I've probably got one of the most wretched stories on MB. Most people here stopped posting to me long ago, so I just lurk. But I do have a question today for anyone who feels like answering:

What do I do with the rage?

I got fooled by him for many years -- years of him sneaking off with office tramps both at work and on the road, and of lying to me about strippers and porn.

When I finally uncovered what was really going on, I tried *for years* to work with him. I tried to use MB principals like these:

1) I wanted him to take real responsibility for inflicting the damage and pain in the first place. He refuses. It is all excused and justified.
"We worked together."
"I didn't think it would be such a big deal."
"I was gone anyway, so what does it matter what I did?"

2) Giving me real and sincere apologies for turning his back on me and going to other women instead. He refuses. He's "sorry he hurt me." That's all. He is not capable of saying, "I'm sorry I ditched you for Trashface." No way.

3) Doing all social things together or not doing them at all. He refused to agree to this. He said he might have to do some social things for work. I actually agreed to this exception -- until I found out that these "exceptions" included his own off-site birthday party as well as a late-night visit to a comedy club with his co-workers while out of town. He was very, very angry that I thought I should have been invited to the party and that I did not want him to go celebrate at a comedy club with his co-workers when I couldn't be there. And he went to both things anyway, knowing full-well how I felt.

4) POJA. He hates this one more than anything.
He insists that it means nothing but my having veto power over his life and will not listen when I try to explain that's NOT what it is and NOT what I want.

At one point he very reluctantly agreed, but just a few days later could not bring himself to discuss what time to go to a movie. He left the house instead, snarling angry.

So -- not only can he betray me with trash in the first place, he sees no reason to clean up the mess he has made. He insists it's my problem to handle and is angry with me when I can't do that.

Yet when "all this" is kept quiet and swept under the rug, he's the greatest guy in the world to me -- just like he always was. He doesn't understand why that should not be good enough.

I am literally screaming with rage over this. I stay away as much as I can. I cannot move out yet, because I have a 16-year-old son and I'm not about to leave him here while one of Daddy's trash girlfriends either hangs out or moves in. It's a horrible way to live but I don't see what else I can do without abandoning my son -- and I will not do that, not even for the time it would take to get custody of him (too long.)

Most likely, the majority of the rage is directed at myself for being fooled by him in the first place and at being stupid enough think he'd want to make it right after that.

Sorry, I do not know the whole story but have you gone Plan B at any point? Or is there a reason that it is impossible. It sounds like your WH needs to see just what it is he would be missing. Sounds like he's fence riding right now and needs to be knocked off. I HATE hearing about people who take advantage like this just thinking they can go on as long as the BS will take it.

What are YOUR limitations? Have YOU any time limits set for Plan A / Plan B? How much more of this can YOU take? Sorry if this comes across too strong but WH is really taking advantage of you and that makes me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> .

Take Care.

C.

Hi Mulan,

I've never posted to you before but I did follow your story many months ago when I went WAY back and was reading some of the really old posts made by people from 2001 and 2002.Quite a story.

My questions are: what has lead you to continue with this man for more than 3 years with the same attitude he has? Does he really expect you to be like Jackie Kennedy and just look the other way? Is the payoff that he is sometimes an agreeable husband so you get some comfort out of that in order to handle all the other ugly parts?

This situation is still going on because you let it.Plain and simple.Even those of us whose WH's don't work at a "Fortune 500" company can get a better way of life without the cheaters invovled.

I just think that after 3 years of dealing with a WH and his attitude(narcissistic) and you are still screaming with rage sends a clear message:something's not right with this picture! Just what are you going to do about it then?

O

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

***My questions are: what has lead you to continue with this man for more than 3 years with the same attitude he has? Does he really expect you to be like Jackie Kennedy and just look the other way? ***

Actually, yes, he does. He would LOVE that. He seems to think that's what marriage is supposed to be. He thought that's what he had for a number of years when he managed to keep me in the dark. He describes these years as "the ideal marriage." It has never registered with him that while it was "ideal" for him, it was very lonely and painful for me. He does not understand what that has to do with him. My house was very nice and all the bills were paid.

I often think I am dealing with a narcissist. Many of the descriptions I've read fit him to a T. Charming guy that everyone loves -- just don't expect him to ever empathize with you, unless he's trying to get something. Real empathy for another human being? Never.

***Is the payoff that he is sometimes an agreeable husband so you get some comfort out of that in order to handle all the other ugly parts?***

No, the payoff is that I am still there for my son. I am very much afraid of him picking up his father's attitude towards women, or -- as I mentioned -- of some of these women ending up in the house if I am gone permanently. (I can just see the two of them double-dating - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ) I have a very close relationship with my son and so far he is on the right track. But what happens when I am gone?

The term "dog in the manger" comes to mind, doesn't it? Maybe that's what my screen name should be. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

***This situation is still going on because you let it.Plain and simple.***

I disagree. I don't "let it" go on. I have let him know in no uncertain terms how I feel and what this has done to me. I don't go anywhere with him and I have slept in my office for months. He would still rather have that than betray his female co-workers, admit he did something wrong, and stop putting his job first and his marriage last.

I did not "let" this happen. He knows what he is losing, but does not care. If I would just forget all this, act like nothing ever happened and stay out of his personal life, he would take very good care of me (financially.) Otherwise, I can go straight to hell while he goes out and enjoys himself.

I posted today to see it there is anyone else in a similar situation. I know I am supposed to detach but I am having an extremely hard time doing that. I would just like to know *how* to detach and not let the pain and rage rule my life so that I can protect my son until I can finally move out.

Some of this is PTSD. I fit every criteria. Some of it is real shock and horror at how easily -- and how many times -- I was led on and fooled by this man. That's why it has dragged on for so long -- I kept trusting him again. He's good. A master manipulator. I am horrified at how many times I have fallen for it. How would I ever be able to trust any man, with as many times as I have been fooled by this one?

If there is anyone out there who can relate, I hope you will respond. If not, just have a laugh at crazy old Mulan and go on to the next post.

Hi again,

Just a couple clarifications.First,I understand your desire to be there for your son.But,just what is it teaching him about your relationship now? Do you think he is not absorbing every little tid bit that transpires between you and your WH? He is a teenager and is learning a lot right now about how to treat women.That is,unless he is not living in the house but I assume he is? What makes you think that you wouldn't get custody?

Also,when I say "this situation is still going on because you let it",I am by no means blaming you for the actions of your WH BUT your life is exactly as it is because you let it be.All the anger,emotions,sadness,betrayal,humiliation,etc,etc.We all have the choice to make our lives better and yes some of those decisions are da** hard,like me deciding to D my WH.In my case,I could no longer go on in the routine as it was.I deserve more and I did what I could to make things better.As you know, you can only change yourself.I did but my WH wasn't willing to follow to make our marriage better and save our children and families from tremendous heartbreak.

You know what a manipulator this man is among many other things including a "serial" liar.Why stay? Surely it is more than the "abandonment of your son".I am not sure that's all of it.Is it the money? Nice house? Social standing? Fear of being alone? Just curious.

It seems to me that you know what you want but refuse to believe that your WH is incapable of being the one to give it,at least anymore.So you watch the months flow by without much change happening,just more of the same and you are consistently disappointed and angered.

I don't want this to come across as hurtful to you,I am just debating with you,that's all.Please don't be offended, I'm just curious about your dilemma. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

O

Mulan - you're the one who would have to leave? I can see that, the WH refusing to leave his own house.

You're taking it and taking it from this hideous philandering man. Yuck. He isn't even sorry. Do you think this M can be saved?

Don't you think you can do better? Shoot, being alone would beat having a person treat you like this.

GC

***It seems to me that you know what you want but refuse to believe that your WH is incapable of being the one to give it,at least anymore.So you watch the months flow by without much change happening,just more of the same and you are consistently disappointed and angered.***

I believe you are right. He made me very happy for quite some time, until he got to be a big shot at work and became absolutely addicted to the strokes and admiration and female attention he can get there -- as long as I'm not around. And he would rather let his marriage go to hell than give it up.

I AM staying here for my son. I have lived on my own before and am capable of doing it again -- but the only thing worse than staying here is leaving my son alone.

I knew somebody was going to say, "Well, what is your son learning now about how to treat women?"

He is learning that Mom is not okay with the two of them watching soft-core porn together and that she WILL stand up to both of them about it.

He is learning that Mom WILL talk to Son about how to treat his own girlfriends and that her advice pays off -- and Dad's doesn't.

He is learning that you can be single and date everybody, or you can be married and date your spouse -- but that you'd better not try to do both because it only causes tremendous pain for all involved.

If I leave, it's like throwing the boy to the wolves. I cannot let that happen. Do I like my house and my car? Sure I do. Of course I don't want to leave my home. But I would if my son was not here.

I did go out and train for a new job a while back and just got hired for a very good position. That's helping. I now have a reliable income of my own. (I am also a novelist. That's an income, but it's not reliable.)

I just hoped somebody could tell me what to do with all this rage. I am going to have it whether I stay or go -- just going to Plan B or Plan D is not going to make it go away.

What do I do with it? What have the rest of you done with it?

Hi Mulan,

I dont know your story, but it sounds like a doozy! I'm sorry. I understand that you are staying for a while for your boy. That's got to be insanely hard.

I was thinking you need to channel this rage into something... take up boxing or karate? I found this on another site...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anger (rage) has, throughout history, accomplished great things. I believe that Martin Luther King and Ghandi were anger driven. Anger at political, racial and economic injustice fueled actions that changed nations. Rather than succumbing to destructive or violent behaviors these men developed plans of action, problem focused, and let their anger carry them through. Another example is the organization MADD, a group of people whose lives have been injured or who have lost loved ones to drunk drivers. Laws and attitudes have been changed based on the problem-focused use of their anger. You, too, can accomplish great things in your relationship when you learn to harness and direct your anger in constructive, non-manipulative ways. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Certainty as the Cure for Anger II

I hope others jump in and respond... Please take care of yourself - Dru

Mulan,

How I deal with the rage, is by forgiving him and praying for him.


Compassion took the place of rage.

(Which caused me to pray more...)

Mind you, it is easier to view his behavior objectively , now that we don't live together.

I view him more with pity than with anger, now.

Shul

Mulan, you and I both know that your RAGE is directed at the wrong person. The real cause of your problems is not your H, but the lady in the mirror who has volunteered for this duty. Ya ain't a victim anymore, Mulan, you are a volunteer and you really need your [censored] kicked for playing this game for so many years.

You know you don't have the power to change anyone, yet you play this silly game over and over and over again. You have been doing this for years. I have been here almost 4 years and here you are still saying the same damn things. Now, that is just insane, Mulan.

You need to knock off the self pity parade and start taking charge of your life. You have no one but yourself to blame for your life. You are not a helpless dumb female, you are a smart, articulate woman who can handle herself. Act like it for once, please.

Melody,
I like your posts very much and always look for them, but I think you are misunderstanding me here. I re-posted my story so that anyone new would know what it was, and I listed the things I had tried just so anyone would know I DID try.

These days, he mostly ignores me. I live in my office, where I work and sleep, and try to stay away from him as much as I can. I am doing all I can towards personal recovery. I am finishing a contracted novel, even though it's very difficult, and I got a "normal" full-time job last month that will give me some security.

I am not looking for a pity party. I have chosen to stay for my son, and once he moves out for college I am gone, too.

I posted today because I am having great difficulty controlling my anger and resentment. It is there whether I stay here *or* go to Plan B or Plan D. I just wondered what other people had done to deal with the death of a relationship that cannot be saved even though you've tried everything.

The anger comes from his insistence that *I* ruined everything with my outrageous requests for things like POJA and only doing social things together, and yes indeed at myself for not seeing through him a long time ago.

I was just here looking for some help through a very hard time -- not a pity party. I don't know where else I can go.

Mulan, and that is exactly what I am trying to do, help you. I think the last thing you need is more sympathy, what you need is acceptance. A big part of your rage comes from your inability to accept him and understand that you can't control him. This is the same thing that has made you angry for years. And here we still are. After all these years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So -- not only can he betray me with trash in the first place, he sees no reason to clean up the mess he has made. He insists it's my problem to handle and is angry with me when I can't do that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But he is right. It is your problem, Mulan. It is your mess. It is not his. He has made it clear for a long time that he is perfectly happy with who he is. You are the only one who has a problem with this. And the bottom line is that you can never ever change him. You can only change yourself. You DO have the power to do that.

Mulan

Maybe you have the patience and fortitude of a saint. You have Plan A'd (I'm assuming) for way too long, sweetie! Time to shake things up a bit. What you have been doing is not working.

He really sounds awful in how he blatantly flaunts his lifestyle. The key word here is lifestyle. He is an obvious sex addict (oops, forgot, I'm "only" a nurse!). This is outta your hands. You are not to blame for this terrible behavior.

He is in denial, Mulan. there is nothing you can do, except Plan B. He is "getting" something from you that he needs, or else he would have sought a D by now, doncha think? REMOVE yourself from his sick clutches, Mulan.

Don't think for a moment that your son will think ill of you if you Plan B. You won't be Plan B-ing your son. Take him with you, actually. That's what I personally would do, but that is up to you. Your son will see his STRONG mommy finally taking a stand against her thoughtless WH. This will teach him far more than porno.

Please consider getting the heck outta that h*llhole! You need a break from this, it has worn you down to the bone.

You deserve it, Mulan. A nice rest for you would be good.

Okay, Mulan, I'll lay off the other stuff and just talk about rage.

The only things that take mine away are strenuous exercise and playing music with my band.

At least I think they do.

I actually don't know where else all this anger I'm supposed to have could be going.

But your husband is a harder case. He's just plain rotten. If you can't channel your anger anywhere, you need to seriously think about getting away from him. All that anger is hurting only you. And I suppose with your son he's making you out to be a fuddy-duddy while he's the fun-loving guy.

Does your son know about your H's sexual activities?

GC

Mulan,

I've been one of those who has advocated your making a different choice, for your son and for yourself.

Please be patient with me while I fill in a few holes on my understanding of your situation.

Have you consulted with an attorney to come to the conclusion that in a divorce, you would have to move out?

Have you consulted with an attorney to decide visitation issues in the event that you did divorce your husband?

********************
This next part of my feedback is to help you find a successful solution within the realm of staying with your vile someday-to-be-ex-husband (because his narcisism is vile). Again, the solution resides in changing yourself, even if you can't change your ultimate choice to stay or to go for the time being...

Now, because you insist that the path that you are dead-set on maintaining for two more years (at least), there are a couple of things I recommend you study up on.

#1 - Mental Toughness. James Loehr has a couple of great books that I've been studying for different reasons (I'm married to an honest-to-goodness-good-guy who is mentally ill and not functioning well some days more than others; I have a tough job (commission-only sales); and not enough money at the end of the month.

The Power of Full Engagement

Toughness Training For Life

With a husband like yours, it's psychological warfare. I've read your posts since you first started years ago; (I think I responded to a few of your posts). His goal is to have his wife and his fun, but not his fun exclusively with his wife. Therefore, he deems you as property. And you allow it because of whatever reason; but I believe the root of it is because you don't believe you can win a direct conflict with your husband. If you believed you were good enough, you'd find a good enough lawyer to take him for everything; kick him out of the house and let him go live his corporate life, just like Jack Welch did (remember the CEO of GE??? got caught with a retirement package that the shareholders didn't know about until his wife divorced him and disclosed in the divorce documents... he he he!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mulan:
<strong> These days, he mostly ignores me. I live in my office, where I work and sleep, and try to stay away from him as much as I can. I am doing all I can towards personal recovery. I am finishing a contracted novel, even though it's very difficult, and I got a "normal" full-time job last month that will give me some security.

I am not looking for a pity party. I have chosen to stay for my son, and once he moves out for college I am gone, too.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't had the opportunity to read all of your prior posts. I do have one question though- and I am not trying to be confrontational, I'm just trying to understand. Why do you think it is in the best interests of your son for things to continue as they are? You live in your office & don't talk to your H. This must be terribly confusing for your son. If you are dead set against moving out- why not file for divorce AND custody while continuing to live at home? At least then you will have an end in sight.

<small>[ September 28, 2004, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>

Mulan,
You are one of the people whose story I have followed because it seems to have some similarity to mine -- in that there is outright dismissal of feelings and the reaction is rage.

What I have come to realize is that rage is exactly the response that is most useful to the inconsiderate spouse. You may think that inconsiderate is too mild a term for what he is doing, but at base that's all that it is. He isn't showing care for you.

What I have learned is that he can do just what he pleases when he pleases with whom he pleases. I cannot tell him what to do or what not to do. All I can do is express my feelings in a way that takes ownership for how I feel and does not show any presumption that he should consider them.

You may think you are doing what is best for your son, but is it? You need to pull yourself together. If you are living in a situation in which you do not feel happy in your own home, is that really how you'd like to live? What may be best for your son is for him to know that commitment to marriage is not unconditional. It is conditional on mutual care. Let that be the lesson your son learns as he prepares for dating and probable marriage. Let him see by your actions that wives will not and should not tolerate emotional abuse which is so much worse than physical or verbal abuse because it destroys the soul.

One final thought: I'm in my mid-40s and it has been my experience that the people who are most messed up are those whose parents divorced when they were in college. Funny, that's what was the case with Tom's paramour. Perhaps those parents who think they are doing what is best for their children by hanging on to a dead marriage until the children are gone really are teaching lessons that aren't good for them. Take care of yourself NOW, and that is what is best for your son.

Cherished

<small>[ September 28, 2004, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

I do appreciate all of you responses. I will read the links and try to figure out what I can do.

I do work two jobs, in between the panic attacks. ADs are not an option for me. I am a novelist. I have talked to too many other writers and artists about what happens when they take ADs -- the creativity is turned off, just like the agonizing pictures in your head are turned off. It's been a ongoing topic in the writers' community for some time now.

Thanks again.
Mulan

Mulan --
Please keep in touch. I worked for one of the Big 8 accounting firms 20 years ago, and the partners and managers were having affairs after affairs. It took me a few weeks on the job to start to see the environment. Fresh out of college, I go to a training school in Chicago, and the manager whom I had met during the interview process wanted to show me what a manager's room looked like, and I obliged without any thought that I was being seduced. I get in the room, and the manager tells me that sex with a married man is just like sex with any other guy.
That was after he started in on me to my complete revulsion and astonishment.

That's the environment your H seems to have been in for a long time.
Cherished

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mulan:
<strong>
I do work two jobs, in between the panic attacks. ADs are not an option for me. I am a novelist. I have talked to too many other writers and artists about what happens when they take ADs -- the creativity is turned off, just like the agonizing pictures in your head are turned off. It's been a ongoing topic in the writers' community for some time now.

Thanks again.Mulan </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mulan- this isn't necessarily the case. If you are having panic attacks you need some help. I honest to God think that anti-d's saved my life- multiple times. I write (not well, but I do) and anti-d's haven't done anything to my "creativity" (ok, perhaps b/c there isn't much there in the first place....) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know, you don't have to take anti-d's for years. In fact you can start them- give them a few weeks to see how you're feeling- and then if they don't work- or ARE stifling your creativity you can go off of them (with your dr's help.)

Think about it. I'm not trying to be a drug-pusher, but I am a firm believer in chemical help when it is necessary.