WAT said, in another thread:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Think of it this way. You're angry and resentful that she could have hurt you the way she did. Perhaps if you identify YOUR contributions to the mess, you may find the humility to accept some of the responsibility. This, in turn, may lessen your anger towards her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NCW,

I think this is somewhat appropriate to you as well. And not that you're angry, but have you identified your part that contributed to the state of your M? Has RAP seen your humility? Keep working, your close to that breakthrough that many find on here.

RH

Some more comments from NCW:

(Thanks for the input)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Recovering H:<strong> Do you think maybe Satan sees you as a bigger threat than most (since the spirit seems to 'flow' through your writings better)? This may be Satan's way of trying to break you, by going through RAP. He's sees that your foundation is strong (maybe even unbreakable), but if he can attack your W, he may be able to break you?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is DEFINITELY involved. He hates marriages. But to comment on the intent being to get at me through her because of me helping here? No. RAP and I had problems BEFORE the A. We BOTH were doing bad things to each other. Let me rephrase, because we weren’t BAD, it was selfishness, pure and simple. We BOTH had areas where we chose our own comfort over honoring each other with our actions. All this BEFORE I started helping people. The A has just been this big bomb dropped on a rocky road. Kind of makes you realize the road is bumpy. So trying to get over the A AND deal with prior issues is tough. Of course, we all know that.

RAPs “foundation” is as strong as mine. At least. My feeling is she just fell off it. It’s scary to do wrong and face God and husband. I can understand that. But she is getting back on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just Learning:<strong> Your insistence on a post-nup has bothered me, not because it is basically wrong, it is after all your position to protect yourself. I can understand this.

What bothers me is it seems at odds with what you state your goals are and how it would be written.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course, you are right. Who wants a wife forced into loving you? I don’t. And I DO need to clarify something. My back-and-forth with weaver was more because the issue was intellectually stimulating. Where ARE the boundaries in a situation like that? I wasn’t looking for someone to say “great idea,” frankly, I wasn’t expecting it.

Another issue to clarify: I AM NOT INSISTING ON THIS. I AM NOT!!!! After my 4th of July troubles, I said to myself that we (RAP and I) aren’t getting anywhere. We were seeing a MC at the time. But we were NOT IMPLEMENTING any of Harley’s principles for strengthening our marriage. The Four Rules, POJA, anything. Which I felt led to the July betrayal. Maybe I was wrong. So I wrote a Recovery Plan for us and sent RAP a copy and sent our MC a copy. It had a lot of good things in it and the intent was to say “Here is what I think we need to do, let’s POJA this and strip out what makes sense.” Her, me and the MCs looking at it and coming up with something. This post-nup thing was a small part of what the MCs said was a good plan. And it probably wasn’t a good idea. I mean, it accomplished protecting me from another betrayal, but it was a little much.

Fast forward to Sunday night… another (non-physical) betrayal and avoidance of truth on something she KNEW would kill me. It got the better of me. BANG – I’m angry (she is fighting back, not apologizing), BANG – I now wanted to lash, BANG – “I should have made you sign that thing!!” came out of my mouth. (Probably should have typed it in capitals).

Haven’t said it since. Haven’t EVER insisted she do it. The only thing I insisted on was that we COME UP WITH SOMETHING so I can feel at least we are working on the marriage. I FEEL like we are sitting in neutral and tolerating each other. Sorry. I’m not willing to do that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just Learning:<strong> As for Biblical support for plan B, I won't get into a verse quoting contest with you, but I would like to draw your attention to the story of the the Prodigal Son. The father did NOT follow the son into sin nor did he keep him around the home. He let him go with no contact, just as plan B calls for, and he welcomed him home with open arms when the son stopped sinning.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good point. My counter? The prodigal son was essentially hurting himself. I mean I am sure what he did hurt his father’s feelings or broke his heart, but he only RISKED himself. A spouse who enters into an A is risking a whole lot more. Their own health and life, but also that of their FS and children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LowOrbit:<strong> First off, Mark, whatever made you think you could stop Plan A just because you thought you were in recovery? I've read back through your posts...I see a man who loves his wife VERY much but feels like he must be highly proactive and in control of this recovery.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Low – I don’t think I HAVE stopped plan A. I mean, I flub it with LBs and DRs, but MOST of that has occurred AFTER she breaks NC. Then I screw my head back on and go back to Plan A. I have been doing essentially that since March. Again, not perfectly but I am reasonably conscious of the times I do. RAP has looked at me when I LB and said I’m not plan Aing. Probably true at the time. But when I honestly reflect, I am pleased with my efforts.

Where are my failings? I will DR or LB her on “normal” marriage mistakes. Like forgetting to let me know that a kid has to be somewhere and calling me at work and needing me to get the kid without much notice. That kind of stuff. And not continual.

I also let my unmet needs get away from me. But that is HARD to do. Sometimes when I need some affection and come give her a hug and she “pulls away” I kind of go “arrggh” with the body language, or tell her that stuff like that hurts. Not continuously, but I do it.

Last (and I am just learning this) I think I am telling HER how I feel too much. (And please don’t get the idea that I tell her EVERY TIME I have a feeling). I thought it would be good for her to know what I am thinking. In the spirit of radical honesty and in the spirit of stopping misinterpretations. I mean, if you ASSUME something about someone and act poorly when you could have asked and avoided a bad situation, that’s a good thing. At least the concept is good enough that it has been explored in two of the relationship books I have read so far. But the problem is when I say a “when you do X I think Y and it makes me feel Z” statement I think she thinks I am judging her – implying that I think she is being a cr@ppy wife. This realization actually just clicked with me this Monday. So I am cutting all that out.

I dunno low. Quitting plan A? I don’t think I did/have. Messed it up sometimes, to be sure. But I have never compared my execution to anyone else’s either. Kind of a strong statement when you are not watching the two of us day to day.

As far as controlling goes, I have increased my controlling from when I first arrived at home. But I was doing none then. And I got betrayals for it. So yes, the “controlling” has increased some. But I would say with inconsideration for my boundaries. She asks before she goes out late with a friend. I ask her to have her cell phone with her so I can call her when I am nervous. And I get on her about it when she does not. Not mean, or harsh, but I don’t back off on that one. The affair is over, right? She SHOULD be taking steps to win my trust back. When she crosses one of my healthy boundaries, do I not call her on it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LowOrbit:<strong> If she had broken a leg, would you expect her to be running a marathon with you before it had completely healed?[QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">C’mon low. That’s silly for two reasons. One is that I am frequently posting to people to watch the expectations, so you know better. Two is that the analogy barely represents what happened. More like this:

If she had a personal goal of running a marathon (having healthy marriage) and she broke her leg by being reckless on a skateboard (A) and that set her goal back, would you call her on it if she picked up the skateboard before the leg healed?

Yeah. I would.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LowOrbit:[QB]I understand about the vows. My wife pushed me…</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again. I have NOT pushed. I flung out the post-nup in a moment of anger and have not mentioned it since. We did discuss the vows from my recovery plan once. I said it would be important to me and felt it would be important to the kids. She said she couldn’t do it. I dropped it. No POJA. Because we didn’t come to an agreement. Unless me dropping it is an agreement.

---------

Look. I had a painful walk through history from all of my old posts last night. Know what I saw?

- Her making a promise
- Her breaking a promise
- Me getting angry
- Me forgiving her
- Me CHOOSING to act like a Godly husband out of obedience to God and hope for what we could become (plan A) with occasional mistakes in that execution.
- My feelings of love for her strengthening, because I believe, I was sowing actions of love TOWARDS her and reaping feelings of love FOR her.

Over and over again.

So here I sit. That model above is biblical. Obedience is better than sacrifice. Turn your mind and your heart will follow. And I am confused. Frankly because I don’t see why it would not work for her.

Know why she had an A? It wasn’t because she hated me, it was because she didn’t GUARD HER HEART. So this OM came in and feelings for him developed. She GAVE her heart with a choice and the feelings for him followed. If she had GUARDED her heart with a choice, the feelings would not have developed. Again. A biblical principle.

So if she wants feelings for me to develop, she should GIVE ME her heart and stop GUARDING her heart. I got a little ticked off Sunday because that’s what I have been doing for her. And she contacted him again. And it made me mad.

It’s not brain surgery. The answers are in the Book. To me, it’s pretty clear what needs to happen to recover the marriage.

Not saying it’s easy. It wasn’t for me when I did it for her. It takes time and patience from both. But I need a little mercy. My patience is wearing thin when she does something like attempt to contact the OM and hide it from me, or aspects about it.

I shared this with her in a letter that she has posted. If I am wrong about this, let me know.

NCW

”I should have made you sign that thing!!” came out of my mouth. (Probably should have typed it in capitals).

I may be wrong, quite possibly. But I thought you said that I must sign the post-nup Sunday night. I thought for sure you brought it up a couple of times. You can correct me, but that is what I was talking about.

Low – I don’t think I HAVE stopped plan A. I mean, I flub it with LBs and DRs, but MOST of that has occurred AFTER she breaks NC.

I am learning that this all is subject to our own perception, but I do not agree with this statement. I don’t think plan A can be very easy at all. But I would say I “feel” more like what Low describes. I just don’t really know, ya know.

I think I must stop this posting, etc.

For a number of reasons. Not that you are lying Mark, but I really don’t understand where you are able to say some things.

You have demanded I sign the post-nup. Maybe in anger, but more than once.

You have brought up the vows numerous times and said that we should call it quits if I can’t do it now.

IMHO, you do hold your expectations over my head. I am sounding cruel to everyone I am sure, but it is so hard to have you say these things, and I sit here and don’t understand what I am reading. Maybe we do just miscommunicate consistently. I am fighting back when it comes to what you post, and I am not real fond of how I feel about myself in doing it. I just want the truth (whatever it is) to be the truth.

Oh, about the wedding ring….I have some really hurt feelings over that. The jokes about it. Yeah, I need to get over it. This is a flawed place to communicate, and I can see why the whole thing looks silly. But I did not lie. Mark does not feel comfy with money now. Hence, no sizing of the ring. Did not lie. Do not really care to feel scrutinized over it. Looking at what I said my reasons for not wearing the ring were, I realize it could be made fun of. Oh well. I still spoke the truth. I honestly can’t do it any better. I am a little angry. I am truly sorry to show it. I don’t know of any couple here that has aired out all their private places (often without approval) in front of all. Maybe I am just not so comfy with it.

I am not proud of my sins or my personal shortcomings. Somehow (probably totally unintentionally) I feel continually hurt over Mark’s postings here. A little too much info sometimes. He needs the support. I can’t stand up under the scrutiny. Yea, maybe it all comes back to my choices. But I will change, just more in private maybe.


I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone.
RAP

RAP

I am with friends this weekend and cannot stay on computer long, but this post of yours just damn near broke my heart. It seems you are hurting and have no words to verbalize it, no way to compartmentalize it. Your sadness really bothers me and I don't even know you. Yes your life may seem easier outwardly than some others, however pain cannot be measured, and your reality is all you know so your pain hurts just as much as any other persons.

NCW has been shaken badly by your affair, his world has been turned upside down, he is questioning all that he has ever believed. That is easy to see.

However he knows why all is wrong in his world and with him, you had an affair.

You cannot name what is wrong, you had the affair and your world is badly shaken, but what can you say. You cannot say NCW had an affair and this is why I feel this way.

You hang in there RAP, things have a way of working themselves out. The answers have a way of coming, whether we want them or not.

If you can, try to read "Care of the Soul" by Thomas Moore. It is very insightful into addictions as symtoms of a troubled soul. And he offers some very good suggestions for inner soul work. I am also reading three classics by John Eldridge (the author of the book pep has going right now) and they are incredible. Check them out too if you can.

Hang tough!

Weaver

Bless you RAP, you are every bit the great lady that NCW is the great man.

RAP, I must echo what Weaver said. It also concerns me that you are always having to apologize for your reactions to NCs demands and for defending yourself against what you consider slanted posts. A person who posts that they came to you on their knees in humility and apology while in actually pounding their fists into the place where you lay is not representing the entire truth. You don't have to apologize for giving the parts he convieniently left out!

I can't even begin to imagine how difficult is must be to be married to someone who always has to be right, someone who actually *enjoys* debate/arguing for the sake of debating/argument. That quality is social death BTW, unless you hang with others who enjoy the same. It is definite marital death, and I for one, COMPLETELY understand your tendency to shut down.

NC, you sometimes conceed to those who correct you on the board but it appears that you rarely, if ever conceed to RAP. She has said before that you know how to make yourself look good on paper and SHE is the one who lives with you. If you are in reality, "an emperor with no clothes" then it is time for you to figure out how to get some. IC would be a good first step.

There is a HUGE difference between intellectual intelligence and emotional and or social intelligence. It is in the latter that you seem to be lagging. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Perhaps in IC you would be held more accountable for your behaviors than you are to this board. I do believe you need to have accountablility to someone in real life because you are steamrollering over your wife on a consistent basis and she cannot defend herself against you. (YET!)

RAP, I hope that you do continue to post here especially when you need to refute NC. You need PRACTICE in standing up for yourself. He does not have the unilateral support of the board when his conclusions are ill advised. Example: The fact that his brain even conjured up that sadistic postnup is appalling and he got roundly called on it. But YOU are the one who needs to be able to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH at some point. (Yes NC, I know, I know that you have posted that you have changed your mind ect. but come on, that was REALLY BAD)

And yes so you RAP, had an A and you probably came off initially as one of the most willful WS on this board in years but perhaps this was the ONLY card you have ever had over NC. There seems to be such an imbalance in your marriage. Please consider going back into IC to get yourself squared away. You need to get stronger as a PERSON. Apologize for what you need to but do not automaticaly take on NCs accusations as the gospel truth about who you really are.

Stick to doing the right thing, No Contact being number one and you will have little or nothing (major) further to apologize for regarding the A. What's done is done. You cannot pay the price for this forever and ever even though he seems bent on making you, so if you are in the clear then stand up for yourself. You have that right. Stop viewing yourself as a complete disaster, okay?

NCW you need to do the IC also to get over this mess. I am concerned with the continued lack of humility in your posts. It is a NO BRAINER to blame the WS but you've been there, done that in spades. Now it is time to take a good hard look at YOURSELF and how you are consistently undermining your wife and by proxy your marriage.

You asked for some honest feedback a while back and then disappeared for a while. I had hoped that you considered what was said and ACTED to change the behaviors. Being teachable is a very important quality especially in areas where you are not familiar, such as this.

You seem to have entirely too much invested in being right all the time NCW (even when you backpedal) and it's high time you looked at how much damage YOU have done to your marriage with this line of thinking. Your reaction to JL's Prodigal Son reference is an prime example of how you can miss the heart of the entire message by picking it apart! Are you quite sure you've forgiven RAP? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am sorry that I am not as diplomatic in this post as JL and Low Orbit (PLEASE REREAD THOSE POSTS) but I am saying the very same thing in plain English. If you guys want to save this marriage you BOTH have to change your behaviors. Go to IC, go to MC, what you are doing right now is NOT WORKING.

It would be awesome to see you succeed but it won't happen until some MAJOR changes in the way you interreact are made. It is entirely possible that it is RAP who needs to Plan B you NCW, it may be what it takes to preserve the love she has left for you. Don't let it get down to that, make some phone calls, get the additional help you both need in real life. KB

Why so defensive, NCW?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As far as controlling goes, I have increased my controlling from when I first arrived at home. But I was doing none then. And I got betrayals for it. So yes, the “controlling” has increased some. But I would say with inconsideration for my boundaries. She asks before she goes out late with a friend. I ask her to have her cell phone with her so I can call her when I am nervous. And I get on her about it when she does not. Not mean, or harsh, but I don’t back off on that one. The affair is over, right? She SHOULD be taking steps to win my trust back. When she crosses one of my healthy boundaries, do I not call her on it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If your exchanges go as you've described them here, then YES, you are being controlling. The ONLY thing that you should really being doing in this situation is asking for a certain behavior, then explaining how you feel when it doesn't happen. You can explain the emotional consequences to her. You CANNOT, however, "get on her" or "call her on it" without lovebusting.
I have often seen the excuse of having "boundaries" used to justify controlling behavior. RAP is a grown woman. She may not always be acting like one, but she is one nonetheless. Being a spiritual head of the home doesn't mean that you become patriarchical with your wife. I had to learn this lesson early in our marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again. I have NOT pushed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a difference in perception. YOU don't think you have pushed, but by making to very clear to her that you want this to happen for recovery creates an expectation in RAP's mind that "I have to do this for him to heal". If she is not ready to say those vows again, it equates to her not wanting you to heal. Do you see the confusion and possibly self imposed pressure to comply with your request? It feels like "pushing".

I wanted to add earlier...I'm seeing a lot of talk about "tough love". While Dobson's theories have some merit, application of "tough love" is a very tricky thing. I fear that you are trying to "get tough" with someone (RAP) who lacks the strength to withstand your "toughness" at this point. She may wither and withdraw from you.

Please soften your heart, NCW. Encourage RAP to get into IC that can help her deal with her turmoil. As you've said, maybe your being a bit too transparent as well.

RAP hates where she is. She's still being driven by obsession and compulsion that can only be lessened with time. It goes quicker with good IC. I waited way to long and hung on to the affair fantasy for almost 18 months. Don't let her go that long.

Best wishes, Low

knewbetter you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> RAP, I hope that you do continue to post here especially when you need to refute NC. You need PRACTICE in standing up for yourself. He does not have the unilateral support of the board when his conclusions are ill advised. Example: The fact that his brain even conjured up that sadistic postnup is appalling and he got roundly called on it. But YOU are the one who needs to be able to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH at some point. (Yes NC, I know, I know that you have posted that you have changed your mind ect. but come on, that was REALLY BAD) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You hit on something here. I don't think it's that RAP never stands up for herself, but it is how she stands up for herself. Then she reaches a point, feels defeated and withdraws. I'm going to venture a guess here, that both NCW and RAP "feel" like they lost the argument. This is what is known as LOSE/LOSE. NCW, I'm sure you are familar with WIN/WIN negotiating in your job at work. If you can get back to a counselor, this is something you need to bring up. You both need to learn to "fight fair."

NCW, you are extremely frustrated. And you've been taking quite the beating on the postnup thing. Just to let you know that you aren't alone. I too looked into the postnup thing (basically where I got the kids). While at the time, I looked at it as a manner of protecting myself, it was really just a tool to hurt my wife. I'm glad I never pushed it, as I'm sure you are too.

knewbetter also said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> NCW you need to do the IC also to get over this mess. I am concerned with the continued lack of humility in your posts. It is a NO BRAINER to blame the WS but you've been there, done that in spades. Now it is time to take a good hard look at YOURSELF and how you are consistently undermining your wife and by proxy your marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This has been stated several times here today. And NCW, while you may "feel" humble. I believe it is your humility before God. You need to humble yourself before RAP. She doesn't feel it.

So there we are back to feelings. Ok, RAP, this is a two way street. You are both at the opposite ends, you need to meet somewhere in the middle. If you both keep going the way you are, you will never meet as you are either walking away from each other or both walking in the same direction but at different points in time. RAP you need to show some grace to NCW (rub his shoulders, give him a peck goodbye, smile at him, something small). And NCW, you need to change your attitude. What's that old saying, "if you keep doing the same thing and expecting different results, you're a fool." (I don't think you are one, but you may be acting like one.)

Ok, done with the 2x4s. I predict an excellent weekend for you two. Let us know Monday, after you've had a great one.

Love,
R

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Recovering H:
I think this is somewhat appropriate to you as well. And not that you're angry, but have you identified your part that contributed to the state of your M? Has RAP seen your humility?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe so. I mean she and the MCs have told me things I should work on and I am. Obviously, nothing changes overnight but I feel I am making progress. Yes. I have also been humble towards her when I have been wrong. Part of my initial post on this thread was too personal for her comfort. She called me on it. I was humble about it, and apologized. Humility is something we need to continually chase. And I do. My problem is more of control.

- - - - - - - -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">runawaypot:
”I should have made you sign that thing!!” came out of my mouth. (Probably should have typed it in capitals).

I may be wrong, quite possibly. But I thought you said that I must sign the post-nup Sunday night. I thought for sure you brought it up a couple of times. You can correct me, but that is what I was talking about.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. No corrections. I did say it Sunday night. Look at my post again please. Copied below.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ncwalker:
Fast forward to Sunday night… another (non-physical) betrayal and avoidance of truth on something she KNEW would kill me. It got the better of me. BANG – I’m angry (she is fighting back, not apologizing), BANG – I now wanted to lash, BANG – “I should have made you sign that thing!!” came out of my mouth. (Probably should have typed it in capitals).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">- - - - - - -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">runawaypot:
You have brought up the vows numerous times and said that we should call it quits if I can’t do it now.

IMHO, you do hold your expectations over my head. I am sounding cruel to everyone I am sure, but it is so hard to have you say these things, and I sit here and don’t understand what I am reading. Maybe we do just miscommunicate consistently. I am fighting back when it comes to what you post, and I am not real fond of how I feel about myself in doing it. I just want the truth (whatever it is) to be the truth.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We discussed that part of the plan on and off for a few days. Sometimes it was heated, but I don’t really remember either of us being really angry about it. I also don’t remember us coming to an agreement on it at all. I just backed off because it was frustrating. You were frustrated too. At the end of the day, you got what you wanted. We did not do it.

I will ask again. What SHOULD we be doing to recover the marriage? And, how am I supposed to feel a comfort level that you want to? That you won’t hurt me like that again? You have said “I promise” before. I don’t know. I guess it is an unfair thing to ask. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

- - - - - - -

To All:

It’s funny. Whenever I do something wrong or make an unforeseen mistake at work, my boss wants some idea of what I am going to do to correct the issue and what steps I am going to take so that it does not happen again.

Whenever someone in society violates some civil ordinance, like too many speeding tickets, or whatever. A judge levies a fine or perhaps community service to ensure it does not happen again. A gesture from the offender to the community that the message has been gotten.

Whenever one of my kids wrongs another one, I as a parent explain to the child what was wrong. He typically has to apologize to the other. Or even make it up to him. Like help me fix or repair what was broken, something like that. We raise our kids with the expectation that if a wrong is done, steps are taken to make it right.

If we go to a restaurant and have bad service, the manager will typically give you a free dessert, or a discount, or perhaps a free meal in order to make it right.

If you make a purchase of something that turns out to be faulty you can typically take it back for refund or replacement and not get any flak over it. Even a large purchase, like an automobile.

All these instances. I could go on. But that is never discussed here. On this board. What about an affair makes the offense so different? What am I missing? I thought that was called making amends.

After reading the above, I came back in to edit it (in bold, here). The difference is all those things above are an attempt to make things fair or just. And as I myself have said it before, no guarantees that this (A recovery) will be fair. And there is definitely nothing just about it. It all seems to be about feelings. NCW
- - - - - -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">weaver:
However he knows why all is wrong in his world and with him, you had an affair.
~~~~~~~
Bless you RAP, you are every bit the great lady that NCW is the great man.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To the first comment, no, that is not it at all. Her affair was a bad choice, something to forgive and I have. In stages. It is mostly gone now. Lots of resentment rushes back when she breaks NC. We say on this board that it takes the WS back to ground zero in withdrawal. But it does the FS too. I feel like I have to forgive it all over again. The worst part is the lying. That bothers me MUCH more than the affair. The worst parts are mercy and respect.

To the second comment, I agree about RAP. But would argue I am great because I allow God to make me that way. When I turn from him, I’m pretty nasty. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

- - - - - -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">knewbetter:
A person who posts that they came to you on their knees in humility and apology while in actually pounding their fists into the place where you lay is not representing the entire truth. You don't have to apologize for giving the parts he convieniently left out!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly, I don’t think you have read many of my posts if you can say that. I have come on here WHENEVER I have done something really horrible and freely told it. Never proud of it. If you don’t believe me, post back and I will point you to all the posts where I have done this. Second, I did come to her humbly on my knees wracked with emotion THEN I “pounded my fists into the place where she lay” or something like that some time after. I am choosing to “conveniently leave out” what transpired between those two events.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">knewbetter:
I can't even begin to imagine how difficult is must be to be married to someone who always has to be right, someone who actually *enjoys* debate/arguing for the sake of debating/argument. That quality is social death BTW, unless you hang with others who enjoy the same. It is definite marital death, and I for one, COMPLETELY understand your tendency to shut down.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I have done my homework and KNOW I am right, I typically do not back down. Seldom does that involve relationships or opinions or feelings, because you do not KNOW. My coworkers and friends do not hold that opinion of me, alas, they do not post here. I have posted here many times and told people who corrected me, “thanks, you are right.” I have also said the same to RAP. Where I don’t do it is when someone comes to me and says I am wrong and THEY have not “done their homework.” Shooting off at the mouth, as you are doing here. I will take WHATEVER criticism you give me. I will take it to heart and reflect on it because you took the time and cared enough to give it. If it has merit, I will change because of it and be appreciative. But do not formulate it in haste, it has no value then.

I would say I enjoy a good debate. It helps define your boundaries. It helps bring to light pros and cons of alternates. Not for the FUN of the debate, but for the fact that struggle strengthens and grows me. I am a better person for it. I am already a better person for going through this betrayal. Look at my restating the wedding vow debate:

- I said it would be a good idea to do it for the kids as they know something is wrong with mom and dad and it might be comforting.
- I said I needed a milestone, a defining event AFTER which no more betrayals would occur.
- I said it might be good for us to say the vows again, to reiterate that in fact they are promises of action regardless of current state of feelings.
- RAP said that her heart was not in restating the vows and she did not want to until she could mean it.
- She disagreed with the need for the children to see it.
- She, or I think she did not, understand my need for a milestone. She doesn’t seem to work that way.

This went back and forth a few days, sometimes a little heated. No yelling, screaming, or fist-pounding. In the end, we agreed to disagree. But this was an IMPORTANT issue to me. I felt I was right about it. I backed off. In fact, I have been backing off of a lot of big issues. Again, I am going to “conveniently leave them out” because I don’t see what purpose they would serve here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">knewbetter:
There is a HUGE difference between intellectual intelligence and emotional and or social intelligence. It is in the latter that you seem to be lagging.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy. I really want to respond to this one. If I had to rank myself in intelligence, it would be intellectual, social, then emotional. You make it sound like it paints me as some clumsy monster who doesn’t know how to treat people. And sometimes I don’t. I can be blunt and to the point. I AM known for that by my friends and co-workes. A lack of tact. But it does not mean I am not compassionate and feel bad when I emotionally mistreat someone. But there is another side to that coin, if I may point it out to you. To be CRUEL you have to have some emotional intelligence. Cruelty is intentional. So if I am as cruel as I am somewhat being portrayed here, how can I also be emotionally stupid? I am not cruel, I just don’t read subtle signs well. But on this flip side, I am naturally trusting and probably too forgiving. Both of which she has taken advantage of.

Knewbetter,

You have continued on the post above and essentially made these points about me.
- I am not accountable to anyone and must be in IC. NOT TRUE
- I am steamrollering my wife consistently. NOT TRUE
- She cannot defend herself. NOT TRUE – she doesn’t have to.
- She needs to learn how to stand up for herself. NOT TRUE, she knows.
- I do not have unilateral support. TRUE and thank God I don’t because I post to learn and if everyone agreed with me I wouldn’t be learning a thing.
- Sadistic postnup? KB, my heart has been severely stomped on 7 times now because of my wife’s LACK of accountability. The only thing she has EVER suffered for her betrayals is my anger, quickly followed by my forgiveness. It came into my head because of two reasons. I am very creative and I am desperate to not be hurt. Are you trying to tell me you have never had a bad or vindictive thought? Why does that make me seem so evil to you just because I post mine? Until there is a document drawn up and I have my kids in the car with the motor running ready to take them away and a pen in RAPs hands, it is just a thought that I chose to post. Maybe I felt bad about saying it and posted here because I believe confession is good for the soul?
- RAP needs to be able to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH??? Let me ask you this, where has she BEEN for the last 5 or 6 weeks? She reads and lurks. Kind of strange that she reappears after I vent about ANOTHER betrayal. Let’s see, LAST time she posted was after I vented about ANOTHER betrayal 5 or 6 weeks ago. All that time in between, no venting from NCWalker. So does that mean she has been wonderful to me and I to her? Maybe. But it could also mean that she and I chose not to post every little conflict. And we have had them. MANY of which she has said enough is enough and I backed down. Was NOT going to do it this time because she betrayed me and lied about it. And throughout the week, more and more lies came to the surface about it. What about radical honesty? Doesn’t Harley himself say that the WS needs to begin to earn the trust of the FS back? How in the he11 is she doing that? So I tied on a really big mad and refused to back off. SHE BROKE NC and LIED to me!!!

Which one of you has looked at her on this thread and said RAP, that was REALLY STUPID. You are going to drive this man away?

No, she pops back on here to refute something I said and you all have the impression that her maniacal husband turned his back for an instant and she managed break her bonds and get on the computer and cry for help. I have been putting up with her anger as much as she has mine, you just don’t hear about it. Why? Because I READ what other people post and LEARN from it. I HEAR what others are saying about their spouses in the fog and when RAP does that, I just chock it up to the fog, say my prayers about it and think at least we are getting better. I don’t post it, because I can handle it and it doesn’t merit posting.

So she BREAKS NC and LIES TO MY FACE and stabs a huge knife in my heart AGAIN and I get a little mad and come here and vent. Do you know how many days she has been angry at me since Sunday? EVERY ONE. ONLY one was reasonable – she was mad that I posted something she thought to personal. Was she right? You can’t quantify that, if I had thought it was too personal, I wouldn’t have posted it. There ARE things I don’t post about her. But it did not matter, because she FELT it was too personal. So I apologized to her. And she railed on me for a half an hour. And I was humble, I didn’t even RAISE MY VOICE. All the other times? She is carrying the hurt from Sunday. Where is HER forgiveness? All I did was get a little angry because SHE BETRAYED ME AGAIN.

Sunday night, she did something WRONG. There is no opinion involved in evaluating that wrongness, it’s fact. She broke NC – wrong for a WS. She also broke a promise to me. Then she LIED about it. She came back hurt, started to confess, I got cold and hard, caught myself, backed off, and faced her anger when I came back. We both got angry then. Know what I was guilty of? Not backing off. Know why I didn’t back off? Because I have been cutting her a ton of slack and was just asking for a little in return for the mistake I made being cold and hard. I have backed off to her anger the rest of the week. Not quite true, but I have remained in control on half of them, and backed off on the other half.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">knewbetter:
Apologize for what you need to but do not automaticaly take on NCs accusations as the gospel truth about who you really are.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m sorry. You have really pi$$ed me off here. She SAYS she does and most of the time the WORDS come out of her mouth. Some of that time it is because I am looking at her and saying “Why can’t you just apologize?” and she snaps back “I’m sorry, OK.” I am telling you, as God as my witness, I don’t sit here in judgement of her. I am not saying she doesn’t feel judged. I am saying I do not sit here and think to myself “What an awful wife I have. She is worthless.” And turn around and say it. I have already posted what I think is going on there and will not go into it again. Most of the time I speak encouraging words over her. I lay hands on her and pray for her lots. I tell her it’s not her fault. I probably tell her to not beat herself up more than anyone. You have no idea how strongly I support her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">knewbetter:
You cannot pay the price for this forever and ever even though he seems bent on making you, so if you are in the clear then stand up for yourself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KB, I’m sorry. You can blow this one out you’re a$$ and I will hand you the match. All I want is my marriage back. I have made great strides in forgiving her. I don’t want her to pay some price forever and ever. I have never asked her too. How CAN she repay for what she has done? If you had any idea how hard-wired I am for loyalty and faithfulness, you’d be ashamed of making that statement above. Her adultery was probably the worst thing she could have done as far as giving me pain. You have know idea the ramifications because you don’t know our marital history and I am NOT going to post anything about that because I got a severe tongue lashing for what I have posted. There is no repayment for what she has done. So it is senseless to even try. All we can do is move on from here and be the best to each other that we can be. And THAT is all I am trying to do.

You know what, KB? I was typing a good tirade here. Would have shed some light on things. But I can’t. Because in order to do that, I would have to suffer RAPs resentment for expressing how I feel. So I am stuck. I either face RAPs resentment or have you think I am some monster.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You asked for some honest feedback a while back and then disappeared for a while. I had hoped that you considered what was said and ACTED to change the behaviors. Being teachable is a very important quality especially in areas where you are not familiar, such as this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do this. I try and make these things I learn habits. Our marriage may not work, but I WILL be a better man for it at the end. I also think RAP will be a better woman.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You seem to have entirely too much invested in being right all the time NCW (even when you backpedal) and it's high time you looked at how much damage YOU have done to your marriage with this line of thinking. Your reaction to JL's Prodigal Son reference is an prime example of how you can miss the heart of the entire message by picking it apart! Are you quite sure you've forgiven RAP?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The “heart” of JLs post was to tell me that insisting on the post-nuptual was a bad idea. In fact, the post-nuputal itself was a bad idea.

I have been down this road before where I have written something that was quite misinterpreted. And OVER AND OVER again I had people posting that it was a bad idea. AND IT WAS. BUT IT WAS A THOUGHT. And I would say “I’m not seriously considering this.” And people would call me on it – some nicely, some harshly. Round and round it went. ARGH.

Look. I post what I think. Because I like to. I know I am not perfect and I am not ashamed of my imperfections.

Look. I firmly believe that your HEART and FEELINGS will follow where you steer them. Your deep feelings, I mean. Yeah, a hot little nubile chick goes walking by and my feelings of LUST arise. I am a man. But if I STEER that way and don’t guard my heart, THEN my feelings of LOVE will arise. That is fundamentally it.

For reasons I am not going to go into, I felt that we needed some plan or framework to get through this. That we needed to STEER towards a recovered marriage. Why is it that EVERY other problem I have ever faced is well solved with a good plan? So I wrote a recovery plan. And it had a lot of things in it. And I gave it to RAP and the MC with the FULL INTENTION that it would be paired down. There were most definitely things wrong with it from a relational standpoint (because I am no expert in this) and there were most definitely things RAP wouldn’t be comfortable with. I felt that it was a starting point, and the INTENTION was to go through this thing and come to a reasonable plan from this starting point. A part of which, and a SMALL part, was this post-nuptual agreement. Know what? It was the ONLY game in town? How come no one has called RAP on this and asked her what HER plan was to help clean up this mess? So in a moment of frustration, I brought it up because I was hurting that she BETRAYED me again. And she posted a little blurb on it on this thread. And everyone jumped on it. So I came on to explain it, because you all expressed concern and it would bother me for you to be concerned about it. I consider you caring people. So I was forthright with where the damn thing came from and it keeps getting brought back up. IT IS NOT A BIG DEAL. I AM NOT INSISTING ON IT. My mistake was talking to weaver about it. We had a stimulating dialog going along that was really about examining boundaries of behavior. At least to me. Probably to weaver as well. PLEASE drop it. If you are that concerned about it, I live in North Carolina. Go on the North Carolina court system web page and check and see if one ever gets filed. If it ever does, feel free to come back and hammer away at me about it. Until then, GET OFF MY BACK.

And as far as the prodigal son analogy, I was asking for a biblical support for plan B. JL offered the prodigal son and I did not agree. Why was it important to say so? Because I did not want everyone running around thinking the analogy was sound. Maybe I shouldn’t have been concerned. But if you look at it, we have a wayward son who is running around and a rock-steady dad who is doing nothing but being a good dad and there for him whenever the son chooses to return. That sounds more like Plan A than B. The dad did not sever ties until the son repented. Or leave the son. Or force the son to leave. If anything, JL reinforced that there is NO biblical support for Plan B. And I am not saying there isn’t, I just haven’t found it yet.

NCW

<small>[ October 02, 2004, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

Low,

Geez. I don’t know why I am so defensive. I am probably frustrated that with RAP being so angry at me this week. Work has been brutal. And everyone keeps bashing me about a post-nuptual that doesn’t freaking exist.

Got the message on controlling, but it is confusing to me. I am supposed to control my children to prevent self-destructive behavior. I realize my wife is not my child, but also authority is authority. If I was an alcoholic and driving around with my kids in the car and my own wife called the police so they could come pick me up and give me a wake-up call, would that be controlling? Or should she just say “Honey, I feel nervous when you drive drunk with the kids in the car” and wait for me to realize it.

I mean, it is pretty clear to me that if she says she’ll be back in an hour and comes back in three that is very inconsiderate of my feelings. And when I “get on her” I am usually saying things like “That really hurts.” Sometimes I say “I can’t handle you going out tonight.” So I guess that’s controlling. But if she went, I wouldn’t prevent her. I’d just be angry when she got back. I’ll look at that. What do you do, though? If she chose to put me in physical pain, say hitting me with a rolling pin, nobody would have a problem with me stopping her. I mean, I shouldn’t bludgeon her unconscious, just prevent her from hurting me with a rolling pin. Why is it different because it is emotional pain?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is a difference in perception. YOU don't think you have pushed, but by making to very clear to her that you want this to happen for recovery creates an expectation in RAP's mind that "I have to do this for him to heal". If she is not ready to say those vows again, it equates to her not wanting you to heal. Do you see the confusion and possibly self imposed pressure to comply with your request? It feels like "pushing".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is very interesting. You see, all the time we are told that a marriage takes two. Now, suddenly, in the wake of an affair, it takes one and that one is the BS. And people are already thinking, but what if she was in a coma? Well, that applies to me picking up slack that she could NOT do. And it makes sense. But it is only LIKE a coma. It is NOT a coma. So there is a part where the analogy doesn’t fit and that is the WS is NOT incapacitated. I have said on this thread a bunch of times now that I believe if someone puts the HEAD (and by this I mean, will, or soul) in a direction, their feelings will follow. I haven’t heard that refuted. What is wrong with me asking of my wife, who DID wrong me, to do something that would make MY healing go faster? I understand I should not demand it. All I can do is ask. I mean, if I say “If you don’t restate our wedding vows, I’ll stop feeding you” I am demanding something. But if I say it would really make me feel better if she did, and she feels pressure from that, maybe she should just do it. I mean, if she is beating herself up and thinking everything she is doing is wrong, and I am saying here are a couple of things that would make big deposits in MY love bank, maybe she should just do them. Seems pretty simple to me. She called me at work today and asked me to pick up the darling sons. Didn’t want to see the OM at the school. I had to leave early to do it. I have really shorted my company some hours this week in a time when they really need me, it was wrong to do it to them. But I’ll make it up. They’ll get extra time from me. It was hard for me to do this because they have been accommodating to me. But she needed it, so I did it. The implication was it would make her day easier. I love her. I did it. Didn’t FEEL like doing it. Chose to. Definitely felt PRESSURE to do it. I had three options.
(1) Relieve the pressure by getting mad at her and forcing her to withdraw it.
(2) Ignore the pressure (just DON’T do it) and risk her anger/resentment for letting me down.
(3) Relieve the pressure by simply doing it. Understanding it would create more pressure from a different source later.

I guess there is a fourth, and that would be explain why I can’t so she doesn’t get angry. But like you said, the mere fact that she asked means the pressure is there.

Next question: does the fact that I am bringing up picking up the kids as an example mean that in my heart I am holding this against her? That I expect something for doing this? That I am judging her because I am doing this and she is not doing something to help me? Quite a reach. I really just choosing to bless her.

Low, I promise, I will soften my heart. I have done it before and CAN do it again. It is hard right now because of Sunday night. Also because of her anger and not really forgiving me for mine. I’ll be fine. Easily by Sunday, almost there now.

NCWalker

NCW,
This may sound completely off base, but I think everyone is missing something in your posts. I haven't posted in awhile to you or RAP.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

You are at your wits end.... that little voice in your head is getting louder and louder...you want to give up...throw in the towel...you're exhausted....you're frustrated beyond words because you don't know what to do, what to say, what to react to, what you shouldn't react to. The uphill climb is getting the better of you right now. This frustration is so raw..that it's perceived as ANGER.... being defensive...LB, DJ.

I don't think anyone realizes the war that goes on inside YOU. You are so overwhelmed with all this....you beat yourself up along the way as well. Throw in work and the kids, bills...and real life...you're on the brink of a meltdown.

You have had a heck of a struggle...and I know the burden you carry is getting heavier. You have put so much work into this and it may seem you are not getting much by way of results.

If any of this is true.....I hope you recognize it as a downslide on the rollercoaster.

Turn this over NCW....once and for all...turn it over to God...you've done all you can handle right now...let him take over. You've done your part, now let him do his.

NCW, You should be aware that while I may not often post to your threads I have been VERY familiar with you and RAP from the start. If you are at all familiar with ME you would know that I am somewhat direct. Brutally honest, some have said. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> All meant for good, believe it or not. (I take it you don't?)

While I am generally content to keep my thoughts to myself regarding YOUR situation, I did choose to take some time to gather my observations which were culled from 5 or 6 months worth of reading. "Shooting my mouth off" is not a characteristic for which I am known.

So that said, if you are unhappy with the points I made, (the postnup thing being a rather minor aside, BTW) then ignore them. There was really no need to defend yourself so vigorously. I was pointing out areas that needed both yours and RAPs attention. I was not implying RAP is right and you are wrong which seemed to me to be the overall impression you got, based on your infuriated reply.

Undeniably you both have major changes to make whether you want to give any weight to my thoughts or not. Obviously, I can't help but conclude that I got a little taste of what RAP gets at home. No problem, I don't have to live with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I will say that H and I have had some very interesting discussions revolving around your situation. I chose at this time to express some thoughts regarding the negative dynamics of your relationship. I'm sorry you took the message so badly, it does rather tend to negate any possible positive impact if the person comes completely unglued upon reading. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> KB

I wish we could all just go out bowling, like Maddy and some of the others.

So many words here, so much lost between the lines but with one common theme, we all care.

I am with friends this weekend, but it is different than the bond we form with our MB friends. I think we become so bonded through our pain and a deep desire to see each other succeed in our marriages and relationships here.

NCW I do know how devastating the lies are and I do know that woman normally lie out of fear. I don't want to get back into a debate but it all comes back to opening up that cage so there is no longer any need for lies, those spoken and unspoken.

I am a woman and I think I always relate to the heart of a woman, it is easier for me to see and respond to RAPS pain than it is to yours not because I think her difficulty in the marriage has more merrit than yours.

You are in the middle of the storm and we are on the outside looking in. Our perspectives are different than yours, but one thing remains the same - we care and only wish you and RAP the best. This is your LIFE and the stakes are great, but LOVE WILL PREVAIL - please believe and take comfort in that.


Weaver

Betrayedinjersey said this -

Turn this over NCW....once and for all...turn it over to God...you've done all you can handle right now...let him take over. You've done your part, now let him do his.

The biggest, the most profound and the most comforting truth there is.

And - Jesus said "what is your desire? ask and I will make it so"!

And when all else fails, when your shoulders can no longer carry your heavy burden, when the tears no longer come because the pain is too great - pray the prayer that NEVER fails -

Father, Your will be done. Amen

Weaver

<small>[ October 02, 2004, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I realize my wife is not my child, but also authority is authority. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where I think you are tripping. No, authority is NOT authority.

Authority between God and humanity is of a certain nature. Authority between parents and children is of another. And authority between sovereign adults is another.

If you confuse any of these, you risk damaging the relationships that go with them.

The only authority any adult has over another is that authority that the one being governed grants them. You cannot insist on exerting your "authority" over RAP unless she is willing to submit to you. When you behave in ways that she thinks doesn't consider how she feels, then she wants to take back the authority she's given you.

Your analogy about kids in the car is flawed because you are implying that RAP's autonomy represents an immediate mortal danger. We know this is not so. Yes, her poor choices are painful, but not fatal. So the comparison doesn't wash.

You may wonder what I think the difference between boundaries and control is?

Boundaries are those behaviors in RAP that would trigger a certain SELF-PROTECTIVE behavior on your part. A boundary says "If she continues to behave this way, then I will be forced to take these actions to protect myself"

Control is when you establish consequences that are designed to punish RAP when she doesn't meet your expectations OR when you attempt to physically control her actions or environment. Threats of any sort are usually control measures.
Controlling behavior says "If she continues to behave this way, I will be forced to take these actions to discipline her and prevent her from hurting herself and the family"

Notice how the last one did sound somewhat noble and even has a bit of "tough love" thrown is for good measure. BUT it doesn't recognize RAP as an autonomous sovereign person.

This certainly doesn't mean you can't express hurt or disappointment. It DOES mean that you should NOT use these behavior to manipulate or punish RAP.

I ask you this. If you were about to get in the car to drive drunk, do you think Jesus would swoop down and take away your car keys?

No, He loves you enough to allow you your complete free will...as self destructive as that could be.

Low