I have been thinking alot about the reality of H and OW moving in together - they are each other's destiny, you know. But what will real life be like for them?

6 month carefree sneaky A, followed by 6 months of drama and theatrics as they try to leave each other, return, leave etc. 4 years of carrying a torch for each other. 2 weeks of rekindled A, H ready to run off with her - can't let her get away twice! 3 months of more sneaking around, more high drama as my H continues "wooing" her away from her H, and she can't make up her mind. Now they both face the pain of leaving their spouses, and in our case, our 2 wonderful kids.

So this is the background, the baggage they bring into their new relationship. It also includes facing the "scandal" part of it, disappointing a large extended family on H's side that really likes me, shocking our co-workers (we work at the same place and are a well liked couple, 7 years)
We have a tight social circle as well, and this will come as a surprise to everyone, as we appeared to be a tight, happy couple.

I guess no one can predict the success rate of a relationship that starts out like this one. Who knows - maybe this "true love" they have been carrying around for each other for several years will carry them through and they will live happily ever after, after the initial shock and disapointment to friends and loved ones wears away.

Of course, I am hoping that such a volitle relationship will burn itself out quickly, once the secrecy, urgency and high drama becomes day to day life. But maybe they will sustain that drama in their new relationship too? Making each other jealous, threatening to leave etc etc. My H is pretty laid back and likes to be taken care of, pampered, not micromanaged etc. OW is high maintenence, pouts alot, very jealous and highly emotional. Two takers, no givers. Then again, when you enter into your relationship with this much baggage, maybe you work twice as hard to prove to the world that this isn't a fluke, that you didn't hurt all those people for anything but true love...

Of course, I am hoping to see them fizzle out ASAP, not so much because I think H returning to us is an option, but to prove to him once and for all that this relationship is really NOT a healthy one for him. Now that his mind seems to be made up to go, I guess its time for him to do his thing with OW and get it over with.

Everhopeful -

Their chances are probably slim to none for the reasons you listed. In addition, there's the whole 'baby issue' thing going on. Just from reading descriptions of your H's personality, etc. I can't imagine that he'll reverse his vasectomy to have babies with the OW. He sounds too selfish for that.

Your H just lied to the OW proving that he's really not going to have a different R with her. It's still all about him, his wants, his needs, his desires.

I'm sure their A would fizzle out much faster if you would expose it to the OW's H. In fact, go ahead and mention your trip to NY and the fact that you and your H enjoyed SF.

Take care.

sss

The "baggage issue" is HUGE... and guess what?

BOTH parties enter their "new bliss" subconsciously thinking the following...

"I have sacrificed soooo much for this OP .... they better be worth it!" and also thinking .... "OP did not sacrifice nearly as much as I did to be together. S/he better appreciate everything I have given up to be with him/her.."

There is tremendous pressure to compare how much has been lost with how much has been gained.

Having the step-kid issue is a HUGE strain on their bliss... the parent who has given up living with his/her children full-time, has usually got more guilt, and also more expectations that "YOU better make me happy! Look at what I have sacrificed!"

These unions are never fair and balanced. There is always an inequity ... even if it is only in perception.


This is why the odds are so bad. The baggage/expectation/guilt is pretty heavy.

Anyway ... it's out of your hands. (which is a good thing when you consider the hugeness of what is being expected from the union)

Pep

Funny thing is, when I was in my 20's, I left my first H for my second H. Left town, tried to start over with a clean slate. No kids to make things messy, but the guilt was always there, and we felt negative vibes from people who didn't even know us, just heard through the grapevine.

So here's what happened. 1 month into the new relationship with my "true love", the sex started to wane. And wane big - within a few more months it was every 2 weeks. We got married about a year later, and thinking back on it, it was just to prove to the world that we didn't do this selfish thing that hurt my ex so much, on a lark - it really is true love - see? we are getting married.
And we hung in there a couple more years, I think I was shocked, more than anything else, that this great love was getting a little boring, no fizzle etc. After 3 years, I was ready to move on, bored with my marriage, but embarrassed about what happened.

So how does this compare to H & OW? Well, for one thing, I had only been married a couple years to H #1, no kids etc. H#2 was a nice, easygoing, laid back guy, and so am I. We never fought once during our marriage, just kinda got bored with it.

Now - current H and I have been together 16 years total with a 10 year old and a 14 year old. Never any high drama in our relationship, except in the aftermath of the A. The funny thing is, H came from a terrible broken, disfunctional childhood. He has always said that me and the kids gave him the solid family that he never had himself, growing up.

So now he chooses to run off with OW, the Drama Queen. Guess his laid back, stable wife is too boring. And the bottom for my H, of course, is the age issue (I am 15 years older), the excuse he can always fall back on (even though I look 10 years younger than my age, and we have never had any age related issues)

At this point, I am obsessed H & OW, what they talk about, how they treat each other, how romantic they are, what there physical relationship is like. H told the OW he would consider reversing his vasectomy to strengthen his case against her H, who could still get her pregnant. He is banking on the idea that she probably can't get pregnant anyway, but then again, he is even talking about having a second family if it happens. I beleive this is all fog talk based on his current infatuation with OW, he would do or say almost anything to get her now.
Again, in his mind, she represented his second chance in life with a partner more suited to him, and he gave up that chance 4 years ago when he chose to stay with me and the kids. The chance comes around again, and after carrying this torch and idealizing what they had for so long, H is ready to jump ship immediately, this is his last chance to change his life with his ideal match - he can't let her go again.

Its so strange to see him wrapped around her little finger, ready to jump through any hoop, ready to promise her anything, trying to be faithful to her by not having sex with me. He wants to be the faithful, honest partner with her that he couldn't be with me. And he hasn't even moved out yet! I just wish he could see whats real and whats not, and what really counts in life.

"6 month carefree sneaky A, followed by 6 months of drama and theatrics as they try to leave each other, return, leave etc. 4 years of carrying a torch for each other. 2 weeks of rekindled A, H ready to run off with her - can't let her get away twice! 3 months of more sneaking around, more high drama as my H continues "wooing" her away from her H, and she can't make up her mind"

Sounds like this has been going on for awhile...why do you want this man...Sounds like he doesnt respect you at all...I think you might need some self-esteem, and you certainly don't need him to provide it. Goodness

H told the OW he would consider reversing his vasectomy to strengthen his case against her H, who could still get her pregnant.

This is a BIG "maybe" in their relationship.


Its so strange to see him wrapped around her little finger, ready to jump through any hoop, ready to promise her anything, trying to be faithful to her by not having sex with me.

Jumping through hoops does not make a man very happy ... especially when the woman holds up yet another hoop and the task to please her seems endless.

I just wish he could see whats real and whats not, and what really counts in life.

What is "real" is not important to him at the moment... What is "dream and desire come true" is what he is chasing after.... the left-overs from an unhappy childhood.

He needs to crash into his dream in order to wake up... Plan A until the very last minute... to leave a good taste of you in his mouth ... then release him to his crime.

Pep

Sounds like you've been through a lot. i think he needs a wakeup call and for reality to give him a big slap in the face. Most of the time, they just want to have their cake and eat it too so when you stand your ground, his whole world will be likely to fall out from under him...it will be a shock i'm sure.

Whatever you decide, best of luck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Less than 5% at 2 years, more like less than 2% though. Starts with lies and ends because they can't trust each other and the fact that it is based on fantasy. Everyone knows someone who has a marriage to an affair partner, but those are the stats. If they do make it , trust is always an issue. Another interesting fact is that 5 years after the affair, those who stay married to their mate are just as happy or happier than those who left. (If they found love again, it is not with the affair partner in general).

Thanks for these replies.

Putting myself in H's mind - he married me at age 23, and although he had several serious girl friends, I always felt that he resented me for robbing him of the rest of his carefree batchelor days (I was pregnant).

But after 2 years of waiting patiently, making sure he knew I didn't want him to do this unless it was HIS decision, he wanted to marry me.
Remember, I am 15 years older and this has always bothered him, regardless of how well we got/get along. 4 years later, H wants another baby, and I figure we are over the hump and he has settled in. Baby #2 arrives, we seem content. 8 years into the marriage, OW comes along and decides H and her are meant to be together, plays on the age thing as to why she is a better match. I year A, H decides to stay with me, although I know he regrets having to leave OW behind. 2 years later, she gets married, is out of the picture. 4 years later, both couples unknowingly join new fitness center, H runs into OW, friendly conversation leads to "lets have a beer sometime, no big deal, we are both happily married". Two weeks later, H is ready to run off with OW. I know he never stopped romanticizing their former realtionship, thinks that she is his last chance to end up with someone more suitable age wise, more fun, more athletic, more in common.

2 marriages and our 2 kids stand in their way. She doesn't want it to look like he is leaving me for her, so they plan "respectable" time after their respective divorces before they move in together. In H's mind, this all makes perfect sense. He is convinced that regardless of what happens with OW, this was his wake up call that he does not want to stay married to me, mostly because of my age.

It is ironic that H's first excuse was that he wanted to be non-monagamous, date around, and now OW is already insisting on his being faithful to her, and he has not even left yet! Sounds like the next ball and chain may be tighter than the old one, if you ask me. But H is so convinced that she is "it" for him, he is willing to believe that he can change completely for her, and vice versa (she has not been faithful to her H.)

So once again, my history with H above in a nut shell. Seems as though H is very unrealistically romantic in an immature way about OW being perfect for him, his only chance at "true love".
Yes, fog, big time.

Maybe I should throw in the towel and admit that H has never loved me the way he should have due to the fact that he feels like he did not choose me - fate chose me, and he has been trying to "do the right thing" for me and the kids all this time, dispite his nagging feeling that he could do better. And of course, the age thing.
Funny thing though, I really believe that no one can make him happier than me - I am a giver, he is a taker, and I know him very, very well, warts and all. Of course I know that maybe I deserve a man more into me, but H is the father of my kids, loves them and vice versa, and so, I am willing to put up with some of his selfish behavior during what has basically been a good, fun relationship. OW is a taker, and a taker/taker team ususally doesn't mesh.

Sigh. Anyway, with so much at stake, I am afraid that my H and OW will look at what they did to be together, who they hurt, how they look in the eyes of the world, and will rush into marriage to make things look more legitimate. And possibly stay together for a while, just to make it look like it wasn't a waste for nothing.
I don't think they have much of a chance at real, stable, contented happiness, but then again, maybe they will thrive on a volitle relationship.

So it all sounds and really is, crazy, but in my H's mind, it all makes perfect sense and he feels he has to go for this one shot at OW, his dream match. I do have to wonder if he would feel the same about not wanting to stay with me and the kids, if she was out of the picture, regardless of my age. Do I think we can stil be happy? I know we can still be happy, but he may have to do his stint with OW to prove it to himself.

Plan A til the end, but looking carefully at my legal options, with protecting the kids my number one priorty.

Age: 55 Husband’s age: 40
Married 14 years
2 Children: girl-10, boy-14
2 year A ended 2001
2 week relapse July 2004, OW now also married.
A has escalated, H says he wants divorce
A) to be with OW
B) to find a younger woman if it doesn’t work out with her

Hi Everhopeful -- I think your own personal experience of an affair that became a marriage is quite typical. A couple of months ago Penny Tupy asked me to look at some statistics that she had and to come up with a figure -- on average -- of what the likelihood of success of an affair is. "Sucess" meaning that it becomes a long-term marriage; the statistical data that are available don't say whether the marriages are happy or not.

The statistics show, again this is ON AVERAGE, that 1% to 3% of all affairs become long term marriages. The full article about it, and about a ton of other data that I found is here. Some affairs are certainly like yours and do become marriages (about 10%), but of those, only 10 to 15 percent are long-term marriages. It takes time for these marriages to fall apart, and as much as five years wouldn't surprise me all that much. My theory about why that happens pretty well matches what's already been posted here, as well as what you said about your own marriage to an affair partner.

Everhopeful,
I'm going to blatantly threadjack here, and for that, I apologize.

But before I do, I want to wish you the best in recovering your M. Any advice I could impart would pale compared to that which the consiberably more knowledgeable already have offered. Good Luck!

More to my point. Something you said in one of earlier posts has really stuck with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Funny thing is, when I was in my 20's, I left my first H for my second H. Left town, tried to start over with a clean slate. No kids to make things messy, but the guilt was always there, and we felt negative vibes from people who didn't even know us, just heard through the grapevine.

So here's what happened. 1 month into the new relationship with my "true love", the sex started to wane. And wane big - within a few more months it was every 2 weeks. We got married about a year later, and thinking back on it, it was just to prove to the world that we didn't do this selfish thing that hurt my ex so much, on a lark - it really is true love - see? we are getting married.
And we hung in there a couple more years, I think I was shocked, more than anything else, that this great love was getting a little boring, no fizzle etc. After 3 years, I was ready to move on, bored with my marriage, but embarrassed about what happened. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds a little like someone I know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here's my question. And if you don't respond, I'll understand, you certainly have enough on your plate......

Was there anything in the world your 1st H could have done that would have saved your M?

Thanks in advance, and again, best wishes.

Ethan

thefurnitureman -

Beleive me, the similiarities are not lost on me, between my situation in my 20's and currently with my H. (what goes around, comes around?) I have compared the two situations time and time again. The big difference being, we have two great kids, and a much longer marriage. Personalities are totally different too. H#1- All American good guy, college sweetheart H#2
Sensitive artist but deadbeat.

Could H #1 have done anything to save the marriage? I don't think so. I married too young, married my "best friend" rather than a man I was truly romantically in love with. By the end of the honeymoon I knew I was in trouble, did not feel any romantic passion for this guy. But he was a great guy, someone my father would have approved of (he died the year before). But no spark, no chemistry. We separated after 1 year, reunited after 1 year apart, I met and fell in love with H #2 within the year. I would say, no glue to hold this first marriage together.

Of course, H #2 did not turn out to be the true love I thought he would be. H # 3 - we dated 2 years before I got pregnant. Had no desire ever to be unfaithful. With the kids in the picture, too much at stake. The other big difference is that I was only 22 when first married, and honestly, rather immature when I decided I wanted a more exciting partner at 23. H is 40 - should be a bit more emotionally mature, I would hope.

Well, on with the show. H called me twice last night and was very affectionate and sweet. I kept it light and Planned A on the phone. Who knows what is transpiring between him and OW while he is away? I do think that her recent demands on him may be putting a bit of a damper on his image of her as his perfect mate. Guess it all depends if he will let himself back down at all, and let himself admit that maybe he WOULD be happiest with me. But he is far from there yet. One foot firmly out the door. I will stay positive, but plan for the worst.

Duplicate post

<small>[ September 28, 2004, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Everhopeful ]</small>

Everhopeful, I'm struck by the smilarities between our husbands. Of course, I've only been married for a year and have no kids, but everything you've written sounds remarkably like what I'm going through. My husband (well, STBX) has carried a torch for his OW for 7 years, through the bulk of our 4 years together and now she's popped up in his backyard, so to speak, and he wants a divorce to be able to see where this potential relationship with OW will take him. I also find myself obsessing about the two of them... Will they be truly happy? Will the relationship just fizzle and go bland like most relationships do after a while and will that make him regret what he gave up? Or will they live happily ever after and never think twice about the marriage that didn't quite have a chance because of his fixation with this woman?

Like I said, we don't have any kids or anything that would complicate future relationships with other people, so my H thinks he's getting off scott free with no harm done. Unfortunately, I feel the harm done. I'm the one who is getting a divorce I don't want, because H couldn't be arsed to do it himself. I've done a lot of soul searching over the last several days since I found out about the real reason he wanted out of our marriage and I just can't see myself waiting around for him to "snap out of it". He has plainly said he doesn't want this marriage to continue, that he believes he's doing the right thing for himself and that he wants to see where the possibilities take him (ie. if OW is his real soulmate and I was just a fake soulmate or something).

So, while I have nothing to really add that can help you, I just wanted to say that I know where you're coming from.

I can give you my input on how well these things work since I have been through it all.

The relationship I have with my W started as an A. I was the OM. She was unhappily married with kids. So far it has gone on 8 1/2 years but is failing rapidly.

When we met it was that love at first sight thing we were so happy together and inseperable. We started out as friends and a few months later things started getting physical, though we never actually had sex. After about 10 months of this she finally kicked her H out and we then started a full blown relationship. We were now having sex. I was spending the night at her house. Hanging out with her and the kids. Supporting her emotionally through a nasty D. Her parents hated me and were pissed off at her. Her friends were pretty cool since none of them like her H. BUt through all the turmoil we were as happy as could be. About a 1 1/2 after she seperated from her H. I moved in with her and the kids. Things were still great. 2 years later we get M. Everything was still wonderful. Her parents were starting to come around because they saw how much I loved their daughter and her kids. After about a 1 1/2 of M, things started going downhill.

My W was so wrapped up in starting a business that I started an EA with one of her friends that lasted about 6 months. We were never able to recover from that. That in turn led to my current situation in which my W kicked me out of the house, is having an A and is starting the whole thing over again with the OM. She hasn't filed for D yet so I haven't given up hope. But things are not looking good.

There has been plenty of guilt in the 8 + years. There have been comments from my W about what she gave up to be with me. There has been hard feelings with her family. It has been a rough ride. Through most of it we have been in love and crazy about each other, but starting a relationship under these circumstnaces just isn't a good foundation.

So I would say the odds of them ultimately making it are pretty slim but it could take a while to prove that out. Like I said our A is still going after 8 1/2 years.

Everhopeful,

Don't know if this will help, but from what I have learned from my relationship with a man who was married when I met him is:

Our relationship is not so different than the one he had with his wife, some differences but those turn out not to matter so much in the scheme of things. What HAS mattered is that he is still the exact same person he was when he was married to his ex wife. He did not change, he did not have to, as I was there to help him stay the same. He could say everything was wrong with the relationship he had with his wife, never even really had to look at himself and the part he played in it because I was there to take him away and make himself look & feel all shiny and new.

A person cannot go from one marriage into the next without undergoing an incredible amount of change before the new relationship will be any different than the last because THEY HAVE NOT CHANGED.

You are not so different than his current affair woman or he would not have picked her because HE HAS NOT CHANGED.

I learned this the hard way, so did my ex fiance and so will your WH & his OW.

But you, YOU have undergone immense change because you had no choice, so your future is much, much brighter.

And I know that this is the undeniable truth that we all learn sooner or later. Hopefully for them it will be sooner, before they are fighting inward diseases, etc.

(does that sound harsh? well it is what I have learned and seen, unfortunately)

Thanks for this thoughtful reply. OW is very different from me - 20 years younger, athletic, unstable, high energy, hig maitenance, self centered (all by my H's own admission.) She is also Asian, and plays the exotic card to the hilt.

But other than the Asian part, my H is very much like OW. I guess this was the soul mate attraction from the start. And after 16 years with the exact opposite type of woman, guess this seems like a refreshing, stimulating change.

But maybe you are right and he hasn't changed. He sure seems to think that OW will keep him in line and vice versa.

Wish this wasn't so damn painful for me!

Everhopeful,

Well, she is 20 years younger, and all that. What will she see in your WH when the smoke has all cleared?

More importantly what will he see in himself?

You have so much pain now, but soon you will have happiness again, and what will he have? A worse kind of pain, the kind of pain that comes from deep inside you, the kind you can't get away from.

You are going to be okay, you are once again going to walk on the sunny side of the street. You just wait and see, the pain you have now will not all have been for naught.

Don't think about them anymore, just think about yourself and how you picture your life and yourself a year from now. Visualize that and keep it close. Gimble told me that and I will never forget it, it made all the difference to me and I do try to remember to picture myself how I want to be, and who I want in my life. You do it too, okay?

OK - now that H and OW are now living together, I have given up on any hope of reconciliation, flicker of hope remained, I guess.

I had a long talk with a friend who knows both of them. She said that OW has always been in love with my H, and only married her H because at the time she couldn't have my H. She said she probably never loved her H, and when she got another chance with my H, went for it.

And then I have to face the fact that H was ready to run off with her after only 2 weeks of seeing her again, and that he told me point blank that he was pursuing her and trying to convince her to leave her H.

I also think she deliberately forced the issue by confessing to her H right after we got back from our weekend in NY, after getting my H to confess that we made love several times. I think she made sure that H would never come back to our house and sleep with me again.

Anyway, instead of hoping and praying for a last minute miracle, I am now obsessed with hoping they crash and burn as soon as possible, whether there is any hope for reconcilation or not. I also think that because they are both causing so much pain and turmoil to be together, that paying this high a price may keep them together even if they are not so happy - to save face etc.

I also think that in their eyes, this was not a hasty decision, because they have wanted each other for 5 years now, even though they both claimed to be happily married in the interim period.

I guess whether or not they make it is not supposed to be my focus now, taking care of myself and the kids etc. But the thought of them living together in their little love nest only a few blocks away (yes now, me and the kids, her soon to be ex-H, and the two of them live in the same subdivision.

H has totally jumped ship emotionally too, and its so scary to see how devoted he now is to OW.
I don't know, it all seems so utterly immature and crazy, but then again, maybe they really do deserve each other and will make it work. Just wish my kids didn't have to be hurt so badly, and caught up in whatever H eventually wants in terms of integrating them into his life with OW.

Makes me sick to my stomach.

<small>[ October 04, 2004, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Everhopeful ]</small>

Your are going to be fine Everhopeful. You don't see it now because of the pain. The pain will fade. You just stay strong, for your kids and for yourself.

Don't let this beat you. Let it make you into one special, kick @ss lady.

Turn your pain around and work it. Work it to your advantage. This will be a catalyst for you, and you will overcome.

Hang in there {{{{everhopeful)))) and hugs to you.

You don't see what a loss you are, but we do, please believe.