OK so two things happened today, one that gave me lots of hope and one that's scaring me to death but should give me hope:

1. My W has been threatening to leave town and go live with her OM across the country, probably in a few months.
Today she found out she might be getting a perm position at her company (she's a contractor now), which would keep her here, of course. That gives me hope that I'll have more time to prove to her that we can work it out, rather than only a few months.

2. She found some emails last night that I had written to my OW months ago - emails that show what a disgusting "player" I was being trying to get these women to worship me. It sent her over the edge, of course. One email hinted that one of my OW had been more than she suspected, more than I had told her.
Back up...my A's have only come to light by her digging for information and getting it from 3rd parties and then me admitting it and filling in some blanks. I've never sat down and told the entire story from the start.
Now, she is telling me the only way that we'll ever reconcile is if I do that, tell her the 100% truth about everything.

All the experts on all the message boards and books on infidelity and my own therapist say the same thing - "you've got to get it all out on the table before you can heal" - but the idea is so scary to me because I've always felt that the more she knew, the more she would run away from me.

I fear that if I give her all the gory details, she'll get so upset that she'll leave me for good. Even though...she already knows most of it, and I think alot ofher hesitation about reconciling is coming from not knowing.

Anyone have similar experience, and how did it go? Help!!

Vnus, Give her what she wants, leave nothing out.
I did for my wife and when she asked the next day I repeated it again, it does hurt me to tell her and I usually look at the ground and pretend I'm practicing how to tell her and she's not really there. She usually cries alot and then anger flares! I continue to look at the ground and take my medicine with a heavy heart. When it's over we usually hug and cry together. As bad and uncomfortable as these conversations are we have never left each other without hugging goodbye. Your wife deserves the truth and every detail. Good luck...

Disclose EVERRYTHING [If that is what she truly wants] because OM or no OM she does deserve to know the whole truth. She has a right to decide whether or not she wants to continue being married to you.

If she uses these revelations to further justify and continue her own A with the OM, then it is her loss because when her A is over you may no longer want to take her back. If that comes to pass, then she will rue the day that she decided to cheat on you.

Vnus Mars:

TMCM is Right:
IF you ARE going to "come clean", then do YOURSELF (& your M) a huge favor and Get it ALL out the First time around.

Just check out the current Finally Learning thread if you have any doubts.

Editing what you "think" your Spouse should KNOW or can handle just never works out.

Unfortunately, All it does is Destroy ANY chance that she can Trust you at any point or on any level.

This is your CHANCE at a new and Better M.
Please don't blow it!

But of course it is your choice:
Here's hoping you make the "right" choice!

Wishing you Success!

Some very small progress to report...


catch up on my original post:
she found email threads between me and two of my OW from back in March, and freaked out at the salacious content.
well, what i left out earlier: she emailed both of them and called them whores, and they emailed ME today asking what was going on. i haven't spoken to one in a few months, and the other in a few weeks. i cut them off completely so i could start rebuilding.


So...
my W sent me a message via IM this evening:
"did your girlies write you today?"

normally, i would have lied and denied they wrote at all, because the mere act of them writing and me responding would have been considered a further betrayal. i haven't yet embraced the idea that total honesty is key to rebuilding.

anyway...
i took the advice of those of you above, and i said "yes, they did and told me you wrote them nasty emails, i replied and told them about the emails from March that made you do that."

in a word, i was totally honest about this event.

and it seemed to work...
we had a halfway decent conversation from that point on, as decent as we've been having at least, that waffled back and forth between spiteful name-calling (her of me, not vice versa) and actual hope that we may reconcile someday.

Should this feel like progress?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Vnus, your only hope is to tell her the entire truth and to continue telling her the truth. That is the START of trust building.

But she has to know the entire truth in order to decide if she wants to stay with you. You have no right to try and keep her in a marriage based on a lie; she is not a pet. She has a right to know to whom she is married.

Yes...I'm much more accepting of the idea of telling her the truth now that I've given it some thought.

I guess my bigger concern is:
When is it appropriate?

She is still in such a state of anger and rage right now - our contacts are mostly about how badly I've hurt her and how she now sees me as a monster and she doesn't think she could ever take me back because she's afraid it will happen again, etc.

I fear that giving her all the details now will push her further into her rage rather than be a positive step towards reconciling, that it will be the final death strike to any hope we have.

Should I wait until she's calmed down and more committed to working things out, or do it now while the wounds are fresh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I fear that if I give her all the gory details, she'll get so upset that she'll leave me for good.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am going to rewrite your above statement and insert the unspoken fear you left out

~~~~~~~~~~

I fear that if I give her all the gory details, she'll see what a bum I really am , get so upset that she'll leave me for good.

Your worst fear is yourself. You fear you are not worthy of your wife's love. You fear being emotionally naked in front of your wife. I bet you have hidden from anyone really knowing who you are for your entire life....

WHAT do these OW give you?.... They give you a false identity.... you've never given any of them the gift of your true self....

PLEASE.... give that gift to your wife...

Release your fear.... and stand in front of her with all your flaws visable....

My guess is.... she will love you anyway. You fear she will not. Why? Because YOU do not love yourself.

Trust your wife to love you when you are real.

Pep

You need to answer your wife's questions truthfully.

But more importantly, you need to write to these women and tell them you love your wife and are working on your marriage, and want no contact with them for any reason.

You can't let your fear of losing her drive your actions, for even in the most optimal of conditions there is no guarantee that you will not lose her anyway. Look at it this way, her anger is a sign that she still feels love for you, otherwise she would have been gone for good.

Why not consider conveying to her the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"There are NO EXCUSES for my betrayal of your love and trust for me. You have every right in being angry with me for I am also angry at myself for having done what I did to the woman I had made vows to love and protect for the rest of my life. I don't begrudge you in any way shape or form, that you sought comfort in the arms of another man after what I did to you. If you truly beleive that he is worthy of your love, then I wish you and him happiness and the best this life has to offer, why? because I do truly love you"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What's the point in telling her this, three things:

1. You acknowledge your wrongdoing.
2. You show her how much you love her by letting go of her.
3. You help her conquer her anger and bitterness towards you which is poisoning her at this moment.

Is it risky? Oh yes, but so is driving on the freeway but you don't let your fear of dying in an automobile accident stop you from driving in it, do you? Make peace and accept the reality that in this world you cannot control everything or everybody.

But if she still has any love for you left, she will not be able to avoid being moved by your words.

<small>[ September 25, 2004, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I fear that if I give her all the gory details, she'll see what a bum I really am , get so upset that she'll leave me for good.

------------
Ya know, that seems to hit the nail right on the head.
She already thinks I'm a loser and a monster for what I've done, displaying the details only feels like it will be a further indication of that.

I guess I've been seeing that as a BAD thing, that she will say "see I'm justified running to my OM because you never really deserved me anyway."

So...the ACT of being honest should be such a huge surprise to her that the details may not matter in the long run?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
[QB] You can't let your fear of losing her drive your actions, for even in the most optimal of conditions there is no guarantee that you will not lose her anyway. Look at it this way, her anger is a sign that she still feels love for you, otherwise she would have been gone for good.
--------------
She said something via IM at 4:00 this morning (ugh)...

she said "while I love you and when I see you I long for you...I think those are temporary and someday I'll look back and say 'what was I thinking! 8 years wasted on a monster!'"

Hopefully she's just deluding herself.


1. You acknowledge your wrongdoing.
2. You show her how much you love her by letting go of her.
3. You help her conquer her anger and bitterness towards you which is poisoning her at this moment.

Is it risky? Oh yes, but so is driving on the freeway but you don't let your fear of dying in an automobile accident stop you from driving in it, do you? Make peace and accept the reality that in this world you cannot control everything or everybody.
-------------
I HAVE said things of that nature, my therapist advised that too - to say "I want you back but if you don't want that I will support you 100% in what you decide to do."

I feel like it has backfired on me because ever since I said that, the anger and rage has been more prevalent and the love less prevalent.

But...she has said things that sounded hopeful that are more honest-sounding (such as - "I'm waging a battle in my mind and heart, don't listen to me if I say I don't love you, I think my heart will win.")

Alright...I know I need to do it and soon...
I need to feel like "I have to do this anyway and not worry about her reaction."

I also need to take comfort in the fact that her threats to move away to her OM in a few months are seeming less likely due to her job, etc...so that gives me more time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like it has backfired on me because ever since I said that, the anger and rage has been more prevalent and the love less prevalent.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No it has not because part of loving a person is also sharing with that person the depth of pain and anger he/she feels for being betrayed by the person who they loved the most.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But...she has said things that sounded hopeful that are more honest-sounding (such as - "I'm waging a battle in my mind and heart, don't listen to me if I say I don't love you, I think my heart will win."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The opposite of love is not hatred but indifference. Is your W being indifferent? NO.

You have to keep in mind that if you truly love her and want to have a marriage that will be a happy and healthy one for the two of you, then you MUST accept that it is going to be a 'One Day At A Time' process that cannot be rushed by you or her.

she will say "see I'm justified running to my OM because you never really deserved me anyway."

Do YOU think this is true? Do YOU think that you don't deserve her?

See, what I think is going on (in part) is that you take your self doubts and attribute them to your wife's thinking. The bad things you fear she thinks about you are actually your worst fears about yourself. You are afraid she may be right to leave you....change that... Be the man you can be proud of.

So...the ACT of being honest should be such a huge surprise to her that the details may not matter in the long run?

The "act of being honest" is not exactly what I mean ... it is the character traits of an honest and brave man that will draw your wife to you.... or not.

You don't become honest merely to please your wife!!! You become honest because it is the good and right thing to do!!! You become honest and forthright because that is the MAN you decide you want to be for the rest of your life !! Even if your wife leaves you, you still must live with yourself.

~Who are you if you are not an honest man?~

~Can you respect yourself if you are dishonest?~

Pep

Want to say something to your wife that will peak her interest?

Ask her to do this for you...

Tell her,

"I am on a quest to change myself. I am going to become THE MAN that I can admire and respect. Please give me a list of 5 things you see about me that I need to change."

Then thank her for any response she gives you.

Pep

If the anger and bitterness do not subside in time, then you may want to consider conveying to her the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"You are right, I am a monster and the source of your pain, so I will now do the most honorable thing I can do and that is to let go of you so you can find happiness elsewhere and forget that you ever knew me. Goodbye."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And then go dark on her. If I was a betting man I would bet the farm that she would freak and do everything in her power to try to get in touch with you. Why do I say this? Because if she truly was done with you, then she would have stopped talking to you some time ago, but that hasn't been the case, has it? But the point in conveying to her this message is that only she can conquer he anger and bitterness, and if she gets into the habit of continually feeding those two demons then she will become an ugly person that nobody is going to want to be around with. But it is going to take guts to convey this message to her, are you up to the task?

Hi Vnus-
I see you replyed to my thread.
You have quite a story. You & W
both had A? I read in your words
you are trying to heal. You are
getting some great advice here. I
am FWW. I learned from this site
to be open with my H. I wanted to
hide my A forever. I couldnt move
forward in my marriage-I have a
conscious-it kept at me. I couldnt
hide from myself or my deceit. My
DDay was May 6&7. It has been a few
short months-seems longer, but we
are putting the pieces of our emotions
back together. I was married so young-
at 17, 26 years ago & I had never been
on my own- just me. I thought I found
me in someone else-but was terribly
mistaken-I found me when I quit my job,
and returned to school. Now I am fulfilled
for me- and my H 100% supports me & tries
to understand where my head was at the
time of my A. I was weak in spirit. I
now am stronger.
Keep posting to me-I want to help you-pal

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
[QB] I fear that if I give her all the gory details, she'll see what a bum I really [b]am [/b] , get so upset that she'll leave me for good.

------------
Ya know, that seems to hit the nail right on the head.
She already thinks I am a loser and a monster for what I've done, displaying the details only feels like it will be a further indication of that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only way to change the present tenses of these verbs is to start rebuilding your M; the only way to start rebuilding your M (and in the very least, rebuilding *you*) is by being truthful.

Best wishes--you've been given some great insight here, in a very difficult situation you made for yourself. (Notice the tense? It's past. For you to be successful, you need to be truthful *NOW*. It's what your W asked and deserves. And, you, for that matter!

Hey,

I have a question. VnusMars is trying to save his M, which is obvious. And both he and his W are experiencing all the typical pain, anger and confusion associated with infidelity(s). I feel bad for both of them. Truly I do. No one should ever have to go through this.

However, their current M is the product of an A on his previous spouse and her LI BF. VM Story. So here we are on MB trying to help save what we always quote to WS’s as a no-chance relationship? Seems kind of hypocritical. Well, maybe that is too strong of a word.

I hate to see them in such agony and I hope he takes all the good advice to heart. But everything going on in their M is predicted over and over in posts to WS’s. Are we out to confound our own predictions about M’s based on A’s?

I think their A instigated M is doomed. Just like we tell all WS’s. My advice to VnusMars is to work on himself, period. Let her go, and become an upstanding man before he gets involved with anyone again. Maybe even go apologize to his first wife and his current wife’s XBF as part of his journey of discovery. That is also part of truthfulness.

Ok, I’m ready for the board of education (aka 2x4). But sometimes I don’t think I understand things…

T

UPDATE:

I was TM'ing my wife all Friday night as I played with my band, and then afterwards too. This was a way to show her I wasn't with another woman at the show, a big thing of hers about my A's.

Saturday went over and had lunch, got some of our furniture for the place I'm moving into, had nice talks all day.
Saturday night went over after my band's show and slept in the bed with her, we got up this morning and drove 3 hours away to shop for more furniture for me.

On the way home, I did what everyone's been saying to do - I told her everything.
I told her I had to be honest with her so she could stop hearing details of my A's from others and hear them from me.
So...I did it.

And it seems to have "backfired" from what I was hoping would happen -
She got enraged again, was kicking the dashboard, screaming at me, etc.
Started saying all the things she's said in a rage before, like
"you don't deserve me"
"you'd do it to me again if I took you back"
"my OM is so much better for me than you"
"I wasted 8 years of my life on you"
"I want a divorce ASAP, and you're paying"
"It's so nice to have sex with someone (her OM) and know he hasn't had sex with all these other women" (ouch)
"If this relationship with my OM goes the way I hope it does he'll know not to do this since he sees the pain I'm going through"

etc.etc.etc. I've heard it all before.

But this time...I said...
"You are free. I am setting you free to do what you think you need to do. I don't expect you to believe that I can change and be a better man and never do this again, not right now while everything is still so painful. I am committed to doing just that, changing and maturing, whether or not you are around to reap the rewards. Maybe someday you will see that in order to take me back you will have to BELIEVE that I AM changed, and you just might see that. But you might not, and I have sinned against you so badly that if you don't I can't blame you I can only blame myself."

Yadda yadda.

So...she yelled and screamed and said hurtful things and I left...
And just now she TM'd me an apology for getting mad "but those stories hurt."

Progress?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />