No news is good news I guess.

I received a proposed marital termination agreement (MTA) from the sparrow dated 9/2.

The week after, when she tried to arrange coming to get the rest of her things, I layed a couple of harsh tirades on her over the phone.

The following week, my lawyer drafted a letter asking for clarification on one point of the MTA.

Not long after, the sparrow came to get the rest of her things. That day, I told her that I would not help her get the D, that I was defending our M, and that she was going to carry all the responsibility for the end of the M herself. She told me she didn't want to be married to me.

Later, she tried to do domestic things, like emptying the tank on the dehumidifier. Then she said, "This sucks", and I reminded her it was voluntary, to which she replied, "No." Next, she said, "At least you get to feel good about yourself." I said, "So could you," and she replied, "No, I couldn't." I found her crying a a little later, and took her in my arms and cried a bit myself. As she left, I gave her the wedding video with my performances on it.

She left a fair amount of stuff that she couldn't haul that day, and planned to come and get it later. She has not come for it.

Last week I sent her a card. I stuck her new proof of auto insurance card in there, and said I would like to drop off a few things with her. She has not responded.

So far, I haven't got any new legal stuff, though that could change tomorrow.

I wonder if she's staying put all of a sudden. Not sure though. Let's not get our hopes up that she's suddenly stopped working on the D. There are plenty of reasons to expect new legal stuff any day.

I still haven't gone to plan B. I'm getting ready for it, but I'm waiting. The emotional shock from her coming here has worn off, and I'm not sure any more whether I'm ready to do it.

I'm waiting for the next little drama, living my life, and actually feeling okay. People think I'm crazy when I tell them this, but I feel only compassion for her right now. Her life is so royally screwed up.

GC

Why the h3ll does sparrow, and other WS perpetuate an A that brings even THEM only pain and loss of self-respect long after it ceases to make anybody 'happy'?

I will never understand that....

All blessings GC. U know u will be fine.

once again, GC i'm in the same boat. the beginning of september H told me i would be served a summons in a couple of weeks and i still not have received anything. i had my lawyer check last week and my H has not filed anything. what am i supposed to think? i actually think it's more of a money issue. my L said it would cost H about $1500 to file. he doesn't have it as far as i know. like you, i still fully expect to receive papers anyday. he was out of work due to the resturaunt he works at was hit pretty hard by the storms but apparently he got a temp job as a construction worker, he also told me his classes were put on hold indefinitely and he probably wouldn't be able to graduate until next spring (he get's money to go to school). so i really thought this was going to delay things.

well he actually called me monday morning, the first time in about 6 weeks and he said he couldn't talk to me anymore. he called me because of the situation w/the house (too much to go into here) but anyway he said that his restaurant is opening back up next week and classes are resuming next week so things are back in "order." he can't be waiting for money from the sale of the house because he has agreed that all proceeds of house is to go towards marital debt. so again, what am i supposed to think?

anyway, just doing the best i can w/God's grace and help. just not sure what to think at this point. but i can only control myself and i still refuse to be the one that files for a D. continued prayers to you, RR

Bob, she's in the impossible position of knowing she's doing something that hurts people and diminishes herself, but cannot see any way out of it. She has given her loyalty to the OM, doesn't "feel it" for me, and has mortally wounded our M. Scores of people know what she's done. How can she ever look them in the eye after this?

She probably figures that if she can just ignore the screams of her victims for a little while longer, it will all be done and everybody can move on. I'm not sure if she realizes that for her, this will never be done.

RR - Somebody told me once - you know how when you really want something that you can't quite afford, you somehow find a way to get it? The "can't afford to divorce" rap seems very common. Anyway, regardless, I wonder what's so scary about you that your WH can't talk to you any more. Maybe protecting himself from truth and reality. Too bad for him.

GC

But GC, Sparrow is the main victim of her behaviour.... * sigh *

My FWW has the same fears, but teh folks who know about the A other than OMs missus all love us very much and will just be delighted to hear we are making progress. No prejudice. I am SO glad I didn;t expose to FWWs karate club and stuff now.


I am sorry, GC. Sorry that Sparrows pride is hurting so many people. Sorry that you have given up hope of her seeing sense.

Sorry if I am speaking out of turn here but what a bloody PATHETIC reason for a marriage to end: pride.

Abuse, incompatability, sexual issues I can understand all that. But PRIDE ????

dammit.
sorry, a bit angry there.

All blessings

I haven't given up hope, Bob. I've only given up the expectation that anything will change for the better in my M.

Over here, there's a safe, happy, prosperous life with me. Over there, there's chaos with OM. If she wants the chaos, one day that has to not be my problem.

For now it is. It hurts quite a lot when I think about her and OM together all the time. I know they're carousing currently. Overnight, she took her loyalty away from me and gave it to him.

So for now, instead of hoping that the next divorce document might never arrive, it makes more sense to just be prepared for it and try to live anyway.

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So for now, instead of hoping that the next divorce document might never arrive, it makes more sense to just be prepared for it and try to live anyway.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GC,

Try to stay focused on this attitude. Do you really have a lick of control over anything sparrow does/says? Try to provide her with a stable place to return to, and hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Perhaps at some point the time, money and effort it takes to get away from you may no longer be worth it to her. (Boy, that's motivating, isn't it!) But you catch my drift.........

Ethan

Gc, well of course you are right. last time i checked (a few weeks ago) he had about $1400 left on his credit card. plus i'm sure the OW would be more than happy to give/loan him the $$ or his parents, now whether or not he would actually have the you know what to take it, i don't know. but there's also the possibility that he's saving his money to fight whatever i'm going to say/do, you know what i mean? it takes money to use lawyers to go over this and that and maybe that's what he's keeping in mind. again, i honestly have no idea what he's waiting for. still think part of it is he wants me to be the one to do it maybe since he knows that i have a lawyer he thinks i'm going to file.

as far as him not talking to me, well it's all about him making himself feel better. if it upset him (well really it's guilt) too much to talk to me then he's going to go out of his way to make sure that happens. he says that's it's because it was ripping us apart each time we talked. well monday i said that it was him who talked about us and the marriage not me and that i could remain matter of fact and business like. his reply was 'yeah, you do that a lot better than me.' of course now i wish i would have said well i'm not being this way by choice. but i had no idea he would be calling me so i was totally caught off guard (he called me at work first thing in the morning and i don't have caller ID). but anyway, EVERYTHING he does is about making himself feel better and that's the bottomline. whether he makes himself feel better because he's not hurting the OW right now, because he thinks he is some way saving me from additional hurt by talking to me, whether it's waiting until the house is sold to file for a D. who knows.

i'm just trying to take one day at a time, making what arrangements i have to in the future and continue to pray that God's will be done in my life, my H's life, and our M, even if it's divorce.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong> Why the h3ll does sparrow, and other WS perpetuate an A that brings even THEM only pain and loss of self-respect long after it ceases to make anybody 'happy'? I will never understand that.... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gentlemen, I think graycloud made a good point about pride. Sometimes a WS is just too proud to admit that what they did was wrong. But I think it goes a little deeper than that, because it just seems incomprehensible that someone would let their own life be miserable and painful because they can't admit they were wrong.

What I see quite often is that the WS is sooooo infatuated with the OP that they put all their eggs in that basket. Then, as more and more people in their lives (neighbors, former friends, siblings, parents, pastors, etc.) start to tell them that the OP isn't "all that" and that the A is going to hurt them...what do the WS's do? THEY DEFEND THE AFFAIR AND THE OP!! They swear to EVERYONE that this is not an affair, it's "true love". They go to great lengths to claim it's "from God." They defend the OP's character--that they may have lied and cheated with their spouse, but that is NOT the kind of person the OP is...the OP is wonderful. And while they do all this defending of the OP and the A and their own choices, you know what happens? They paint themself into a corner. Now they are trapped into HAVING to defend the OP and HAVING to stick out the A because they told everyone how wonderful it is. They could not possibly express any unhappiness or discontent with the OP now, because they made this person out to be a saint sent from God to love them unconditionally...and understanding, gentle, true love!

So it's not that they are just "too proud"--they have put themself into a position that they see no way out...no way to say, "You know what? I'm not all that happy. That OP isn't all that wonderful. I must have been mistaken." In the WS mind, there is no way to SAVE FACE so now they just have to shut up and live with the pain and unhappiness and destruction they've caused. They made their bed, put all the eggs in the wrong basket, and now they have to live with it.

In a way, that's a little romantic fantasy too, isn't it? The long-suffering lover, doomed to a lifetime of sadness so that the one they loved and turned away can be happy. It's a little bit noble AND it offers them an opportunity to save their honor (in their own mind) because they are doing the honorable thing and letting the BS be happy after being treated so horribly. A lot of WS inner-mind-activity is "fantasy" and thus the long-suffering and honorable fake fantasy at least sounds preferable to the reality of admiting they were completely wrong to defend the WS and the A. In the fantasy, they save face and are kind of brave--in the reality, they are dishonored and humiliated.

Sooo...what can we BS's do to give our WS's a place that's safe for them and where they can return and be HONORED and kind of brave??


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sooo...what can we BS's do to give our WS's a place that's safe for them and where they can return and be HONORED and kind of brave??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactamundo! Livin' those words.

((((GC)))) Know what, budro? You've grown into quite a cool and froody person thru this sometimes horrific and altogether painful process. Some of us have watched it happen. I hope sparrow sees it sooner rather than later.

- Kimmy

CJ, you nailed it, and put it far better than I did. You get a bookmark for that post. A couple of months ago, the sparrow even told me, "I have no pride." She is a noble sufferer from a Victorian melodrama.

Thanks, Kim. First time I've been called froody, another milestone. Careful, your true nature is showing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

GC

Beteguesian? I thought the makeup would cover it....damn MaxxFactor....

GC,

Since the WS still has functioning tear ducts, I think it is time to make them run even more. Seems like when the WS cries, it tends to melt the A a bit but it should not melt the BS.

Here's my suggestion:

Now is the time to let the WS know that it is her duty to make sure she puts on a smiley face when she interacts with you (phone, voicemail or in person). It will give her something to do. She may have a twisted face but it will help you gauge where she is really at.

A WS maybe able to lie, cheat and steal but smile when you aren't happy, is very difficult. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I used this technique on my WS. You should have seen his face. I told him if he wanted to see me happy, he had to show me he was having a good time with the OW. Of course he just couldn't do that and in turn, his time with the OW went downhill. Another tactic I used to LB without lifting a finger.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid, I don't get it. Like, challenge her explicitly to act happy?

I'm talking to her on the phone, and I say, if you want me to be happy, and you're so happy now, you should try to sound happy?

Tweaked. I'll think about that.

I'm definitely done being stern with her. Next time we talk, I'm going to be perfectly cool, upbeat, and okay.

She didn't respond to a phone messsage I left two weeks ago, and she hasn't responded to the last thing I mailed her.

She's crawled back into the spider hole, I guess.

Thanks Orchid!

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> Orchid, I don't get it. Like, challenge her explicitly to act happy?

I'm talking to her on the phone, and I say, if you want me to be happy, and you're so happy now, you should try to sound happy?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, you say (in person w/b better - takes a lot of guts and you are gonna have to practice because you may spew stuff out of your nose as you are saying this....), anyway say something like:

BS: Well WS, looks like your happiness is more important than ours as a family.... so was wondering if you could please help me out adjust to your newly found happiness (stop and wait to measure her attention span).

(if she responds.... then proceed, if not drop it, this is not a good time to continue this discussion).

WS: I am not that happy (or: YIPEEE)..... what do you want me to help you with? NOt sure if I can....

BS: Oh.... I am sure you are quite capable of fulfilling this request..... U see I need some help moving on and being happy, one way is when we have to communicate if you could please show me that you are estatically happy, it would certainly help. Put on you best smiley face and don't cry or pout around me, no matter how much it hurts, ok? I will try to do the same.

For example: When we have to interact with the lawyers, mediators, acquaintances, etc. make sure you are just beaming with your newly found lifestyle. (BS imagines a bobblehead type of WS, the rest of the world will certainly get a taste of what you have been dealing with).

The reason is that seeing you miss our marriage or act sad, hurts me also but it is the greater hurt since you are showing me feelings you miss us but then act in a weird way, this hurts beyond belief.

I am not as good at this type of charade as you are so I may not be able to act out as well as you do but if you show me this by your example, I will certainly give it a try. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

(End with a smile).

WS: (Ws may nod or look confused).

Leave her looking that way. Do not explain further..... let her come back and ask for more info another day.

Practice. Be prepared not to act too shocked to the twisted face response...... Act cool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

L.

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

I don't have any thing to say (of a helpful nature) at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

However, I do care about you, and the prayers continue in your behalf.

Rained in Zion yesterday. Waterfalls coming off all the big rock faces. Couldn't hike mystery canyon, had to do angel's landing. Not many people went up in the rain.

You sound good, all things considered. You said once that it was "getting from here to there" that was hard. It looks like you are somewhere in the middle, and it looks like you will make it.

SS

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks so much, SS. Most of the time I'm okay.

OM has his daughter this weekend, so I wouldn't be surprised to hear from the sparrow, wanting to come over and get more stuff. But I don't want her coming here this weekend. It's my weekend too, and I don't want it to suck just because OM is unavailable for carousing with my wife.

I'd love to do Angels' Landing in the rain! I caught a few drops when I was up there but, nothing much.

Next time I'm out there I'm going to make it a mountain biking trip.

GC