*** I'M CROSS-POSTING THIS ON THE PLAN A/B BOARD, STILL IN THE MIDDLE AND NOT SURE WHERE THIS GOES***

Those of you who have followed my previous posts know that most recently I struggled with the idea of finally sitting my BW/WW down and telling her everything.
All the fine details that she had been missing, filling in the blanks of truths that she has learned gradually over the last 2 months through 2nd-hand sources (most notably one of my OW in a direct phone call, as well as some emails, cell phone bills, etc.) has been my biggest fear.

Well, as per my last thread "new news: what happened when you told your S everything?" -
I have done the deed, thanks to my own conscience, words of encouragement from this BBS, and even her own statements that my honesty was going to be required to work things out.

Where I left off yesterday, after I was honest, she blew up and swore and yelled and screamed that it was over (again...you can read that thread for some of the gory details)...but then an hour later TM'd me and apologized.
Well - we started TM'ing, and the subject turned to sex. If you can believe this, she started talking about the sexual prowess (or lack thereof) of her OM, the one she still is involved with!! I can't believe I sat there and listened to it.

Anyway...she asked me to come over because she wanted me in a sexual way - I know there's more to it than that deep down - so I went over.

I slept there last night (2nd night in a row, but first time we had had sex since 9/8...we had sex a few times after D-Day) and this morning was nice, just regular chit-chat while she got ready for work and...it was just normal, like it used to be.

She said a few times over the course of last night and today that she just "wants to be the sexiest girl of them all" meaning, she's struggling with how I could have been with OW when she's so beautiful and attractive and our sexual chemistry is wonderful.
But then I have also admitted that my A's were really not about attractiveness or even SEX in and of itself, that it was about these women being readily available and worshipping me and feeding my ego. Groupies, in a sense. So she has heard the truth, but she is still struggling with a natural reaction of "I must not have been enough."

Anyway -
The cut of it is this...

She is flying to the East Coast this weekend to be with her OM. After the great weekend we had together (all pain and yelling aside), I feel terrible about that, because I really feel like we had a breakthrough this weekend. We spent the entire weekend together, I was totally honest for the 1st time ever with her, she appreciated it, we were loving each other...it was very beneficial.

Before, I was able to say "there's no hope for us and I deserve it and she's going to do it" and tried not to let it bug me when I knew she was with him. But now I'm starting to resent his existence.

So - I'm starting on Plan A. I've cut out my OW. I'm beginning to change for the better, for myself and for her. I finally have been honest with her. We are making progress and there is still lots of love there, even if it's going to take awhile, even if we're not officially "working on it" yet.

But I'm starting to dread what Plan B says - it almost sounds like I have to cut HER off until she dumps HIM and commits to our marriage. The thought of that kills me after the great weekend we just had.

Whoa! Plan B should only be implemented after a reasonable time of implementing Plan A has passed without the affair coming to an end. So far your Plan A has just started so it is premature to even consider Plan B at this moment in time.

Have you stopped to think that all her talk about the OM's sexual prowess is just talk with the intention to hurt you like you hurt her by giving her all the gory details about your sexual escapades with the OW? Sexual prowess, while important, is not the end all be all for women when they have sex with a man. Ask yourself, if he is such a superior lover why does she chose to have sex with you? Remember that sex for a woman is totally different than sex for man. It is much easier for a man to have sex with a woman he does not have feelings of love for, than it is for an emotionally healthy woman to do the same. The fact that she had sex with you is significant for it means she still has plenty of love left for you. Now she may go to the East coast to end her relationship with the OM but if she were to have sex with the OM, it may be something she may feel deep regret for afterwards especially if you conveyed to something along the lines of "As much as it will hurt me deeoly knowing that you will be intimate with the OM, I don't blame you one bit for doing it. I love you so much and if this is something you feel you need in order to heal from my betrayals, then so be it". If she has a conscience, it will be very hard for her to enjoy the company of her OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> Whoa! Plan B should only be implemented after a reasonable time of implementing Plan A has passed without the affair coming to an end. So far your Plan A has just started so it is premature to even consider Plan B at this moment in time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK...I guess I just was looking ahead with fear and dread that I might have to cut her off...the thought kills me. I'll take one day at a time, thanks for the advice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sexual prowess, while important, is not the end all be all for women when they have sex with a man. Ask yourself, if he is such a superior lover why does she chose to have sex with you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of COURSE she's talking about it to hurt me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
See, this is the type of woman my W is - she is VERY strong, VERY independent, VERY much a "don't take crap" kind of girl...this is not the kind of girl you mess with, especially cheat on, and come out unscathed. I even have had actual bruises from a particularly bad night when she was hitting me!

And that strong streak is one thing I love about her.

But she wants me to hurt, she's even said that pointblank. And this isn't the only thing she tells me about him. She told me about how much money he makes, how he owns a house (all things she says she wants that I don't have), blah blah blah...
She even cried on my shoulder the day she told him she wasn't leaving town to move in with him because she "devastated him" (moving is an idea that later became an option again as she got more upset with me...her desire to leave me and this town for him in his town seems to be directly relevant to me).

Also - she actually said he's NOT as good a lover as me, in the same breath as saying that I am the best she's ever had.
So, there's something to that too.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now she may go to the East coast to end her relationship with the OM but if she were to have sex with the OM </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting you say that...a part of me almost wonders, definitely hopes, that she's going out there to tell him it's over. She did tell me last week that she had two trips planned to go see him but yesterday she said only one - and when I said I thought she had a 2nd trip coming up she denied it - so maybe this weekend is supposed to be it. I'll report back next week on THAT. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I doubt it though, she's going to make me sweat it out a bit longer than that, I think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it may be something she may feel deep regret for afterwards especially if you conveyed to something along the lines of "As much as it will hurt me deeoly knowing that you will be intimate with the OM, I don't blame you one bit for doing it. I love you so much and if this is something you feel you need in order to heal from my betrayals, then so be it". If she has a conscience, it will be very hard for her to enjoy the company of her OM. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TooMuchCoffeeMan, you're my new best friend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Seriously, I like the way you put things and your advice on my other thread helped immensely with my crossing that first bridge of honesty.

She already knows how much it kills me that she is with him, and I've said "you're free to figure things out I support whatever you decide 100%" but I've never been THAT blunt about it.

I will try. What do I have to lose now?? I've done everything else I didn't want to do and it seems to work, so why not!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Is it me, or does it seem that as soon as your W has her angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements towards you, she gets very scared that she may have pushed you too far and gets panicky and apologizes to you? You might want to consider not being available for her the next time she tries to contact you after another big blow out of hers, just to see what kind of reaction you get.

That's an interesting theory...

I'm not sure if that would be effective, honestly - as I said before she's very much a "take no prisoners" kind of girl on the surface but underneath she's just as mixed-up and sensitive and scared as the rest of us.

I think the outbursts are her way of showing how badly I've hurt her - even if she says things she doesn't mean or retracts later - and then the apologies and love are ways of reminding me that even though she's hurt and destroyed, she still loves me and maybe thinks there is still hope.

Fortunately, since Sunday's episode when I told her everything, there have been no LB's at all and actually we've spent a LOT of time together either face-to-face or over IM or phone.

I was at the house for 3 hours yesterday, and even when I went back to my place she IM'd me throughout the night and then called me before she went to sleep. All very loving, only a few times that little jabs or reminders of the pain would come up.

My point was [I should have made it apparent] that if your W has gotten consistently abusive with you then it may be time to do something totally different and unexpected [a la 180 degrees list]. You would not be doing it to punish her, just the opposite, you'd be doing it to help her to stop her continued poisoning of herself with anger and bitterness [as JL is fond of saying 'Resentment is like taking a poison pill and expecting the other person to die']

As far as her being a 'take no prisoners' type of woman, I'd beleive that if she had left you and was refusing to talk to you. But she is having sex with you which for a woman in emotional pain says a lot about the amount of love she still has for you. If you are sincere, you may even want to express to her [after having sex] that you feel unworthy of making love to her considering all the pain you have caused her. This could go a long way in helping her heal by forgiving you [forgiveness is for the benefit of the forgiver NOT for for the forgiven].

Above all don't get defensive about her words and show her with your words AND actions that you support her decisions no matter how painful they are to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>
Above all don't get defensive about her words and show her with your words AND actions that you support her decisions no matter how painful they are to you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you mean, that makes more sense. You're right too, if she was THAT enraged I would be long gone...the facts of the matter prove she's much closer to coming back around than she would like to admit.


It's interesting to see where we are now, a few days after the LB's have seemed to stop, a few days into a surprisingly wholesale return to spending lots of time together physically and in communication.

Me:
* angry and hurting over what I have done to her
* fearful she won't take me back
* hurting and jealous over her relationship with her OM

I have evidence and tools that temper each one of those somewhat, such as

* I have an idea WHY I did those things and know I can fix them
* She's given me more hope of reconciliation lately
* She's pretty much directly admitted that her OM is a distraction, an escape, he's not as good as me and that he complicates things for her (thank god he lives 1500 miles away so she can have that clarity)

And what I see in her:

* Anger and pain and destruction over my affairs
* Love and a desire to keep me in her life on some level
* Uncertainty over what she wants down the road
* Fear that taking me back will wind up in same place later
* Some thread of attachment to the OM, to me seems like she's holding on to him as a possible option for her future (but seems to be fading)


So now, you're right...it's a matter of me continuing to do what's right and keep my opinions to myself (more or less) even though her OM hurts me. Badly. Even though I have in my hand the cards in bullet point #3 above.

Curious, TMCM, what's your story? You seem to be more sympathetic to my current situation than some others who have replied to me on other threads, others that seem to be more skeptical of my feelings and sincerity.

<small>[ September 28, 2004, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
Curious, TMCM, what's your story? You seem to be more sympathetic to my current situation than some others who have replied to me on other threads, others that seem to be more skeptical of my feelings and sincerity.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since you asked, I will tell you [in a short sumjmay of course]. Before I discovered MB, I was married for 15 years [now divorced] to a woman who had serious and unresolved issues prior to our marriage. She chose to 'medicate' herself by having multiple affairs [she'd probably make you look like a virgin <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ], becoming a negligent mother, and emotionally abusive to not just me but our daughters as well. Despite all my best efforts, the marital environment had become so toxic that I ended up losing all love for her and finally divorced her. A few months after our divorce and her losing custody of our daughters, she attempted suicide and had to be institutionalized. She finally faced the fact that she needed professional help and committed herself to therapy. Although it is too late for us [since I moved on and remarried], she is now a much healthier and happier woman than the one I was married to. I am truly happy for her because now my daughters have their mother back from the abyss of self destruction. Both my present W [who coincidentally used to be married to a male version of my XWW] and I have read and benefited richly by implementing Dr Willard Harley's principles in his books 'His Needs Her Needs' and 'Love Busters'.

Even though I was never a WH, I sympathize with your situation because I do detect a genuine sincerity on your part to make amends for the wrongs you committed against your W and rebuild a happier and healthier marriage. But don't dismiss the other members you perceive as being doubtful of you because many times they are right in handing out virtual 2x4 to a WS that seems to be letting his/her Taker dominate their thoughts and actions.

I will tell you that what was crucial in my personal recovery was forgiving my XW. My forgiveness is and was not dependent on my XW's actions but on my desire to let go of the anger and bitterness that was poisoning my life. As I said in my previous post, forgiveness is NOT for the benefit of the forgiven but for the forgiver. Forgiveness doesn't absolve the responsibilities and consequences to the offender, because sooner or later he/she will pay [like my XW did by having me divorce her, losing custody of our daughters and attempting suicide]. If I had not forgiven my XW then my self poisoning would have continued not only to the detriment of yours truly but for my daughters as well, and it would have made it practically impossible for me to start a relationship with the woman I now share my life with.

Any more questions?