RAP: It's great to see you back here. Try not to take this next sentence as criticism as it's not meant as a 2x4. I see a lot of you in me with your statement:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sorry to disappoint. I do not communicate well all that is going on. I don't think I will ever do it like some of you </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shortly after I first got on this site, I learned a lot and wanted to pass that knowledge on. I wanted to be some great orator or something, to provide really great ensights, and the like. I used to watch my posts like that was some great indicator of how I was doing.

I believe FinallyLearning posted to you on another thread. She had some really great comments. And rather than trying to condense them or rehash them for you, let me just quote her. They truly are profound.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh yeah, and stop being so hard on yourself!!! This forum is here to HELP people, not make them feel inadequate. USE THIS FORUM FOR YOUR BENEFIT!!! That is the reason I am here. Look for the posts that will HELP YOU and leave the rest. Challenge yourself to grow not beat yourself up more .

The bottomline is, beating yourself up is allowing yourself to focus on the wrong thing, your percieved shortcomings and it keeps you from doing what you should be doing, GROWING!! Stop allowing yourself to focus on the wrong thing, just stop it. When that little voice starts saying anything negative to you tell it NO!! I know about that little voice, I have it too and it is not so little sometimes. Am I right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I highlighted the part that I think is the most important. Take care.

Prayers to you,
RH

You know that statement I made about being a great orator? Well, just goes to show how stupid I am. I said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> RAP: It's great to see you back here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish we both never had to be here. What I was trying to say was that it's good to see that you feel recovered enough to post here. I'm sorry for the stupid remarks.

I decided I would say thank you to Robby and Dipit and all you who have not turned away here instead of on the Jelly thread.

Robby, I can tell you have so much understanding (on both sides). I am sorry how you had to get there and what you are going through, but thankful you are here.

I can't stop crying now. NCW deserves all the support here, and I hesitate to say anything in my defense.

Looking back at some of what JL wrote, I guess I would like to clarify. I have to go to school, and I do see OM there. He usually stays at a great distance, and there has been NO attempt at communication since the end of July. That is until Sunday night. I was stupid. No one here may believe me, but I did not expect to talk to him. I knew I would get his answering machine because he is too scared to answer. Yes, that is a good thing. And YES I was really really wrong and stupid. All of it. I do not expect a continued relationship. It was dumb to worry about his anger.

School is not easy, but there is no communication. No eye contact. It truly sucks I have to see him everywhere(excuse me) but I am not continuing in the A. I have hurt NCW with my stupidity. I know that.

He has every right to be hurt and to protect himself. I don't know how to say this...but I get all this great advice on not beating yourself up and moving on. What if you "feel" ( I say this because NCW and I disagree if he is doing this to me) constantly judged and questioned about your goodness as a person, wife, and parent? He tries, but there is always judgment.

He was raised to be perfect. It was still never enough. So I know maybe the judging is more of a habit than anything. I don't want to bash, but I feel like people think I am chosing not to love NCW. I do shut down for self-preservation. Sure, that may be selfish. I have gone through spells of really reaching out (NCW would agree) and then being told it is not enough, or worse, that he doesn't see me trying at all. I could give specifics, but I am not trying to damage NCW. He has been doing his best,and I know he did not deserve any of this. I just don't want to be judged anymore. I have a hard enough time not judging myself. Learning and changing is one thing, getting in a rut and wallowing in the mud is another.

I am still not communicating well. I am constantly being told what I need to do to be the right spouse again. NCW is drawing up a postnuptual agreement I must sign that states if there is anymore affair behavior I get nothing and the kids will only be his. I understand, and maybe he is right. I don't know. When I explain I would like to renew our vows later when I can really experience joy with the kids there and not feel I am lying (sorry, don't know how else to say it), he has said:

If you can't say the vows now then you might as well get on a plane and let's call it quits. Again, maybe he is right. I want to do these things, but why all the demands? Why the prove it to me now?

What do you honestly do when you don't know how you feel, and your spouse says prove you love me now? It is so hard to explain. Mark deserves the best. No, he is not getting all he needs from me now. I do love him, but I cannot explain what is going on. Anyway, sorry if this makes no sense.

I will take correction and 2x4s. I appreciate all of it. But as I thought more on JL's comments, I have to say he is wrong this time. At least in my opinion. Sorry JL. I care for you more than I could ever express. You have been an incredible help to me.

Anyway, sorry for the vent. NCW, as the BS, and with the hurt he feels now, does deserve your support more than I do. Thank you for giving it to him. Don't know what else to say except "THank You" to our friends. I will never be able to express what you mean to me.

RAP

Oops. My last post almost sounded like I was saying the people on the Jelly thread had turned away from us. That is not what was meant! Sorry.

Pam

RH and Onlywords,

I forgot to thank you too. You are very special to us.

I still adore the hell out of both of you!

I've no advice, but a lot of support and a couple of shoulders should you ever need to lean on them.

RAP -

I am still not communicating well. I am
constantly being told what I need to do to be the right spouse again. NCW is drawing up a postnuptual agreement I must sign that states if there is anymore affair behavior I get nothing and the kids will only be his.

Don't you dare sign anything of the sort, which says you will give your kids up EVER, or anything else such as this. Ditto to any material assets, but especially regarding your children.

Best wishes to you both,

Weaver

RAP and NCW,

Man o' man, are the LB's flying around your household. Anyone care to guess how those LB's are going to affect your marriage?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

NCW you cannot demand her love and I think a post-nup or whatever it is, might be a bit much don't you? What are you putting at risk is you don't perform as a good H?

RAP, this whole thing of following OM's girl friend, not putting the rings on (come on, you knew they didn't fit, you could have gotten them resized MONTHS ago).

I don't pretend to know all that is going on, but from this very brief glimpse, it is clear you two are LB'ing each other big time, and the affect is pretty predictable. Why don't you two call a truce and sit down and talk. I mean really talk.

NCW, before you worry about the NEXT affair, why not really address this one and do your best to rebuild. RAP your comment about being "judged" is very familiar but also suggests you are NOT listening to NCW and you are commiting one of the deadliest of all LB's (Disrespectful Judgement,DJ's). You assesment about feeling judged is a DJ. Don't guess talk to him and listen to him. It is his job to be honest with you and he should.

I think you two need to take a step back and review the plan here. The number one directive is to stop the LB's and frankly RAP you seeing the OM is a huge issue. It is an issue not only for NCW but clearly for yourself. If you did NOT realize this before, you need to realize it now, OM has to be out of your life, and that also means sight. Don't tell me you cannot do it, start figuring out ways TO DO IT.

Must go, but I am so sorry to see you two here under these conditions. Please decide to talk to each other and LISTEN to each other.

God Bless,

JL

RAP (& NC too),

First to you Rap,
Please STOP apologizing at every turn, for simply stating what your thinking or how you are feeling. The only way for ANY of this to be worked through is with HONESTY....mostly between you and NCW. Your entitled to yours as much as Anyone!

Next, remember that this is MBers.
That means by default it takes 2. So BOTH partners (BS,WS) can & should expect advice, support and yes 2 x 4's as needed (on Both sides).

YOU deserve and should expect just as much Help here as your H.
In fact, he probably wants you to receive the help, as HE benefits from any progress or insight that you might pick up on.

I think you are in much the same situation as my W when it comes to MBers.
She views it as "MY" place.
My W says to me ," Those people there think you are just wonderful and just darn near perfect".
(Yaa right!)
However, She is already insecure about being the WS and then to have to confront people that basically only see the "positive" side of myself, is more then she usually wants to deal with.

I suspect you may have this same "challenge" with NCW being as well received here as he is. This only further puts you (in your mind) in the inferior position (when on this site).

However, NONE of us can Make you "feel" worthy or deserving of any help.

Perhaps this is where you first need to go.
You are wounded Deeply on the inside. This is obvious.

Its apparent (at least to me) that its not that you don't want to help NC or your M....but at this point you can't even help yourself.
YOU need some IC or some type of personal introspection.
But whichever route you take, your the one that needs to get a handle on this part of it.

YOU need to heal you BEFORE you can Heal this M.
Cause if YOU (as part of the foundation) are still weak and broken....then the M is sure to crumble at some point in the future. (Even if its not another A, but something else entirely).

YOU can't heal the M while your still not well. You've got some issues (sorry), and you need to deal with them first. Otherwise all the MC and such is just spinning your wheels.

NEXT: I completely understand your position on the renewed vows.
Personally, I only want to do something of that magnitude when I (me) am feeling ready and actually WANT to do it. I need to "FEEL" it for it to MEAN anything to me personally.

If I don't feel it (& therefore don't really want to do it "at the time") then to me its like I am being a phony and a fraud, and the ceremony means Nothing.
Its like "What does it mean, if its forced??"
Isn't the POINT of something like that......to be to do it because someone Wants too?

Fact is your telling him your not ready and not prepared for this....Right NOW! Not never, just NOT now.
In my mind, that is something you are holding onto as a "goal" to be reached.....and then you will do it, when you feel you've earned or deserve it.
(Keep in mind that there are merits to both positions, and I can see them both).

He wants it now... to PROVE something now (but before its actually accomplished (at least inside of you)....basically symbolism.
On the other hand, YOU will do it later...after you have Proven (either to him or yourself) that you have done what is necessary to redeem yourself and can Fully Recommit.
So similar goal....different time frame....one now, the other later.
This is what I alluded to before , you want the same things...but are on much different time tables.

Main problem with this is just like so many couples you see the same situation, yet come to different conclusions.
AH Yes, the differing perspectives of the BS and the WS. IF anyone knew how to consistently bridge that gap...they would be wealthy without measure.

In any case, Got to get back to this: YOU STILL NEED TO MOVE!!!!!
Rap, Just in your last response you are describing what amounts to ME as ongoing contact.
Even if only across a room.
Perhaps not wanted, but present none the less.
This type of contact is KEEPING the A, but more importantly the FEELINGS of the A, alive inside of you RAP.

YOU'VE given this current approach a Try. OK, tired it .....didn't work.
TIME to do something else.
Face it, you (at least at this time) cannot HANDLE ANY type of contact with this OM.
So find a way to END it once and for all.
Begin the process of moving immediately (as it still will take a while to fully implement it).
Hey, perhaps by the end of it all....you'll be ready to renew your vows.

YOU state your still very confused and can't put your heart into the things you "know" you should be doing. (intellectually)
Well, That's because your still addicted and keeping yourself in a constant state of withdrawal.
So its NO wonder that your feelings and emotions are in a constant state of chaos.
Its no wonder you walk around depressed and then go through your cycles of "obsessing" and then acting out.

It is very disturbing that this contact is leading you to the point of almost stalking the OM new girlfriend and also influeincing you into running around with a woman who is Divorcing her H.
Neither is good, and you know this.....but almost can't stop yourself. (Oh, for a short time....and then bamm your off again).

Just like with crack, this A "thinking" is leading you to make very poor choices and leading you to hang around with people of "like" minds. NOT good for you or your M.
But as long as you continue to "see" OM, you'll then reflect on feelings of the A, and the process just goes on and on.....

Take the opportunity to break the cycle & to stop living your life in Limbo (neither fully in nor out of either the M or the A.....part of both, but belonging to neither).

Just as your situation wasn't unique or special when it came to exposer, neither is it in the case of Contact.
Bottom line is YOU can't HANDLE the contact. ANY!!
It's NOT giving you (the inside you) the opportunity to disconnect and break the Strong Connection you have with the Powerful Emotions you felt during the A.
As a result, its blocking most of the attempts by your H to "get through" to you.
Your left in a constant state of turmoil. (You've both read enough to know this is not only common, but expected).

Just like as it took a while for NCW to grasp the importance of the "exposure" rule....so too he now needs to embrace the "NC For Life" Rule.
RAP needs to be away from this OM forever.
She can't do it on her own.
But she IS willing to move away....So Do it!

(Why do you think Bob P's wife is coming around?.....his Plan, combined with the NC).
You can't pick and choose like a dinner menu the options for a healthy recovery. If you want it to work, you need to be doing all the parts....NOT just the ones that you want or that come easier to you.

Once again, you've BEEN doing it your way.
Hey, you have every Right to give what you think is the best idea a shot.
OK....done it, NOT working........time to try something else.

NC, Your afraid of being alone should you move. Well, that is a risk...no doubt.
But are your chances any better of not being alone, if you continue to stay there and she can't break the connection for herself???
I say you know where its heading if you STAY there. (Either D or more misery and heartache). How is that a better option?

At least if you move your giving yourself, her and the M an actual Chance!
IN addition, this is a Tangible action the 2 of you can take to Show one another you actually mean what you say. (Cause isn't that one of the hard parts about repairing after infidelity.....so much of everything is just talk??)

You two are not that far apart.
The issues your facing now CAN be overcome.
YOU know what will eliminate many of the obstacles you are now facing.
Question is do you let fear find excuses not to do it, or do you COME Together and do what it is, that can Help save your relationship?

Again desperate times call for extreme measures.

Make no mistake: it was no picnic For my W and I to quite our jobs, find new ones, fix up our house, Move to a new state, find somewhere to live, pack/move, put house on market, take kids away from friends, family and schools........NONE of IT was fun, comfortable or easy.
(Especially, when attempting to also deal with the ramifications of an A).

Yet, for US it was necessary.
I truly believe it is for YOU as well.

Our new environment, gave us the ability to begin to come back together and work on what was wrong with the M (that helped lead to the A). IMO we NEVER would have gotten to that point in our old atmosphere. I would have left ....and then who knows??

Yes, this was just more ramblings, perhaps somewhat disjointed (but still well meaning).
You said you like it blunt and raw (NC anyway) so here it is.
However, I Always regret NOT being able to actually sit down and discuss issues and concerns with people ....face to face. That's where I feel so much more comfortable and helpful. ONE on one. But we do the best with the medium we are given.

Take care

<small>[ September 29, 2004, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

NCW: I have a question for you. Guess it's more out of curiosity, but with RAP following OM's GF around, did you ever tell her about RAP and OM?

I mean what is wrong with this woman if her man now has a new GF? He needs to pay the price, not get a free pass to keep playing.

Sorry, not that this really has anything to do with the Sunday Blues.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

R

P.S. TopRope: Nice message, well said. I think you summed up alot of what everyone was trying to say and then some.

Here are some comments:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">weaver: Don't you dare sign anything of the sort, which says you will give your kids up EVER, or anything else such as this. Ditto to any material assets, but especially regarding your children.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are supposed to be developing a recovery plan. When we WERE seeing MC, I came up with a recovery plan. She has promised me on four separate occasions that she has ended it with this OM. Each time, she was back with him. The last one being our big 4th of July vacation debacle. Where I looked her in the eye and said if you don’t go with us (on vacation) you will wind up sleeping with him. She did. At what point do I continue to trust her? How many times do I allow her to promise me that it is over to find out it is not? I think PA is over now, though she is very emotionally attached. She says she wants to stay married with me and does not want a D. I cannot take another betrayal with this (or any) guy. I should not have to.

In the recovery plan I came up with (and I stated in the plan that it should be reviewed with our MCs and RAP and we should POJA it, so I haven’t INSISTED on anything yet) I asked that she would sign a post nuptial agreement that if she contacted this OM again or had another A she would waive rights to alimony and custody. I would agree to the same terms. If for some reason we got a D for any other reason down the road, normal courtroom proceedings would apply. Was I wrong? I don’t know. We quit MC before we got anywhere with that. I would ask you: if she MEANT the promise, what would she have to fear? When I joined the military, I promised not to commit traitorous acts on pain of death. If I thought I was predisposed to commit them, then I shouldn’t join, right? I fail to see where this is unreasonable. I have been wrong before, but where is the boundary between SIGNING your rights away and THROWING your rights away? Waiting for your 2x4 weaver.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL: NCW you cannot demand her love and I think a post-nup or whatever it is, might be a bit much don't you? What are you putting at risk is you don't perform as a good H?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Almost the same question. I am NOT demanding her love. She is having trouble giving it (understandably) and I am getting agitated at the lack of it, considering (understandably). Sometimes I goof and LB, sometimes she does. We have had a major round this weekend. Last time was about a month ago, for the same reason – contacting the OM. Yes, in the between times there are some SMALL things that are problems from the pre-A M that have kind of been overshadowed by the A issue. I AM demanding her fidelity and honesty. And I am giving it in return. Is that too much to ask? I would say I let her end the affair her way 4 times and she did not. I would ask, when is she going to understand that CONTACTING HIM KILLS ME. It is hard enough to give unconditionally after the betrayal, after it is supposedly over. I screw that up lots. How hard is it to not contact him? I want to try and make this work. I have forgiven this contact breach after she PROMISED NO MORE 6 times now. 4 of them were physical encounters. Makes it hard to stay in Plan A.

Need to make a correction – while LBing Mon. or Tues. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I DID insist she sign the agreement. But it was out of anger and inappropriate.

My question to the two of you (JL and weaver) is this: I am only asking her to sign away rights if she contacts him again or has another A and I am willing to subject myself to the same conditions. If she REALLY means it, REALLY means she is going to try to make this work, then what is the problem with asking for that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> TOP ROPE: NEXT: I completely understand your position on the renewed vows.
Personally, I only want to do something of that magnitude when I (me) am feeling ready and actually WANT to do it. I need to "FEEL" it for it to MEAN anything to me personally.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was part of the recovery plan I drafted.

Restatement of wedding vows and wearing of wedding rings. I think both of us need to hear and say our wedding vows again. This needs to be done with a pastor and some witnesses (preferably {names of our MCs taken out} ). Nothing formal, but I think it would be important if our children were present so that they would get a sense that mom and dad want to work this out. They know something is wrong. This will be a sign of commitment between us and give me a milestone to attach my forgiveness. Something to say it is finally over. We must wear our wedding rings again to make the statement that we are married and that this is not a trial period. This must be done as soon as possible.

My intent with the vows was this: the KIDS need to see it. They KNOW something is wrong. They also need reassurance. She may not feel like it, I may not feel like it, THEY need to see it. Also, I needed a milestone. By this I mean an event to tie this to and say OK, it is now over. It is how I mentally work. My first milestone was returning from overseas duty. She took that away and was with him again. Second was our vacation getaway shortly after I got back with out the kids. She took THAT away and was with him again. Third was when we started MC. She took that away and was with him again. There were a few more. Events that I could mentally say “after this happened, she was back with me.” Know what my milestone is? When I confronted OM. Know what else? She tried to contact him once and actually contacted him once after that. Know what that makes me think? She did NOT choose ME, I forced ME on her by confronting him. If it wasn’t for that, she would still be WITH him. I am really getting to the point where I need to see something from her that she has CHOSEN me. It is hard for me to come to grips with this too and forgive her. It might be hard for her, and she may have to have some emotional healing, but she could summon the strength for some gesture for her children, why not her husband? And again, I haven’t demanded this, I drafted this plan and said let’s talk this over with our MCs and POJA it, I was open to suggestions from both her and our MCs (who thought the plan was pretty good. But when I wrote it, I had convinced myself that if she tried to talk to him again, it was over. I have backed down off that twice now. I’m either freakin’ spineless, or I am really committed to try and make this work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> NC, Your afraid of being alone should you move. Well, that is a risk...no doubt … How is that a better option?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was sharing my feelings with RAP. Part of me is very scared that we will move and she will leave. We have been trying to get back to a certain region of the country we love. I could get another job tomorrow, but it would not be where we want to end up. Means ANOTHER move in a year or two. We have talked about this and last I remember we were in agreement to wait until a job opened in the region we want to end up. I could get a job there too, at a significant drop in pay. I understand the significance of the move. My comment about being scared was more me explaining some of MY fears and feelings over this situation – the affair and her lack of effort (and I say lack of effort in the sense that what she has been doing has not been making large deposits in my love bank, compared to the withdrawals, but she has been making effort). Now though? I am pretty ready to take the next job that comes my way. I am ready to get out of here and if it sucks where that job is, how could it be worse than here? Would THAT be a LB to her? Yes. I am damned if I do and damned if I don’t.

NCWalker

NC -

First I would like to say I have the utmost respect for you, for your insight, your contributions and support to others, and what you have gone through for your marriage, your children and for RAP.

RAP is not herself, although I don't know her, I know enough to see how twisted by emotional turmoil she is right now.

As a mother and as someone who had a mother once, the postnup hit me very wrong. If she does have contact with OM again she risks losing her position in your family but she will never lose her position as her childrens mother. To sign something that says she will, to use her children as a bartering tool, is something I cannot comprehend. I am a single mom whose ex left me for another woman - we have joint custody and that is how it should be. Children deserve to be in the custody of both their parents, whether together or apart (provided there are no abuse/neglect issues).

I loved the idea of renewing your vows though. Those are promises every bit and more than a postnup would be. When you are both ready.

NC - I can only imagine your pain, and your fear. You are a good guy and I did not mean you any disrepect, but I am a woman & a mother and felt an incredible sympathy for RAP when I read that.

NCW,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My question to the two of you (JL and weaver) is this: I am only asking her to sign away rights if she contacts him again or has another A and I am willing to subject myself to the same conditions. If she REALLY means it, REALLY means she is going to try to make this work, then what is the problem with asking for that?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, NCW, the issue is not what she means, but what YOU mean. It seems to me you keep threatening, and threatening, but you haven't done commited to ending this marriage. She has a choice to make: you or OM. She is sort of getting both and it is not making her happy and it sure isn't making you happy. So is there something in MB that might address this situation? Yes, it is called Plan B, and yes a divorce will address it as well.

You cannot expect or demand anything from her. She has to provide what a W provides of her own free will. As it stands she gets to fight against your demands rather, than of her own free will decide to fight for this marriage. Time to consider Plan B, set up a way to deal with the children and how they will stay with you and her, and then go to it.

In case you haven't figured it out, all of this talking is NOT getting it done is it? Why? because there are no actions on either of your parts. She has sort of broken it off with OM, but you fear with good reason that this is just until she decides to contact him. You are right it is her decision and so far she has consistently decided to value OM over you, her children's happiness and emotional health, and even herself.

You cannot change that. Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

NCW, I follow your posts, almost religiously, even though I just lurk for the most part. I Also lurk on RAP's threads too.

You are a rock. I mean you are an honest, solid, dependable complete man.

You often say you are twice the man that RAP's homewrecking OM is. But I tell you this. You are twice the man I am. I envy your strength, your committment. It is a committment of actions not just words.

I am twice the man of this homewrecking OM that has invaded your life pillaged your property. He is a man of small character.

So NCW, if I am twice the man of RAP's OM, and you are twice the man I am, then you are at least four times the man OM is. I am being generous to OM.

I know I didn't add any thing of consequence to this thread. But dang NCW, both you and your children have a reward waiting for you out there when this all said and done.

Prayers for you and RAP.

<small>[ September 29, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

NC:
There are an awful lot of people who think very highly of both you and RAP. Gee...we don't even really know you. I would bet, if you could get past all of this, you would be a really great couple to have over for Christmas dinner parties.

I do not know if I have the same wisdom to impart as some of these other marriage warriors. I do not know if you respect at all my opinions and perspectives considering all the mistakes I have made in my own marriage, but, I have been in prayer about your situation and felt compelled to respond.

The post nuptial agreement is not where you should be focusing your energy right now. NC, I know you have been betrayed. I know you are knee deep in the rollercoaster, but, NC, I also know how amazingly smart you are. We have all witnessed your posts and been touched by your insights. YOU HAVE TO KNOW RAP IS IN WITHDRAWAL RIGHT NOW. You know the whole addiction analogy. And she gets a little fix each and every solitary day and has recently successfully kept herself from indulging in the addiction. To put more pressure on the marriage with postnuptial agreements, renewals of vows, showing some sign to the kids, all things designed to make you and the kids feel better, that is not going to save your marriage (and if this thing fails because you were rushing to things that were not the priority, imagine how hurt they will be then). If you wife was addicted to cocaine, would you want her to sign a paper saying she was never gonna snort the stuff again, or lose her marital assets or kids, or, renew her vows to prove to you she loved you more than cocaine, would that change that she is trying like hell to beat an addiction to cocaine? Would that help her withdrawal? Mix in that she gets a tiny little sniff of the stuff, just a little, barely a spec of it, everyday after school. Come on NC...you are not focusing on what RAP needs. And I know you want to scream, WHO CARES WHAT RAP NEEDS. I know you feel like it is your needs that have been completely ignored for so long, but, YOU HAVE THE CHANCE TO BE THE HERO, NC. TO BE THE HERO SHE NEEDS. SHE IS STUCK. SHE LOVES YOU. SHE NEEDS HELP GETTING OUT OF THIS MESS. Post nups and vow renewals are so low on the priority list, you have bigger fish to fry. If she can't beat this addiction, all it will be is two wasted attempts that zapped much needed time and energy from this already really sick marriage.

Read about addiction in Hebrews 12, where they speak of sin that "so easily ensnares us"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At what point do I continue to trust her? How many times do I allow her to promise me that it is over to find out it is not?... She says she wants to stay married with me and does not want a D. I cannot take another betrayal with this (or any) guy. I should not have to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC: Please read Matthew 21-35. You need to forgive her again. I know this sucks. I know we are not programmed. And I know this is advise easier given than taken. And I know that trust is not a right, but something that is earned. However, Christ Himself tells this parable. Certainly it applies to you, NC. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am eternally grateful that God does not apply the same formula of forgiveness toward us, our continued betrayals, our continued disobedience, as we are apt to extend to others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC said: I AM demanding her fidelity and honesty. And I am giving it in return. Is that too much to ask? ...How hard is it to not contact him? I want to try and make this work. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC, I do not think it unreasonable to expect fidelity and honesty, but I can hear your anger and seething DEMAND from 1,000 miles away. How about worrying about God's DEMANDS of you? NC, in Ephesians 5 it is really clear what is expected of you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself and wives should respect their husbands.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In case you are confused about what he means by loving your wife, well, what is love:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC: Are your demands, current treatment, etc. showing her this kind of love? This is the DEMAND you need to focus on, IMVHO.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am really getting to the point where I need to see something from her that she has CHOSEN me. It is hard for me to come to grips with this too and forgive her. It might be hard for her, and she may have to have some emotional healing, but she could summon the strength for some gesture for her children, why not her husband? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC, her gesture is fighting the very influential, painful, strong, draw of the flesh right now...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “For what I am doing I do not understand. For what I will to do I do not practice; But what I hate, that I do.”
Romans 7:15

“…For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.” Romans 7:18
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC, perhaps God has gifted you with a self discipline that others do not possess (although, with your angry replies, bitterness, or recent LBs, I would wager you have your own fleshly "demons" to fight). RAP is fighting an internal spiritual war she loves you and her children so much...surely you must see this. I am not making excuses for her behavior, I am not condoning adultery, and I am not saying that I do not know first hand the excrutiating pain, however, you do not know her side either. You do guess to what level she was addicted, under the influence, in the snares, whatever...and she is fighting, NC. The HARDER thing to do. That is a HUGE gesture. NC...that is a HUGE GESTURE.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ephesians 6: 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a battle she is fighting within herself for you. Because she chose you. This is her little piece of misery (because I know all about your piece of misery...I lived/live it)...this is her cross to bear. This is her and God's battle to wage. Seems as if you need to help her, by forgiveness, love, and following the commands given to YOU by God.

Pray on the move. Pray in the Spirit on the move. I feel a really strong word about this. Pray on this. Take authority over your family. Cherish and protect RAP. Help her to get out of the snares. Whatever the cost. God will provide the means.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Isaiah 54
16 "See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc; 17 no weapon forged against you will prevail, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and this is their vindication from me," declares the LORD. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let your legacy be the victory of this battle.

Plus, I would really love to make my white chocolate cheese cake for you both at my next Christmas Dinner Party.

Love for you both,
Christy

A few more comments:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">weaver: If she does have contact with OM again she risks losing her position in your family but she will never lose her position as her childrens mother. To sign something that says she will, to use her children as a bartering tool, is something I cannot comprehend.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL: So is there something in MB that might address this situation? Yes, it is called Plan B, and yes a divorce will address it as well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Preparing for a 2x4 here and about to contradict a MB tenet. I don’t think I CAN plan B. I TRY to bounce whatever I do off the Scriptures. Some may see this as a fault, some may not. Either way, I do not care as doing this has earned me friendships, respects, and many blessings from God. I have not seen, or been able to back up with the Word, what MB calls plan B. If it comes to that, it will be that. In my mind, I am going to Plan A this (with all of my failings and shortcomings executing that) or I am going to fail (throw in the towel).

She should WANT to stay. In my mind, the servant-leader model of Jesus himself does not Plan B. Thus, the spawning of the post-nuptual. This is going to sound a little cold, someone actually accused me of being like Spock, and I am a little logical, but do have feelings. But follow this. RAP has not left me for the OM yet. I have little evidence that at this point in time she is staying in the marriage for me. And let me very carefully quantify that – she may be sticking around for the HOPE of what we can become or the restoration of the marriage. But not for me IN THE NOW with all the tension between us. The wounds that time will heal. This OM contact is killing me and compassion for my feelings is not a strong enough deterrent for her. I felt it made sense to up the ante. Beyond HOPE for us, the only other things that would keep RAP around are: (1) my income, which is a base, foul, and unlikely reason given her nature or (2) the children. The agreement would ensure that more weight was carried, more severe consequences if the transgression would happen again. IF she is staying for the HOPE, then no big deal, nothing is at risk. She should have no problem with it. See? Hey, I’m not saying it was a GREAT idea, but I don’t think plan B is a great idea either. At least for me. I’m not really wired that way. Maybe I should be. That seemed the lesser of two evils.

To weaver:
I understand your point. Your statements are sound. Indulge me a bit and let me debate this with you, it will help me “test the bounds” of what is going on in my head and firm it up.

This is a hypothetical situation, and I am in know way implying RAP is doing any of this, so when I say “spouse” I mean hypothetically.

If my spouse got angry at me and stabbed me (not mortally) with a kitchen knife I would divorce her. Would you grant us joint custody? Or would you be concerned with the kids welfare in the care of a woman that could stab her husband? Not in self-defense, but for a perceived wrong. The kind of thing most women face, typical marriage issue. Joint custody then? Or would you give me the kids? Is that different because it is a physical attack? Heck, I would have preferred the kitchen knife to the emotional pain I am facing. I have been hurt at work worse than that, and kept plugging away. Why is the emotional knife any less of an offense? Should I just “blow off” the emotional offense? One of the reasons recovery is difficult, is that not only is there an A to deal with, but the emotional scars from BOTH parties before the A. If the emotional wound is not such a big deal, why do we all have such a hard time with them? Not to belittle physical abuse, by any means, but I would be curious to ask a battered wife – is it the blows or the emotional trauma of being objectified and subjected to the abuse that is worse?

If you say there is a difference between an emotional wound being lesser and not reason enough to grant custody, but a physical wound being severe enough that the spouse should lose the kids then why are MOST of us here? There are a few stories, and my heart and prayers go out to them, where physical abuse is involved. THEY should be the ones with all this angst. But from reading posts (mine included) where it is ONLY emotional abuse, heck, we ought to be run out of here like lightweights for such a trivial problem. Then what about the people who are only suffering from EAS? Wouldn’t that be laughable? No, the TRUTH is that the emotional wounding is as deep. Maybe deeper. Abuse is abuse.

But NCW, what about INTENT? Good question. There is clear intent if I were stabbed by my spouse with a kitchen knife. People UNDERSTAND what pain that causes. Is that any less the case with an emotional wound? Especially if a similar one has been recently inflicted? What if my spouse is just out of control and flinging emotional wounds willy-nilly? If she was flinging a kitchen knife willy-nilly, my gosh, you’d RUSH the kids to me and NEVER let her see them. You can’t run around children willy-nilly with a kitchen knife, you might hurt THEM. I would pose to you, IF I WERE NOT THERE taking the brunt of the emotional abuse from an out of control spouse, would the kids be at risk for this spouse’s need for a target? Be honest. Haven’t you ever had a knee-jerk reaction towards your kids when one comes up with something irritating just after an argument with your spouse? Not saying ACT on it necessarily, but have the feelings come up?

So if my spouse is emotionally lashing out at me and wounding me terribly, knowing what her actions will do, she is either doing it intentionally in which case the children should be taken for their own safety, or doing it because she is out of control, in which case the children should be take for the same reasons.

Sure, the ACT of re-contacting the OM or having another A does not justify taking the kids, BUT that act also carries with it the WILLFUL infliction of a horrible emotional wound. One that Harley claims is the worst (or one of) pain someone can face.

Weaver, I know there is a hole in this hypothetical situation somewhere, where is it? See the point? If she and I agree that it is NEVER going to happen again, what is the problem? If you asked me to sign something that said if I ever walk up to a complete stranger with a gun and blow him away you will take my wife and kids from me (and there was motivation to agree to sign, say my parents lives depended on it because you are some weird comic book villain) I would not have a problem signing. Because I am NOT GOING TO DO IT. I can say that confidently.

I get your meaning – a parent has a right to their child. But the kitchen knife can demonstrate that they are not FIT to raise the child, thus should not have the child. Why not the emotional knife? Unless emotional wounds don’t count. You won’t have a lot of friends around here if you say something like that. We all know too well that they do. Something to think about.

Back to reality. Where does MY wife fit in? She didn’t intentionally wound me emotionally. Her motivation was (I’m guessing) fear for her OWN emotional well being that enabled her to sacrifice my feelings. Fog. Plain and simple. I don’t think she is proud of what she did, in fact she probably feels pretty bad about it. Hard for me to emotionally understand because I have a KNIFE in my heart over it. Hurt like he11. Took me back to square one in this twisted forgiveness game. I am getting tired of being the devil’s whipping boy and him using me to hurt her back. Looking back, I will probably just say she flinched and I took the hit. Shouldn’t have happened. But it did. If she signs the agreement and it prevents her from flinching, then (a) I’m protected and (b) so is she. A win-win.

------------------------

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tom Joad:
You are a rock. I mean you are an honest, solid, dependable complete man.
…
I know I didn't add any thing of consequence to this thread. But dang NCW, both you and your children have a reward waiting for you out there when this all said and done.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tom, you actually ticked me off with this. To this board, I am a friend and servant. And I am better at that than a husband. Of all the things you said, the ONLY one that applies is honest. I am that. And even that is faulty because my truth is my interpretation. RAP and I have posted on the same thing and our stories don’t match word for word. Neither one of is lying, it is our perception. One of the relationship keys, learn to see what the others see.

You are the second person to commend me on my abilities here tonight. I get told that I am thoughtful and thought provoking when I post on here. Know what? I really don’t give it that much effort. When I post, I just type away and the words go down about as fast as I can type in a continuous stream. I type at about 80 wpm. I don’t go read them again and say “Oooh, that doesn’t make sense.” I just rattle ‘em off. I go back and spell check it, because my PC let’s me and I fix all the UBB codes I messed up, but I just rattle ‘em off. Pretty freaky, huh?

Know how I do it? I don’t do a darn thing. I let the Spirit lead me and at the end, it just “makes sense.” Rock? Solid? Dependable? Maybe sometimes. Not any more or less than any of you. There are BS out there doing MUCH better than me. The timelines of their recoveries show it. I just get on and let the Spirit minister to people who need it. I “let” it happen. It is a gift I have been blessed with (on occasion) and I have the extreme pleasure of letting God use me that way.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not like I’m saying “GOD HAS SPOKEN TO ME AND HE TOLD ME TO TELL YOU THIS.” I watch the responses to my posts. MOST of the time, I am kind of “led” to address someone’s issue. The neat thing to watch is that many times, the person who I write to isn’t necessarily the beneficiary. After my post, someone who hasn’t even POSTED on the thread will say “Thank You NCW”. To me, that is the neatest part. God knows where to put the post so that the right person reads it. It’s really all Him. Case in point, I was “dark” for a while. Wasn’t posting. I was reading, it’s just that I wasn’t “led”. If I “push” it, it doesn’t work. It’s really only ME when I am on the Jelly thread. That’s me. Or when I do something logical, like my poser to weaver above. Sometimes I go back and read my own posts and say WOW. Did I just write that?? BELIEVE ME, when I post that way, I need to LISTEN to it as much as any of you. It’s not really me. I just wait for it and I work pretty hard at hearing Him. I have to. My life depends on it. He chose to bless me that way. Why? I don’t know. For how long? I don’t know. But I’ll do it as long and as often as He asks. That I DO know.

Now if I could only get it to “work” like that in my M, I wouldn’t have any problems. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

NCW

RH – Kind of puts a neat spin on PHI 4:13, don’tcha think?

RAP:

It is because I want to see your Halle Berry/Nicole Kidman self at the 2005 Christmas Dinner Party, and well, cuz I really care about you and NCW, that I am writing you this post.

I recently read a story of a Christian couple who were called into the ministry to help those in addictions (mainly drug addictions). Their son was lost to a serious drug addiction and they finally realized they were not gonna win against this thing without Christ.

Well, the good news is, they beat it, and now have a wonderful testimony for others that are caught in this trap. But they talked with their son to see why he was unable to recover with all the other attempts at breaking the addiction (with rehab, tough love from his parents, etc.)

These were the things that their son cited:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Looking back, he points to four basic reasons that they failed: "1. I tried to change my behavior instead of the underlying belief that determined my behavior. 2) I focused on me and what I should do instead of focusing on God and what He had already done. 3). I relied on my own efforts instead of trusting God and living by the power of the Holy Spirit. 4) I accepted a failure identity instead of appropriating my true identity in Christ." [3]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RAP...the last one speaks VOLUMES to me. Look at all your "failure" statements:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was stupid...And YES I was really really wrong and stupid...It was dumb...I have hurt NCW with my stupidity...What if you "feel" constantly judged and questioned about your goodness as a person, wife, and parent...I just don't want to be judged anymore... I have a hard enough time not judging myself... Learning and changing is one thing, getting in a rut and wallowing in the mud is another...I am still not communicating well...NCW, deserves your support more than I do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rap, that was just from today's post.

Rap, for a minute, will you pray for a minute, and tell me, do you think this is the way you are under seige. Is it possible, Rap, that NC is NOT judging or condemning you or calling you to impossible standards, but, you are. Rap, could you be listening to a pesky, damaging whisper in your ear that says you are not worthy of a life victorious in Christ?

Rap, have you proclaimed these things for yourself:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful,
I know that full well. Psalm 139:14

Luke 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man Genesis 9:6

Thy hands have made me and fashioned me : give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments. Psalms 119:73

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The truth is, just like the prodigal son, God loves us so much, and despite all our terrible messes, cannot wait for us to come running down that road, fall into his arms, where he will have a rockin party for us, the heavens will shake, they will kill the fat cow and fry up some filet mignon, and break out the best vintage wines available. He always wanted you home.

I was in a bible study once when I heard the most beautiful testament to how much God loves us (aside, of course, from the awesome sacrifice, salvation, gift we have in Christ).

Remember when you were pregnant with your first child. Remember how excited you were to get the nursery just right. Picked out the loveliest linens, painted the room, prepped the crib. Your love for that child was so tremendous.

Re-read the creation story in Genesis.

RAP, God so loved us, that he created a whole world for US. If you read it again, you can almost hear God's giddy anticipation, as he created all these marvelous and wonderful things for our "nursery." He did this for who? Certainly not himself, for God did not "need" earth. He did this because he has so much love to give, that in his love, he created man, so he could fellowship with us.

RAP, you were fearfully, wonderfully made. On purpose. In love. For no other reason, really, but to be loved SO COMPLETELY by God, and He is hoping, so you will LOVE HIM SO COMPLETELY too.

RAP, I do not know if this is sinking in, I do not know if this is a fundamental truth about you, about God, about YOUR VALUE that will give you the power you need to beat this addiction defeating you, your husband, your family...

But, as I like to say (something I cannot take credit for being the author of), but there is a God-sized hole in your heart, and you can't fill it with anything, NCW, the kids, OM, anything but God.

I read your posts and hear a defeat, a pain, a questioning of worth there, and I just want to stand up and SCREAM for satan to take a hike. Spirit of rejection and abadonement, I bind you in the name of Jesus, and cast you out to uninhabited places, never to return, and in it's place, I speak in the unconditional love, acceptance, and confidence of who RAP is in Christ.

Praying for you both.

NCW, I think you responded to your own hypothetical pretty well. The emotional wounds of infidelity are inflicted intentionally, but out of negligence, not malice. And they're invisible (except maybe for all these gray hairs).

Using plan B, to protect yourself from further wounds that would make recovery unlikely, is an act of altruism. I don't think I'm wired for it either, by the way.

I also don't love the idea of a biiiiig consequence hung over RAP's head as a deterrant. Though perhaps a certain amount of "end justifies the means" can be accepted in this particular situation...

NIGHT - GC

DipiT,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you would be a really great couple to have over for Christmas dinner parties.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, RAP is the better dinner guest. She has all the poise and grace. Lights up a room. I am a Neanderthal. Camping, fixing broke stuff, getting greasy, nasty jobs no-one else wants, that’s where I shine. I am way too utilitarian to be a good guest. Point me to your litter box, there’s too much pressure to use your bathroom and not wreck it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not know if I have the same wisdom to impart as some of these other marriage warriors. I do not know if you respect at all my opinions and perspectives considering all the mistakes I have made in my own marriage, but, I have been in prayer about your situation and felt compelled to respond.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ARRGH! Why the first part? Why do you think you were defeated? Go read ROM 8:28. Liked the last part though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The post nuptial agreement is not where you should be focusing your energy right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m not. It was something I included in a recovery plan that never went anywhere. I brought it up during our mutual LB fest the other night and it was wrong. I don’t know how it got started here, but it is sort of an interesting topic. Not planning on going anywhere with it and not pushing it. Stop worrying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you wife was addicted to cocaine, would you want her to sign a paper saying she was never gonna snort the stuff again, or lose her marital assets or kids, or, renew her vows to prove to you she loved you more than cocaine, would that change that she is trying like hell to beat an addiction to cocaine?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Almost caught me in my own trap, DipiT. Transferring the situation to another scenario to see if it makes sense. OK. Here is your hole, now you come plug it. SOME people RESPOND to the tough love. How many times do you try the patient route? When do you say I am getting the same response every time I do THIS, so now I am going to do THAT. If your analogy holds water, we should never leave Plan A. It should eventually work.

RE Hebrews 12 Good passage, don’t see the relevance though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am doing Hebrews 12. I actually pray for the OM and especially his wife. I actually witnessed to him twice. I fail sometimes when it comes to RAP. She is so close and can hurt me so because she has my heart.

RE Matthew 21-35 Got that one too. Regardless of the outcome, I will forgive her. I have forgiven her for the other betrayals. Or at least am well on the way to. This was a new one and it caught me off guard. She WAS doing real good at the NC thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> NC, I do not think it unreasonable to expect fidelity and honesty, but I can hear your anger and seething DEMAND from 1,000 miles away. How about worrying about God's DEMANDS of you? NC, in Ephesians 5 it is really clear what is expected of you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you? How? I don’t mean that sarcastically. RAP says I am angry and she can’t take my anger. I just don’t see it. I’m not FEELING angry when I talk to her. (In general, I mean. I WAS angry after Sunday.) RAP has told me she “can’t take the anger” and it confuses me. Why? I don’t FEEL angry most of the time she tells me I AM angry. How can she SAY I am angry when I don’t FEEL it. I mean, she doesn’t KNOW what I am feeling, she can only guess at it. There is a key here in what you have said. It doesn’t matter to her WHAT I am feeling, ONLY what she is perceiving. She was raised in a hot/cold home. Either REALLY loving and jovial or REALLY fighting. To her, NOT ANGRY is probably laughing and carrying on. Then angry is elevated voices, cursing and yelling. I was raised in a really strict home. Words to me were TERSE. TO THE POINT. GET WHAT NEEDS TO BE SAID SAID THEN GET ON WITH WHAT YOU MUST DO NEXT. I’m not really sure I SAW anger because it was hard to tell the difference. I’m guessing my “natural, normal” state (in quotes, because I was taught this as normal from my parents) SEEMS pretty angry to her. I do have an “edge” in normal conversation. Why do YOU think I am angry? What tipped you off? I’m really not. At best, frustrated and not necessarily with her.

The take away – there is something I need to work on. How do I get less tense as a normal state. Her perception of what I am sending may not match what I am intending to send, but if I really do LOVE her I should be willing to change to make her more comfortable, happy. And I do and I am. Now send me the magic wand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
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NC: Are your demands, current treatment, etc. showing her this kind of love? This is the DEMAND you need to focus on, IMVHO</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A fair question, and I am not ashamed to answer it. Probably weak on the boasting part. Definitely weak on the easily angered part in light of recent events. (I know, a reason is not an excuse). Bad on the record of wrongs. I don’t hold stuff against her. I am too logical. I will bring that stuff up when she is contradicting things or holding me to a standard she is not meeting. And there are also lots of things she meets and I miss. We both have our strengths and weaknesses. I shouldn’t bring it up, and I don’t do it because I am holding it against her, more that I am holding her TO what she said before. But I can see how she interprets it that way and it is wrong of me to do it, either way. Sorry RAP. Plus, she is a woman and gets to change the rules whenever she wants. (Sorry girls, couldn’t resist the dig <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). I would have to say kind of weak in “always protects” when I am hurting. Kind of hand in hand with self-seeking. Clearly, when I am really hurt and in “self-preservation” mode I am protecting myself more than her, and that would also be self-seeking. In general, I think I do pretty well. It’s just when I don’t, I REALLY don’t. Much better at this with my kids than my wife, but they don’t hurt me as often either. I would say once a month, RAP would say more frequently. Would be interested to hear her take on this. Another take-away. Remembering wrongs is a no-no. Thanks for making me reflect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “For what I am doing I do not understand. For what I will to do I do not practice; But what I hate, that I do.”
Romans 7:15

“…For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.” Romans 7:18</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know what you are trying to say here DipiT, but you have these verses a little out of context. You have to read ROM 7:7-25. This is a model of how the LAW of God fails us in that it does not prevent us from sinning. It is God’s spirit that prevents us from sinning, but the law is there as almost a marker to let us know that we have. It is saying WE are not bad (repeal of original sin) but that sin living in us is bad. I think, and I may be wrong, that you are trying to say that “everyone sins, it is to be expected.” And to that I would say:

James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Which essentially says OBEY God, ACTIVELY RESIST the temptation, and Satan (the sin living in you) will flee. So do we then say “everyone sins, it is OK” when faced with the truth that if we walk in God’s obedience and resist the devil, he will flee? That’s a pretty simple formula. Did I SIN when I was angry at her, or did I just not love her or act virtuously to her? Remember, WRATH is one of the seven deadly sins, not anger (though sometimes it is translated as anger, but it is more elemental in meaning, like RAGE. Anger is a feeling, wrath is an action. They are the antithesis to the Fruits of the Spirit, also NOT feelings). Did she SIN when she deceived me and broke my trust, or did she just not love me?

I would then say

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.

The formula for atonement. I haven’t seen this from her for Sunday night. Or for some other wrongs.

Now a few points. She says she apologized – but in the same way I say I don’t show her anger. I don’t FEEL anger when she says I am angry, but that is what she interprets. Out of love for her, I should change my behavior. I am OK with God, because my heart is NOT angry. (Again, talking about the general anger state she says I have, I WAS angry on Sunday). So I should be OK, right? No. I am to love her as myself as her husband and that means respect her feelings as my own, aka change my behavior.

She hasn’t apologized in a way that seems broken hearted or contrite to me. She HAS apologized – the words came out. And if in her heart she is humbled, she is OK with God and doesn’t OWE me anything. Just as I don’t OWE her to be less angry. But out of LOVE for me, should she not apologize in a way that witnesses to my spirit? Much like my “general tone” to her is communicating anger, her apology to me has a tone of resentment. Not really an apology. Not a requirement, if her heart is truly OK, at the end of the day, she only OWES God. But also not a sign of love for me. The struggle? The struggle is the knowledge that she is trying, but not doing. The struggle is with my OWN patience. At what point do I say she’ll never get it? I’m not at that point. But Sunday night still HURT and it would go a long way if she made some effort here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> NC, perhaps God has gifted you with a self discipline that others do not possess (although, with your angry replies, bitterness, or recent LBs, I would wager you have your own fleshly "demons" to fight).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do have my own demons. But I don’t have a gifting of self-discipline. There are things I refuse to do when we fight. RAP tends to be a little more no holds barred in the lashing out department, unable to restrain herself. But when I am really angry (when I am feeling it) I tend to not back down. I don’t have a fight of flee instinct, it is all fight. When I DO back down, it is an EXTREME effort of will through God’s grace. We are most bothered (she and I) when the other cannot do what we can do – I don’t back down, she doesn’t fight fair. But when your angry, it is hard to remember the grace that IS extended in the areas we don’t.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do guess to what level she was addicted, under the influence, in the snares, whatever...and she is fighting, NC. The HARDER thing to do. That is a HUGE gesture. NC...that is a HUGE GESTURE.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This one made me pause, and you make a strong case. I would point out that during the struggle, you don’t have time to think. You are struggling. I can’t speak for everyone on this, but in MY PARTICULAR case, there are reasons that make the forgiveness part quite difficult that I do not consider open for discussion. I would not be so hasty to say either one is harder than the other. Just different. I would also not be so hasty to say that her choosing to stay with me is a gesture more huge than me accepting her back. Yes, she ended the A out of love for me, but also out of love and fear of God because it is wrong in His eyes. My forgiveness and acceptance of her is purely out of love for her, it only honors God.

I am not saying that her struggling is NOT a huge gesture. And I appreciate her for that. But I am saying that my forgiveness is ALSO a huge gesture and I DON’T feel appreciated for that. But again, we are back to interpretations. She may be doing things she feels are showing me appreciation and I am not interpreting them that way. I would be VERY interested to know if SHE feels I appreciate HER struggle for our marriage. I honestly do, but SHE probably doesn’t feel it from me either. Net result, another take-away for NCW. Figure out how to show her I appreciate her struggle.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ephesians 6: 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DipiT, I’m going to break you of this “one verse quoting habit” if it KILLS ME. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Says right before verse 12…

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.

The whole SECTION is about what to do to WIN the struggle in verse 12. So if all you have to do is Eph 6:11 and 13-20, then just do it. It’s not brain surgery. I pray the armor prayer with my children EVERY NIGHT before they go to bed. Do the stuff Paul says and you will WIN the battle in vs. 12. The enemy was beaten on the cross, we just have to believe it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is a battle she is fighting within herself for you. Because she chose you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It BETTER NOT BE. It BETTER BE FOR HER. I am her spiritual head and I will answer for her condition, but if I cast my pearls before swine, the onus is on the swine. Not saying she is doing this, but if she rejects my shepherding as the spiritual head, THAT is between her and God. I’m only involved if I don’t shepherd her AS the spiritual head. I do OK at it. The heart is there, the delivery needs work. Whatever the outcome, I will be OK with God because I won’t quit until I have done my best. Fact is, I already HAVE gotten a Word from Him. A peace. That He was pleased and I have done my best. He essentially released me from the M back in June with a great feeling of peace. I’m still around because I am choosing to fight and I believe WE can win.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is her and God's battle to wage. Seems as if you need to help her, by forgiveness, love, and following the commands given to YOU by God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DipiT, my own view is a little different. Sorry. It is MY battle as well. I am her spiritual covering. I do need to help her with the love and commands of God, but the forgiveness if for ME so it doesn’t eat ME alive. She is already FORGIVEN by God. Just can’t seem to convince HER of that. She is really beating herself up. Way too much. I didn’t help on Sunday. Should have been stronger. But it hurt. Again, a reason, not an excuse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Isaiah 54
16 "See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc; 17 no weapon forged against you will prevail, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and this is their vindication from me," declares the LORD. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THAT part was GREAT. Thanks for the encouragement.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let your legacy be the victory of this battle.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It will. And if I fail, I will take every lesson learned and make DAMN sure it doesn’t happen to my children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plus, I would really love to make my white chocolate cheese cake for you both at my next Christmas Dinner Party.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BIG POINTS with RAP on that one. I myself am a cherry pie kind of person.

You really got me thinking DipiT. I really do appreciate that. And I can’t tell you how special you and YOUR struggle are to me and RAP.

Thanks,

NCW

GrayCloud,

You get gray hairs too? Do they make you look distinguished or old? I am prematurely gray and drive my kids nuts by telling them it is a sign of wisdom. They just shake their heads.

altruism - SHOW OFF! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I had to look that up.

unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others

But after reading the definition, I think you have it backwards. Isn't plan B selfish? To protect yourself?

Now let's see you use it in a song lyric. Yeah. That's the ticket. A rock song about being unselfish.

NCW