I think of the self-protection as gravy. You're protecting your feelings to give your marriage its best chance, and you are doing this despite having what even the Good Book states are reasonable grounds for divorce (right?).

I will use that MF in a song. I've got a new pile of tunes I'm working on, and playing around with certain favorite words is sometimes how I get lyrics written.

GC

NCW -

What I said was children deserve to have their parents, not that parents deserve to have their children. A very big difference.

The idea that if RAP has more contact with OM, she loses the right to have her children is flawed for several reasons -

1. the right is for her children to their mother
not the other way around

2. you are using emotional blackmail to get
love from another and only love begets love

3. the postnup is not of love because what would
happen if RAP signed the postnup giving up
rights to the children and then in a moment
of weakness she contacted OM? how could
she overcome the knowlege that in her addict-
tion she signed away her own children.
what would that do to her internally? it
would destroy her? in asking that,
is that a loving act on your part? what
happens to the children knowing that they
were so seemingly thrown away by their
own mother?
this is not of love either...for the children
on your part.

The idea was brought up out of pain and desparation , but would only cause much more pain for all.

Affairs are abusive, there is no question. But when you vowed to love, honour and cherish RAP in good times and bad you signed up to be there for her through all of this. Painful? yes Fair? no However you do have the right to divorce her if you so chose, you do not have the right to take the children away from their mother. And saying that she is an abusive mother is a point that I'm not even going to debate with you as I do not have the skills necessary to win that one, however you and I both know that although RAP is shaking the very foundation of her childrens security, bringing pain into their lives & yours, she is not an abusive mother.

RAP needs for you to love her unconditionally right now, she needs for you to be her safe place, her protector in her time of need. How much longer you can be this rock, I don't know. But I am hoping as everyone on this board that it will be for as long as it takes for her to beat this demon.

SerendipT hit it right on I think with her passage from the bible about love.

Open the emotional cage you have put around RAP and set her free, free to come back to you in love and all it's glory. This is what Plan B is to me, and if you choose not to go that route than you must open the cage and set her free while you are living with her and enduring her withdrawal and inability to commit. And this is why you have your MB friends to help you through this, regardless of the road you choose to take on this very hard journey. (thank God for us all that we have this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

One more thing I would like to add on a different note is that you say the words just flow from your finger tips when a post moves you to respond because you are God's servant. I believe this with all my heart about you. I also have a feeling that there is a lesson here for you, in what is going on in your marriage right now and perhaps you are missing that lesson. When you have learned the lesson, what ever it is, than things will be as they should be in your marriage.

Weaver

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

I need to revise the last paragraph to state that "when you learn this lesson all will be as it should be with you"

The way I said it about your marriage being right after the lesson is learned implies that you have the entire burden of restoring the marriage and I did not mean to imply that at all.

JMO

Weaver

I have not been on this thread since yesterday. Wow, I am overwhelmed.

DipiT, how do you know me so well? You have seen inside me what I have been unable to express to Mark. I read and try to take in all the posts, but this one just hit me dead on. Are you sure you haven't known me all of my life? Thank you.

I have much more to say, but somehow I am feeling a little overwhelmed at the moment. will come back later. Thank you for all the posts. They are all so insightful.

RaP

weaver,

You are a smart one too, aren't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You all have a lot of wisdom to share. I am trying to listen to all of it.

RAP

Weaver,

Please, do not worry. I am not pushing this issue, but would like to continue to discuss it a bit. Lots of parallels into other areas could be drawn by firming up the boundaries on this issue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I said was children deserve to have their parents, not that parents deserve to have their children. A very big difference.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. But what if the parent is destructive to a child? How does the child KNOW to make their own decision? Your mom and dad seemed “normal” to you because it was what you knew. I am in my late thirties and my oldest is a pre-teen. He is our first. He has a friend, same age, but this kid is the caboose in his family. HIS dad is almost 60. My son was STUNNED by this fact when he met the other boys dad. He just ASSUMED that because it was “that way” in his family, it was “that way” in all the families. EVERY kid DESERVES good parents. Some don’t. Shouldn’t those kids be protected?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. you are using emotional blackmail to get love from another and only love begets love</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with the statement that you cannot blackmail for love, but the issue came about out of protection for my feelings. As in preventing me pain, not forcing her love. Statement is correct, but I fail to see the connection to the issue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3. the postnup is not of love because what would
happen if RAP signed the postnup giving up
rights to the children and then in a moment
of weakness she contacted OM? how could
she overcome the knowlege that in her addict-
tion she signed away her own children.
what would that do to her internally? it
would destroy her?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For that matter, how could she overcome the knowledge that in her addiction she destroyed her husband’s heart? The process of overcoming would be the same, I don’t see why the status of children makes this different. Unless, of course, she doesn’t love me at all. In which case I would learn this definitively by her refusal to sign it. (And again – I AM NOT forcing this on her, the ramifications of this are just intellectually interesting to me).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> in asking that, is that a loving act on your part?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Never said it was, only that it would be an act of self-preservation. Don’t I have a right to that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what happens to the children knowing that they were so seemingly thrown away by their own mother?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So let me see… the risk of them finding out that their mother acted selfishly through me taking them away if she violates (again, hypothetically) some post-nuptual agreement is less than say, her coming home pregnant and forcing another child in the family who probably would not look like dad, or her coming home HIV positive and them losing their parents at a young age. What happens to them under THOSE circumstances?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The idea was brought up out of pain and desparation , but would only cause much more pain for all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m sorry weaver, you haven’t convinced me that the above statement is true. I can convincingly argue that a post-nuptual in the fashion I stated PROTECTS me and the children from selfish, dangerous acts.

You seem to have a fundamental or ethical problem with the fact that it borders, or probably crosses, the border of using the children as a bargaining chip. Why? Is not the act of an affair an EXTREME risk to the children? What if the WS doesn’t REALIZE this in the fog? Would not the agreement be another potential anchor for the WS to hang on to if they became weak and temptation raised it’s ugly head? The children ALREADY are at risk – the WS is having an affair. I would argue that the post-nuptual, if anything, would only reinforce that fact to the WS. IF it could penetrate the fog. A big IF.

It seems as if your stance is that “using” the children innately means you are NOT protecting them. I don’t think that is the case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> RAP needs for you to love her unconditionally right now, she needs for you to be her safe place, her protector in her time of need. How much longer you can be this rock, I don't know. But I am hoping as everyone on this board that it will be for as long as it takes for her to beat this demon.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I agree with this statement. But it feels like I am trying to rescue a drowning victim and her struggles are pulling me under as well. Thank God for God for giving us the strength when we need it, but shame on us for not asking for it. I just needed to tell someone, thus “the Sunday Blues.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SerendipT hit it right on I think with her passage from the bible about love.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are talking about the Isaiah 54, I have printed that and put it on my wall.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Open the emotional cage you have put around RAP and set her free, free to come back to you in love and all it's glory.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel I have done this. I feel I have granted her the privilege of my trust several times now to have it abused. At what point do I stop? Back to the issue with the children – your tone (and I am not saying it is wrong) seems to be protect the children, no matter what. But if my son was abusing his curfew and I enforced it because he was at risk of falling into the wrong crowd with drugs, you would say I am doing my job as a father. Change gears, and here is my wife abusing a privilege and if I take steps to correct that poor behavior I suddenly become controlling and oppressive. (I am speaking hypothetically again here). Do I not have the authority to take steps to protect the household as a unit? What good am I if I grant her this freedom and she abuses it making me an emotional basket case? I know MY limits and what I can emotionally take. Is that not protecting the family unit? I mean if I am imposing a boundary out of jealousy, control, or malice, that is one thing. But if I am truly doing it because I think (as the spiritual head of the household) that it is for the good of the family, I would say I BETTER do it. How come it is OK for me to impose such a boundary on my son and not my wife? On the one hand, I am a good dad, on the other, I am an oppressive controlling husband. But I don’t see the difference, it is merely labels. Fundamentally they are the same.

Is it because she is an adult? I would say she is ACTING like a kid –selfishness (almost a definition of an affair), being completely ruled by your emotions, those are things children do. Those are behaviors we seek to correct in them because they are destructive. If I was NOT doing that for my kids, you would be lambasting me for being a poor father. But if I do it for the wife, I am oppressive. (AGAIN – hypothetical here, I am just interested in how you would make this discrimination).

What if I was going out with my drinking buddies 4 nights a week. Coming home drunk, risking my job. My wife would say “Stop it, bad for the family.” Then I don’t stop. She ups the ante by withholding sex, waking me up hungover in the morning, stuff like that to force me to change my poor behavior. You would commend her for protecting the family. What is different here?
How is allowing her free reign to hurt me showing her love? NOT yelling at her is love. NOT judging her is love.

Here is a current issue – she seems to struggle with this contact thing in the evenings. At least that is my interpretation of when it happens. When she has alone time and is not with the kids. I let her go for drives, or go to the gym with her friend. She is doing a marginal job of accountability. By this I mean having her cell phone with her so I can call. Coming home when she says she will be home. Saying she will be gone an hour, then coming home in 2 or 3. She has good reasons for these. It is hard to have the phone on you in the gym. She has been witnessing to this friend about HER marriage troubles (she is very caring) and all that is good. But demons are plaguing me too. I get the explanation and am OK with it, but BEFORE that I have to go through all the pain and worry. Now Sunday night happened and I am EXTREMELY sensitive to this accountability. Is it wrong of me to REQUEST that she not go out at night for some time, so I can get a break? How about if I INSIST that she does not? Is it wrong then?

She is pretty angry over Sunday night and doesn’t want to be around me. I can understand that. It’s not very fair to me, because she made a choice, but I can’t deny her HER feelings. So she wants to go off with this (female) friend but has demonstrated questionable compliance with my accountability requests. She’s not DOING anything wrong, she is just not being considerate of how uncomfortable it is making me. I tell her that one of the reasons I have been hard to be around is she keeps doing things like that. She doesn’t trust that I won’t be hard on her. Is it too much to ask that THIS TIME I don’t budge? I have given her the freedom to do what she needs with reasonable constraints. She “sort of” meets the constraints. All I am asking is that I get a break from this and she is just going to have to TRUST that I won’t be hard on her. There is a causal relationship between my hardness and her behavior. She (understandably) doesn’t see it that way. Is her fog Carte Blanche for her to do it her way only? Further, how ARE we going to grow together again if we are not spending much time with each other?

I try and tell her that a little consideration, understanding, and appreciation would go a LONG WAY to helping ME handle this. I have built my tower on the rock. Sometimes I fail, but it IS on the rock. Just want her to stop chipping at foundation and making me climb down to patch it. At least for a while.

NCW

PS - I echo RAPs sentiment, weaver. You are pretty smart.

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

WOW Dipti, will you adopt me???

RAP, have you seen the other thread i started for you lately. i've been looking for you there. not sure if you are just not seeing it or prefer to not post there. i don't want to give up that idea of the other post unless you directly tell me you don't want to post there. so i am shamelessly getting your attention here now instead.

On the subject of renewed vows, TopRope said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by top rope:
I completely understand your position on the renewed vows.
Personally, I only want to do something of that magnitude when I (me) am feeling ready and actually WANT to do it. I need to "FEEL" it for it to MEAN anything to me personally.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The danger in this statement, as I read and understand it, is the implied permission for RAP to disregard her current marriage vows, because she currently does not "FEEL" it means anything to her personally.

Hogwash. She made a vow before God and Family, and her "old vows" needs to be honored... *IRREGARDLESS OF HER FEELINGS*.

THAT is where she went off track in the first place. Placing "feelings first" above her solem vows.....

FURTHERMORE.... let's assume both these fine people DO renew their vows.... and let's assume NCW is WILLING to resume his vows in spite of the fact that he FEELS hurt and broken at this time .... Isn't it is also a HUGE leap of faith for NCW to re-new vows, one leap that HE is willing to take irregardless of his pain and hurt?

I do not see the value in giving permission to RAP to put her feelings above her vows unless we are also going to give NCW permission to put his feelings above his vows.

RAP does NOT get a "pass" on this based on her feelings, unless you are willing to give NCW the same "pass".... in my opinion.

Pep

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

NCW: Couple of passing comments from all the posts I've read here this morning.

You've been a big help to many on this board. Do you think maybe Satan sees you as a bigger threat than most (since the spirit seems to 'flow' through your writings better)? This may be Satan's way of trying to break you, by going through RAP. He's sees that your foundation is strong (maybe even unbreakable), but if he can attack your W, he may be able to break you?

Several posts back you mentioned about RAP and you seeing things differently. Basically, saying your interpretation of the same picture is different. I know you've been working on yourself, trying to make yourself a better person. But one question, if you keep doing the same thing and getting the same result, should you continue to keep doing this thing? The "thing" in this case is conversation/communication between you and RAP. I don't know how to tell you to change it, just that something needs help in this area.

Anger? From what I've 'seen' in your communications, I would term it frustration. However, there is another thing that 'jumps' out at me from your posts. I'm not sure how to pose it so that you don't take it as a 2x4, so here it is. You have this confidence about you. And that is not necessarily a bad thing, but I believe that it can come across as an attitude. Attitudes can be many things, good or bad, happy or angry. I think RAP may be interpreting your frustration/attitude as anger. Hence, her inability to get past this and work on you two.

I pray that the Lord's Will, will be done (and as part of that your M is recovered).

RH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> RH – Kind of puts a neat spin on PHI 4:13, don’tcha think? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(Didn't mean to miss this, but there was a lot to ketchup on.)

Yes, it does.

Quote: NCWalker wrote: “I have not seen, or been able to back up with the Word, what MB calls plan B.”

Pardon me if I jump in here for a minute. One minute, then I’ll jump back out. NCW, this is an interesting statement of yours. I don’t think I could Plan B either. It’s just not in me. I would already have to have an overdrawn LBank. But I did try to find a Christian moral justification for Plan B.

Now, the following is not mine, I found it at: http://www.jba.gr/Articles/jba2003_1.htm

Before you read further, in the interest of full disclosure. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I am still a practicing Catholic, Mass every week, Holy Days and regular sacraments. My faith is a living part of my life. My wife’s A reinforced this (after a tremendous shake to its foundation). As a typical Catholic I am not one to argue religion much. Never have. So please read this as just an interesting data point I found while also wondering about scriptural justification, if any, behind Plan B. (It also resonated a little with me as an engineer and Physicist).
------
We find this passage in Luke 17:3-4. There we read: "If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you saying, "I repent", you shall forgive him."

There are some "ifs" in this passage. Being in the computer industry I know very well what an if statement means in a program. It means that what follows the if statement applies only if what is included in the "if statement" is fulfilled. In the first sentence of the above we have two if statements.

IF your brother sin against you
THEN you rebuke him
IF (after you rebuke him) he repents
THEN you forgive him

This is the turn the Lord has set. Many people desire to be forgiven without repenting. Many others yet, do not forgive somebody for a sin for which however they have never rebuked him! Thus they break the above simple order the lord has set. .

How to be open to a person that intimidates and has not repented? No wonder that this person will at the end be alone. But again the others as brothers and sisters, the church herself, what do they do? Have they confronted this person? The Word does not ask you to forgive somebody that has not repented! What He asks you and the church to do is TO REBUKE HIM!!! Have you done it? Has the church as the body of believers done it? And again here we don't speak for whatever YOU may have in your mind as sin, but for what the WORD defines as sin.

Here is what is said in Matthew 18:15-17: "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector"

THIS IS THE ORDER OF GOD! Why do we try to do it differently? Why do we think that it is better that we are silent to the evil, the abuse, the sin that is done before our very eyes!! In our very churches! When will we hear the voice of the Lord instead of the voices of the world that says, "Everybody can do whatever he wants." This is what our Lord has said (in the form of program language, it is so precise!):

IF your brother sins
Rebuke him, tell him his fault
If he repents OK.
ELSE
Take with you two or three witness
IF he does not hear them
THEN Tell it to the church
IF he does not hear the church
THEN Let him be to you as a heathen and tax collector
------

If I allow rebuke to include lovingly confront (including Plan A), limited exposure for witnesses, wider exposure for church, perhaps I can also include Plan B for treat as a heathen and tax collector?

Hope I’m not pouring gasoline on the fire.

T

NC: I would be an utter fool to get into a spiritual debate with you. And if some of the things I pointed out did not resonate with you, maybe the groove I was in last night while I prayed and typed was not as in "tune" with the Spirit as I was guessing it to be. Because I have hardly gone around on the site spouting off spiritual advice (sheesh...as Paul said, But if I could know Him more...and if PAUL was lamenting his current state of Christian immaturity, I would be beyond arrogant to think I had more wisdom on these things than he).

Some of the points I had tried to make were missed, but, it is not a biggie.

Just one more thing I wanted to leave with you that I think is an important distinction, especially since you have referenced the "interpretation" disconnect several times in your response.

If I were to poll two people and ask them what their number one goal was, and let's say they aswered "To be successful," would it mean they were going for the same thing?

I would say no.

Because I would have to ask "OK, but, what needs to happen for YOU to feel successful?"

Person #1 may say, I need to have net assets over 1 billion dollars, a perfect family, zero percent body fat, etc.

Person #2 may say, I am successful if I make someone smile today.

It is obvious which person would attain their goal, and which person would have more peace.

It is a overly dramatic example, and please, if you already know this, forgive the obvious pointer, BUT...

I think it is important during this marital rebuilding time, IMVHO, to take Harley's EN questionairre one step futher.

If someone says that conversation was their number one need, it is not enough to assume that the way I WOULD LIKE TO CONVERSE is going to be enough to meet their needs. What kind of conversation DOES MY PARTNER NEED in order to get that need met.

Kinda like the "Platinum Rule" that is so popular in corporate, PC america right now... Treat others as THEY would like to be treated.

NC, you currently, above all else, need (again, forgive me if I am misinterpreting, putting words in your mouth, etc) a show of appreciation and remorse from RAP (you outlined, if I understand correctly, that this would be a big way to show you love right now). And you have been quite clear to RAP about WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN in order for you to feel appreciated, and like RAP is truly regretful of her actions.

RAP tells you she needs less anger and condemnation from you. You say, BUT I am NOT angry, so...good...we are on the same page. Perhaps you need to know WHAT RAP NEEDS TO HAPPEN in order for her to feel like you are displaying less anger toward her.

And on the subject of condemnation, I wonder if RAP is feeling that in response to your request for her to be more contrite in spirit about the A...and it is hard not to feel really really judged inside when you are hearing your spouse say, you should be more broken hearted for what you have done, you bad person you, and more contrite in spirit, you big fat sinner you, and look what I am doing by even being willing to take you back, etc (by the way, before you get defensive, that would probably be MY internal dialogue's response to that kind of request...right or wrong...not saying that is RAP's, or what you are intending to accomplish with your request). Just sharing that I can see why that feels like a judgement...that would probably be my interpretation (again, not sure if that is a good thing to admit, etc).

RAP: Thanks for the nice words.

Prayers to you both...and I will butt out now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

FL: Not sure if I am someone worthy of "adopting" anyone, but, I think an awful lot of you too, and am VERY in awe with your strength, bravery, and willingness to obey God now in your life. It will not be easy, but you will rewarded in this life and the next...claim that truth for yourself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thos,

That was pretty good. I was raised Roman Catholic too.

DipiT,

Sorry if I came on too strong. You probably could get in a debate with me. And do well. Both the post I commented on and the last one HAVE struck some chords in me.

There is a ton I do not understand about how a woman "sees" things. I and face those repurcussions. Both you and weaver have been a blessing in this. The Spirit IS working in you.

Guess I need to learn to tell you I appreciate it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I really do.

NCW

DipiT,

PLEASE do not butt out. At least because I am getting a tremendous amount out of your posts. You seem to know how I am thinking. It is hard to explain, but I appreciate it much. I am having a hard time with a few joking comments made on another thread that felt directed towards things Mark has complained about on this thread. Too sensitive, yes. But I do not feel well-represented.

When it comes to sharing every little piece of info about me (whether perceived by NCW or real) I feel like I have been set completely out there where, if I don't clarify, it just always looks to be the exact truth. See, that doesn't make sense!

Anyway, I am truly tired of feeling exposed (not all because of my actions...some because of NCW's own feelings or perceptions of what he thinks I am thinking, etc), and got my feelings hurt.

Thanks for the support. You are a great girl DipiT. Thanks especially because you are the BS and I know it must be hard to reach out to someone that is a FWS sometimes.

Pam

pepperband,

Its unfortunate that you so totally misinterpreted my meaning in the quote you took out.
Oh well, it happens. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

That's the ONE frustrating thing to me about this particular medium.
Some things are tricker then others to have others "get it".

Hopefully Rap did (since this is whom it was intended for).
Perhaps I'll go back to "observer" mode, since Rap is feeling a bit overwhelmed at the moment.

I'll Keep pulling for you guys!

Top Rope,

Please do not go to "observer" mode. Your posts are some of the MOST influential on me. Even when they carry 2x4s in them.

I did understand what you meant to say with the vows. You got what I was thinking. It is important, just important enough to me that I want to wait till I don't "feel" fake.

By the way, I really do appreciate the BS reaching out as I have said before. It has been a really hard forum to air out SO MUCH. Thanks.

PAM

NCW,

This thread has been bothering me for days. Not because there aren't excellent ideas, or persuasive agruements, but deep down I have this feeling that no matter how well justified, there is a flaw in your thinking or at least an inconsistency as I see it.

I think today I can state what bothers me and I admit it bothers me because of my own view of things so if one is looking for a strong logical backing I will NOT provide it. It is based more on experience and what I would do if I were in RAP's situation.

Your insistence on a post-nup has bothered me, not because it is basically wrong, it is after all your position to protect yourself. I can understand this.

What bothers me is it seems at odds with what you state your goals are and how it would be written. How are you going to define an affair, what level of proof are you going to require? What if she denies she is in or had an affair? What if it is an EA? How are these issues to be determined?

But, more importantly if someone including my W ever threatened to remove my children and the best way to keep them in my life for sure was divorce, I would divorce her in a minute. Just the threat would send me to the lawyer and the marriage would be over. RAP's affair does NOT terminate her role as a mother in their lives. If she were doing drugs and very dangerous things...YES. But, loving another man is NOT ground for removing the mother from the children. It is NOT ground for removing a father from their children if he has an affair.

My basic problem NCW is that you are pushing her into a corner she cannot get out of, and therefore if it were me, I would fight and the first stop would be the divorce lawyer. Now you claim you don't want a divorce. You claim you love your W. You claim you want to keep your family together. Yet, the action you seek to "protect" you and your children, is likely to accomplish the opposite.

I don't see the "LOGIC" in that.

Now I know in her state you just might be able to get her to do this, but if she ever gets her feet back on the ground she will resent this hammer over her head and she will resent you. And this resentment is NOT about her wanting another affair, it is that you hold something over her. The resentment alone will eventually end your marriage in fact if not officially.

Again you don't get what you want, you just get what you forced. I don't see the "love" or the "logic" of that either.

One sided agreements only work as long as there is strong leverage. But your leverage is growing up and leaving, and frankly her love for you will NOT be strong enough leverage to keep her there when the kids leave because this sort of situation erodes love.

NCW I like what I know about you. I realize you are hurt and are looking for stability in this, but I just don't see a "forced" agreement no matter how legal solving your problem. For your marriage to work, RAP must step up because she wants to. She must do the work to fullfill her vows. She must find the love for you she lost. AND you must give her time to do this OR decide time is up and move on. You both have choices and I think it is time some started to be made.

You may be able to skin her alive legally with this post-nup, but I don't think you will accomplish what you want and I KNOW your children will be hurt. This is what makes divorce, affairs, betrayal so bad when children are involved. The children get to watch you skin her alive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

As for Biblical support for plan B, I won't get into a verse quoting contest with you, but I would like to draw your attention to the story of the the Prodigal Son. The father did NOT follow the son into sin nor did he keep him around the home. He let him go with no contact, just as plan B calls for, and he welcomed him home with open arms when the son stopped sinning.

Works for me. I don't know if it works for you.

I do hope something I have said is of use to you.

God Bless,

JL

Pam, i'm hoping you will check in the RAP topic. Please go read there and post your email address to me. love to you, Karen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong> My basic problem NCW is that you are pushing her into a corner she cannot get out of, and therefore if it were me, I would fight and the first stop would be the divorce lawyer. Now you claim you don't want a divorce. You claim you love your W. You claim you want to keep your family together. Yet, the action you seek to "protect" you and your children, is likely to accomplish the opposite.

I don't see the "LOGIC" in that.

You both have choices and I think it is time some started to be made.

You may be able to skin her alive legally with this post-nup, but I don't think you will accomplish what you want and I KNOW your children will be hurt. This is what makes divorce, affairs, betrayal so bad when children are involved. The children get to watch you skin her alive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

As for Biblical support for plan B, I won't get into a verse quoting contest with you, but I would like to draw your attention to the story of the the Prodigal Son. The father did NOT follow the son into sin nor did he keep him around the home. He let him go with no contact, just as plan B calls for, and he welcomed him home with open arms when the son stopped sinning.

Works for me. I don't know if it works for you.

I do hope something I have said is of use to you.

God Bless,

JL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL- APPLAUSE!

Ok, I'm not going to to write a book here but I do have some insight into some of the things RAP is experiencing.

First off, Mark, whatever made you think you could stop Plan A just because you thought you were in recovery? I've read back through your posts...I see a man who loves his wife VERY much but feels like he must be highly proactive and in control of this recovery. I think you feel like you have to DRIVE this recovery because it's your responsibility as the spiritual head of your house. The only thing you're driving is your marriage...right into the ground. You appear controlling and demanding. Had my wife behaved like you, I doubt we'd still be married now. You are asking RAP for things that she's not ready to give. I also think the post-nup was a really bad idea.

As the Spiritual Head, it's your job to HELP her through this sickness (it is an emotional sickness). Your behaviors serve to rub her nose in what she's done. I know that's not your intent, but you are doing it unintentionally. If she had broken a leg, would you expect her to be running a marathon with you before it had completely healed?

3 months since last real contact? And she still has to see him every day at school? At three months after my last real contact I was driving circles around town trying to decide what I wanted. I would follow cars like the OW's just to get a glimpse. It was pathetic. I hated myself for it.

When I heard the OW was dating again (6 mo post d-day), it felt like someone stabbed me. I didn't WANT to feel that way, but I did. I was an emotional mess for a week. My wife gave me space to deal with it.

To RAP: Here is where I go a bit non-MB. There are some parts of this struggle you are having that you'll need to manage internally or with a good therapist. You're using NCW as your therapist right now and that's a bit much to expect from him. You are broken and he can't fix you. In IC, I was able to work through my feelings for the OW. We pulled them all out and dissected them. I came to understand the nature of my addiction/obsession. Now, for a little hard advice. YOU MUST DECIDE how you are going to ACT. You have all control over this. You can choose to start ACTING like the good wife and mother you aspire to be even if you don't feel it. This is what your family needs from you. The pain of withdrawal is intense...it's hard not to be self centered and self absorbed while you're going through it...but you can do it.

I understand about the vows. My wife pushed me to buy her a very expensive anniversary ring soon after d-day. I knew what she wanted it to represent - sort of like new vows. I passed out in the jewelry store bathroom from anxiety. I took the plunge and did it anyways, but the pressure was almost unbearable.

RAP, you know there is no relationship with the OM. So you're left with only one choice. Do you want to rebuild your life with or without NCW? Contrary to what many here will advise, I'd encourage you to think carefully about this. The answer's not always obvious.

Low

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>