I posted this on the Divorced/Getting Divorced site and was told this may be a better forum for my issue:

Discovered my wife was having 'what she claimed' was an emotional affair with an old high school friend from Classmates.com due to our failing marriage. She claimed that she never slept with him but has lied on many occasions about other pieces of this situation (email addresses, cell phones, letters etc...).

I am in counseling with her now but will be making the final decision at the end of the year so that we do not spoil the holidays for the kids. She desperately wants to stay with me but I want the divorce. The key to the whole thing is that I do not know the full story as to what really happened and due to her lying behavior in the past I cannot go on without ever fully knowing the truth.

I was contemplating surveilance euipment but due to costs and the fact that I just do not want to try anymore I decided against it. Plus I have a gut feel (that has been right with many factors all along) that she may have broken up with him.

I will be making a decision based on trust with a person who cannot be trusted! She claims that she has indeed lied to me in the past but not about this. I am tired of being stepped all over although I do take responsibility for her talking to this guy in the first place due to my lack of emotional support towards her.

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Help!

Hello and i'm sorry you are here too.

Not quite sure what "help" you are looking for as it seems you've pretty much made up your mind....but i will say that i understand where you're coming from feeling like you cannot trust someone who's lied to you repeatedly. It may very well be just an EA, but even that in itself is wrong and indicates problems.

I think counseling is the right step, but in the end, you have to ask yourself the question we all have to ask ourselves..what do YOU want in the long-term? Do you feel you can ever trust her again? Do you believe she's capable of changing?

I don't know your relationship background, but if you've been together a long time and things that she's lied about in the past are miniscule, i'd consider giving her another chance and seeing what becomes of it. All the while, making sure to see any "signs" of a possible ongoing relationship w/this guy (or anyone else). I know cost issues are always at hand, but if you want to save your marriage, some survelliance may give you peace of mind--or confirm your worst fears. Either way, you'll know where everything stands, then it's just up to you to make that final choice.

Best of luck to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BigMark:
<strong>
The key to the whole thing is that I do not know the full story as to what really happened and due to her lying behavior in the past I cannot go on without ever fully knowing the truth.
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Help! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you told her that?

Here are a few more facts on the whole situation. I think getting different opinions offers me a clearer view of the whole situation - afterall this is a very big decision to stay or go!

1. Married for about 14 years, 3 boys (10 - 16), she was divorced years ago and this was my first marriage, I am 40 and she is 44.

2. Over the years she has had major issues with how my family treated her and has rescued many animals which caused major damage to our home and opened several charge cards in my name w/o my knowledge causing great financial issues on my side. She claimed this was not a revenge thing but was due to her emotional well being. Every time she did something bad it was behind my back and she lied faithfully about those instances every time until she was caught.

3. In february I took off for our anniversary and unfortunately discovered a love letter from my wife to a friend of hers from HS. It was sitting on top of her purse (she claimed it was hidden) and as I started to read it she caught me and ripped it out of my hands. Things got really violent.

4. Started marriage counseling for a short period
of time and was told by the counselor that I should see the cell phone bill to verify if she was telling the truth. Wife refused! Wife kept stating that it was purely an emotional affair and that was it.

5. Since the blowup in February I discovered she purchased another cell phone w/o my knowledge and tried to cover it up, has a charge card with the last name of her alleged emotional support boyfriend, finally admitted that she did meet him in person but nothing happened (she always swore that she never met him in person before), has met about 80% of any "Indication your spouse is cheating on you' lists", and leaves the house during the day explaining that she is just shopping or driving around to get out of the house.

5. I am giving it one more chance working with a local therapist who is trying a paradox theory - Since I want the divorce he is asking for us to pretend that we really are divorced and see how it feels to not be with that person.

To be quite honest if it was not for the well being of my 3 boys I would have been divorced by now!

Unfortunately, I have 2 options with the possible outcomes:

Divorce and later realize that she really was telling the truth, Divorce and realize that she continues to lie and it was a good decision on my part.

Stay together and she continues to sleep with other men and lies about it, stay together and spend the rest of my life in a better marriage and all around life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BigMark:
<strong> Here are a few more facts on the whole situation. I think getting different opinions offers me a clearer view of the whole situation - afterall this is a very big decision to stay or go!

1. Married for about 14 years, 3 boys (10 - 16), she was divorced years ago and this was my first marriage, I am 40 and she is 44.

2. Over the years she has had major issues with how my family treated her and has rescued many animals which caused major damage to our home and opened several charge cards in my name w/o my knowledge causing great financial issues on my side. She claimed this was not a revenge thing but was due to her emotional well being. Every time she did something bad it was behind my back and she lied faithfully about those instances every time until she was caught.

3. In february I took off for our anniversary and unfortunately discovered a love letter from my wife to a friend of hers from HS. It was sitting on top of her purse (she claimed it was hidden) and as I started to read it she caught me and ripped it out of my hands. Things got really violent.

4. Started marriage counseling for a short period
of time and was told by the counselor that I should see the cell phone bill to verify if she was telling the truth. Wife refused! Wife kept stating that it was purely an emotional affair and that was it.

5. Since the blowup in February I discovered she purchased another cell phone w/o my knowledge and tried to cover it up, has a charge card with the last name of her alleged emotional support boyfriend, finally admitted that she did meet him in person but nothing happened (she always swore that she never met him in person before), has met about 80% of any "Indication your spouse is cheating on you' lists", and leaves the house during the day explaining that she is just shopping or driving around to get out of the house.

5. I am giving it one more chance working with a local therapist who is trying a paradox theory - Since I want the divorce he is asking for us to pretend that we really are divorced and see how it feels to not be with that person.

To be quite honest if it was not for the well being of my 3 boys I would have been divorced by now!

Unfortunately, I have 2 options with the possible outcomes:

Divorce and later realize that she really was telling the truth, Divorce and realize that she continues to lie and it was a good decision on my part.

Stay together and she continues to sleep with other men and lies about it, stay together and spend the rest of my life in a better marriage and all around life. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a tough situation. I hope one of the more experienced MB'ers jumps in here with some advice.

It almost sounds like your new MC is suggesting plan B. Have you read up on Plan A/Plan B and Dr. Harley's basic concepts? Is there any chance you could get your wife to read them- or to post here?
What does she say when you talk about divorce?

Yes, I am in a really tough situation.

Unfortunately, I cannot even start Plan A because the WS will not be honest about the affair in the first place! This seems like an extremely common situation for everyone on this site (WS lying about what is really going on)but everyone else is fortunate enough (I bet nobody ever thought this is the case) knowing the whole truth.

The WS does not want a divorce and is committed to staying together but I do not truly know why; love, financial support, impact on kids, likes the diversity etc...

Once again, I have not actually found her with this other guy but she does admit she was talking to him. I just wish she would lay all of the cards on the table and allow me to have a baseline to start from. Nobody knows how hard this is especially when kids are involved.

I think you are right that the therapist is suggesting PLan B but to be honest I feel good about knowing that I pretending I am divorced although sadness does overcome me often knowing it is the end...

Why can't you start a Plan A?

Find out what her top EN's and start fulfilling them, cut out ALL LB's. I personally think this is a plan that should continue throughout the M 9and a skill worth learning if it doesn't work out for your next R).

The exposure part may be a little tricky because you have no facts, but if this person has a S or SO then contact them, if for any reason to find out more...

But a Plan B is probably in the near future.

Do NOT do a Plan B without a Plan A (fulfilling those needs, showing her what a GREAT BigMark you can be). Then move on to Plan B. If she doesn't return...hey, then you've tried.

You owe this to yourself and your boys to try a Plan A and Plan B before moving to Plan D...

The only thing I know about this guy is his cell phone number that I discovered with some simple detective work. I have no idea how to get in touch with his W.

My W had this guy call me early on when I discovered what was going on and he left me a phone mail stating that they never met in person and it was only discussions of old times over the phone and internet. He also stated that nothing was going on other than talking about old times - yeah right! Well recently my wife admitted that they allegedly met in person at some restaurant so it is obvious that anything this guy tells me is a straight out lie. My wife is also adament about me not talking to anyone in his family because she thinks I am blowing this thing way out of proportion and it could also destroy his failing marriage. She also claims he is very wealthy...

PLan B is fine but the statement if she does not return then so be it... That is not the issue - she wants to stay whether or not I go into PLan A or B. I am the one who is sick of all the stuff and wants to move on. The only thing holding me back is my boys even though she is making me a walking mat!

Do I live the rest of my life as the patsy or start enjoying life???

Big Mark,

Do you want a contrarian point of view? I don't the A is what you have to worry about. It is all of the other behaviors that indicate some severe problems in your relationship and within your spouse. The lying, the credit cards, the animals, individually may not be much, but collectively they are huge. Then throw in the EA/PA????, and you do have a problem, but it seems to me the real problem is her lying to you about behavior that is NOT appropriate and that covers the range from OM down to the credit cards.

Have you all addressed these issues in your counseling? If not you really need to. You children will NOT be well served if she drives your family into bankruptcy. Your financial health is important to them.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, I think 'Just Learning' hit it on the head! Some background:

Several months before the alleged affair took place I finally was sick and tired of the animals and credit card stuff and told her she had to see a Psych Dr. or I am through. She did see somebody (although I cannot prove it) and said she felt better. Now she throws this in my face saying that I forced her to fix her porblems but I did not look at my own. I agree that I did not support her emotionally over the years and did not stick up for her when my family did not approve of her from the beginning of the marriage. I know that if I were to go forward with her I would have to change my behaviors and I am okay with that. Once again though, I cannot start anywhere until I know where it is I am starting from! Unfortunately, I believe she has the symptoms of a pathological liar and yes I brought this up to our therapist with both of us in the room.

I have always maintained that truth is in the details. She may only be in an EA but until she really opens up, you may never know. My FWW said she didn't view her affair as an affair because there was no sex involved. She was able to justify the meetings as friends getting together and not as actual dating, etc. My FWW lied to me and the kids daily. She lied to cover other lies. Be prepared for continual lying. It will stop eventually.

If you are thinking of leaving her anyway, tell her to level with you regardless of what the facts are and you will then decide if you can handle it or not. Tell her she is busted and now is the time to be truthful. If she continues to lie, it will be over with forever, etc. You cannot recover until the affair stops and the lying quits.

Good Luck

TooSoon

BigMark,

This is my two cents worth. ~blowing out a breath~ You could have written this post about me.

I'm the one who insisted we get another dog, another bird or two or three, turtles, fish. I'm the one who got credit cards without Buster's knowledge. I'm the one who lied about bills, who lied about several things. And, I'm the one who had an online EA with a one time PA meeting.

Since I've been so dishonest time and time again, Buster doesn't trust the fact that I'm NOW telling the truth! It's like that old adage, "a little to late."

Through marriage counseling and individual counseling, I've learned a few things about us and our relationship. I am passive aggressive. That means when Buster ticks me off, I use subterfuge to get back. Some psychologist would probably dredge up something about my childhood to explain why. The thing is, I know now that I am passive aggressive and I am fighting really hard NOT to repeat those tendencies.

Buster has his own issues with self esteem. He has in the past majorly put me down. Sometimes it was justified, and sometimes it was not. This was a form of control on his part. If I didn't feel good about myself, I'd never dream of leaving him.

It was a horrible Catch 22. The more he put me down, the more passive aggressive my behavior.

We were freakin' screwed up.

I think divorce should be the absolute last thing you do. It seems like it will bring peace, but the grass is not always greener.

You stated you are in MC with her now. Perhaps instead of focusing on the fact that she "lied" and "used you as a doormat", take the time to find out what the underlying problem might be. Why is she acting out the way she is?

It always takes two to make a marriage. It also takes two to breakdown a marriage. Take a good look at yourself and ask yourself were there certain things you could have been doing to meet her EN's so she didn't feel compelled to (fill in the blank).

I'm NOT trying to assign blame here. I'm just saying that if you've been going to MC that must mean you want to work at it. If you want to work at it, you need to step back from your emotions, analyse it and figure it out.

Thanks for the insight from Toosoontobecomfortable and Heidi C. This really is a great site to dicusss these issues and I really appreciate all of your feedback.

I have been approaching this situation exactly how Toosoontobecomfortable recommended. I am hoping that by the end of the year my WS spills her guts about everything and I can start with a clean slate. Unfortunately, I fear that she will never do this and protect herself and him over me and her kids so it seems doomed at this point. At this point I will continue MC until the end of the year and hope for the best but to be quite honest I think divorce is imminent. I do plan on reiterating that even if a PA did occur there still is a chance for our marriage to survive if it is truly over and she comes clean about everything.

For the first time in our marriage she has eliminated the animals from the house other than 2 dogs which are fully under control. This shows that she can control it but I have not yet changed my behavior becuase I just cannot get over not knowing the truth!

I think Heidi C has diagnosed her as a Passive Aggressive which makes total sense to me. I think her behavior though is not just due to me and my family. There is definitely something more deeper that she needs to look into.

I guess I need to make a huge decision (swallow my pride) and change completely to support all of her EN's and see if that changes anything. However, you have to understand that if I did that and she changes in response, I still have no idea of what she is doing when I am not around and may continue the lying throughout the rest of our marriage. To be quite honest, I am sick of taking more chances with her and keep dreaming of being single again although I am sure I will not like it when I am in it.