Well, she still loves OM and not me. She says she loves me, but it doesn’t feel like it.

She has been withdrawn for some time. She has been running around with another woman from the neighborhood. (I am certain it is not with OM). This other woman is having marital problems as well and is probably going to end up splitting up with her husband. For reasons other than an affair. Her friend’s husband is really bad to her. You’d think that RAP would see all this and appreciate what SHE has at home. You’d think, but you’d be wrong. You’d think RAP would come to the conclusion that given HER marital problems, maybe paling around with someone else with problems is not the wisest choice.

She barely spends any time with me. I don’t see how we will heal without that.

I have asked her to wear her wedding ring again. She won’t. Makes her feel “claustrophobic.”

I have told her we should restate our wedding vows again. I think it is important for her (and I) to hear the words and understand it is a promise, an oath, to treat each other with respect. That it is a choice and that if effort is put into the marriage the feelings will return. I also think it would be good for the 3DS to see. They know something is broken with mom and dad. I think it would reassure them we are trying to make it. She won’t. She said she can’t say them until she feels them. That “feel” word again.

I am to CHOOSE to love her after what she has done. I get little or no slack when I goof and my feelings get the better of me. I am to wait until she FEELS like loving me again. Doesn’t seem fair. Time for my OWN medicine. No one promised me it would be. Just have to decide how much I can stand.

She wants to move away from the city we are in. I agree. But to what end? Our “plan” was to move close to her family. I don’t have a problem with that, but it would not be my first choice if not for her. Now? I’m not so sure. I need some reassurance that I won’t get her where she wants to be then find myself alone. I mean, why bother? If this was business, it would not be a prudent decision. But it’s not, it’s love. I almost feel bad, at this point, that I still LOVE her. It would be so much easier to just quit.

So what happened? Nothing really big. Many of you are going through worse. It is not what happened that has me ready to toss in the towel, but what is implied.

She went out with her friend last night. I said she could go, work has been really busy this weekend. I put the 3DS down and did some work, but my heart was not in it. I missed her, but I said she could go. Trying not to control her. I get that from her a lot. I have put some boundaries up, more out of self-preservation than anything.

She comes back late. Upset. Asks me to hold her, she just needs me. So I do. She is in a “trigger mood.” You all know the ones. I could tell she was hurting over the OM. I have been there for her during these, faithful and loving. Sometimes I goof. Most times I do pretty good, just listening. Listening to things that hurt me, but what else can I do? I love her.

Tonight was a little different. Her distance has been hard lately. Over the last month, it FEELS like she hasn’t really been there for me at all. She frequently chooses her new neighborhood girlfriend over me. She would say she is giving me all she can, which is probably true. But it doesn’t help me with my feelings. I still feel bottom of the list to her.

So what was the trigger? Not a song, or something like that. Turns out it wasn’t really a trigger, it was a poor choice. Her OM has moved on. Dropped her like what they “had” was meaningless and has moved on to ANOTHER woman with less “baggage.” (And by baggage I mean a husband that knows). That hurts RAP because she still loves him. She saw the OM’s new “project” leaving the neighborhood and decided to follow her to see if this new “project” was going to meet the OM. She had mentioned things like that. For some reason, she needs to KNOW who he is with now that he does not want to be with her. When she has mentioned things like that in the past, I tell her that would be very bad. It would be a love buster to me. It would not do her any good, or serve any purpose. I even told her if she really needed to know, I would go with her. We could do it together. I ask her things like “If you caught them, what would you do?” She can’t answer those questions.

So she followed this new “project” of the OM and she was made. Apparently the OM has warned this new woman what to look out for. So she turned around and headed home. RAP didn’t learn anything. Probably only succeeded in preventing a meeting between her OM and this new “project.” She comes home upset and wants to be held. Why? Because she is upset that the OM will be mad at her for following the new girlfriend. She didn’t want the OM to hate her.

And I reacted badly. I didn’t yell, or curse, or anything. I was just hard. I wasn’t the comfort she needed right then. My mistake.

The sermons at church have been about how to have a successful relationship. Today’s topic? Availability in times of crisis. I was not. I told her things like she shouldn’t have followed her. I told her she should have come home. Her new friend was with her. RAP said the new friend told her it was a bad idea, but RAP didn’t listen to her either.

This went on for about 5 minutes and I walked out of the room. Could feel myself getting angry. I cooled off and came back. Regardless of the circumstances, she needed me to be there for her and I felt bad for getting hard. I don’t have much empathy for people who have trouble living with their mistakes. Need to work on that.

But I came back and apologized. She didn’t accept it. She lit into me for “knifing her heart” by being cold. I said I was sorry and all this was hard on me too. Not good enough. She made up her mind to be angry and lashed out.

I must have left and came back 5 or 6 times and apologized and asked her to cut me some slack for a mistake, once on my knees. She didn’t.

That’s what hurts the most. I don’t feel like I am getting any slack. She seems to be able to make whatever mistake she wants and chucks it up to fog, withdrawal from OM, all our “bad” history. I feel like I have to be perfect, or she is justified in reading me the riot act.

Of course, this is all my side. But I need some encouragement.

She told me last night that I was “just like the other man, I hated her.” That really sets me off. On my WORST day I am twice the man he is.

She told me last night that she “hated every fiber of my being.” That vibe has been coming from her for some time. Even my patience is wearing thin. It’s been 3 months since last contact (physical) with OM. It’s been 6 months since I have been in some form of plan A. Not perfect, but trying my best.

She told me I should go get a concubine. She cursed at me. She threatened me. She does not control her tongue well in a fight.

What is the deal here? I am not perfect, but I am not a bad man either. How much of this cr@p do I take in my own house? I am tired of picking up HIS pieces. He got all the love from RAP and I get to put her together again. This has been like the 10th time now. I am getting tired of it.

Is it so hard to comprehend that if she wants US to work, she needs to sow the seeds in that field? Is that wrong? Do I just wait all this out? How do I KNOW that she loves me? She says she does, but frequently demonstrates hatred.

I offered to send her to her mom’s. She said she would not go. We would have to work something out here. Why? Why should I bankroll her in this town to “figure herself out?” What is to figure? She either is my wife and should act like it, or not. Yes, it may be hard for her sometimes, but it was hard for me to accept and forgive what she has done.

I really need some encouragement. Sadly, I don’t think any of you can give it to me. I need it from her. She says she can’t give it, that she is doing the best she can. I am just to accept that. It is funny to me that last night, I did the best I could as well. Yes I was hard, but I quickly caught myself and came back humble and apologetic. Back to a beating. Things deteriorated from there. My glint of hope that is fading. The question of “is this worth saving” is getting harder and harder to answer.

NCW, sorry things are so rough right now.

I think it's established that you and RAP, when you discuss things, do it at a pretty high temperature. It sounds like there's quite a bit of anger coming out in these conversations.

Anger is useful in situations where you're in danger and need the bravery that it provides. But when you're having a disagreement with your spouse, and actually in most situations, you become weaker when you allow anger to guide your words and actions.

GC

Mark,

I hope this helps but don't know if it will. Seems like the BS here get this alot. I know I have at times, but maybe not to this extent. It's usually at a time when we're not talking and my imagination is running wild.

As part of your plan, have you set any time frames? By that I mean, part of what MB prepares you for is to make yourself better, so that if your M doesn't work out, you'll still be a better person for having gone through this (that doesn't sound right, but I think you know me well enough to know what I was trying to say). How long do you want to give it your all before you throw in the towel and still be able to look back and know that you gave it your all?

Are you and RAP in counseling? Sounds like you need a mediator or someone to help you two communicate better. It's almost as if RAP after so many years of taking whatever it was she was talking from you is now lashing out at you. Even though she probably knows what she did was wrong, she can't help herself.

That you're a smart and spritual dude should help you through this. Pray and ask for help and guidance. My prayers go out for you.

R

I am sorry NCW, but I have to respond. Not to be mean, but I do not feel fairly represented. I know you are hurting. That is obvious. You know I do care that you are hurting, or at least I have tried to let you know that.

NCW wrote

But I came back and apologized. She didn’t accept it. She lit into me for “knifing her heart” by being cold. I said I was sorry and all this was hard on me too. Not good enough. She made up her mind to be angry and lashed out.

I must have left and came back 5 or 6 times and apologized and asked her to cut me some slack for a mistake, once on my knees. She didn’t.

That’s what hurts the most. I don’t feel like I am getting any slack. She seems to be able to make whatever mistake she wants and chucks it up to fog, withdrawal from OM, all our “bad” history. I feel like I have to be perfect, or she is justified in reading me the riot act.

Okay, I don’t want to argue with you on MB, but this is not right Mark. When I came home, I approached you humbly. I came home at 11:00. I looked at you and said I was failing miserably. I was failing you and myself. I was being weak and I was very upset at myself for what I just did. I knew I was stupid, and I was realizing how much I was messing up.

You ask for all this dam* radical honesty. I told you what I did. I did not say I loved him but that I was failing YOU. You lashed out hard.

The 5 or 6 times you came to “apologize” were in extreme anger. When you were on your knees, you were banging your fists viciously on the futon I was laying on. You grabbed me by the arm and said, “Come to bed. I said I was sorry. Give me a fu**ing break.” I did not say the hateful words until you stomped on me. I was still wrong to say them. I also asked you to let me go to sleep and talk later. Your returning was frantic and angry.

I do love you. I do not show it well. You are doing your best. I know this. But my response to your anger will not change, just like your response to my tongue should not change. No one deserves either one.

I also do not use OM as a constant excuse for my behavior. Right now, I feel so dam* defective because of my screwed up feelings towards you and very X OM. But all I feel from you is your judgment. Can’t do it. Won’t. I love you and I don’t want you to hurt. I mean that. I really really do. I don’t have all the answers. You try so hard and I see that. Then you make all these demands and say you don’t see me trying. Even when I do. I don’t know what to say.

I don’t want you to hurt Mark. I am doing all I can to get past this. It is not happening quickly. The daily interactions of being here and OM nearby is really awful. I am so sorry for that.

Take care of yourself. I can’t do it all for you. I can’t even do it for myself half the time. I will try for you. I will not measure up to your standards. I will not. But I will do MY best. I may end up not being good enough. It hasn’t been…validly.

Love you,
Pam

Double post.

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: runawaypot ]</small>

RAP, it's good to hear from you.

NCW, are you keeping score, or just losing patience now and then?

GC

NCW/RAP,
You guys sound so much like me and my W! Oh my goodness, I wish my W would post instead of lurk. She would tell you of the same scenarios between us playing out, and maybe some that were even worse. RAP I do not want to attack you, but lady you must COMMITT TO YOUR MARRIAGE NOW! Stop going to follow around OM like a lost PUPPY. This is ridiculous, you are somones W for GODS SAKE and it's obvious OM has already replaced your position. It's time for you to DETOX, you can do this, it won't be easy, but you CAN do it. You are who you are right now, not who you were yesterday or last week or even last year, you are you RIGHT NOW. It's through adveristy that we become heroes, heroines or cowards.

Okay stop reading RAP, I need to talk to my friend NCW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

NC,
You must not LB, I know its hard but the outburst and Lbs must be controlled. You have every right to be upset, frustrated and to respond in kind, but you cannot. You must lead by example. Why is your W so hostile towards you? Did your exposure end the A? Sounds like you may have majorly contributed to the demise of her sordid A. My W was the same way, vindictive, full of mood swings and complete with the occassional ANACONDA tongue! NCW, you know as well as I do that it's all a process. This is par for the course. You can survive this portion of the obstacle course. First, lets get you out of that house sometimes, lets get you some ways to relieve your stress. Lets get you some form of breather??? You can't stay at this repeatedly without running out of gas. I read that you were in Plan A, now you're in Plan? Are you in a plan now? Personally I'm not totally in a plan, I have made some serious changes and eliminated some of my automatic LB's. You might call my plan a revised Plan R/A/180..I am using a combination of my best attributes while doing things she least expects me to do, while pushing for our recovery in actions not words.

I'm pulling for you. I agree with RH on the time limit reminder. How long do you intend on being in this situation? I have set a time limit of BUT I can't tell you that here. My W lurks here from time to time and I don't think her knowing my limits aid our recovery. The point is, I do have a timeframe in mind for how long I will maintain this stage. You should have a timeframe as well. A timeframe also gives you incentive to continue during those spikes that we encounter. It's okay to take a break and breath. Please find ways to take the pressure off yourself. Let some air out of your sails. There is no time clock ticking, this is a process. You will not be penalized for your pace. RELAX. You W must travel her own journey to arrive where she can have some clarity. You might not still be married to your W when she gets there, the same goes for me, but that doesn't change the truth. Our W's could have a moment of clarity next week, or next month unfortunately we don't get to choose for them. I wanted to also point out that you ARE a good man. Your W is still in the fog and suffering from heavy withdrawal, her words are not her words but the effects of her own inner-turmoil, pain and guilt. Reverse babble might be on the menu here NC. You may be taking your W's words a little too much to heart? Infact, nowadays you shouldn't be taking your W's words to heart at all. NONE! Concubine? NC pre-A would your W ever have told you to seek the services of a prostitute? Don't allow your W's fogbabble to rock you to the core, she doesn't mean it, she's merely lashing from the fog. Concubine? Okay, it's time for you to take a break and regroup NC!

I'm sorry you're going through this crap but there is hope, and detaching sometimes can give you a clearer head.

Edit) I'm on my 2nd day of no nicotine, can someone say 'vertigo"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

So why start an argument.

Yes you came home humble and needed me.

Yes I was hard when I found out what you had done, hard, but not angry.

I left and came back. Humbly. Apologizing for my reaction. I am sorry that I am weak and cannot be perfect every time.

But I ask - where was YOUR compassion and understanding when I returned humbly? It was not there. You lit in to me then. You did tell me you loved him. You did tell me you hated me with every fiber of your being.

Did I get angry later? Yes. It seemed as if you were pushing every button you knew to push.

The problem is this. I don't seem to be allowed to have a bad reaction to this situation. I am not extended grace.

This is hard. Make no mistake and I know it is hard on both of us. So when I went to my corner and came back sorry for a "do-over" when I was just hard, where was the compassion that I have extended to you over and over again?

It's only about being decent to one another.

My biggest mistake: not going after the first time. But I am on a precipice at this point. You have been SO cold and have leaned on me SO much and have not extended to any of my requests.

You did something last night that I have repeatedly warned you NOT to do. And I reacted bad.

I come to the board to figure out what I have done wrong. I don't feel the situation was really misrepresented.

Both GC and RH posted and I have been mulling over their replies. GC on answering and RH on counselling. Both had truths.

I would ask - what advice have YOU taken from this board? Where has your behavior towards ME changed? It essentially hasn't since before BV left.

Know why you still love him? That's where your HEAD is at. If you are going to wait for FEELINGS for me to come back on their own, we are not going to make it. I have BAD FEELINGS towards you because you cheated on me. I focus on serving you - not perfectly - but that is where I put my head. I made that CHOICE, knowing that my heart would follow. And it has.

You spend your time wondering who the OM is with, or what he is doing. Your head is with him. So your heart is too, big surprise.

You say you love me. SHOW me. Is your wedding ring back on? Have you called me and asked talk to you or pray for you because you are going to do something wrong BEFORE you do it?

You have to see the OM at school. Have you trained the children to meet you at your car instead of you having to go up and get them?

I'm sorry. You tell me that you are doing things, that you are getting closer. I can't deny that that is the truth. But if what you are doing is not ministering to me, what good is it doing?

I KNOW what I did last night was wrong. I came back humble and apologetic as soon as I had done it. And I wasn't angry (at first) just hard. But I am at the END of my rope. You REALLY jumped on me two weeks ago. And I took it. You did it again and I got upset. You didn't allow me to be upset then - we fought about the fact that I was angry.

Geez. Sorry I got mad. Didn't realize that because I was betrayed I wasn't allowed to. The way I was raised, you do something wrong, you owe the person a sincere apology and you do what you can to make it right. It's just what you do. I tried to make it right last night, you would have none of it.

That is not love. Love carries with it some understanding.

Mark

Mark, you said:


My biggest mistake: not going after the first time. But I am on a precipice at this point. You have been SO cold and have leaned on me SO much and have not extended to any of my requests.

The last part says it all for me now. I have extended to your requests. It has never been good enough. I have stopped leaning on you until last night. I was wrong. I am sorry. I can’t always feel like a failure. Like I don’t measure up. I have shut down.

I do NOT focus on OM. I really don’t. I have told you that. Last night was just plain stupid. Not a normal decision on my part. Not how I have been acting. That is why I told you and felt bad about it.

I am tired. I really don’t know how to do this anymore. I am sorry.


I don't want to quit, but I don't know how to handle your feelings anymore. We have to get counseling and stop talking about it to each other all the time. It is not working.

I agree with RAP, you two should see a counselor.

But choose carefully.

There are several places to find a series of questions to ask a potential MC in a phone interview. DO IT!

My WW eventually refused to see an MC, but I interviewed several. Most gave good enough answers to the questions, but I just wasn't feeling it from them.

Then one of them called me, and when I answered, she said, "Okay, what's going on?" We talked for about 30 minutes, her asking most of the questions. She answered all my interview questions without having to be asked. I knew she was the right person to see. I'm sorry we never had the chance.

GC

NCW & Rap, [Officials "Time Out"]!

Although this news (differing points of view) is hard for the 2 of you to deal with right now, its NOT all that unexpected.
The good news is that the 2 of you are not all that far apart in reality.
Unfortunately, you ARE on different Time Tables.

For Rap, the withdrawal stage can take up to 6 months [or more] (depending on the individual and the emotional involvement / intensity).
However, NCW as you've been holding the relationship together.....your getting weary of the struggle and are expecting a little to be coming back. NOT unreasonable.
Unfortunately, if she is still in withdrawal, then she is More like a black hole than a shinning star. She still is taking....without much coming back out.

So its natural for you to begin to react in the manner you are. Your tired and frustrated, we understand that.

The one thing you need to focus on IMO NCW is the fact that She IS telling you what she needs right NOW. She's giving you at least Part of the solution on a Silver Platter.
And that is too Move away from EVERYTHING.
This can be your key out of all this. (No, in and of itself its Not a cure all.....but it sure can facilitate and then make the recovery journey easier).

Bottom line is she is TELLING you what she Needs.
To be away from OM, the "triggers", the memories, the environment, her addiction, her pain, her fog.....All of it.

Indeed the benefits come to you BOTH long before any actual physical separation happens.
First, you Both have to begin all the preparations.
YOU KNOW:
Finding a new place.
Either selling or breaking lease on old place.
Finding new employment....or making arrangements with old.
Turning on new utilities.....while turning off old.
OH, my gosh....packing (and before that going through and taking the opportunity to get rid of things you don't need or use).
And on and on and on..................(you get my drift!)

NOW here's what happens to BOTH of you.
You have so much going on that the "junk" begins to take a back seat.
NO, its not gone or forgotten.....but it takes up less of your thinking as it becomes less important in your day to day.

Bottom line is when you have something more pressing to think about.....YOU DO! Just a fact.

(This is something RAP desperately needs right Now! Something else for her to focus and concentrate on).

If she can EVER get her mind off the OM and the A, it will have much less of a hold on her in the future.
It's making that initial mental Break that is the challenge.

Also, as she begins to "obsess" less, she'll then be able to work through her feelings and then slowly See the A in a different light.

In addition, this process lets you 2 begin to work together as a team again.
You'll both be working on a common goal and towards a common purpose.

YOU'LL have to begin (be forced) to rely on one another and even trust each other to get YOUR part of the mission completed.
(Hey, don't discount this type of "bonding" experience).
At this point any goal you can work toward together is a Huge Plus.

There are many other smaller "pluses" that I can't list them all.
But things like reminiscing about "good" memories as you Both decide what should go and what should stay.
The feeling of "cleansing" as either of you decide to get rid of items that may be triggers for you.
The return of hopeful "feelings" of optimism that you HAVE a future together, as you do things like look at houses or schools and decide what your families NEEDS will be Down the road.
IT really is a process that brings you together.

At this point I think a family project like this could do wonders for your relationship.
Just having to take on the challenge Together (the whole: us against the world) can rebuild so much.

Also, all the drives together (while house hunting, ect) as well as the late nights sorting and packing, or fixing / cleaning house....can lead to some meaningful and lasting conversations. YOU know, the one's that really get to the "meat" of it all.

When we "feel" closer towards our spouse (as a result of common experience and common goals) we tend to be willing and even WANT to open up more.
This is exactly what the 2 of you need right now to get over this HUMP stage.

Why will this work better than other things you may have tried?
Because it is a "real" project (not something invented or artificial). Not that they don't have their place.
However, a real life project like this....just flows more naturally and doesn't have the same "forced" feeling to it.

With Many things like even counseling, One spouse or the other can just quit or walk away from if not getting what they want.
This project however, once started, will have to be completed....no matter what. So no backing out or stopping by either of you.

Its also good to let the 2 of you experince "stress" together that has NOTHING at all to do with OM or the A.
Having it and then dealing with it together (the sense of : WE CAN DO THIS ) will make you remember HOW much you can accomplish as a unit. (And truly how much you want and even enjoy "overcoming" the chanllenges of life as a couple)!

Lastly, don't discount the importance of having something that you BOTH can get behind 100% and support one another on.
If you Both want this, then it is something Big, something Real as well as something Important that you each want and will benefit from doing.

Betting there haven't been many "big" issues that you've both come TO, at the same time and been Totally enthusiastic about IN Quite a While.
Here's one you can get behind.

And that's just the begining....cause once you do relocate (with new understanding towards one another) then as you settle in......SHE"LL actually be able to BE There WITH You, cause she will "FEEL" like she can truly Start Over.

Moving can also be a great Distraction for RAP as she goes through Her "withdrawal" period.
She will be SO involved with other things that she'll cope with it better.

Good news is that by the time its All over with and your family is settled in, she will be able to relate to you again (in mind, heart and spirit). She'll just be in a better place(in ALL ways) and be more able to give NC what he needs.

And NCW, you won't be pressuring her as much during the move.....as you'll be just as busy. Then when the dust settles at your new home, you'll Both be much closer to being on the SAME time table that I alluded to at the top.

Sadly, I told you a long time ago that your battle was not with the OM, but instead with How RAP Felt and thought about him. Unfortunately, your Still fighting that battle. Use this as a tool to get her mind Back onto the things in her life that can be positive for her. This distraction and "interruption" about this OM, is just what you need to get her back on track.
I believe she Wants to do the right thing. She's just not strong enough in that SAME environment to accomplish it. Hey, alcoholics and drug addicts are told to change their "stomping" grounds. Sounds like good advice to "A" addicts as well.
Good news for you is SHE WANTS to move.

The importance of the OM will be very altered in your "post move" world. IT is just one of the ways to make him less and less significant in your Reality. Then it will truly be about the 2 of you, and where the 2 of YOU decide you want to go from here.

I could go on, but enough from me.
Anyway, guys this was just some rambling thoughts that I hope can give you something to consider.

Your going to have to MOVE sometime, make it NOW and give yourselves the BEST Chance you have to really Recover (before your "LOVE BANK" gets drained).
later guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

RAP/NCW: One of my friends recently (within the last year) was dealing with the same issue as us. His 1st piece of advice was get to counseling ASAP. He thinks it would have saved his M. They were both too proud to ask for help. It certainly can't hurt. Best wishes to both of you.

Prayers,
R

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Recovering H ]</small>

RAP,

I am glad/sorry to see you back here. It is good your are back but I wish it was to brag you and NCW were doing well. But, that is not the case. You said something that really triggered something in me, and I thought I would respond.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do NOT focus on OM. I really don’t. I have told you that. Last night was just plain stupid. Not a normal decision on my part. Not how I have been acting. That is why I told you and felt bad about it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all RAP it is evident that this is NOT true, or you would not KNOW of who to follow to find out about OM. And you do, so you are in fact focusing on OM. Second, it was stupid, but it was a decision on your part to do this.

Yup, you feel bad about it afterwards, but that is too late. There is a famous Dr. on the airways, cannot remember his name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Phil, I believe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> who has a saying that is very much to the point here.

"Choose the actions, choose the consequences." You chose to follow OM's newest conquest. You know it would hurt you and it did. Then you come to your H and tell him you are hurt of a self-inflicted wound but you want his help. Then you wonder about his response. Further, you get mad and tell him...what? You love OM, you don't love H? Is that about it?

RAP, this is NOT about being good enough. This is not meeting someone elses standards. You are failing your H, your family AND yourself because you are chosing to do this. It is that simple you are really making the choices that has done this. It is not that you don't have it in you to be a loving person, and everything NCW could hope for. It is you have chosen to NOT do it, to not feel it, to not acknowledge it.

You have been in no contact for what? 3 months, but you do know enough about him to know who his newest girl friend it? You seem to know a lot about him, how is that? IT is because you have focus on him and you still are.

I don't know what will happen, but my recommendation to NCW is to go to PLan B, because you are still in this affair. It has not stopped, it just is not physical right now. The other reason for plan B is to avoid LB's. He did his share, but you got him RAG. You got him good.

You told him you hated him and you clearly got the message across to NCW that you loved OM. Congratulations! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

RAP, you are good enough and your H knows it. But, you are still in contact with OM at school, it is enough to feed your fantasy, your love, your need, and it is enough that you cannot stop hurting your H. Isn't that a clue? You may not be able to do a lot of things, but you could stop the LB's, but you don't. Why? OM is still in your life and you know it.

I must go. I realize this post is harsh, but I think it needs to be. You both used to post here a lot, and I grew fond of you both. This whole thing is sooo disappointing. RAP, you have absolute control over your life and the choices YOU make. Stop for a bit and think clearly about the choices, because although Dr. Phil can drive me nuts sometimes, he is right, you are choosing the consequences. Time for YOU to decide what you want, and make the choices that will get you there.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am tired. I really don’t know how to do this anymore. I am sorry.


I don't want to quit, but I don't know how to handle your feelings anymore. We have to get counseling and stop talking about it to each other all the time. It is not working. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I know this might not be any of my business, but there are high school kids who need gas money who would pick up your kids at school and bring them home safely for $1 or 2 a day. Choose the most mature and responsible one you know and pay them. That would eliminate almost all visual sightings of OM. It might help you, and be worth the money.

Thinking of you and praying for you, RAP.

RAP, you said this to NCW...

"But my response to your anger will not change"

Why not?

This seems like a really good thing for you to change about yourself ... how you respond to his anger.

Certainly one of the things we ARE capable of changing...(if we are willing) is our response to things.

Pep

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

And the score is....
RAP - 50
NCW - 50
The marriage - ZERO

This isn't a competition. Giving to another with the expectation of receiving as your motive will get you nothing. Give without expecting to receive. And NCW, as Lewis Smedes said,

"The pain we casue other people becomes the hate we feel for ourselves."

So instead of your goal being to get her to love you or to NOT love OM, make it your goal to help her love herself again.

RAP - "The purpose of being guilty is to bring us to Jesus. Once we are there then its purpose is finished. If we continue to make ourselves guilty- to blame ourselves- then that is sin in itself." That's what Corrie Ten Boom said, anyway. I agree.

NCW, you have to let go of the notion that you can do anything to turn RAP into your "perfect wife" again. Only God can do that. Stop being so stinking arrogant as to think you have that kind of power.

Onlywords

RAP..... NCW said this:

~~~~~~~~~~

"I have asked her to wear her wedding ring again. She won’t. Makes her feel “claustrophobic.”

~~~~~~~~~~

Put you wedding ring back on, you are married ...

It is a small enough gesture he is requesting ...

Again, why not do this small thing? Surely you can extend this level of grace?

Pep

Thank you all for your responses. It really does mean a lot that you take your own time and give it away.

Pep, I will wear my wedding ring. You are right. I have not been able to get it off (or even twist it for that matter) for about 8 years. I am not kidding!

When I finally got enough weight off, I had to pry it off of my finger. I was 98 pounds when that ring was sized, and until now, I was wearing it at 140 pounds.

I will never be that small again so it needs to be sized. The "claustrophobic" feeling is because it hurts. I still have an indention after a couple months.

Anyway, I will get it sized to fit a normal 35 year old (no longer a waif:) ) and I WILL wear it.

JL, your thoughts are appreciated. So much I want to say, but don't know if I am right anyway. Thank you.

Top Rope, somehow everything you said was such a help for me. I felt like we had our own cheerleader with suggestions I can really do. Thanks for your time.

Onlywords and all the others I may have forgotten, I appreciate that you still are willing to post to me and NC in all this. Sorry to disappoint. I do not communicate well all that is going on. I don't think I will ever do it like some of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks,
RAP