my WH keeps telling me that the marriage was over way before he started his EA. I know for a fact that they have not had sex b/c of an email I found from her saying that she respects his decision to be "faithful"..but this was (maybe still is..who knows?!?!) a very intense EA.

I knew we had some issues due to a new baby new house, just married, and a dying father (his)...but i thought we were doing OK....but now I realize when I look back..we had NO sex life to speak of. When I found out I was pregnant we were amazed since we had had sex once in about 6 months...yes it was that bad.

I read on here somewhere that men equate actual sex with emotional connection..is that really true??? I thought sex was jus an action to them...this can be a real eye opener for me in our relationship....I do not know why we werent having sex...we had been together for almost 10 years at that point and always had great sex...

Would a poor sex life push a man to have an EA? It seems it would send them to a PA not an EA...

And for any women who may read this how do you have sex with a man who has caused so much pain? Sex is a very emotional thing for me and I think most women...how do you put that aside?

If it is true that men equate emotions with sex and a good marriage with sex....I may have to change some things around here!!!!

ALSO, how do I have sex with someone when I think they may be thinking that they would rather have sex with the other person!?!?

so many issues to deal with.....uuggghhh

I know I felt very close to WW when we had sex.

So why not ask him, and try not to invalidate how he feels about it, just thank him for being honest about how he feels.

You might learn something about him.

TB

I think there are probably several reasons (all of which you've mentioned) why the EA has occurred..but lack of sex life is probably not the main reason. My WH and i have always had an awesome sex life. Mind you his EA began while i was pregnant. Even after the fact, we always kept that up. Only after my latest revalation have i held off on sex (last week)...just cause i think it sends the wrong message and will just confuse things. I never had a problem having sex again, but i think that's cause i was quite sure there wasn't a PA going on. Guess that's just a personal thing there...i know i'd never be able to look him in the eye again if he'd done it w/her (or anyone else).

The "sex w/the other person" thing..i know that has came across my mind as well. It's only natural for you to feel these emotions, how and if you get past them are up to you...this is where IC can help.

Best of luck to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jill8026,

Good question! I can't speak for all men; however, I do equate actual sex with emotional connection. When my wife rejects me, she seems to feel it is just the sex. I feel when she rejects me, she is rejecting my love and I feel she doesn't love me. No sex = no love.

Add that up over a period of time, and the guy is just there out of duty. He feels the love has gone out of the window.

Thank God my wife realizes this and makes sure we have SF at least once a week.

jill8026.

Please read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, IN THE BEDROOM"

This answers many of your questions.

Men need sex to feel loved and to open up.

It is a good book.

k

jill8026 - I know for me I am a very sexual person adn equate sex with emotional attachment. Sometimes when my XW would turn me down it actually made me angry. Like a rejection feeling as RAG said. We had sex regulary about 3-4 times a week and after being together 5 years I think that is pretty good. Yet I still wanted her to say yes everytime and I did feel closer with her when we did more often.
It's weird to say this, but try to fulfill that need better if u get the chance. It does mean a lot to men.

Jill,

You asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I read on here somewhere that men equate actual sex with emotional connection..is that really true??? I thought sex was jus an action to them...this can be a real eye opener for me in our relationship...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not only do we equate sex with emotional connection, IT is our primary way of making that connection. When the sex stops so does the connection unless there is an obvious reason for it to stop.

As for his EA, it is his way of seeking the emotional connection, but he apparently not gone all the way because he probably does not want to have an affair (ie he feels an affair means sex).

It is one of the odd things about relationships, that rejection in one area often means someone shuts down in many areas. Something for you to consider.

So yes, you do need to rethink this. Of all the needs people have sex is the one that ONLY a spouse is supposed to meet. Others, even conversation can be met partially by a friend, or work associates. But sex is really a unique thing in a relationship.

Must go, but I hope all of these responses help you.

God Bless,

JL

Jill:

I am sorry you are going thru such a tough time. I just wanted to agree with what others posted about sex in a marriage for a man. It is very important to most men and it can ruin a marriage.

You sound a little like my wife. She didn't think it was important. I have tried to tell her for years but she wouldn't listen to me. I am telling her this weekend that I am leaving the marriage and I don't think I am going to be back. She told me and I quote "I cook for the kids that should show you how much I love you."

As krusht posted above "Men need sex to feel loved and to open up" and at least for me no truer words were ever spoken. I feel so bad for our kids but I just plain don't feel loved. I hope things work out for you!

...and therefore, because of this thread, I hereby declare that once a day....oh, sorry. Getting a little carried away. Too emotional, you may say! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

ABSOLUTELY! I am in complete agreeance with the statement: When my W says no, she is rejecting *ME* completely.

I tried to explain it this way to my W (and guys, help me out here!):

Women get confused over the need of sex vs. the act of sex. As men, unfortunately (or fortunately), there is a physical aspect of, uh, "build-up", shall we say. (Physically, our sacs aren't that big. (Me being Irish, well, uh...)) Anyway, that is the physical side of it. It is "necessary" to release this actual tension and build up.

However, as a human, having feelings and being able to think (sometimes--we are "just" men, you know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), there is a need greater than the physical one--the "emotional connectivity" to the physical aspect. Sex means nothing more than that physical release if it were not for the "need" to feel needed and wanted and loved.

Did I make any sense?

I think I'll have a cigarette now.

Well, I am a strange man. I find it difficult to have sex without a loving context. I like to kiss and be kissed - I like to make love. I like to tease and tickle, and BE teased and tickled for a goodly time before and after !

Occasional POJA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> quickies notwithstanding that is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I guess thats why never had a ONS or an A in an industry that is polluted with them.

Men .... Sex ..... Emotions

I am a woman and sex is important to me (physically and emotionally). I know I knew the difference in our "love making" when the H was having his EA. It was more mechanical - I could feel it and he "wanted" it less often. I also know it is one of his EN's and always has been. And we've had some pretty trying times in this arena.

I felt alot of pain for both of us before my Depression/Breakdown. I was telling him that it wasn't him (and rejecting him). He was saying it must be him. Now, we both know it was the depression. (One of the biggest symptoms is the lack of want to do anything that you find "enjoyable")

As far as an EA vs. PA. I could have SF w/ the H after D-day, b/c I knew that sex wasn't a factor (he had an EA). I have to admitt I didn't "know" who he was thinking about (that bothered me a little) - but I never "knew" who he may be thinking about before - I just always hoped it was me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

If H had a PA - honestly it wouldn't have been so easy to get "back in the saddle". It would have driven me crazy - making comparisons. That's myself a esteem talking - I mean I know my H had other partners before me - I just felt I would always be the last (and the best) because we are M.

I also know for my H - being emotionally and mentally "involved" is all the better and more fulfilling for him. Besides the "emotional" part can last longer than the "phyical" part anyday <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

<small>[ September 28, 2004, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: brown ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it is true that men equate emotions with sex and a good marriage with sex....I may have to change some things around here!!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jill - there are exceptions to every rule (most of which, for men, live in San Francisco - the home of government approved public nude yoga, bath houses, etc.) BUT for most men your statement is TRUE.

Women tend to view sex as the "outcome" of the love that has been expressed all day long. Men tend to view sex as the "expression" and "validation" of love for their wives.

It is one of the reasons that men have to learn to deal with rejection early in life. The WOMAN is in control of sex. It's one thing to be rejected, told "no," by any other woman, but it's an entirely different matter to be told "no" by the one woman you have pledged to restrict ALL of your sexual energy and activity to.

This is one of the areas where the Emotional Needs Questionairre is important. While you may both have some similar needs, how you "rank" them and the importance of them to each of you can be markedly different. Lack of understanding these things is what leads to/lead to trouble in most cases. People start trying to practice "mind reading" and find out that we are not very good at that. We need to TALK.

And that's where another dilemna hits. Men are reluctant to talk about "feelings." It's not macho and they have been raised in a society that tells them over and over that "real men" don't show emotion, don't cry, don't act as "girlie men."

Men will NOT talk about their emotions if they are feeling rejected or if they don't feel 100% safe in revealing their feelings. Any fear of rejection or belittling or of "dismissing" their feelings and they "clam up" and you could't pry them open with a nuclear bomb. You want to know the depth of their feelings? Just look at the hell they go through when they discover their wife "accepted" someone else. The rejection they feel is about as intense as anything you can imagine.

And women are at "fault" for a lot of it. They want the societal image of the "macho man" AND they want the soft, somewhat effeminate, man who is "in touch with his feelings."

The solution is BALANCE. There is time for all things. But most men will only let down their emotional safeguards with the ONE woman they trust and have committed their ENTIRE life to.

But since they elected to "throw all of their eggs into the one basket of THIS one woman," rejection is felt deeply and affects ALL aspects of their relationship. You see, men really are basically pretty simple creatures. But it takes learning and understanding the differences between men and women AND the willingness to meet each other's needs even if you "can't understand it" or it seems you have to act in a way that is not "normal" for you.

Check out flowers if you don't believe me. Most women love to get flowers. Most men see it as an "expense" for something that will be dead and in the garbage within a week. But they get the flowers anyway BECAUSE it is perceived as important to their wives. It's a difference in how men and women "rank" things in the emotional arena. To women, the flowers ARE the expression of love, of feeling loved by their husband. As many have said, "it's the little things" that add up.

What's meaningful? LEARNING. DOING. CHANGING. LOVING from a posture of servanthood, one to another. REMEMBERING. The scars we carry are a reminder of what can happen when we allow our eyes to wander from the servant's role and we become the "master", interested only in getting OUR wants and needs met.

Here's a little something that that relates to flowers that you might find helpful in putting the "scars" into perspective from Mountain Wings:


#1332 The Blessing Of Thorns
=======================

Sandra felt as low as the heels of her shoes as she pushed against a November gust and the florist shop door. Her life had been easy, like a spring breeze. Then in the fourth month of her second pregnancy, a minor automobile accident stole her ease.

During this Thanksgiving week she would have delivered a son.
She grieved over her loss. As if that weren't enough, her husband's company threatened a transfer. Then her sister, whose annual holiday visit she coveted, called saying she could not
come.

What's worse, Sandra's friend infuriated her by suggesting her grief was a God-given path to maturity that would allow her to empathize with others who suffer. "She has no idea what I'm
feeling," thought Sandra with a shudder.

"Thanksgiving? Thankful for what?" she wondered aloud. For a careless driver whose truck was hardly scratched when he rear-ended her? For an airbag that saved her life but took that of her child?

"Good afternoon, can I help you?"

The shop clerk's approach startled her.

"I....I need an arrangement, "stammered Sandra. "For Thanksgiving?

Do you want beautiful but ordinary, or would you like to challenge the day with a customer favorite I call the Thanksgiving Special?" asked the shop clerk.

"I'm convinced that flowers tell stories," she continued.

"Are you looking for something that conveys 'gratitude' this Thanksgiving?

"Not exactly!" Sandra blurted out. "In the last five months, everything that could go wrong has gone wrong. " Sandra regretted her outburst, and was surprised when the shop clerk said, "I have the perfect arrangement for you."

Then the door's small bell rang, and the shop clerk said, "Hi Barbara...let me get your order." She politely excused herself and walked toward a small workroom, then quickly reappeared,
carrying an arrangement of greenery, bows, and long-stemmed thorny roses.

Except the ends of the rose stems were neatly snipped...there were no flowers.

"Want this in a box?" asked the clerk.

Sandra watched for the customer's response. Was this a joke? Who would want rose stems with no flowers!?! She waited for laughter, but neither woman laughed. "Yes, please," Barbara replied with an appreciative smile.

"You'd think after three years of getting the special, I wouldn't be so moved by its significance, but I can feel it right here, all over again," she said as she gently tapped her
chest.

"Uhh," stammered Sandra, "that lady just left with, uhh... she just left with no flowers!"

"Right...I cut off the flowers. That's the Special... I call it the Thanksgiving Thorns Bouquet.

"Oh, come on, you can't tell me someone is willing to pay for that?" exclaimed Sandra.

"Barbara came into the shop three years ago feeling very much like you feel today," explained the clerk. "She thought she had very little to be thankful for. She had lost her father to cancer, the family business was failing, her son was into drugs, and she was facing major surgery."

"That same year I had lost my husband, "continued the clerk," and for the first time in my life, I had to spend the holidays alone. I had no children, no husband, no family nearby, and too
great a debt to allow any travel.


"So what did you do?" asked Sandra. "I learned to be thankful for thorns," answered the clerk quietly. "I've always thanked God for good things in life and never thought to ask Him why those good things happened to me, but when bad stuff hit, did I ever ask! It took time for me to learn that dark times are important.

I always enjoyed the 'flowers' of life, but it took thorns to show me the beauty of God's comfort. You know, the Bible says that God comforts us when we're afflicted, and from
His consolation we learn to comfort others.

"Sandra sucked in her breath as she thought about the very thing her friend had tried to tell her. "I guess the truth is I don't want comfort.

I've lost a baby and I'm angry with God."

Just then someone else walked in the shop.

"Hey, Phil!" shouted the clerk to the balding, rotund man.

"My wife sent me in to get our usual Thanksgiving arrangement ....twelve thorny, long-stemmed stems!" laughed Phil as the clerk handed him a tissue-wrapped arrangement from the refrigerator.

"Those are for your wife?" asked Sandra incredulously. "Do you mind me asking why she wants something that looks like that?

"No...I'm glad you asked," Phil replied. "Four years ago my wife and I nearly divorced. After forty years, we were in a real mess, but with the Lord's grace and guidance, we slogged through problem after problem.

He rescued our marriage. Jenny here (the clerk) told me she kept a vase of rose stems to remind her of what she learned from "thorny" times, and that was good enough for me. I took home some of those stems. My wife and I decided to label each one for a specific "problem" and give thanks to Him for what that problem taught us."

As Phil paid the clerk, he said to Sandra, "I highly recommend the Special!"

"I don't know if I can be thankful for the thorns in my life." Sandra said to the clerk. "It's all too... fresh."

"Well," the clerk replied carefully, "my experience has shown me that thorns make roses more precious. We treasure God's providential care more during trouble than at any other time.

Remember, it was a crown of thorns that Jesus wore so we might know His love. Don't resent the thorns."

Tears rolled down Sandra's cheeks. For the first time since the accident, she loosened her grip on resentment. "I'll take those twelve long-stemmed thorns, please," she managed to choke out.

"I hoped you would," said the clerk gently. "I'll have them ready in a minute."

"Thank you. What do I owe you?" asked Sandra.

"Nothing." said the clerk.

"Nothing but a promise to allow God to heal your heart. The first year's arrangement is always on me. "The clerk smiled and handed a card to Sandra.

"I'll attach this card to your arrangement, but maybe you'd like to read it first."

It read:

"Dear God, I have never thanked you for my thorns. I have thanked you a thousand times for my roses, but never once for my thorns. Teach me the glory of the cross I bear; teach me the
value of my thorns. Show me that I have climbed closer to you along the path of pain.

Show me that, through my tears, the colors of your rainbow look much more brilliant."

Author Unknown

I cannot thank everyone enough for their responses...it has been VERY helpful. Do not get me wrong..I love sex..especially with my husband, but for the last couple of years it has not been a priority since so many other things have taken place in our lives that were just emorionally and physically draining...sex didnt just take a front seat. I know see that that could be why my WH became distant from me. I never put the emotional/sexual connection together. I decided yesterday morning to put my hurt aside and try PLAN A....and here is how it played out..

He left here sunday night planning not to come back...until sat. to our daughter. He called last night to check in...we had a great phone call. He called back again to say he ahd to pick something up from the garage and then he would go...I said that is fine and he could stay at the house if he wanted...he responded :No Thanks"...but I was OK with that.

He got here and picked his stuff up and asked jokingly if we could have sex. (It has been a while!). I said well why dont you sit on the couch on watch some tv with me and see what happens..but I am not promising anything!. So we snuggled for about an hour...it was AWESOME!!!! (I do not think we layed together that long without having sex for about 2 years..) but ultimately we did have sex...the snuggling was all I needed to get me going...so we both got not only what we watned but what we needed....i do not remember that last time that has happened....

Everything was OK this morning..not great but definitely not bad..he left for work and said I may be home a little late...so I guess he is coming back tonite too---

I cannot beleive how much this board has already helped me in such a short time...hearing from the opposite sex on their thoughts has been incredibly beneficial...i know we still have a long road...and he still has some other issues that he needs to deal with...but we are on the right track I think...oh yeah and he also said he would quit his job if that is what it takes...so even if he doesnt actually do it..(that is a big decision since what he does is pretty unique)...it was a beautiful sentiment to me that he offered.....

thank you all so much!!!

ForeverHers- What an exceptional post. Thank you. This is something I was actually struggling with yesterday - and was amazed to find this post today! As a woman, affection leads to sex. When I complain of a lack of affection from my H, he tells me he would feel more affectionate if we had more sex. Quite the problem. Thanks for explaining this so well.

Brown thats really interesting....My FWW had an EA that led to a PA, and as you seem to suggest there are two seperate issues to deal with.The first is teh betrayal of intimacy. She said and did non sexual things that they should not. She kissed him as passionately as she kisses me. She talked about my failings , our children and our lives with him. It sickens me.

Now the physical bit is ALSO a hot potato, but a seperate one. It horrible that my FWW chose to have sex with someone else BUT in this case I do not have comparison anxiety. My own FWW and OM GF tells me that OM is far from a firecracker in bed, and in fact they only consummated properly twice of the six times they met for sex. More of a cherry bomb than a roman candle, and a damp one at that in fact.

* ahem* not an issue I suffer from * ahem*. My FWW was very enthusiastic, almost GRATEFUL for our lovemaking this weekend. She seemed to be enjoying me a lot * ahem *.
In truth we haven't been that passionate in years apart from odd occasions.

She told me she had forgotten how sexy I was * ahem * etc ( no more now).

So I stiill have a huge issue with the physical infidelity too but in truth if OM had been in our lounge, our bedroom or our holiday home this weekend, my FWW would have climbed over him to get to me for SF. he heh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maybe I'd have a harder time if I didn't consider myself a better catch than OM, I dunno.