I've posted before on this topic, but things haven't progressed that much so I thought I might ask again in case someone has any new insight. My case, in brief, again, is that I am the FWW, we've been together 7 years with no kids.My A was a one-night stand while away for work, followed by NC since March. I told my H on 15/6, and initially he was devastated, made me tell him all details, didn't speak to me for a week, very angry and sad, etc.

I've made a big effort to work on myself - IC, lots of introspection, books, MB etc. I've also made a big effort to fulfil his ENs and to reassure him of how much I love him, apologise repeatedly, answer all his questions, not LB, have patience, patience, patience. I've also encouraged him to come to MC with me, introduced him to things like POJA and so on. I feel such remorse about not being able to see things clearly back then.

Anyway. Things seemed to be going OK, slowly improving, and in some ways they are - he told me last week that he loved me, the first time since Dday, and that he forgave me.
BUT - he has convinced himself that my sex with OM was actually completely OK. This means that he thinks that he should also be able to have sex with other women and that it "should" mean nothing to me.

We have talked about it a lot and I always stress that while I will try anything to improve our R, a sexually open R is not an option for me. Nothing has happened between him and another woman (although he has many female friends and is planning a weekend trip with one). Maybe its all bluff and nothing will happen- yet I walk around with a terrible fear in my stomach for the future of my R. He thinks he is fine, completely over my A, that our R is just fine, no need for MC etc. He thinks I am the depressed one dwelling in the past, and that talking about it is the problem. He says he is a very shallow person who just wants to have fun and not deal with problems. This is not the man I have known all these years.

I feel he has been deeply affected by this and so has kind of closed off those feelings. He has a history of a lot of insecurity due to a traumatic childhood and earlier GF. Its his choice if he doesn't want to face his feelings... but I just don't know for how long I can go on with this fear. When I tell him that his wish for an open relationship feels to me like getting even or revenge ,etc, he dismisses this and tries to convince me that I would have no reason to be hurt!

I am trying a kind of planA patience thing, but its hurting...
Any thoughts?

Can you get him to post on this board? All of us BS could really relate to some of his feelings. Hopefully, we could help him to realize what a big mistake he is trying to make. It does sound like revenge to me but in the end he will not feel better and you will have been betrayed. Tit for tat in M does not work. But I am preaching to the choir here. If you could get him to post here it might be highly beneficial. Tell him we like to have FWW and WW bashing sessions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It does happen on occasion. Good Luck and take care.

C.

hi smur

how r u today?

yes this is revenge, I sort of toyed with it myself bit like well you hurt me & so I will hurt you. of course I didn't tell myself that it was more well if you want to experiemnet a bit lets do it, kinda dumb but there you are.

I guess he wont admit it has hurt him so much that he thinks he NEEDS to make you hurt too so you can feel like he does.

Generally will end up hurting himself more is my guess. I have read of it here I think and in that case the BS did do it, didn't feel like he thought he would.

Hope he can pay attention to some couselling or advice smur.

Hi Smur,

Is your H actually giving you a choice (POJA) on this matter? Have you told him you would NOT want him to have sex with another woman? He cannot blackmail you into agreeing with this. It will, in fact, destroy your M and your respect for him.

If he gives you the "hey, you did it yourself, so you should be ok with me doing it too"... then tell him a reformed alcoholic would NOT be ok with seeing his best friend becoming an alcoholic in denial. An A is no remedy for any problem in life. Sex with other people is no remedy either. If you both agree on a swinging marriage, that's a different story, but if one partner doesn't agree, the M will be destroyed because this sort of behavior is just too painful.

So your H should wonder if he wants this M or not. He'll do a lot of damage to his self respect and to the respect you have for him by acting out these ideas. What's this talking about a weekend trip with a GF, what's that all about?? He doesn't need getting involved with other woman. He'll need time to heal and from what you're telling us he'll need time to heal stuff that has nothing to do with you, too.

Ask your H that if you had made the stupid decision of jumping of a cliff, suffered severe injuries, and was left with life long scars to remind you what you did, would he be jealous and want to do the same? Well that was what your ONS was, a stupid decision and let him know that even if he decided NOT to go ahead and have sex with another woman, that you still rue the day you made that stupid decision to have your ONS because it has cost you plenty as far as your self respect as a woman, a wife and the knowledge that you can never undo what you did.

thanks everyone,

I very much appreciate your opinions. I know you're right that he can't blackmail me into agreeing with this. Even though there are times when I think my guilt makes me agree to things, which I know is not good, I am never going to agree to an open M.
Also I completely agree with you, TMCM, that I have paid a high price for my stupid decision, although I guess I have learnt a huge amount as well. If he wants to go through that process - well I wouldn't recommend it.

Hi,

Here is an update. Things superficially seem to be good with us, in the sense that we can spend fun time together, laugh, affection, sex etc are OK. I believe he does love me and I also think that he is becoming more open to me. He has noticed that I have changed since Dday and that I have worked on myself in some ways - I am more patient and open to discussing things, I don't just react to problems in the same way that I used to, and this has had a positive affect on our relationship. We talked about how stupid and ironic it was that something like this had to happen for me to make a change like that.

But the issue about him wanting to have "what I had" hasn't gone away. Yesterday we spent a few hours talking about boundaries and he repeated that he is interested in sleeping with another woman/women (theoretically - he has no one in particular in mind). I talked in detail about what my boundaries were. I am aware that saying "if you do this, I will leave you" etc is in affect a threat, and aside from the fact that I don't want to be a hypocrite, I also don't want to threaten. Also I think you can't know exactly what you would feel beforehand. But I did make it clear that its more than likely that I would be extremely hurt, and also quite likely that I would not want to see him for a while, even if it was "just a ONS, no commitment, etc, etc". The conversation also brought back some painful memories of the past in which he did things that were really borderline on my boundaries. He has never had a sexual or really romantic R with another woman in the past 7 years, but I think he doesn't really take responsibility for his effect on others. He has been in a few situations where female friends of his were attracted or developed crushes because they got the wrong idea from him about what he wanted from them. He takes no reponsibility for this, and at the time he often denied to me that they could possibly feel that way.

While I am trying my utmost to get my R back on track, and therefore be open to talking about everything, these discussions really take a toll on me afterwards. Last night I couldn't sleep. I think the hardest thing for me is that he doesn't see the seriousness of the situation that we are in. He thinks that we have recovered from the A, and that, his recent feelings about wanting another woman are not directly related....

I am confused about what to do. On the one hand I am happy that things are better between us than they were and that we are talking so honestly and openly. On the other - I really don't know how we are going to resolve this. I have talked to him about POJA and he agrees its a good idea. But how to POJA about sex with other women?? Its really not going to be Ok with me, and its impossible for me to imagine a situation where I could agree to it. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to be moving towards agreeing not to. I thought before that it was maybe just a matter of time and when our R healed, he would think differently. Now I'm not sure anymore.

Just met up with him again and we talked. He has agreed to read up more about POJA and also that we should talk about our issues more. He also said that in the future he might feel differently.

I guess my questions to this board really come from the fact that it seems his response is so different from the "typical" response of the BSs on these boards. I am confused as to how to respond when he says that he is over the A, is fine, has forgiven me, and it is only me who is depressed. Also that it is not in any way unusual that he should want to sleep with other women. He really tries hard to convince me that my boundaries are all in my head and it 'shouldn't' hurt me!!

I almost feel like I have dropped into a parallel universe. Its all like 1984 doublespeak. Is this the BS fog?? I am so bewildered. If anyone has thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

Replying to my own thread... but just wanted to add in response to TMCM that yes, I did say this to him. His answer was that yes, I reacted like that to my A, and he can see how deeply it has affected me, but that he is different to me and would not react like that. For him it would be exciting and fun.

I find it odd but encouraging that FWS think affair are very bad things once their own affairs are over.
Shows how deluding the fog is.

I have considered a revenge affair very briefly, but I think my FWW would be devastated by it. Why would I do that to the woman I love?

The conversation also brought back some painful memories of the past in which he did things that were really borderline on my boundaries. He has never had a sexual or really romantic R with another woman in the past 7 years, but I think he doesn't really take responsibility for his effect on others. He has been in a few situations where female friends of his were attracted or developed crushes because they got the wrong idea from him about what he wanted from them. He takes no reponsibility for this, and at the time he often denied to me that they could possibly feel that way.


Smur, this reads as a red flag to me. Could this have contributed in any way to your ONS? This is not acceptable behaviour for a married man. This is disrespectful to you and your marriage, in my opinion.

The fact that your husband is causing so much fear and worry to you regarding the possibility of him sleeping with another woman, and his upcoming trip with other women and his continued friendships with other women, gives me cause for concern.

As Bob has said regarding the devestation to his wife if he slept with another knowing how badly it hurt him, why would your husband want to do this to you?

Bob, I guess you could compare FWS thinking As are very bad things to the way reformed alcoholics feel about drinking or former smokers feel about smoking....maybe we're even more zealous than the rest of society, because we've experienced the damage first hand. But it does take time to really see your behaviour for what it was - you have to be well out of the fog.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Could this have contributed in any way to your ONS? This is not acceptable behaviour for a married man. This is disrespectful to you and your marriage, in my opinion.

The fact that your husband is causing so much fear and worry to you regarding the possibility of him sleeping with another woman, and his upcoming trip with other women and his continued friendships with other women, gives me cause for concern.

As Bob has said regarding the devestation to his wife if he slept with another knowing how badly it hurt him, why would your husband want to do this to you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weaver, why he would want this is a very good question and one that I have asked him, without getting a clear answer, except, "I don't want to hurt you - but why should this hurt you?".
At first I felt that he didn't love me post-A, and so could justify wanting this despite knowing it would hurt me. But now that things are much better between us, and he says he does love me, I am confused and sad that he could still want this. I think he is also denying the extent to which he was hurt by my ONS. He says now that he is not hurt by thoughts of my ONS, that hurt was only his initial reaction.

About your first Q of whether his past actions towards OW may have partly led to my ONS, I think that in the past we both made too many independent decisions without considering each other's feelings. His behaviour towards OW was one of several things. I also had a feeling of having given up quite a lot for him - ie not considered my own needs enough and spent too much time looking after his, since he has had several periods of depression.

I see my ONS as a real wake-up call that we both need to do things differently in the future for the sake of our M - ie be more open and direct about needs, and use POJA. I am ready and willing to do that and he says he is too, but I am yet to really see it.

My WW suggested I have an affair. I dont see it as she feels guilty. I see it as she doesnt care for me and feel insulted (as much as I would like to get even!!)

I agree with Bob, Why make things worse when you really love them.

cj, I agree that those kind of "foggy" sentiments really are insulting.

I think that there are 2 main issues here:

1) His wanting to "experiment" sexually is directly related to his feelings caused by my ONS. He never talked about this in 7 years of M. Everyone here on this board agrees on this point. However, H doesn't really agree, as he thinks he is over my ONS. He has even gone so far as to say my ONS was "not a bad thing".
But how can I point this out without using DJs? I cannot tell him that his feelings are wrong. He has totally convinced himself. He will not talk to IC or MC or to friends about this issue.

2) My guilt over my ONS, as well as my desire to repair my R, is making me much more open to this than I would have been in the past. But its very difficult for a FWS to distinguish between necessary unconditional giving/changing for the sake of repairing a R and psychological "punishment". Where is the line?

Honesty here - my FWW and I were virgins when we met. Neither of us had other sexual partners until this A. I have a task running within me now that says I need now to experience sex with another person to restore equllibrium in our relationship.

Almost as if I have a RIGHT to know that now.

Its as if my FWW has eaten from the tree of good and evil, and I want a bite, like Adam did, I know.

I pray I won't act upon this instinct, but I would be lying if I denied it existed.

Only pain and guilt can come from it, I do not intend so to do.

I think this desire will only dissipate if/when FWW truly regrets her extramarital sex. Right now I believe she still views it as a good, enjoyable thing, but regrets the pain it caused. That kills me. SLAUGHTERS me.

If she gets to a point where she is as hurt/revolted by her infidelity as I am, we can heal and I can move on in this space.

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

2) My guilt over my ONS, as well as my desire to repair my R, is making me much more open to this than I would have been in the past. But its very difficult for a FWS to distinguish between necessary unconditional giving/changing for the sake of repairing a R and psychological "punishment". Where is the line?

This is where I see the danger also. Your boundaries risk becomming murky. I think the answer to this would be to trust your gut instincts and to put boundaries in place that follow your instincts and what you know is right.

You guys are in a tough place and I don't even have a clue as to what the solution is aside from screaming out to your BS "NO, NO, NO - stop this now".

Would your both be willing to get coaching from someone here or Penny over at saveyourmarriage ?

He has even gone so far as to say my ONS was "not a bad thing".
But how can I point this out without using DJs? I cannot tell him that his feelings are wrong. He has totally convinced himself. He will not talk to IC or MC or to friends about this issue.
.

here are the things and concept you speak..
speak your peace softly...then he must decide...

Dear husband it is the EXACT result of my ONS that I have come see what "BAD THING"...nothing in my life has opened my eyes and shown me how clear it is that Gods GIFT of human sexuality is not something to be taken lightly or toyed with...

That it never ever means for us to take it (our human sexuality) and to use it....in a way that uses ourselves...uses others...and brings belitteling to the whole package of the gift it is....

people readily like to say that the act of sex...is the "bad" part...or the "sin" part...but it's not....
they just say that...cause sometimes even they themselves lose sight of true meaning of being able to share ourselves sexually withother..

Too much stands to be damaged when you use the "feel good" part of sex to fullfill or gain something...

we damage ouselves..when we use sex this way..
we certainly damage the partner we choose deciding for them that they too should join in the belittling of the bigger picture for the feel good touchy feely side...

with God's gift of sexuality..comes the responsiblity to be able to fully nuture that partner...to be with them in more ways than than just the physical...
to be for them as they should be for you...and never will I dear husband again take that responsiblity lightly...the price and pain too high...
and nor will I condone that in you...if that is what you choose then there is your choice...

but I know from experience it is a painful choice that brings chaos to many...

My guilt over my ONS, as well as my desire to repair my R, is making me much more open to this than I would have been in the past.

that's fog babble..not WS fog babble..but you stand at the point of becoming the BS in this chaos...but that does and has no effect on YOUR core value system...that is NOW up and running strong..on what makes a good marriage..

the path your husband is seeking will never ever create the type of marriage you desire..and you must not power the struggle the insane with him...but set your own limit and boundary...

But its very difficult for a FWS to distinguish between necessary unconditional giving/changing for the sake of repairing a R and psychological "punishment".

unconditiona giving/changing must never against core values....otherwise it is tainted..

the bigger picture you want a marriage that is not rife with infidelity...
you want a marriage in which you two share grow and nurture Gods gift of intimacy not something that is belittled with others...and supposed to have meaning between you two....too much of a dichotomy to exist in the real world...

you set your sights on what YOU want.
you try your best..
you can't force or control him..
all must choose...
all you can do is choose wisely...

one partner
in a marriage is the right choice...

ARK

Tell your husband to look at how destructive your OWN ONS has been for you....how guilty, depressed, fallen etc that you have felt. Tell him now, to multiply that by 2 and add betrayal to it...and imagine what you're likely to feel. You may think you deserve to feel that badly...he may think so too. He may think he deserves the same opportunity...and that sounds logical...but in the world of marriage, it just causes further destruction.

It's possible that your husband had feelings and temptations before you ever had an affair. After your ONS, he felt very betrayed....but then...looked at this as an opportunity to play out his own fantasies. Two wrongs are never going to make this right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> It's possible that your husband had feelings and temptations before you ever had an affair. After your ONS, he felt very betrayed....but then...looked at this as an opportunity to play out his own fantasies. Two wrongs are never going to make this right. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with everyone that this is a bad idea. But I think everyone has the motivation wrong. You had a ONS, you are still married and my bet is your H wants to remain married. But, in his mind by remaining married, to a certain extent, you got away with it. You got to have sex outside the marriage with no long term repercussions. (I know there are severe repercussions, but in his state right now, thats how he see's it) I don't think the motivation is revenge. He feels like you have something over him, that you got to have an experience he didn't, and to move ahead on an equal footing, he should have that experience also.
Eric

eric..

it doesn't matter what his motivation is..

it is irrelevent..
and is an issue or line that should not be power-struggled or given in to...

He feels like you have something over him, that you got to have an experience he didn't, and to move ahead on an equal footing, he should have that experience also.

none of that thinking meets the definition of marriage....
of a true partnership where the other protects the other...
it is damaging tit-for-tat...


his rational can be as vast as the grand canyon...and he is entitled to it...
but smur sets her own boundaries...as we all should....
and that is her decision as well...

he can think what ever he chooses...it does not make what he is asking right....
within a covenant of marriage...

ARK