recoveries in the past. Have you noticed anything different this time? Each of mine was different and when I was in the same situation that you have described, where recovery doesn't feel too believable, I still had 2 more very convincing recoveries to live through. Recoveries when I was reassured constantly and where my H was supposedly an open book. This is why I have been worried about your situation, so if I'm being out of line, please put it down to me speaking from my own nightmares.

You have always said that you don't know if contact has continued and you even stated that you're not sure you want to know. Arty this is something you really need to know, otherwise you could be wasting you're efforts. Until the A is over, you will not see any results towards recovering your marriage. I really think you need to concentrate on finding out if contact is continuing, so that you can take steps to truly end the A. Only then can you begin to rebuild.

Are you doing any snooping? Is he do anything atall to prove he can be trusted. For me it was actually difficult NOT to trust my H, after all these years of complete trust. Even with all the lies he'd already told, my instincts wanted so much to believe him THIS TIME. It took far to long for me to learn that I should see him as guilty until proven innocent and not the other way around.

I think you if you can deal with this the MBs way, that you and your H have a good chance, but I'm afraid that you may exhaust yourself working on recovery if you may not be there yet. Perhaps you can use this time to gather more info from your H, so that you can be prepared with an exposure plan, should the need arise. If I remember rightly, you didn't have enough info for any exposure before. I do believe that exposure is the most powerful tool towards ending the A, so maybe you can make sure you are sufficiently armed for defending you marriage from OW.

Once again Arty, please forgive me if this post is out of line. I haven't posted for a long time for fear of using my own experience inappropriately in advising others. If you feel this is the case, then please regard me as the biggest MBs killjoy! I'm off back to hibernation now to lurk only for a while, but I wish you all the best and truly hope that my suspicions are all wrong.

Hi Guys and thanks all for your input,

H brought up issues this morning. Nice change from always coming from me, He said he is angry even when I am nice to him. I know, I just can't win at the moment. I told him I am sorry for his anger. He wondered why my attittude had changed and was mistrusting for how long I could not lose my temper. I promised him nothing but said I have stopped expecting things from him that he can not give me and hopefully that will allow me to control my reactions to things. He said it may be too little too late and I said that was his call but I think it would be a shame.

MelodyLane,
I used to lose my temper and yell at him often. I got angry when he came home late or even when he tried so hard to have fun with our kids. I felt he wasn't trying with me. I even used to think of how he could do nice things for me and when he didn't I was dissapointed.

I have thrown back at him things that he felt was openning up but to me was purely hurtful "I love two women and it is all your fault". So what is the point of this sort of honesty that I don't believe and find it hard to listen to and then use it against him in an arguement.
He doesn't think he needs to do anything other than be at home, the rest is my job to make it good for him. He has so much resentment about how badly I treated him pre A that he thinks I owe him a heap. He also says that he is not a serial A person and I should trust him without regard for all the lies I have endured.
There is alot he could be doing to help your sadness, anger and distrust. What is he willing to do to recover the damage he has caused?
He thinks I am the only one needing to change at this stage. He thinks I did all the damage. "He was in a desert and suddenly found some water".
 
CV55                 
Personally I don't think real recovery even begins until the worst withdrawal is over. I Plan Aed during that whole time, with occasional nuclear LBs. My H has been extremely remorseful from day one. It would have been so much tougher if he wasn't.
I think we both start our sagas in the same way but my H was never remorseful and always blamed me for where we were. I just wanted him to care and when he didn't I got angry.
My H thinks that the A is only a product of M issues and only wants me to behave differently. It is so hard with the A in the shadows.
I will try to talk with SH but the time differnces and school holidays have made it very hard.

Horizon, I suppose I knew there is no recovery till both parties are trying. I have stated my boundaries many times and he let me down (NC). Is he respecting them now? I don't know.

Each time I saw differences but never could define them until I found out C had resumed. So, yes it is different this time but how and why I can't put my finger on. Snooping is a big LB for H he just wants me to work on me and us and he says the rest will take care of itself. So I think I have to take that on face value for the moment and the worst that could happen is that I waste my time.

Thanks all and keep your advice coming it is for me my water in the desert.

S

Arty, when was your last lovebuster? [angry outburst, demand, disrespectful judgement]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong>
He doesn't think he needs to do anything other than be at home, the rest is my job to make it good for him. He has so much resentment about how badly I treated him pre A that he thinks I owe him a heap.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Arty, is he manufacturing this grievance or did you really treat him badly? Does he have justified cause to feel resentment of your treatment of him?

ML,
I don't think we had the best M in the world but far from the worst.
With hindsight, I took him and us for granted. I worried about the house the kids and the business over his or my needs. We both felt dissatisfied but I thought I was still grieving my Dads death. He used to say that he is just one rung below the dog but I thought it was a joke. Now he says he was crying out but I didn't even care. He also says our infrequent intemacy was all my fault.

I think he is partly right but the intensity and the intent was never there. I have many times apologized for letting it get to a place that made him look elsewhere and I will except my part in that. I am at a stage that I will take all the blame for everything for some peace and having him at home till the fog lifts.

S
PS -The positives of our M were and are huge (I love & admire him enormously, we share a similar sense of humour, love art, architecture, nature, have shared half our lives together, a business, a home not to mention 3 great kids.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong>He says my actions do not match my words so there is no point to talking. I just try to show him how much he is wanted and once he commits to staying (if he does) we can make a plan. Meanwhile I ride this rollercoaster alone,

S </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Arty, I think this is the key right here. I believe you have to convince him that you have changed, that he truly is more important than the dog in your life. Have you acknowledged to him that you understand you made him feel unwanted? You say that you have changed but he says he doesn't believe it. Are you focusing only on his affair rather than showing him how good your marriage can be?

Because I think that is the key in your case right now, you must convince him that his needs can be met in your marriage. And I don't hear that you are successfully doing that. If you want him back you have to attract him back.

Have you considered counseling with Harley? He is so much more effective than most other counselers and can put you on the right track pretty quickly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When ever we discuss issues about M we LB and blame each other. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, I think if you back off for now and concentrate only on meeting his needs that he will stop being so defensive and you will be able to discuss the his affair.

But for now, that is not going to happen because he is still so resentful about being ignored in your marriage. Help him get over his resentment first and show him that you can meet and will meet his needs. That, hopefully, will attract him back into the marriage so that he will want to work on it.

He also has to be able to trust that you won't become angry and lovebust him.

<small>[ September 26, 2004, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Melodylane,
I agree with you and am succeeding not to LB. I do not start any discussions about anything deep or long term. I have not shown him my sad or angry side now for 3 days. You may laugh but that is good for me. I have acknowledged that he felt unwanted and apolgized for making him feel that way.
I did for some time focus on the A (especially each time C was resumed) but have not brought it up for a while. I am not sure whether I am showing him how good our M can be because I still feel so wounded but I am happier and more relaxed than I have been in a long time. I am trying to offer him the opportunity to build a better M with me.
I will try to convince him that his needs can be met in our marriage, I think I could be doing better at that.

I will try organising a session with SH as soon as the kids are back at school.
Meanwhile I will keep my temper at bay will not LB and try and meet as many of his need as I can.
ML, thanks so much for your support.

S

bump- where are you all. Don't forget me
S