My wife of 28 years has over the past year developed a internet (complete with voice hookup) relationship with another man. She sits up almost all night talking while I'm in bed.

Should I treat this as an affair? Should I separate unless she stops (she says she will not loose his friendship under any circumstances).

Should I work deligently to try to meet her needs while she carries on this way?

Advice is appreciated (new to MB).

GM,

Wanted to reply. I know how it is for a new guy to wait after they post. I only wish I had some good advice for you. All I can say is I shared your pain. My STBX also entered into an Internet/webcam affair after 15 years of marriage, then became phone affair (more than $1000 in charges over 3 months), and then he flew here for a four day tryst with my wife.

We are now in divorce court.

Not a good story.

I hope yours turns out better. I would start the Plan A now, immediately. Try to get into counseling. My STBX quit counseling when the MC told her she had to give up OM to work on marriage.

Good luck, wanted to bounce this up for the real experts. Regretably, your story is not rare.

W wants me to accept him as a "friend" and be one, big happy group. She says OM W accepts her as a friend and doesn't understand why I feel "threatened".

There has only been one face-to-face meeting, no sex.

Any advice?

GG,

My W of 18 years started an internet chatroom chat with the OM, 2 1/2 years ago. Went to phone calls, and then a full blown PA around Jan of 2003. Dday was 05/13/04. Totally ended the A and NC and now we are trying to re-connect, rebuild, etc, etc, ad infinitum.

Doesn't ever seem to be innocent.

My only positive comment would be;

Is your W willing to show all the emails going back to the start of the "communique"? And give you her password? and be able to talk to the om and his W and maybe you can all play bridge together on certain nights?

Then it would seem as innocent as she states.

In "Not Just Friends" the author says any discussions you would have with the opposite sex that you would be uncomfortable with your spouse knowing about is the start of that slippery slope.

(the author actually says it much better than I did)

For what that is worth.

k

Yes this is an affair, an emotional one which can be just as damaging as a physical affair. Some WS's try to justify their acts and say it is just a friendship, but if it is starting to effect your M then it is not a friendship and needs to be delt with. Read everything you can on this website and keep posting. Starting with Plan A is your best bet. Do you know anything about the OM? If he is M then you need to expose this relationship to his wife. If you think your W's family has any influence over her, then it would help to expose to them as well. Just tell them the facts and stress that you want to save your M.

Have you seen Dr. Harley's articles on this issue? Perhaps some of this might be helpful to share with your wife? I cut and pasted 3 of the letters from the article that might be helpful.

Here's a link:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5028_qa.html
************************
Dear Dr. Harley,
I am so happy to have found your web site, sometimes I get into such a state of despair regarding my marriage. I do not want to lose my wife. We have five daughters and I love my wife with all my heart.

Here is my problem... My wife escapes into this world of chats to receive fulfillment. And I found out that she has an "online-lover" for the lack of a better term. She has never met him or seen him, she doesn't even know what he looks like but she needs to talk with him. She doesn't have cybersex or anything like that... they just talk.

I am so torn on what to do... My first instincts are of course to ask her to give us a chance and stop with him... In your terminology it seems that he is the one that's getting to stick credits into her love bank, not me. One of the things that she expresses is that "She doesn't know if she believes in marriage anymore". The idea that 2 people can live in love for a lifetime. She basically uses the argument that "Who do we know that are happily married". To be honest... I don't have a good answer for that, all I can tell her is that there are millions of couples that love and cherish each other for a lifetime.

Can you help give me some insight or suggestions on how to handle this situation. I am not fighting with her.. and I am not withdrawn.. I try to support her and tell her how much I love her.

I am so sad... I love her so much....

H.B.


Dear H.B.,
Love on the Internet is becoming an epidemic. But the bottom line is that you were not your wife's best friend before she began using the chatline. A cyber-friend has taken your place, and you can be grateful that it's not the man next-door.

The state of withdrawal that your wife is in is not permanent. She will slip into the state of conflict once in a while, and when she does, she will explain to you how you've failed to meet her emotional needs -- for conversation, affection, honesty and openness, and other needs. She will also give you a chance to meet those needs. That's when you can start depositing love units.

What is it about her Internet friend that she finds so captivating? What does she talk to him about that she can't talk to you about? Perhaps it's as simple as being there whenever she wants to talk. Perhaps she feels he admires her, respects her, and finds her interesting. He gives her his undivided attention for hours each week. You need to learn as much as you can about this friend and see if you can meet the same needs yourself.

The thoughts she has about divorce are more like brainstorming than plans for the future. She does not have much to look forward to in her relationship with you, and she is thinking of alternatives. Make sure that her future with you will be just as fulfilling as her future would be with her fantasy friend. Learn how to make it turn out that way. Encourage her to teach you. And when you've figured it out, keep it up for the rest of your lives together.



Dear Dr. Harley,
I've been married for two years and have known my wife for almost ten years total. Several months ago I met a woman online. What started out as an interesting and casual correspondence has now become a highly emotional, rewarding and sexual relation. We exchange as many as 15 e-mails a day and have spoken on the phone several times. This woman lives in another country, so the chances of meeting her are in general quite slim, but she will be traveling to my area quite soon and we have discussed getting together.

I know it's wrong and I know it could destroy my marriage which I feel is a good one -- I love my wife and would never want to do anything to hurt her. Yet I feel absolutely compelled to meet this woman -- I simply have to see her. I'm completely torn at this point and emotionally frayed at the edges. Any suggestions?

S.R.


Dear S.R.,
You're right when you say, "it could destroy my marriage." E-mail romances are common and have ruined many marriages. As with most affairs, once the relationship gets real, it falls apart, but many marriages are already lost by the time that happens.

Affairs are addictions, both in real life and on the Internet. But the bottom line is that you must completely sever your relationship with this woman, as difficult as it will be for you to do. Even though you feel compelled to meet her, don't let the relationship go any farther than it already has.

You are addicted to this Internet woman because she meets your most important emotional needs. It's important for you to understand what she is doing that your wife should do for you. You're still in love with your wife because she meets some of your emotional needs, but the other woman meets other needs. That's why you love them both.

The solution is simple: Have your wife meet the needs met by the Internet woman. My book His Needs, Her Needs: Building and Affair-proof Marriage, explains how. If you feel depressed about it all (and you probably will), consider asking your doctor to prescribe an anti-depressant. It may sound extreme to you for me to suggest medication, but it's a lot better than your wrecking what you and your wife have and will have for the future. As soon as you sever ties with your Internet lover, you will probably feel an overwhelming sense of loss. But it only lasts a few weeks, and an anti-depressant helps relieve those symptoms of withdrawal.

You are certainly on the right track to recognize your Internet relationship as a compulsion. It is a compulsion, and the sooner you can get out of it, the better. Then, learn to add to your marriage what it is that you are missing. It will help prevent you from getting into a mess like this in the future.


Dear Dr. Harley,
My wife and I have been married for 9 years. We were very happy for a long time until our first son was born, at least that's when I can remember that everything started to go downhill. We now have another child. We have had lots of ups and down. But lately it has been more down than up.

About a year ago I was really stupid and started an affair with a woman on-line. My wife since found out about it and I have cut all connections with the other woman. But now my wife is doing the same thing. She spends most of her day on the computer talking to the guys in the sex rooms on the IRC.

It's really starting to drive me crazy. I confronted her about it, and she told me she was sorry and that she would stop. Well that was about three month ago, she didn't stop. The only thing she did was try to prevent me from finding out. Now she will get on-line and talk until just before I come home for lunch, then turn the computer off. After I leave, to go back to work she gets back on-line, again until just before I get home and turn the computer off again.

I don't know how to deal with this situation. What should I do?

C.G.


Dear C.G.,
You and your wife are not meeting each other's emotional needs. And it probably started right after your first child was born. All the pressures of life have prevented you from taking the time to reach each other emotionally, and bond with each other. With that vacuum, you are both vulnerable to others who will meet your needs.

The Internet is a great place to find people who are willing to help you with almost anything. If your emotional needs are not being met, there are literally thousands of people on the Internet that are willing to try to meet them for you. Both you and your wife have figured that out by now.

To inoculate yourselves from Internet affairs, you must simply meet each others emotional needs. Take the same amount of time that brought you together in the first place, about 15 hours each week, to give each other your undivided attention. Get out of the house away from your children and away from friends. Spend time together that gives you distraction-free opportunities to be honest, loving and caring toward each other, the way people are on the Internet. It's not just sex that your wife wants on the Internet. Its the attention she receives. Don't give her an excuse to go to the Internet to get the attention she should be getting from you.

I only have one small thing to add. The comment that the OM's W is "ok" with this relationship. I highly doubt it.
My WH sid that in the beginning too. He said "OW's H is fine with us. After all - he only wants her to be happy and he knows that she is happy with me. Why can't you be that way too? Why don't you want what is best for me?"

I carried that with me for weeks. Then - on day - the OW's husband called me. I asked him how come he was fine with the whole thing. He exploded. HUH? he said. Who told you that?
Turns out - he was never ok with it. He had lsot the weight - couldn't sleep - you name it.
I still am not sure, to this day, if the OW told my H that, just to make him think things wee ok. Or, if my H said that to me just t make me some how "get over it".

Perhaps you could ask yoour WW if you can call this OM's w. Might be an eye-opener.

IF the other wife is actaully OK with this whole mess, my next question would be this: What is the matter with this man that his own W doesn't even care enough about him to be jealous?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Should I treat this as an affair? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does it feel like an affair to you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Should I separate unless she stops </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps, at some point, but not right now. It would just fuel her affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Should I work deligently to try to meet her needs while she carries on this way?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Read the articles on the main page regarding how affairs start and Plan A. Start working on this stuff now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> W wants me to accept him as a "friend" and be one, big happy group. She says OM W accepts her as a friend and doesn't understand why I feel "threatened".

There has only been one face-to-face meeting, no sex.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Were you there for the face to face meeting? Does her current behavior give you reason to believe this is true? What is your source as far as OM W's feelings? Your W?! I think you may need a bit more info about the situation.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is your W willing to show all the emails going back to the start of the "communique"? And give you her password? and be able to talk to the om and his W and maybe you can all play bridge together on certain nights?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">krusht nailed it here. You may just want to ask your W if you can see all the emails that they had back and forth. Her response will answer your questions........one way or the other.

Start reading/digesting the info on the main page.

If you have any questions, post them and someone will help out.

Good Luck!

Ethan

GG
I have been a longtime lurker and felt compelled to reply to you....
Once Upon a Time..I was your wife. I met a man in a chatroom online and started what was an 18 month long "friendship". I talked to him at all cost...staying up late, after my husband and children went to bed. I emailed him all day long, forgoing any contact with my "real life" friends.
I had my parents watch my children as I snuck off to another state to meet him. He was single then,
He is now my husband, we will celebrate our 2nd anniversary next week. I have never been happier.

I have many regrets as to how this all transpired, I have incredible guilt over what I did to my ex-husband. Have I learned from this? You betcha I have. My parents have disowned me over my behavior, siding with my ex.

Your wife is getting something from this man that you arent providing, you need to figure what it is...real fast.

I had many online "friends"...mainly women who were all addicted to some man online. Face it and online man is perfect...there is no work involved, no laundry, no belching , just lots of ego building ..both ways..

I don't know where I really wanted to go with this except to say my take is this an EA...and if they've actually met ...I'm sure it may be more than that.

I appreciate the input from all, it helps a lot. Please keep it up.

I am (and have been for about 2 months) in Plan A. Sometimes we seem to be making progress, at other times we seem like we're going backwards. Much prayer has helped me get over most angry outbursts, now I just have the constant hurt from losing my best friend since I was in my teens.

Okay, here's where I need more advice. W has said she's going to see OM in 2 weeks. She wants me to go with her, but she will go without me if I don't go.

Should I go? If so, what should I do when we get there? BTW - I am SURE there has been NO PA up to this point, just talk-a-thons.

To KRUSHT - No, she will not give me her password.

To Ms. Scarecrow - I appreciate your insight, having "been my wife". What was it that your chat guy was providing that your husband wasn't?

Thanks again, everyone.

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: GEORGIA GUY ]</small>

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: GEORGIA GUY ]</small>

To WOMANOFFAITH5: If I go on this trip, I hope to ask OMW first-hand how she feels about her husband sitting up all night talking to my wife.

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: GEORGIA GUY ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, here's where I need more advice. W has said she's going to see OM in 2 weeks. She wants me to go with her, but she will go without me if I don't go.

Should I go? If so, what should I do when we get there? BTW - I am SURE there has been NO PA up to this point, just talk-a-thons.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Georgia Guy - I'm not sure that YOU "get it" yet. If there was a previous face-to-face contact, then you cannot be sure that there was no sex...you are taking your wife's "word" on this as truth. I'm sorry, but I don't believe her.

She wants me to go with her, but she will go without me if I don't go.

THIS one "little statement" tells you, and me, where her priorities are....and they are NOT with you. Can we say the word "camoflage" together? IF you go with her they will be on their "best behavior" to get you to let down your guard and "trust them." Other Men usually do NOT have fiery red skin, a tail, and horns sticking out of their heads....they are personable and friendly....in order to get what THEY want.

"....forsaking ALL others and keeping myself only unto you until death do us part."

I don't know if that, or something similar, was a part of your wedding vows, but if it was it is obvious that your wife no longer thinks she should "keep her promise."

I also don't know the dynamics of your marriage but I will say that you cannot let fear paralyze you now. Now is the time for action.

Her, "I'm going to do what I want whether you like it or not," attitude is the revealing thing. She is justifying and rationalizing her destructive and disrespectful activities and trying to make you feel like the "bad guy" in all of this. The sole purpose of which is to get to be the cakeeater she wants to be. She wants BOTH of you right now....but before long you won't even be in the picture.

The first thing you might want to consider is to actually call the OM's wife and tell her that you are very concerned about the growing depth of conversations between her husband and your wife, and ask her what she knows and thinks about their relationship. She may not even be aware of their conversations, the planned meeting, etc. Or she may be being fed a line of bull about "friendship" the same way your wife is trying to get you let down your guard.

One of the key things that must be done is to "expose" an affair. Believe NOTHING your wife tells you about this relationship or the Other Man's wife because lying is also a natural part of all affairs. And you can rest assured that even if you are right and they have not physically consummated their Emotional Affair, they ARE in an Emotional Affair, or at least your wife is, and it is only a matter of time before your wife succumbs to the "next step" in the "friendship."

The next thing to consider is to have a loving discussion with your wife where you convey to her that there is no room in your marriage for a 2nd man or a 2nd woman, and seek her agreement on this. It is highly INAPPROPRIATE for a married woman to take a TRIP to meet a man who is NOT her husband. Period. She needs to stay home.

My guess is that she will react negatively to this because she IS in an affair, even if she is trying to convince herself that they are "just friends." IF she will not cancel her plans and sticks to "I'm going whether you come along or not" then you know that she does not "place you above anyone else" and will do whatever she thinks she wants to do....and that includes sex with the OM as he "comforts her and tells her how 'unreasonable' and 'controlling' and 'manipulating' you are."

GG, this IS an affair and the OM is your ENEMY. You need to KNOW that and believe it. If you choose to go along, and if you cannot "get through to your wife to STAY HOME," then by all means GO with and be with her 24 hours a day. Don't let her out of your sight. Take the cell phones away so you can "avoid distractions." Do NOT meet with the OM unless his wife is also present. Get her(the OM's wife) internet account and her phone number so you can "stay in contact" with her.

In short, use the trip to gather information, because you are going to need it. But do NOT allow your wife to "just run out" for something or to send you out for "this or that." The purpose of such action is so that she can be alone and can contact the OM in secret.

I know it may sound harsh, but you have a huge problem in your marriage staring you right in the face and now you need to ACT to protect your wife and marriage. Simply accept that you will be met with resistance, anger, accusations like "you don't trust me!," etc.. Those are some of the common and normal reactions a Wayward Spouse uses to manipulate you into letting them do what they want to do, to try to shift the "blame" to you.

If it does not end now, also consider putting a stealth keylogger program on the computer. That will allow you to see exactly what they are talking about in their emails. But be warned, you will likely get confirmation of their affair and read things that are very hurtful to you. No one carries on hours of conversation with someone day after day after day after week after week after week after month after month after month into the wee hours of the night "just because they are only 'friends.'"

You know it, I know it, we all know it.

Started out, perhaps with her Need for Conversation, but that's just the initial bait that used. She is spiraling in deeper and deeper and your marriage is about to become another gutted fish tossed on the shore to be sacrificed on the altar of "selfishness and self-centeredness"...."if it feels good, do it!"

Bye bye to right and wrong.

GG, since you love your wife, hitch up your pants, tighten your belt, and start tackling the hard work of saving your marriage.

God bless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
<strong> [QUOTE]

I also don't know the dynamics of your marriage but I will say that you cannot let fear paralyze you now. Now is the time for action.

I know it may sound harsh, but you have a huge problem in your marriage staring you right in the face and now you need to ACT to protect your wife and marriage. Simply accept that you will be met with resistance, anger, accusations like "you don't trust me!," etc.. Those are some of the common and normal reactions a Wayward Spouse uses to manipulate you into letting them do what they want to do, to try to shift the "blame" to you.

If it does not end now, also consider putting a stealth keylogger program on the computer. That will allow you to see exactly what they are talking about in their emails. But be warned, you will likely get confirmation of their affair and read things that are very hurtful to you. No one carries on hours of conversation with someone day after day after day after week after week after week after month after month after month into the wee hours of the night "just because they are only 'friends.'"

You know it, I know it, we all know it.

Started out, perhaps with her Need for Conversation, but that's just the initial bait that used. She is spiraling in deeper and deeper and your marriage is about to become another gutted fish tossed on the shore to be sacrificed on the altar of "selfishness and self-centeredness"...."if it feels good, do it!"

Bye bye to right and wrong.

GG, since you love your wife, hitch up your pants, tighten your belt, and start tackling the hard work of saving your marriage.

God bless. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a FWW I completely and totally agree wtih ForeverHers. He is right- NOW is the time to act.

^^^Bump^^^

Georgia Guy - What's been happening?

Okay, latest update....

She is going for sure. I met with the person who is giving me much needed spiritual advice (I am a Christian) for other input. We both agreed the best thing is for me to go and assure no PA takes place. Otherwise, I think the results may have been assured. However, no LB will be the challenge for me.

WW and I had a discussion (more like a negotiation) of the ground rules. We agreed that she will only be with OM in a public place, and me, WW, OM, & OMW will spend time together talking. I plan to get to the bottom of how accepting she really is.

Any other comments?

I know many of you started where I now am.

To Bob Pure...how would Plan A apply in this situation?

Thanks to all.

(I am a Christian)

Georgia Guy - Excellent! How about your wife?

Okay, a little more background. (Sorry it's so long).

We are both committed Christians. I had rough teen years, she met me and, through her, I gave my life to the Lord at age 20, not long before we got married.

We have raised 2 boys, both now married. Both are excellent kids with wonderful wives. We have been truly blessed, and have always been considered an "examplary" family in every way. I am a professional and has been blessed monetarily without having to sacrifice time with my family.

About a year ago, WW began corresponding, via chat room, with OM 3,000 miles from here (Canada). I was not overly concerned, seemed like a harmless friendship. This grew to become an almost obsession, now via telephone and internet voice (I still don't know how to do that). Anytime I'm not home, or when I'm in bed, WW and OM are talking with each other. WW still sees this as a "friendship" and I'm a jealous husband. She says OMW is okay with everything, why can't I be the same?

However, in the last year she has begun to drop bomb-shells like she has never loved me, been miserable since we got married, our marriage was a mistake, ad nauseum....

But OM "understands me perfectly". Unfortunately, when I thought this was just a "friendship", I took her to meet him. Big mistake, that just seemed to put real fuel on the fire and ignite the situation.

So now, we find ourselves going back Oct. 15-19 for another visit. That brings us up to date.

I really need the support of you on-line folks. I tried counseling until the counselor just recommended that I leave her. I think he didn't know what to make of the whole thing. He said if my choice was to stay with her, I needed to "quit complaining".

Truth is...we've been together 28 years, she is the mother of my children, always been my best friend, and ANYTHING we've done, we've done it together. She's never really had "girl friends", and I've never really had "guy friends". It's just been us.

BTW - I've about made it out of the anger and panic stage. However, I fight regularly if I should just throw in the towel and find another wife. Sad, but true..

Again, all input much appreciated and needed. I can keep you all appraised as the visit approaches, takes place, and unfolds.

Georgia Guy - Thank you so much for the additional information. There is no doubt that there is a serious affair going on. If there has been any time where the two of them could have been together alone, it is quite possible that it has moved from an Emotional Affair to a Physical Affair.

However, I am interested in pursuing this "I'm going whether you go or not" statement of your wife. If there is ANY way to prevent the trip, I would strongly advocate for that position. Short of that, my previous comments hold even more true.

Your wife is NEVER to be alone, and most certainly not alone with the OM, no matter what she might say to try to "disarm" you, you must be firm in your decision to always accompany her wherever she might go.

You MUST also be in contact with the OM's wife and you must find out "her side of the story." It is exceedingly possible that she does not know what has been going on and that your wife is making statements of "she has never loved me, been miserable since we got married, our marriage was a mistake." Those ARE hallmark statements of an affair and they do NOT get that far with reciprocal statements and support from the OM.

Next, loving intervention is needed desperately. Joint Christian Marital Counseling is a must. I don't know where you live, but I will give you a link to the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors and you can search their website for counselors in your area.

NANC Website

You need to remain in a strong Plan A, but you also have to dealing with her sin against God. I don't know if you have a Pastor who is a strong proponent of obedience to Scripture, but if you do, a Matthew 18:15-20 intervention seems to be needed.

Your wife has been sliding into sin against God and against you, and it needs to be confronted. Yes, given her current state of mind, she will likely react negatively and with anger, but this is no time for meek or cowardly behavior. Too much is at stake her to allow obvious sin to go without challenge.

I have a couple of pamphlets that might be of help to you. If you'd like them, drop me a note at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com and I will email them to you.

God bless and give you His wisdom and strength during this extremely trying time.

^^Bump^^

Georgia Guy - What's the latest?