Yesterday, I was taking some time to look at things from my WW's perspective. I've said and thought all these things about how indefensible the positions of the WS and OP are. But there it is, a website dedicated to them.

So I went over there and read some of the discussions.

There are people over there known as "wise ones", just like there are here.

But there is no consideration for the BS there, at all really. It's as if the person barely exists. Like they are merely an annoyance. A distraction for the "MM", an obstacle, an inanimate object. Never a human being who is being hurt.

The "wise ones" make big points, eloquently and with confidence.

And when these people talk about breaking NC, they refer to sexual encounters in such a cavalier way - "we were bad" they say, or "things got pretty hot for a while there".

And at the same time there is so much "I'm hurting so much", and "we love you and support you" going around...

After reading for a while I developed an extremely uneasy feeling. Everything there wears the costume of wisdom and goodness. But what lies beneath is truly nasty. Odd to be in the presence of evil, isn't it?

GC

I know GC. It's disgusting, isn't it. They banter about their immorality like it's something to be proud of.

Stay away from it, dude. You are too good for it, and it will only make you physically ill. They will never listen to "us" anyway. They are too busy letting evil rule their lives and whisper how much fun it is to listen than to or acknowledge truth of the pain they cause - to themselves and to everyone who loves them. The evil lies to them and they lap it up like manna from heaven.

GC,
Sorry you found that hole. Try to stay away until you are in a "better" place.

I am guilty...I lurk there from time to time as well, but it's a sick affirmation for me. I love the Endings board. Everytime someone new joins that board, my little heart leaps up and down.

Obviously you weren't "lucky" enough to find the MB bashing that runs rampant over there. Of COURSE they hate MB...it defeats them.

Sorry again.... that's why the mere MENTION of that site on this board causes uproars.

GC, I've read there as well. Tried to register on the board, but was never approved. Unlike many people here, I've been the OW and I have something of an understanding of where they're coming from.

It's not at all to excuse the pain that their actions cause that I say this:

They are human, imperfect, amazed to be able to get away with things that they were taught are "wrong," and looking for support.

There's nothing wrong with that.

The harm is still there -- and I ardently wish that there were more support for them in ending their affairs.

But heavens, we're talking about people who are genuinely in love. It's awful for them, and some of what an OP goes through is not what I would wish on my closest enemy. (Oh wait, he IS the OM..... *sigh*)

In any case, I know it's awful to read TOW board when you're hurting and just want to see them as wrong bad evil horrible people.

That they are not, but are still doing things that cause terrible pain without recognizing it -- well, that causes lots of people around here to label them with all kinds of unpleasant names. I understand that -- and I don't think it helps much.

GC,

Don't go over there. It's a very painful place. I went there once and read just a little bit, but I have not gone back. It just hurts too much.

I do think though that a lot of those OP's are probably in just as much pain and confused as heck. They will good when the MM/MW is with them, but when they are not, they feel pain and confusion. This is how I see it. Most of the time, the A ends and the OP is most often in a world of hurt as well.

Their life is not a fairy tale either.

I remember when my best girlfriend cheated on her husband and she confessed in me. She truly thought that she has something special with her MM. She told me that nobody will ever understand the bond between them. Well, the bond broke (if there ever was one - I think he just wanted to get laid...) and her life will never ever be the same. I KNOW that she regrets everything, but she will never admit. Our friendship has and will never ever be the same. She's lost a good husband, friends, a home... everthing because she believes in this con-artist. I feel sorry for her in a way, but I also know that two families were destroyed because of the selfishness of two people. Everyone gets hurt in this process, everyone.

Some learn from it, other's don't...

I think a TOW board is not a bad idea, but it shouldn't be about encouraging affairs, but rather about growing healthy relationships and helping other's to get out of destructive lives and fostering a healing process of the OW/OM so that they, too, can lead happy and healthy lives.

Kati

""In any case, I know it's awful to read TOW board when you're hurting and just want to see them as wrong bad evil horrible people.

That they are not, but are still doing things that cause terrible pain without recognizing it --"

I disagree... often OP does recognize the terrible pain caused by their choices ... pain suffered by others is not enough to change their behavior. Often they do not alter their course until their own pain causes them to do so.

The pain suffered by the betrayed spouse is obvious enough, just not a priority to the OP.

Pep

<small>[ September 23, 2004, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Basic rule of thumb... don't leave people in your wake. If your search for happiness is hurting somebody, it is not going to lead you to happiness. Put the happiness of others before your own, and you will find what you need.

Pretty simple.

I understand they are in love, that they are confused and hurting and everything else. But they too often lack adequate concern for others. Their self-centeredness is the source of their pain.

GC

I understand that they USE the word love..
and change it's basic definition to suit their needs...and rationalize their actions...

they change the definitions of lots of words...
for definitions don't really exist in the vortex of an affair..

they are not adulterers..they are alternative relationship engagers... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
that's always a good one...

ARK

Now that sums it up!

Exactly. BTW, I'm not sure if many of the affairee's are really in love or if it is just lust. I think many of them confuse this. When you first get together with someone, you often feel a lot of lust for this person. You know the butterflies in the stomach and tingling sensation all over your body. But this feeling generally subsides with time, but it can turn into a deeper feeling. A feeling of caring very deeply for this person, wanting him/her to succeed in life, sharing your innermost secrets/fears and dreams and generally just sharing life together. This is intimacy. Many affairees never reach this point, because when the lust wears off, so does the "loving feeling"...

I also think that many OP inflict their own pain because of confusion and their search for happiness even if it comes at the expense of other people. My girlfriend is a prime example of this. What she thought was a "sure thing" turned out to be the biggest looser and con-artist that a woman can encounter. However, it is often very difficult for these people to admit that they made a mistake because they fear of looking like a fool to other's who told them what a mistake they are making.

Kati

Love is a loosely used word by anyone in the midst of an A (WS or OP).

Instead the reality of it is that 'love' is a deep seated emotionally charged word and the long lasting effects include care, loyalty, kindness, goodness, faith, self-control, mildness, peace, long-suffering, trust and respect. I am sure others can add to the qualities needed to show true love.

The A and it's participants can not produce any of these qualities on a long term basis. Even the best of A's falter. There is no truth and trust, loyalty has already been broken.

So the BS can hold their head high and know that while each in the M may have contributed to the demise of the individual M, the BS can contribute to the demise of the A by exercising the above qualities and promote these individual qualities when dealing with a WS instead of using the word 'love'.

I had to do this with my WS. I learned early on not to say ILY too much. Instead I would say that 'we' needed to have trust, care, respect and loyalty. I stuck hard to these 4 words since the A didn't hold a candle to me in these areas.

It took time, in time I was able to expand to other qualities on the list and eventually Ws turned to xws and now an H. Exercising patience was difficult for me. I needed to see results fast since I 'felt', I could not survive the A effects on a long term basis.

That is where I underestimated my ability to survive. With the help of many here @ MB and the rest of my personal support group, I learned to weather whatever the A threw in my face.

The TOW board are filled with persons who have convinced themselves it is ok to take what is not theirs. Stealing is an art form and in some cases a profession, not a crime. The blatantness of their posts show that as long as the OW and OMs are willing to continue down such a path, their personal recovery will always be in jeporady. There is no marital recovery in anyway shape or form. Even if they marry the OP. The plague of the A will forever haunt their lives and that is the guilt they can never transfer to the no matter how hard they try.

The qualities that make up true love, escape them. In that fact and much others, I personally gain satisfaction.

Yes, I know they are still part of the human race, but that does not absolve their deeds of misconduct. Not all in the human race have human's best interest at heart. TOW and it's active A pushing participants have their own A selfish interests at heart.

To the many of OPs from TOW that read this board who find this piece of reality truth offensive, there is no apology from me. It is your choice to live in denial but it certainly doesn't mean the rest of humanity has to have your opinion. Nope, just like the rest of us, what the WS and OP does has consquences which the WS and OP must bare, not transferrring to others (BS, family, friends, etc.).

It is quite painful to read such babble trash as seen on the TOW board. Some choose to believe or justify that type of illogic. For those, we patiently wait until they learn how to work their own way out of the fog of the A. Some never come out and others do.

To those who do come out, I wish them well on their recovery. Their insight can help many but certainly was not worth the price of the A. While that thought and associated consquences will follow them for the rest of their lives (forgive but can't forget syndrome), repentance (by WS or OP) and forgiveness (from all involved in the A and the associated BS support groups) can be shown and received.

Reading the TOW board is hard. Very hard. Participating in any recovery (personal or marital) is also a challenge. Personally, I rather post here than on a TOW board. There are some BS' who can do both. I just wouldn't recommend it for those in intense pain or too new to this process.

JMHO,
L.

I knew this would ruffle a few feathers.

BUT...I wanted to chime in about their LOVE as well.

Love.... in this case, fantasy, lust, infatuation, etc.

Love.... how much love can you feel if you wake up in the middle of the night, because you've had a really awful day and can't sleep..and you look for comfort in the arms of LOVE...OH...that's right...that person is home in bed with their spouse.

Yes...that's a love I want to know.

sorry sorry sorry sorry....I couldn't help myself.

EEEUUUUUUUUWWWWWWWW!!!!!

I just went over there!!

The sexy names like Aphrodite and littleblackdress already tells me what breed of "ladies" frequent the site.

Read one that said ..."and I really trust my MM and our R"

Made me ILL!

k

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">""In any case, I know it's awful to read TOW board when you're hurting and just want to see them as wrong bad evil horrible people.

That they are not, but are still doing things that cause terrible pain without recognizing it --"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Ignorance of the Law is no excuse."

The rest are guilty of premeditated self-serving self-centeredness and dedicated to the proposition that Evil triumphs over Good. As long as they get what THEY want, it doesn't matter who gets hurt. Therefore, THEY can't be evil...right?

Besides, didn't you all know that the "grass" was always greener in someone else's pasture?

Feel sorry for them? Not likely...you reap what you sow as the saying goes.

Hope they'll wake up some day and actually feel remorse for the evil they perpetrated?...always....just don't hold your breath if they haven't accepted Christ as their Lord, instead of their own wants.

They are like the terrorists beheading innocent people....for their own twisted reasons and for their own twisted desire for being in control..."they CAN'T be wrong", right?

Evil does exist...and it often walks around pretending to be a sheep.

Oh ya, who cares anyway? Society deems it okay to put "your needs" ahead of everything else, right?

Either that or perhaps they are all aspiring to Hollywood careers.

....or maybe we ought to just legalize polygamy....share and share alike.

Don't defend evil...call it what it is.

Never been to the TOW board, never will.

A quote I once heard by an Amish man sticks with me and helps me -

"Don't seek to understand evil, turn your head away from it - for in the understanding you risk becomming. Seek instead to understand that which you would become."

I used to spend countless hours after reading a horrible story in the paper trying to understand why someone would hurt another. This quote helps me to focus instead on that which is good, so it (good) will grow.

Oh yes, TOW board. Well, I found it helpful after the inital shock of the affair wore off. I realized that for the most part what the OW believed about the affair came from what her MM told her. A one sided look. I also learned that many didn't even want to think about the BS-like a non entity. Again, the MM tells her things and she believes him because he wouldn't lie to her. They tend to focus a great deal of blame on the wife, just as in some cases we focus it on the OW. It takes a while to figure out that the WS is responsible for a majority of the pain for both and if they knew he was married, then they have to take blame too-but most don't-it was that awful MM's wife who caused it. Over a perid of time the majority figure it out. Very, Very few MM leave, and if they do, there is usually an OW#2 that they dump the first one for. I found it useful only in seeing that most really do have some emotional instability-some may have just become unstable after starting an affair. It usually ends badly for them. Many don't realize they are being used as a marriage bandaid.

I agree with you NewJersey, as I was once an OW who didn't know the MM was married for a very long time. He did divorce his wife when I found out, but I was definately still a bandaid for his problems (conflict avoidance among others, I think) I in no way meant to imply that the people on the TOW are evil, just that infidelity is evil. And for me I need to understand the goodness of the people who try to make their marriages work even when faced with such incredible pain. I am here because it helps me to become the person I want to become. I also want to be the kind of person who can help someone who is caught up in an affair recognize it for what it is and learn to embrace goodness instead. And that is also why I am here.

I also visited TOW. I was trying to fathom what was going on my WW's head, as she wasn't very forthcoming to me.

Many of those folks exhibit what I could only describe as sociopathic behaviors. They are driven by immediate gratification, and they don't care who they leave in their wake.

Other people simply don't exist as human beings. They are merely objects around them. No feelings, no respect. Their H's have outlived their usefulness. Time to toss them on the garbage heap. Once someone has outlived their usefulness, they don't deserve compassion.

They sound like those cruel little things on "Mean Girls", except all grown up.

Sadly, I did find insight into my WW's thought process there.

TOW?? What is that?

thenakedpage,

TOW is an acronym for The Other Woman.

GC,

I have read their website several times but I will never post there.Some people there have really supported MB but I have a feeling they were members of our site,at least at some point.The others,well,they are a very sorry excuse for humanity.

As soon as they feel attacked in any way,the fangs come out in full force.They don't want to feel pressured into feeling that what they are doing is wrong but rather they want to be accepted for their choices and who better to surround yourself with than those who are doing the same.It's disgusting.They all know what the right and appropriate choices are to be made but they selfishly/painfully choose otherwise.

O